SPEAKER_01 0:04

We know you and Chris love the deep end.

SPEAKER_04 0:10

Greetings and salutations and welcome to Hack or Slash. If you're joining us again, welcome back. Come on in and stay a while. If this is your first time listening, welcome to the party. We are a horror movie review podcast dedicated to telling you whether a movie is a hack, a total joke, a waste of time, or a slash.

SPEAKER_00 0:27

Totally killer. Unintended.

SPEAKER_04 0:29

We believe horror is for everyone, and as such, we're rating these movies with the perspective we've gained from our varying walks of life and the flavors of fear we fancy most. My name is Chris, I'm your friendly neighborhood slasher enthusiast. This week I'm joined by the Superfly Space Guy Mac, Hola Muchachos, the Gore Lover Alexis, hey everyone, and the cowardly creeper Ryan. Hello. We have a new one for you this week, this time, a film that was impacted by theater closings due to COVID-19. This film was originally slated to release in April of 2020, but was instead released for rental just five months later. Before we get down to business though, we have some follow-up.

SPEAKER_00 1:04

We asked our social media followers if they preferred the 1980 version of Maniac or the 2012 remake. 67% preferred the original, and 33% liked the remake.

SPEAKER_01 1:15

I'm so intrigued by this. Everyone hates the remake on online. Everyone's just talking trash.

SPEAKER_04 1:19

Yeah, I've seen a lot of hateful comments for it, actually. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:23

I'm not surprised that it went this way, as I'm not a fan of either one in particular, but it is kind of interesting that the OG scored a perfect two-thirds. It's kind of interesting. But first, quick shout out to Gabriel for sending us facts about a real life serial killer who had a thing from mannequins. We're gonna share that link in the show notes, so check it out.

SPEAKER_04 1:42

So creepily interesting. Good old Gabriel coming through with the facts and the research. I love it.

SPEAKER_00 1:47

We also have a new patron this week. So thank you, Dwight. We very much appreciate you. We really are grateful for our listeners, and we have a few comments about Maniac from a couple other patrons. Daniel shared, oh my god, I just re-watched these since I haven't seen them in years. I forgot how gnarly the remake is. I definitely prefer the remake. I've never really seen anything else with Elijah Woods in it that I can recall, so I can only picture him as this evil psychopath. Truly terrifying.

SPEAKER_01 2:15

I'm sorry, never seen Lord of the Rings?

SPEAKER_04 2:17

I mean, maybe. Maybe he's seen Lord of the Rings now, but hadn't seen Lord of the Rings prior to seeing the new mania.

SPEAKER_01 2:23

Maybe, but what is life like not seeing Lord of the Rings? I don't know. I actually love Lord of the Rings. Yeah, no idea. It was such a moment in time, you know.

SPEAKER_00 2:31

Up next, Dave also shared, we must be getting older and far more jaded because we just re-watched the remake and were wholly underwhelmed. Definitely a hack from us. Even the gore left us cold.

SPEAKER_02 2:43

Whoa.

SPEAKER_00 2:44

It also left those bodies cold.

SPEAKER_02 2:45

Yeah, truly. That's crazy. I would think there's so much good gore in that. I would not be cold, uh, but I wouldn't say hot because that would be kind of weird.

SPEAKER_00 2:55

Yeah, I'm a very sensitive person. You know, all my senses you need to you need to be soft and subtle with everything. I don't know. Anyway, he went on to say, the original was my first ever Betamax rental way back in 1982. I've never been what you'd call a huge fan of it in general, but it does have some heart and of course incredible effects from the maestro. The remake just feels vapid. In my opinion, Wood was horrendously miscast. Also, some infuriating moments of stupidity from characters that could be forgiven in the original. The girl in the tube clearly has a cell phone, so why not call 911 while running for the best part of five minutes? There was ample distance between her and Frank. Stuff like this, as well as Max, thank you. Very astute observation about the audio really took us out of the experience. Finally, the effects. Considering this is the same team who worked Gory Wonders on the Hills Have Eyes remake, the effects here really didn't land for us at all. One, thanks for the shout-out. And two, thank you for the amazing thoughts.

SPEAKER_01 3:53

Yeah, that's pretty green. It's hard to argue with much of that, you know? We can all have different opinions, but that's a good point.

SPEAKER_04 3:58

Absolutely, and I can't wait to see what Dave and the rest of Nova Cascade has up their sleeves for the next few movies we have. Now let's focus on what we have this week. This week we have a film starring Janelle Monet portraying a woman fighting for her life. The film's description reads, and I'm gonna say this very specifically, because this movie's pretty interesting. Successful author Veronica Henley finds herself trapped in a horrifying reality and must uncover the mind-bending mystery before it's too late. Now, marketing for this film has certainly been mysterious, right? It depicts two very different timelines. We see Monet's character in present day, but then we also see images of plantation slavery during the Civil War. This week, we're talking about the newly released antebellum. We do want to know up front that while the four of us have varying lived experiences, we can only speak from those specific experiences, none of which are connected to the trauma and horrors that unfold in this film. We'll be reviewing the film from our perspectives, yes, but we also want richer context. We want to dig deeper to look at how black representation in horror has evolved from the early 1900s to what we see today in antebellum. Earlier today, I was joined by a guest named Jasmine who has focused her entire life's work on diversity, equity, and inclusion. Together we unpack the shutter documentary Horror Noir, A History of Black Horror, and discuss our early impressions of antebellum. We also discuss how black representation in horror has historically mirrored our society and how that has ultimately shaped our present. We made our conversation a companion piece to this episode, so our listeners can dive deeper with us. It's available now, entirely free, on our Patreon. You can find the link down in our show notes. Now, this movie just released on September 18th and it's available to rent on major streaming platforms. It's been met with fairly rough ratings, so we'll see how this shakes out. Now, as I mentioned earlier, this was supposed to release earlier this year, and it was marketed in theaters last year. Had any of you seen the trailers or marketing videos beforehand?

SPEAKER_02 5:55

So I have discerned that I think I've seen some of the teasers, but not I didn't see like the full-length trailer. That kind of was my experience too. And then it recently was like, oh, really? What what is this movie about? And I don't typically watch the trailers, I just jump into the movie because most of the movies cut we kind of review. I have some sort of I like know where it's coming from. This one I was like, okay, watched half of it because I was with my coworker who is like extremely afraid of scary movies, and it seemed like crazy. Not it it was pretty interesting to say the least.

SPEAKER_00 6:27

I think I may have seen the teaser and the full trailer, but I do remember seeing the full trailer at some point, and it definitely piqued my interest. One huge fan of Janelle Monet, like wow. I remember way back in the day somebody sharing I think one of her original albums with me, and every time a new album dropped, I was like immediately download. I need this in my life right now. So to see her in a film, I was very excited from that trailer.

SPEAKER_01 6:52

Dude, same. I was such a Janelle Monet fan. Front and center. I was I was here for it all the time.

SPEAKER_04 6:57

I love that. Alexis, I actually remember this is another one of those movies I first saw the trailer for. Sitting next to you in the theater, waiting to watch a movie that we're covering on the podcast.

SPEAKER_02 7:08

So interesting. Yeah, but it's crazy because it feels like so long ago. Yeah. And I think when I even saw the trailer from the other day, it said like March or something. Um, or it was like some, yeah, I was like, oh wow, this is supposed to come out a long time ago. But I'm glad it did. I'm glad there's some some new theatrical releases, air quotes uh for that.

SPEAKER_04 7:28

Uh no, absolutely. I agree with that. And I think even when we first saw it, it was just the clip of a woman running in a field. It wasn't even the full trailer yet. Like this was very early on in this film's marketing. I saw the full trailer later, and then the film markets itself as having a very big twist. We'll we'll get to that in just a minute. But I will say that it did create this expectation for me of a very specific twist. Like after just like looking at the trailer, looking at the marketing materials, I was like, all right, I have a feeling I know where this is going. I'm not gonna say whether I was right or wrong, and just to preserve any sense of that for you folks, but if you're listening to this episode right now and you think you might be intrigued in watching it, do not watch any of the marketing material. Do not watch the trailer. What were you folks expecting?

SPEAKER_01 8:14

I I don't know what I was expecting going in. And I also don't know if I could have ever expected what I got anyway. I think the marketing material that they release is very intentional and very uh specific. And the teasers and like you get certain things out of it, but it I didn't know what to go into this with.

SPEAKER_02 8:35

I can speak for Ryan for one second. Um, because I was watching the meet with her, and both of us were like had these feelings, like we wouldn't expect ourselves to get so spooked by this movie, and we were thought it was gonna be like terrifying. Yeah. And the the we had all the lights off, and we should we were both like, oh my gosh, we're about to be scared. So that was at least my expectation. I was really um expecting to see some sort of like crazy, like horror movie that it's like psychological and very dark and you know, just and intense.

SPEAKER_00 9:08

It's funny that you say psychological because that's what I was expecting. Mind-bending, I think, was a great term because watching the trailer, that's what I was really going into this movie with was this was gonna be a mind-bending roller coaster. And I really didn't know what to expect other than that. I think when you first see the trailer, hopefully, again, if you haven't seen it, you're not gonna watch it, just watch the movie. But as you're watching this, like put away trying to figure out you know what's going to happen, who's gonna do what. Just like sit back and watch the film play out. Because I think I went into it with this expectation of like, I'm not gonna understand what's happening, it's gonna be so wild and so crazy. And you just really have to just let the film play out, watch it. And I I really, while while in that mode, I was just kind of like, I get way more out of it. I kind of wish I didn't watch the trailer, Chris. I don't know about you.

SPEAKER_01 10:01

I fully agree that you shouldn't go in trying to figure out what's going on and you should just let it happen to you.

SPEAKER_04 10:05

Yeah, I think a lot of people like to be the people who have things figured out from the get-go.

SPEAKER_01 10:10

Me.

SPEAKER_04 10:11

However, I think this is definitely one of those that you should just experience. Mac, I agree with you. I wish I hadn't seen anything beyond the initial marketing teaser that we got in theaters. And even then, I will say that while I expected a twist, it still did really good things to throw me off of that twist. So we're gonna talk about the story structure in the second half when we can actually break things down for real, for real. But it still did a good job, or I didn't feel like I was bored or like, oh, I called this 100%. I didn't feel any of that. I just was so wrapped up in Janelle Monet and the characters in this story and the horrors that were unfolding that I didn't want to sit there and try to figure things out. I just wanted to experience it.

SPEAKER_00 10:55

It it really is like a puzzle while you're putting things together along the film because it's got all these small pieces that link together throughout the film. And I think that was my favorite part while watching it is that all these tiny little pieces tie in so well together and it like adds up to this really great summary. So you can sit there and like try to play detective and everything. And I think when we're watching it, that's really the experience I had was like I'm trying to put together each each little piece to figure out exactly what's going on in the film, exactly what we're we're building up to. But even if you're not trying, like it's just it's gonna flood into your mind a little bit. So it was such an interesting experience to see like each little thread come together throughout the film.

SPEAKER_02 11:38

I will say those are not very obvious ones. Um I think until you see a certain point of the movie, some stuff connects. And um, but I don't know, I would be really interested in watching it again. Like I think it has a really good rewatch value, in my opinion. So you can pick up on that sort of stuff.

SPEAKER_04 11:56

It's a good thing then that you can rent this instead of having to pay 10 bucks every single time you want to go to the theater, you know, pay 20 bucks, rent it, and you have access to it. Amazon lied to me, told me that we had 24 hours to watch this movie. Turns out it's still the regular 48 hours.

SPEAKER_01 12:12

Oh I would like to note, I'm a big fan of the releases at home, like especially the way me and Alexis watched it in luxury. Okay. It's it was it was prime uh TV watching. Like that was maybe the largest TV I've ever seen in my life. And like full recliners, blankets.

SPEAKER_04 12:31

Was it like Dolby Atmos except cozier?

SPEAKER_01 12:34

Yes, no vibrating seats. But that'd be weird if there were. Yes, it would.

SPEAKER_02 12:38

I would have questions. I would question my parents, really.

SPEAKER_01 12:41

But it was an experience. I am such a fan of the releases at home, and I just wish everybody would do it. I wish we could watch Candyman. That's basically my point.

unknown 12:50

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 12:51

With that being said, while I was watching this movie, I was overwhelmed. That was like my biggest feeling. And I don't think I really spent a lot of time trying to put it together until it came to the point where things came together. I really was just a part of the experience and trying to roll with it. But a lot of things are overwhelming in this movie. And and I spent a lot of time thinking, why? Why am I why is this how? What is what do I do here? Because that's that's what you get out of this in some parts for sure.

SPEAKER_02 13:26

Yeah, super intense. I mean, you saw me, I was like, I can't watch this. Like it was, you know, totally, I mean, just sometimes a little too much, very overwhelming and intense. And and I think there's this intensity of especially at the beginning, and then you're just like, okay, cool. Um, like, can I get a release?

SPEAKER_04 13:43

You know, okay, cool. This is not cool. Please let me go.

SPEAKER_02 13:48

Exactly how he felt, I'm pretty sure. And then we were also like, but WTF, WTF, like, yeah. It was such an experience watching it from that's all I have to say. That's why how I felt while watching was great in a sense that I was watching it with a really good friend.

SPEAKER_00 14:04

It does really build something within you while watching this. Like, you, if you're not speaking during this movie, you're gonna have like so much stuff just like built up within you that you cannot wait to just like explode out into the world. There's so many thoughts that you're going to have, and you have to share them. And I think that's kind of the point of the film. But you legitimately like I don't know, while watching this, I had so many moments of just like frustration, not with the film, but like what's happening in the film. And I like, I'm sitting there with my girlfriend, and we're like screaming while watching this. We're screaming out on the characters' behalf. We like can't help it because we're just like these moments of how, no, this is horrible. I can't stand it. And it just it's really intense, and it's really uh something that's meant to spark discussion.

SPEAKER_01 14:51

I fully agree. And this is uh just to be upfront, not the easiest podcast I think we've ever recorded. And I hope that our conversation can can be helpful for those people that watch this movie and listen to this podcast and part of the discussion, you know. You know, there's not everybody isn't gonna watch this and there's not always gonna be someone to talk to. That's what we're trying to be here.

SPEAKER_04 15:13

Absolutely. You're right, you're right though. If you don't have someone to talk through this with, it's definitely a lot to hold inside, right? Like, so I watched this alone, trying to squeeze it in within that what I thought was a 24-hour rental period. My girlfriend and I were gonna watch this together, and then I was like, the complexities of renting a new release, can we watch it both from different places? Probably not. So I watched this and I took more notes on this movie than I ever have for any other movie on this podcast.

SPEAKER_01 15:42

Wow.

SPEAKER_04 15:43

And I walked away with a heavy heart and a heavy heart that I think I haven't felt as heavy since the perfection. And it's actually heavier because it's totally different from the perfection. I compare it to that in the sense that it's a horror movie that made me feel things. Look, this movie is compelling and there's so much to discuss and unpack, but the biggest thing I can say about it is that I felt more watching this than I have in a movie in a couple years, right? And I think that says a lot. That's a really solid testament to the work that was put into this. Now, obviously, this film marketed itself as having a huge twist. It said, don't ruin the twist. It was described as gonna be a mind-bending twist, but did the twist actually get you? Yes, for sure.

SPEAKER_02 16:26

Wow, for sure. That was a WTF moment. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 16:31

It didn't get me all the way because you know how I do. When I first start watching something, I start building the different paths that it might take because that's how my Android brain goes. But when it reached a moment where something was confirmed for me, it was like so satisfying. I we literally just had to just yell out, like, oh my God, when we hit that point.

SPEAKER_04 16:49

Yeah, this is one where uh the twist did not get me, but the twists and turns it took on the weight of the twist got me every step of the way. Again, I was so surprised with the way they approached the structure of their storytelling. And the way the movie opens, I didn't expect. I expected to, you know, tr go on this journey with these characters in a very specific way. And so when we started the way it did, I kind of threw all my expectations out the window. And then, you know, we we hit a different point in the movie, and it's like, oh, okay, wait, are we doing it? Are we here? And then you think you're going back, and no, you're not, and it's a wild ride. The twist itself did not get me, but the path it took to the twist really got me every step of the way. And I will say that made it for me unlike most movies I've seen. What about you?

SPEAKER_00 17:36

Chris, I could not agree more. I have not seen this film before. We have not seen this film before. You have not seen this film before, listener. This is a hundred percent an A plus in originality. This is something your brain has not consumed prior to this moment.

SPEAKER_01 17:52

I don't disagree with you. However, um there's a a the the story is original, but I don't know that the content that surrounds the story would be considered original. Um, but I mean, like you I I'm not here to take away from the originality of what they did in this movie because it it was very intentional and I've I haven't seen anything like it before.

SPEAKER_02 18:17

Yeah, I think there's themes that have been approached in especially in horror as well, um, but definitely not like a movie I've seen before.

SPEAKER_04 18:24

I would agree with that, and I think that's part of the beauty of that originality, right, Ryan? It's you know, we're not making up some wild ass story from outer space, you know what I mean? Like we're taking things that are familiar and that are real and that are happening and that have happened, and we're injecting them and infusing them in this really unique approach to storytelling. And honestly, what I think this film may do best in some ways is the tension that it fills you with and the dread that it fills you with. I don't know that this movie, it's it's even fair to talk about how scary this movie is, because it's not the traditional scariness that you would see on this podcast or other horror movie podcasts, right? This is the the frightening nature of history, of people, of humanity, and it's more like a it's more like a real world fear that you are afraid for other people. And I think that's one of the things that scared me most about the whole situation. But did were you guys scared at all?

SPEAKER_01 19:25

I think you hit the nail on the head, Chris. It's not uh this is not Saw, this is not Terrifiers, this is not Jeepers Creepers, this is not the shining, it's not it's uh uh it's psychological horror, but not in the ways that like what we're used to. And it's I I wouldn't say that I was scared at any point watching the movie, but exactly like you said, it's like you're scared of other people and for other people in a sense.

SPEAKER_02 19:53

Yeah, definitely. I couldn't, I think that's just says it completely for me. It's just like you have this like it's scary because you've seen it before, you've you know the historical context of everything, and to me that's the scary part that it's can still be reflected in like society today, which is chilling.

SPEAKER_00 20:12

I think one of the few emotions that are gonna come out of this, and it this really should come out for everybody, is obviously you you're gonna fear for the people, you're gonna feel this concern, but like empathy is the biggest thing you are going to feel while watching this film. You are going to just have your heart ripped out of your chest. And this is an experience I've had in other films where while watching it, you just you're you're absolutely crushed, and that makes you like care so much about what's going on. So anytime anything is threatening, anytime you're so concerned, it just like it hits you even more.

SPEAKER_04 20:45

I love that so much, Mac, especially since I was reading some articles interviewing the cast, right? And one of the folks who was interviewed was a woman who plays Elizabeth in this movie. And Elizabeth play is played by Jenna Malone. You may have seen her in many other things, but she talks about how important empathy is and how storytelling and how movies impact your ability to be empathetic, to see yourself in someone else's shoes. And I think that's one of the comparisons that I drew with Jasmine in in our conversation in our bonus episode. The reason why the perfection hit me so hard is not because I have ever experienced anything like the perfection, but because of the raw authenticity of their performances and just like the thing, the way that movie is constructed to make you feel, you can't help but feel for them. And I think Alexis, even you were saying that like it's not that that movie was poorly done, but at the time it was just something that you could not drive with because it was too much on like the like playing on your emotions and drawing that from you.

SPEAKER_02 21:45

Yeah, which is crazy because this is like a very similar feeling, but I kind of feel very different about the two movies.

SPEAKER_04 21:52

Yeah, no, a hundred percent. Because you I mean, like, it's not fair to say that Antumbillum and the and the perfection go together because they don't, but that is just The way that you should maybe look to approach movies in general, right? With empathy. Um, because a fundamental lack of empathy, you know, we said it in the bonus episode, I'll say it here. A fundamental lack of empathy and assumptions made based on what you've seen in the media or what you think you have seen can keep you understanding from where we really are as a society, as human beings. But when you can arm yourself with empathy, you can see things in a completely different way. And I think that is that is definitely something to prepare yourself for if you want to go watch this movie. So um obviously empathy is gonna be a very important thing to to arm yourself with before you see this movie. And I think that empathy will also impact how you see the ending and the feelings you get from the ending. How did you guys feel in terms of its success?

SPEAKER_02 22:47

I think there's, you know, there's uh the feelings I get from the beginning of the movie, you know, and I think it has to do with the pacing too, is once I reached the end, I kind of was like, that's it. If you know me, I'm all for revenge in my personal life as well as my podcasting life. And I like to see that in movies, especially when I've seen like people like there's so many injustices done, um, that I'm like, no, like it's it's eye for an eye, in my opinion. I know I'm a little too strong, but I I feel like it definitely transfers to the ending of this movie and how I felt.

SPEAKER_01 23:22

Yeah, uh Alexis was gone real hard. Okay. She really wanted certain people gone, okay. For me, I think the ending went away that it it's kind of what it needed to be, but I didn't love all aspects of it. It didn't necessarily leave me with uh feelings and maybe closure that I was hoping for. I don't know if closure is the right word, but there was just some things where I was like, I'm not sure about that.

SPEAKER_00 23:50

Okay, so this film is emotionally exhausting.

SPEAKER_01 23:54

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 23:55

And the ending for me was a very satisfying resolution. I was very happy with the way it wrapped up. Threads came together, we get some vindication, and there's just this feeling of this buildup throughout the entire movie, as if you are losing your breath and you can finally breathe.

SPEAKER_04 24:14

I 100% agree with that, Mac. The ending was something that you head to a certain point, and I started to have so much concern for one of the main characters, and to see the way that this whole thing played out, to see the little details of the realization, the gravity of what the situation was at hand, to see the resolution play out in the credits, to see all the little details that were provided that really then tied together things that happened even in the beginning of the movie, even around the 40-minute mark of the movie. It gave me everything that I wanted to feel and didn't realize I knew I wanted to feel, if that makes sense. It's it was a satisfying resolution. I see the characters do things that I I would have hoped they were able to do. And there were even some little touches in there that I felt represented things that are happening right now in our country. So we'll we'll we'll get there, we'll unpack that, we'll break all of that down. But before we start getting into the scoring of this movie, Alexis, how many people died in this film?

SPEAKER_02 25:17

We had nine deaths in this movie. Some satisfying and some horrifying.

SPEAKER_01 25:22

And how about that animal report? There are some animals in this movie that are adorable, but they're uh safe. We don't see anything happen on screen that we're sure about.

SPEAKER_04 25:31

Let's go ahead and get into our ratings then. Antebellum from 2020.

SPEAKER_02 25:34

Was it a hack or a slash? I'm just gonna go first because then I feel like if I listen to everyone's, I might change my opinion. Um I found this movie visually stunning. Um, the acting was amazing. I I mean I thoroughly enjoyed this, but there are some parts of the movie that like, I mean, the ending for me just I was like, what? Like you you drug me through this emotional roller coaster and you did you give me this kind of like a like ending that to me isn't justifiable. Um, but I don't know. I I've never been in situations that some of these characters or people in have been, so I don't know, but it's just to me wasn't it's just not an ending that I loved. And it kind of ruined the movie for me a little bit, and the pacing was a little bit off. Um I think certain points it was a little too violent for me to watch. Um, I do understand that these are real things that happened, um, and it's you know, history and it's something that needs to be presented to everyone. It's just like a little too much for me. And if I'm crying, turning my head at things, and not because, oh gosh, something's gonna pop out that's gonna scare me, but it's like truly horrifying. Like it's just a it's a I don't think turn off is uh right the right word, but it's just it just like it doesn't have my attention and focus. But um, I do give it a whole bunch of credit for just it being visually stunning and what they were trying to do. It just was not my cup of tea. So I am giving this a hack, but I think people should watch it.

SPEAKER_01 27:06

Oh, Alexis, I thought you were gonna go a different way, honestly, for a moment there. Um so I I have some similar things to say. I when I watch a movie like this, I pray that it opens the eyes for some people that don't uh one go into this expecting what they get, and then two, maybe don't feel the empathy that we've been talking about for other people. So, like, there's work for this movie to do. And um, just like Alexa said, it's shot beautifully. Um Janelle Mon Janelle Monet is incredible in this movie. Like, I I don't think you could say that enough and and fully explain how incredible she is here. Um, but the acting overall I felt like was was really great, and the characters were um very real. With that all being said, I I felt like there was a message, but it was an unclear message. Same thing about the ending. I felt like the ending had so many unsatisfying parts, and I can't wait to like fully go into that because there's some some very specific things, especially the way this movie takes us on some twists. I feel like they had they addressed a lot of things and brought a lot of things to the surface, and then the ending just kind of pretended like none of that was there. For me, this is horrific, but it's not horror. And that's again, kind of just like Alexa said, it's kind of a personal preference thing. And I I don't feel bad for giving this movie a hack. I think it was done incredibly in and still just not what I was looking for, and I don't regret watching it, and I think there's a lot to be gained from it and a lot of work to be done by it. But to me, this is not a slash for a horror movie. This is something else. This is something that needs to be watched as like, is there such a thing as like horror history? This is horror history. This is like if you take what was reality and make it into a horror movie, but again, it's not horror movies. So I don't know, it's very complicated. There's some really cool details in this movie that are maybe seemingly insignificant, but they have really good representation of the people that are in this movie and struggling through things like this and have have in the in the past and in the current times. So it's hard. It's really hard, but it's a hack.

SPEAKER_00 29:23

Well, I'm gonna say I'm glad to go third in this case. I'm gonna try to keep my diatribe short, but it's really hard for me to do that with this film. Like one of my core beliefs is in the universality of human suffering. So the idea that we all suffer and we have to recognize the suffering in others, and that we have to do our best to prevent that suffering in all cases that we can, because we have to recognize again, we all suffer and we have to stop it. We should feel the pain of others, and this movie is such a strong reminder of that. There's no way you can watch this without feeling your heartstrings ripped off the fret. They're gone. It's gonna hurt watching this, and it should. Again, this is a strong reminder of truths that many of us have known and others unfortunately refuse to recognize. The themes in this film I think are actually pretty clear, and I can't wait to discuss them with you guys further when we get to the second half of the break. But the film itself, the acting was amazing, the characters were fantastic, the cinematography was beautiful, the collar grading was amazing. There were so many parts of this that I just absolutely loved. And immediately upon finishing this, I think I probably just instantly exclaimed, That's such a slash. This film deserves a watch, 20 bucks or otherwise, 30 bucks or otherwise, I don't care how much it costs. You gotta get four of your friends together, sit them on the couch and watch this film because it's that much of a slash.

SPEAKER_01 30:51

What a polarizing situation we have here.

SPEAKER_04 30:53

Really? Yeah. Mac, first off, let me just say that in the the years of our friendship, I don't think I've ever felt so close to you in the way we see things, especially with like recognizing the the suffering of others. This movie, let me just preface and say it is a 100% a slash for me. I like to feel things in horror, right? And I like to s feel things when I when I watch things. I if I'm gonna if I don't want to feel something, I'll probably watch like a rom-com. That feels like the level of absurdity where I'm like, I'm cool disconnecting from like serious topics. But that's the thing about horror, right? It is for everyone, and that means it's for everyone to digest in the way that they prefer, right? Alexis, I know you watch horror to watch bodies get hacked up uh in a you know, entertaining way. Like, su that's your thing. Puzzles and traps.

SPEAKER_02 31:39

It really is. It helps me escape my reality of uh just every day.

SPEAKER_00 31:44

The mundane.

SPEAKER_02 31:44

That is the mundane.

SPEAKER_04 31:46

Ryan, you mentioned that this isn't a horror movie for you, and I respect that opinion, but I'll just say this, right? Like we talked about the definition of several weeks back about horror what horror is. And we said that terror is the promise of pain and horror is the promise fulfilled. And this is very much that. It takes these intangible ideas that so many of us only read about, so many of us only hear about. And we have recently come to see in some other incredible films. Do you guys remember Cam and how Isamazai wanted to make a documentary and then decided to make a horror movie to reach different people? That was a brilliant movie that I think this movie did. It's still a horror movie to me. This isn't Michael Myers, sure. It's not Jason, it's not Freddy, Leatherface, Pinhead, it's none of that. But it's the horror of history, and it is the horror of people. I haven't felt so much in a in a long time. Janelle Monet carries this film, and it's not even that she is the sole good thing about it, right? Because I feel like so many times when we say the lead actor or actress carries a film, it's because the rest of the movie was trash. This wasn't that case, but she definitely stands out. And there are so many little things that I can't wait to unpack with the way the story comes together. But we're gonna get there shortly. Now, as it stands right now, Anton Bellum 2020 has two hacks and two slashes. We're just about as split as the rest of the country on this.

SPEAKER_01 33:09

To be fair, Rotten Tomatoes was on 30%. So we're actually we're giving it more benefit than the terrible internet people that rate things like that.

SPEAKER_02 33:18

It was 28% earlier.

SPEAKER_01 33:19

Oh wow, it's going down.

SPEAKER_02 33:21

It was like 16 or something, I thought the other day.

SPEAKER_00 33:24

I I looked it up after I watched it because I knew going into it what it was, and I looked it up and I started reading some of those comments. And I think if you're gonna look at a Rotten Tomato score, you have to do that after you've actually seen it and like pick apart what people are saying.

SPEAKER_01 33:36

It's like Yelp reviews, they rarely make sense.

SPEAKER_00 33:38

And a lot of a lot of the things that people were were taking away from this film, I feel like were so superficial. And I just I was like, how did you watch the same movie as me? Like you you were in the shallow end of the film. Is that what happened? You need to come into the deep end where I was.

SPEAKER_04 33:53

We'll see.

SPEAKER_01 33:54

We know you and Chris love the deep end.

SPEAKER_04 33:55

Well, there you have it, folks. Obviously, antebellum is streaming right now. It's available for rental on your major streaming platforms. We personally rented it on Amazon, so good luck on the pricing wherever you find it. Take our recommendations to heart and consider watching it. And if you do want to watch it, pause here. Join us in the second half so we can unpack it. And if you don't think you're gonna watch it, join us anyway. I'm confident this movie is gonna spark a lot of important dialogue for us. We'll see you in a bit.

SPEAKER_00 34:25

Hey there, listeners. It's Mac. 2020 has been a living hell. So double your fun this October with two episodes a week during Halloween. We're celebrating our third birthday this Halloween with an extra special episode. If you've been considering becoming a patron, we'll continue delivering bonus content covering topics we truly care about so you're getting all the goodness. No pumpkin spice necessary. Thank you to our listeners. Please enjoy and have a happy Halloween. If you find yourself giving recommendations for spooky things to watch this year, consider sharing our show.

SPEAKER_04 35:06

Welcome back, folks. You are now entering the spoiler zone for Antebellum. The 2020 film has earned two hacks and two slashes, and you shouldn't be that surprised because the internet feels even worse. We have a lot to unpack, we have a lot to get to, but before we get into the specifics of our ratings, we do have the matter of gore to attend to. Now, obviously, this is a very different kind of movie. So, Alexis, I mean, even just trying to look at this through the lens of it being a horror movie, what's the gore score?

SPEAKER_02 35:33

I mean, there are some deaths that you see, and it's I would say it's low. I'm more focused on the violence. I think that needs to be like something we talk about more than the gore, because I think we've seen a lot of movies where it gore, especially in horror, either they have it, it's not, it's it's like an integral part to like horror movies, but like in this one per se, I think of switching out gore for violence. And you know, you have the Ryan and I were like, when is this violence, especially in the first um scenes, like going to be over with? And it we're like, okay, 30 minutes probably.

SPEAKER_01 36:09

Yeah, it there's a s before we even went towards anything else.

SPEAKER_02 36:13

Yeah. And it was just very like intense, you know. There the violence that's you know, portrayed in the beginning, it's just a little crazy, and it's and I get it, it's historically accurate, but to me, it was a really kind of like exploitative a little bit for a movie. Like I said, this isn't my cup of tea. So I thought the violence was incredibly like shocking. Yes, I know that that this is something that has happened, and it's just like just not my cup of tea. And I just thought it was like, do we really have to watch all of this? It was just a little intense for me. I don't know how you guys felt about the violence in this movie.

SPEAKER_01 36:49

Yeah, I think it's definitely intense, and it's meant to be intense, it's meant to make you feel what you feel while it's happening, which is to say horrific and you feel, you know, so bad. But it it's even worse once the story comes out. Like, like how bad it feels in the beginning is tough, right? But then once the story evolves and you realize what really was happening, and that this is not just, you know, back in the Civil War times, that there's more elements to this, it gets even worse. And um, I I agree with you. There were some times where I felt like because this is not positioned as a historical movie, like something that came up in conversation was like 12 years a slave, because you don't go into it expecting to watch a movie positioning itself that way, it feels a little bit exploitative for it to go the way it goes in this movie, without having to say a million times, of course, we understand that this is a reality and that's the problem, but it is a movie and it's tough when you aren't expecting that. It is really hard to watch the beginning of this movie for sure.

SPEAKER_00 37:57

That's so interesting to me because I had different expectations because you watched it before me, I think. Because you described how hard it was to watch, I was expecting brutality on a level that I like wasn't prepared for. And so going into this, I feel like you kind of softened it a little bit for me because I mean, like you've mentioned 12 Years a Slave. You know, we I've oh my god, it's it's such an amazing film, and another film that you absolutely need to watch about the history of our country, at least if you're in the United States. And it's something where being reminded of like what people have gone through like hurts so deep and it angers you so deeply as well. And so when going into this film, I knew that it was a distinct possibility that we were gonna see that reality on film. I knew that it was it was possible we're gonna be have to kind of go through that brutality, and like you mentioned, it's very deliberate to experience this violence because we don't want to soften it. We don't want to gloss it over and say, like, it's okay, we just want you to feel a little bit better about like what has happened to people where we live. And I'm I'm glad they didn't gloss over a lot of stuff. I'm glad we got to see the brutality of man because this is what the film is about is that this these are humans doing this to other sentient humans. Like they're I mean, it's it's just I don't know, it's it's too much to talk about. So it's it's it's hard to watch, but I think it's worth it if you recognize it for what it is and truly like take it in. You truly have to recognize the suffering that other people have gone through and are going through and like feel something. I I don't think it was exploitative. I know I I know you guys like have a very valid viewpoint when it comes to that, but I feel like for me it was a level of violence that made sense for what we're we were watching story-wise.

SPEAKER_04 39:47

Yeah, I don't think you can say it any better than that, Mac. You're absolutely right. And I agree, Ryan Alexis, I I get like the opening of this movie is painful and painful, and then it just doesn't feel like it's going to end at any point. I definitely feel very similarly to Mac, but again, that's just the kind of person I am, right? Like I just, this is me. Like, if there is a mass shooting, I'm gonna be the person who reads every detail about every person who is revealed to have been killed in that because I feel like how fortunate are we to have not gone through that? And I think it's important to acknowledge those who have, but that's just a personal viewpoint. It doesn't mean that you have to watch movies that way.

SPEAKER_01 40:24

Yeah, and Alexis and I are decidedly different in that way where we we go towards horror to avoid feeling things. Yeah. And and that's I think where our feelings come in from this. So it's not even so much a reflection of the movie, it's a reflection of our expectations for the genre versus what this movie did, which is very different from anything that we've seen, I think.

SPEAKER_02 40:47

Yeah, definitely. You know, if I try to stay away from movies like this, I really do, just because I mean, like I was crying. I was, you know, I I mean I wasn't sobbing, but I was like, I I like literally it was hurting like our stomachs. We were like, what the hell are we watching? And I mean it was just so shocking. And I was like, I'm not like in the mental capacity, I don't think ever, usually when I'm sitting down watching a movie, because I usually am trying to watch it for entertainment and kind of just to escape reality, and then I'm like, and I get it. That's what they wanted me to do. They wanted me to feel all of these, and it's and it was great. I just it was just a disconnect for me because that's not typically what I go for in movies.

SPEAKER_04 41:29

Yeah, I mean, movies in general, right? Even dating back to the Great Depression, served as escapism. You don't watch this to be entertained, you watch this to feel something, and I think that is something that's just really important to know going into it. I think if you go into this expecting it to be like mid-somar, it's a mind fuck, but it's entertaining. This is not that at all.

SPEAKER_00 41:50

I think you're so right on it creating a feeling within you, Chris, because I can tell you, I mean, it's it seems really like unrelated and kind of tangential. But when I'm watching this film, I'm sitting here seeing these acts of violence committed, seeing the suffering that people are going through, and it just like makes me think about like all the things that the people before me had to go through, even within my own family, that I'll never be able to understand or imagine. And at that point, like there's still human beings that went through worse. And, you know, obviously I have to feel lucky, I have to feel blessed to live the life that I live, but I'm I'm watching people go through this on the screen, and like you mentioned, it's it's hard to watch, but then I'm just sitting there thinking about like, I really have no idea what what human beings have been forced, have been forced to suffer through just to go from one minute to the next. And that's that's really I think the impact you get from this is like you let's say you even have an idea of what has happened. None of us can truly understand here what others have gone through, but we have to recognize it. And we have to we have to like get in the world and like act against the system that created it from continuing to exist. And I think that was one of the themes that I loved in this movie was the fact that it's not just calling out like obviously this stuff is bad, but what led to this existing is bad and horrible and horrendous and still happens in people's minds.

SPEAKER_01 43:19

Yeah, like to go from that, my biggest feeling throughout, especially the beginning part of this movie, was how are there people that think this history hasn't affected black people in America? Like, how does that exist? I don't understand how you could possibly exist thinking they're people now and everything's fine and we treat them the same. Like it it doesn't make any sense to me though that that this experience as a group of people could be diminished the way that it is by some people in America. And like that was the thing that sat with me. And then that's also the thing that I felt like wasn't handled perfectly in the movie for what that's worth. I I thought there's some places where that could have carried through more because of how real it is. But it's I there's some heavy stuff coming from this movie for sure.

SPEAKER_04 44:08

What do you think you would have liked to have seen it within its structure? Or do you think it like you needed like an extension or a complete different addition to that?

SPEAKER_01 44:16

When we get to the end, I'll tell you specifically because I have I hopefully what I think communicates what I feel, some very specific things that happened that I wish had been done differently because of how strong the messages were in the beginning of this movie. I uh uh for me.

SPEAKER_04 44:32

Right on. One of the biggest things that I took away from my conversation with Jasmine, right? And like just that entire bonus episode is how black history is black horror and black horror is still the present day. And so we can sit here and look at this movie, and you're right, it is absolutely horrific to stomach. But one of the things that she was even sharing with me, right, was one of the hardest moments for her to watch was when Veronica as Eden was being beaten and told to comply. And she, you know, parallel drew parallels between that and you know the the very real police brutality that's happening in our country right now, and how so many people on the internet say you should have just complied. And when you take someone's you know identity away from them, there's so much pain there. When we look at how hard this movie is to stomach, it starts there and it starts there very intentionally. And when it started there, I was surprised because I thought we were going to see things more linearly. I thought we were gonna see Veronica as an author get kidnapped because the scene of her being snabbed is in one of the trailers. So I thought we were gonna see her getting kidnapped and then somehow taken to this environment or transported to the past. So for the movie to just cold open and straight up throw you in to this horrific imagery of two people being beaten and forced to comply and shot and the rope going around this woman's neck, it's just it was horrowing.

SPEAKER_00 46:09

I think that's where the true gore lies in this movie. It's not in you know, CGI blood spurts that we get from a lot of slashers, it's in the attempt to remove the humanity from another person at every point. Yeah. Because they've already done it in their minds, and now they're trying to act that out upon someone else in real life.

SPEAKER_01 46:29

One of the like craziest tiny things in this movie for me was the pile of burning cotton. Once once we like once the story began to unfold, then it was like they're just they're just burning something for no reason that's being picked for no reason. And obviously, when you get the whole context of the story, you know, you understand what's going on and it all starts to come together. But like we realize that because at first you're just like, oh, it's a it's a fire, and then you realize it's the cotton burning, and it's just like aside from all the other gravely heartless things that are being done, that's the tiny thing, and it like sucks so much. It it is just one of those things that's just like, man, why are why are people like this? And that's the unfortunate part is people are like this. That's that's the that's the hard part of this movie that we're gonna you gotta get a grasp on. People are like this, and it's not an actual real uh reenactment camp in some southern state, but but people are like this, and that's what sucks.

SPEAKER_02 47:34

It's the subtlety, so that was pretty subtle, but then like just I mean, we were talking about it, and it was like they're going into the restaurant and they're getting seated, you know, by the kitchen. And it's just like little things like that, and I I haven't experienced something like that, and I'm like, wow, just little things like that add up throughout people's day, their life, their this, and it's just crazy. So, like I I see the comparison between just all these little things, which I I liked how those were put in there, and it wasn't just like okay, here are these big things that have happened, but no, it's every day, it's little things like that, and you're like, wow, and I hope it makes other people realize and see that it's still going on, it but at least you know, these things that you can notice and you know, stand up and do something like just simple things like that.

SPEAKER_04 48:27

Microaggressions become macroaggressions, and yes, it's it's crazy how much it's always there, and sometimes you're lucky enough to never see it.

SPEAKER_01 48:35

Yeah, and the thing that this movie did that I've never seen done before is equate the two tiny things, but seemingly tiny things. So equate the picking cotton just to burn it to seating you at the table, even though you're uh a a known author seating you at the table by the by the bathroom or by the kitchen. So it this movie did something where those two are on the same level where you can understand like this isn't something that happened way back in the day. This is something that happens. And and I hope that people are able to see that when they when they watch this movie.

SPEAKER_00 49:11

But I think it was a brilliant decision to structure the film in the way that they did, because while watching it, you you dive in and you're immediately thinking, Oh, this isn't what I thought it was. This is a movie spanning between two timelines. And so you're thinking, like, initially, okay, this is the past that has occurred, and we're gonna suddenly flash forward. Okay, it was a nightmare, and then there's there's a statement made that that our ancestors are experiencing our lives like through their dreams, and so you're thinking, like, okay, like this is like a time shifting kind of situation here. Obviously, later we find out that that's not the case, but it was brilliant because you get to see the juxtaposition of these two different realities and realize that this is still one reality. And so that the brutality that we see acted out, that people have only been able to fantasize about these sick and twisted people, and now it's now it's their their real life. Now they get to like do this to other human beings. But when we make it to the part where we get to see our character living as a human being, we we get all those little subtle moments of those people are holding it back, and they're not getting to live out their sick, twisted fantasies, they're having to hold back their feelings of hatred for other humans, even though they have no reason to hate anyone else. They just they just do, and they're holding it all back and they're taking it out in these small ways because they feel like they have to, because you know they're worried about being judged, or they're thinking, like, oh, I can't do those things, but that's just the way things are. When we see them in this like theme park effectively, they don't have to hold back anymore and they just let it out. And I think that's what it's showing off is like the system that made this thing that we think of as history hasn't changed. It's still there and it's always been there. Like you mentioned, Ryan. I mean, it's yeah, it hasn't gone away, but it's been masked. So when we make it to what we think of, okay, this is the modern day, we're like thinking, all right, this now things are fine.

SPEAKER_01 51:05

We think no one's making you pick cotton, so everything's fine.

SPEAKER_00 51:08

Right. Okay, this is good, and these small things aren't bad, but it's like, no, they're just they're just holding it in, they're just holding it back, but they are the same people. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 51:17

Mac, I'm so happy you brought that quote up specifically. When they say our ancestors haunt our dream to see themselves forward, I walked into this movie thinking, okay, cool, this is gonna be the village by M. Night Shyamalan. This is gonna be this is all happening, but we're actually in present day, and this is one confined little area. That was my gut reaction. And then when things flipped the way they did, and we got the story out of its linear chronology, I was like, oh wait, no, I was wrong. And I felt the same way, Mac. I felt like when I heard that, I was like, man, okay, like this is a weird look back in history where maybe there's they're gonna draw some parallels to how these things are still very alive and alive and well in the most unfortunate way today. That was, I think, one of the most surprising things for me because even then, right? So we come out of the setting in the plantation, we see Veronica in her life, we see a shot of her upside down, and she's doing yoga. And I thought in that moment they were going back to the plantation. Yeah, they got us, and then they didn't. I was like, what?

SPEAKER_02 52:20

They they got they they got us. We were like, oh my goodness, she's hanging upside down.

SPEAKER_01 52:25

And then I was like, no, no, no, she's doing yoga, dude.

SPEAKER_04 52:27

Yeah, no, I I totally I was surprised. So I really did think when they faked us out in that moment, I thought, okay, wow, this is different from what I expected. And then we still end up going back, right? We see her get kidnapped in the car. And by the way, that Uber ride and the realization of everything that was happening was one of the scariest things about this movie.

SPEAKER_01 52:50

I would like to have a PSA here for everyone, not just women. You shouldn't get into an Uber without verifying the license plate. Driver's name is one thing, a license plate is a different thing. Can't be faked, can't be guessed. Don't get into Ubers without verifying the license plate. I don't care who's with you or who ordered it, whatever you do. Okay, it's not a good idea for anyone.

SPEAKER_02 53:10

That's why I like how they they're like Alexis, like okay, okay, they know my name.

SPEAKER_01 53:14

Like, it's okay. All my Ubers think I'm gonna be a man. They're like, oh, who ordered your Uber tonight? I'm like, it's me, okay? I am Ryan. Okay, thank you. For me, Chris, I had only seen, like, I I guess because of the title, I'd only seen a teaser. So I'd only really seen the old, like, Civil War era part portions of this movie previewed. So I had no idea that there was any modern element involved. So we're watching for 30, 45 minutes. It's all very old, you know. You hear war sounds in the back, you hear all these things going on, all these things feel absolutely just unbelievably inconceivable for our modern day. And then things switch. And me and Alexis sat for so much of the time, like while she was like with her family at home during the first scenes in the modern times, and we were just like, what's happening? Is this, are they dreams? Are we like, yeah, where are we? Who is she? What's happening? I had no idea, you know, she was an author and everything like that. And then when we go back again and we or we start seeing those characters coming back from the first part into the more modern part for lack of a better term, it was it was like thrilling to see the story unfold because I had no idea what was happening. And I'm so thankful that I didn't watch an extended trailer and have any idea, had no idea she got kidnapped or anything like that. Because it really took me on a road that I would have never anticipated.

SPEAKER_02 54:40

I I think, yeah, we you have this all this emotional buildup, and then it's like, oh, okay, it was a dream. I mean, although I thought at some times the pacing was a little bit off for me, um, especially during like that second part. I think it was just more me trying to figure out what was going on. And then you get a lot of like these weird, you know, scenes where you're like, okay, what's happening here? What's the point in this? Like when they were going out to the club. And I get it was to show the you know microaggressions and should just show like some sort of comparison and like who she is, and who she is. So I I got that, but I was like, okay, I think I was just so confused on what was going on at that point. But I mean, now that I like can put all those together, I think I think the structure was pretty great. And I mean, now that's like going out of order. I've never really seen something like that done before, at least effectively.

SPEAKER_04 55:29

And I want to go to that moment, right, when the cell phone rings and he, the general, gets out of bed and goes to answer it, and he has discussion of the ballot box going our way. Did you all pick up that he is a senator who owns the park? No, not at all, not at all. Yeah, okay, so beautiful. After the 40-minute mark, when she's in her home and she's watching herself, yeah. So she's doing that segment, right? There's a ticker at the bottom. Talks about assault weapon ban, cuts back to her. She's just talking with her husband, cuts back to that. So the ticker at the bottom goes by and it says, Louisiana State Senator Blake Denton introduced a bill in Baton Rouge to protect Confederate monuments from removal in that state's public domain. Yeah. At the end, when everything gets revealed, the antebellum park is owned by Blake Denton. Elizabeth is his daughter, and she was wearing the Blake Denton pin when she was in the room. Like gets that close-up to that like thing that's like on her lapel.

SPEAKER_03 56:28

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 56:29

And that was so wild to me. And that like deep connection, and I think it just brings up even more relevancy, right? Like taking down monuments, glorifying and honoring Confederacy has been such a prevalent topic. And when you consider that this movie was made before it became an even more prevalent topic this year, it was supposed to release in theaters in April. It hits differently.

SPEAKER_01 56:51

Yeah, I think it could have been interesting to see then as well as now. Like it it's not that maybe now is better than before how it would have felt, but different for sure. And they even do like some very interesting things like have Elizabeth die by hitting her head on the base of the Confederate Robert E. Lee statue, which is like, you know, a uh honestly a strange tone of comedy in this portion of the movie. And there was there was a few times where I was like, there's nothing that we could be joking about right now, but also uh it's just like with the year that we've had, it has a very significant like feeling in that moment, and it's just really interesting to see.

SPEAKER_00 57:36

I love that you bring that up because when that happened and they kind of pan around and you get to see what this monument is, you do get that feeling of vindication though, because his daughter's been brainwashed into glorifying the past, this past that they think they need to bring back and experience on a regular basis. They think it's wonderful and it's the right way to live life, and then her head hits it. I mean, it couldn't be more literally on the nose. I think it was so fantastic. That's that's the way that she gets to go out. And it was it was like such a great moment when it happened, and they pan around and and she turns around and and looks at it, and I was just like, Yeah, F that statue.

SPEAKER_01 58:18

Yeah, I totally knew it was coming. I called it as soon as she hit something, I was like, Oh, that's a Confederate statue. Easily.

SPEAKER_02 58:23

That's awesome that you mentioned that because that was not satisfying to me at all. Um, and if anyone has listened to the um podcast in the past, they know that I'm unfortunately, you know, eye for an eye. So I wanted you are out for blood more than most of the characters in this movie, honestly. Yes. So my thing is I I you have this such an it it it just has, I don't know if animosity is the right word, but just I have so much like hatred towards these um Confederate people, these racists in like I've just so much hatred for him, all these horrible acts that they're doing to these people, like it it just builds up a lot um of intense emotion for me in the beginning. And same with Ryan, like we were both like crazy. I mean, I've talked about the whole entire podcast how we felt during this first scene. So I don't think to me it was justified enough at the end that that's just what happened. It there was just okay, Elizabeth, that's how she dies, that's how these people are dying.

SPEAKER_04 59:25

Like I have a clarifying question there. Yeah. So is justified the right word there, or are you thinking like underwhelming?

SPEAKER_02 59:32

Underwhelming, like she deserved worse. She deserved worse, yes. So it's probably more of an underwhelmed sort of feeling, um, just because I wanted um like uh tortured maybe um something like you know, I I don't know. I was just like, ugh, it was just it was just then you have Veronica riding off in a horse, and I was like, what is this? And Ryan on Instagram, yes, and Ryan had the same sort of feelings, I feel like towards the end. So I don't know how you felt about that.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:01

Yeah, I have some very specific things that I didn't enjoy about the ending, and uh of course I want Veronica to escape. And I'm I'm so glad that she used technology like a smart person and she sent her location and she didn't try to just say, Hey, I don't know where I am, and um, you know, called her husband and got his face ID open and made him open his eyes, like things like this that would have normally like really annoyed me logistically. They worked out well. So glad that she was able to get out. However, I have a few feelings. One is that while people were being killed, I felt like they sat on it for a minute, so much so that it almost gave a feeling like I was supposed to feel bad for them dying at the end, and I didn't, and I didn't want to, and I didn't want to like I don't I don't know how to explain it and or why I felt that way, and maybe it's just me, and I'm willing to accept that if that's the case, but I felt like some of the shots that we got were not shots of like excitement that Veronica was being free, but there was some amount, some tone that came through to me that was like it focused on their deaths in a way that, like I said, it was almost supposed to make me feel bad, and I didn't feel bad. And I, you know, I'm not so much of a revenge person, but these are clearly absolutely horrible people. And I I I don't know, and I can't even point to the thing that made me feel that way, but something there left me unsettled about how they were killed and how their deaths were expressed, and I'm not sure why, but it is.

SPEAKER_04 1:01:34

Are you referring to the general and Captain Jasper who were burned alive and then Elizabeth who was beaten?

SPEAKER_01 1:01:40

Yeah, basically everyone on Veronica's way out. Um, even even the soldier Daniel in the field, like it just altogether, I'm not and not all of them necessarily, but throughout that scene, there was a few moments where I was like, Are y'all trying to make me feel bad? Because I don't I I don't feel bad. And I don't think that they were. Yeah, I didn't get that either. Yeah, I'll I'll I'll I'll go ahead and say it was just me. I'm fine with that. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:02

I'm so surprised that you feel that way because I was very satisfied with those those deaths in particular for for a couple reasons. So, one, the general gets stabbed with his own sword, which I found very satisfying.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:16

Seen that in a movie before, plenty. And to be fair, what other swords were there? Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:20

Right. Sure. But the way that he goes out, I just I just love that that's how he went out. He didn't just get like choked out, he didn't get his like neck snapped or anything like that. They had to fight. Unfortunately, we lost someone along the way, but in the end, the general gets stabbed and then lays there like a little wimp, because that's what he is in real life. And then, not the actor, the character, but then when we move along and we get to Jasper, who has spent the entire film again trying to remove the humanity from others, gets his existence removed with flame. And I found that to be such a great ending for him. That was my favorite, to be fair. Oh, I mean, absolutely, and I love that he just like ran in to go help the general, like, oh, I gotta go save him, right? And then boom, door shuts. We were like screaming, like, yes, like do it, just like light that thing on fire. And I don't know if that's sadistic or not, but it was just it it needed to happen. And then when we get to Elizabeth, who is this evil person whose mind has been trained to think the wrong way and who has inflicted so much pain on others, and to have her head literally hit this reminder of what's wrong with her brain, was I thought just like so brilliant.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:32

I get that. I'm not against it. I'm not against the ending as far as that. That was just a thing that that specifically stood out to me. But there's one more thing about the ending that absolutely was unsatisfying, and that is the images that we get during the ending sequence. So we get like pictures of like a bulldozer knocking down the sign and the FBI going through the fields and stuff like that. And here is my problem, and it's it's a tough problem to talk about, but this movie, there's so much reality, and and specifically, there's so much reality to, from my perspective, what black people experience in America. And like we were talking about these microaggressions and comparing these time time frames, and just there was so much that was so real that you felt, you felt so much hurt for the people in this movie. And then at the end, they knock it down with a bulldozer and the FBI is there. And in no part of our reality do I believe that anyone was served justice for this. Like, sure, a few people died, but there was hundreds of people there. And the FBI have the police ever, in a situation like this, actually done the right thing? Has anyone been to jail? Like, I was saying something that probably I shouldn't have been talking during this part of the movie, but at the end I was like, yeah, and the reality of the end of the story is that Veronica ends up in court because she's been arrested for killing people. That's the reality of it. And that's what, like, it just didn't settle with me because everything felt so real. And then it's just like, oh yeah, they just tore it down and everything's fine. And I hated that. I hated those images at the end.

SPEAKER_04 1:05:07

I like an ending filled with a little bit more optimism for where we should be going.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:12

I hope so, but but this movie wasn't filled with optimism.

SPEAKER_04 1:05:16

Right. So let me actually read you this quote from the director. He outlined his vision for how this movie starts and then how this movie ends. The movie is bookended by beginning at sunset and ending at the dawn of a new day. We're approaching the dawn of a new day where we won't defer action on our equality for another minute. Antebellum represents what will be an artifact of this moment. So, granted, it may not be totally realistic in what we can expect of things right now, but the creators behind this film want to look to a future when justice will be served, when there will be an investigation, when action is taken, when people are held accountable for their deeds. Granted, who can they hold accountable? Probably the people who are still there cosplaying, right? Like people. People who were still there, but not the head honchos, because the head honchos are already taken out. Yeah, but he has friends. But one of the things that I think worked so well about that ending was looking at the trauma and the rage that Veronica felt, right? So she's harboring this and she's taking on all this all this aggression and this just willingness to survive, and she's doing it because she has to, right? And she is riding that horse through that reenactment, realizing at the end of it that, like, okay, this is what it is. There is a world beyond beyond that threshold of those signs. And she's still carrying that emotional weight in her eyes, right? Look at the things that she has had to do just to survive. And the small little detail that tripped me up was the woman as she's riding this horse. This woman has her phone out and then she just points it at her. She points the camera at her. And realistically, isn't that representative of the reality of today? Absolutely. People are also blissfully unaware. That woman thought it was part of the show. And just you're just an audience member to this woman's trauma. And that's all we can ever be, right? Just in the audience, because we will never be able to fully understand it. And that's why I loved the power of that ending.

SPEAKER_00 1:07:14

I thought the whole story from start to finish was a great parallel for when Veronica is presenting her book and discussing, you know, this personality that she's talking about, of breaking free of having to just survive to moving forward to actually being able to thrive and not have to feel guilty about it or feel scared of judgment or not have to defend yourself for simply trying to be well and to do well. And this whole story where we kind of reset, you know, we see this version of her in her real life before this brutal kidnapping and torture. And then we see afterwards when she has to do her best to survive until it's the right moment where she has to dig within her and grab that strength and stand for it no longer. And not only that, it's not just about like, okay, I'm gonna escape and just run away. I am going to free those around me. And she mentions that when talking about her book, and that's what the character does as well. It's really important to her to bring it all down. And that's why actually, I know you weren't a huge fan of the bulldozer part, you know, they're just tearing it down, but I like the symbol of that, of that it's not enough to just say, like, I got out and I survived, but we need to just burn this whole thing to the ground and never let it happen again.

SPEAKER_01 1:08:32

Yeah, I agree. I just feel like if when you have the subtleties of like a senator runs this place, having the FBI show up at the end just feels disconnected from how real and intense the rest of the story was.

SPEAKER_00 1:08:46

And I would say it's it's almost kind of sad because you know, we have that that kind of a feeling because we know what happens today.

SPEAKER_03 1:08:52

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:08:52

And that's what really should really make you feel something is like if that's our reality now, the only thing we can do is fight to change it. If we think, okay, that's just not how it would play out because that's not how today is playing out, then today's not good enough.

SPEAKER_01 1:09:05

Agreed.

SPEAKER_00 1:09:05

And like it just makes you angry and you're like, that this cannot stand, you know, something has to be done.

SPEAKER_04 1:09:10

Yeah, absolutely. Mac, I'm so happy you brought up that part when she's presenting her book, because the thing she says, her dialogue within that scene, actually makes it my favorite scene. And she talks about how I'm gonna read just two of these two quotes we're expected to be seen, not heard, or we risk being perceived as threatening to the patriarchy, or God forbid we continue to get branded as the angry black woman. And then that just flashes you back to when she was literally branded just moments before. And then she talks about how the coping persona has been a mode of survival for generations of oppressed people. Within our authenticity lies real power. But the one that really got to me was when she said, To the patriarchy, we've been practically invisible, but their arrogance is their greatest vulnerability and our greatest opportunity. And it brings me to a quote by Asada Shakur. The only thing that we have to lose are our chains, liberation over assimilation. And I think that was just one of the most powerful moments in this movie for me.

SPEAKER_02 1:10:11

I really like the scene where um Veronica's having this like Zoom call with um Elizabeth because at first I thought they were like friends, but then I realized that they're not. She had just called her randomly and it was like a setup interview, and I was like, oh, this is interesting, this dynamic. But um, I I just like the whole comment she said about the lipstick. And she takes off this lipstick, and it's like to appease, you know, an interviewer or another person, and someone who is clearly, you know, making a comment about her looks and everything like that. So I just thought that was very powerful because although she is a strong woman, you know, there are insecurities, and you know, there is this face she has, and she's presenting it to these people and everyone's looking up to her, but still people are still working through these insecurities and through everything. And I just thought that was really powerful. And then Elizabeth ends up putting the lipstick on.

SPEAKER_00 1:11:06

It does tie in well though to when Elizabeth is like rooting through her life when she's in the hotel room and sitting on her bed and taking a look at the photos or the picture rather, and knocking over her stuff. And I mean, even on the call, she's like making mention of her daughter, and it's just like she just invades her life and is like taking you know little things out of it. Um, because again, like she she doesn't consider her her human and she doesn't mind just like digging and digging.

SPEAKER_01 1:11:36

Yeah, that scene is also insane, the Zoom call, because it's like at that point we don't really know what's going on, and she clearly seems like a person that's been taken from another era, which we've just come from, and now we're trying to figure it all out. But the reality becomes that that's just who she is today, you know, like she's not from another era, she's not a ghost from the past. This is a real woman, and she's a psychopath with sick thoughts, but she's so creepy on that Zoom call. And then as she like stalks the room and everything, yeah, it's insane.

SPEAKER_04 1:12:07

Isn't it funny how prevalent Zoom has become that we keep calling it a Zoom call, even though there was clearly the Skype tone playing before the call?

SPEAKER_01 1:12:14

Yep. I was just thinking that as I said it out loud. I was like, it was not a Zoom call, but that's just what it is now.

SPEAKER_04 1:12:19

Yeah, but like people used to say when you want to FaceTime each other, hey yeah, can you call me on Skype? It's like Skype has lost now at this point. Skype is no longer.

SPEAKER_01 1:12:27

Skype really lost their chance to capitalize on life in 2020. They they they missed their era.

SPEAKER_00 1:12:33

It's interesting. So I didn't interpret it as it is as insecurity. I thought it was like disgust. I thought that's why she took it off. And I just it surprised me because I just I didn't even think to think about it that way.

SPEAKER_01 1:12:45

I think what Alexis is looking at is that she still feels the need to change herself based on other people's like comments and perceptions of her, whatever they may be, positive or negative. She presents herself as a very confident woman that you might think, oh, she's just gonna do what she wants to do, but other people still have an influence. And that's like that's where that comes in, I think.

SPEAKER_00 1:13:05

Yeah, and it's it's funny because like it's such a contrast to the scenes when where she's with her best friend, and those were some of my favorite scenes. When her best friend like does not care and will say what she thinks, and I absolutely like loved it so much because you could tell other characters might get like a little uncomfortable or like they were intimidated, and that's what made it so perfect. Is it you know, it's because like I'm just gonna be me and I'm just gonna live my life, and I'm sorry, like that's just how it is, right? And other characters is kind of like they can't handle it in some cases and would kind of like move away. But I love the fact that when like the whole flirtatious thing is happening at the table, that the guy like digs it even more, you know. That that part was interesting, but I don't know. I just love the fact that she was out there, she was just being herself, didn't mind telling other people off or telling them how she felt, and she just had such a great personality on screen. It was so much fun to watch.

SPEAKER_01 1:13:59

So it's funny that you mentioned that, Mac. Um, that that restaurant scene. There's something that is done in this movie that I I'm not sure if there was a specific purpose, and maybe if you guys know of something, you can share it with me. But it stood out to me, and that is not showing the faces of almost any character that Veronica speaks to after she leaves her house, pretty much from that point on, aside from the creepy people that are apparently in on a kidnapping her, like the concierge in the hotel and everything, who has like a plantation picture behind her. Um, like aside from these few characters, you don't see anyone's face. And it was very interesting. And I I think it probably stood out to me a little bit more than maybe it stood out to Alexis because I couldn't stop talking about it. I was like, why aren't they showing people's faces? Like, we didn't see the hostess's face, Becky. We didn't see the the waiter, we didn't see the man that came up at the bar. And there's just a few of these different scenes. Not sure if they maybe even needed to have a purpose, but they were just really interesting to watch. And also another favorite visual element is how well the Civil War time period was done. It is like there was no hint that this was actually modern times when we watched the first part. There was no way you could ever know. Are you gonna disagree?

SPEAKER_04 1:15:14

Minus the jewelry that the first woman is wearing, she's wearing a septum piercing and a cross.

SPEAKER_00 1:15:19

There was so many small details. And I know you guys like make fun of me for like trying to figure things out as I'm watching, but when we're in that first scene, and also the color grading in this movie, whoever did it, please promote them, give them a raise, whatever it is, because the transition between different time periods, between different scenes, between different emotions, like it changes like the correct way, though. It's not just oops, they forgot to like do the Avengers color scheme on the whole thing. You know what I mean? Like color grading was phenomenal. It was amazing, but there's so many small details. Like the Confederate flag that's used is the completely incorrect Confederate flag. It's the modern Confederate flag that was never flown by the Confederacy.

SPEAKER_01 1:15:58

Wow, I'm I'm just dumb. Wow, I didn't know. You're not dumb.

SPEAKER_00 1:16:02

And it's it's done that, I mean it's done this way on purpose because a lot of people are not going to notice it. But I'm sitting here watching and I'm going, wait, this is this either has to be a dream or like time is mixed up or something, or like we find out in the end, this is this is the modern day, and you have those little inaccuracies because it's not inaccurate, it's it's today.

SPEAKER_01 1:16:20

See, and I think again, I was blind to that because I had no idea that a modern Veronica even existed without watching the trailer.

SPEAKER_02 1:16:29

Yeah, exactly. And I think we kind of touched on it a little bit when um when you meet Julia and she references her as like she's seen her before or like knows of her and is like, come on, you you're the one that's supposed to be helping us. And you know, she I mean, just like the um just the way she carried herself did not seem like very, you know, civil war time to me. And I think because you you don't hear much many of the characters have any interaction because they're not allowed to talk, so you only get certain amounts. So she steps in and I'm like, oh wow, and that's what we had talked about. We're like, okay, maybe like that didn't seem authentic for that time. Not that I was I was alive during the Civil War, but like I mean, but here's the thing.

SPEAKER_04 1:17:13

Here's the thing, right? Like, if you watch all these period pieces, you would expect a different even inflection, yes, right? A different accent. Yeah, that's anything.

SPEAKER_01 1:17:20

Yeah. To be fair, that was the one thing that stood out to me where I was like, that's a that's a weird interaction. She said, You're from Virginia, I'm from North Carolina. I this just doesn't seem the as something about the way that they're talking to each other and talking about you being a leader and stuff like that. Obviously, I didn't know what was gonna evolve with Veronica and who she was, but it it that was the only thing that stood out to me, which means, you know, I just overlook some stuff, but still I stand by my comment. Visually, the Civil War times were incredible as a whole from from the the background, just so many details that I enjoyed um that made it very immersive.

SPEAKER_02 1:17:56

To me, there's this um contrast in um a few of the scenes, and it's so crazy because I would think that, you know, during the one, the scenes where they're showing like the civil war, like before she's kidnapped. So in those scenes, like everything outside is like so bright, and then you get into like the third part and it's where they were burning bodies, and it's like kind of gritty looking. Um, this this building is, and it's it's so weird. It actually looks like someone cut and pasted it into there because the background is so like bright and light, and I just I mean, I'd love to like know like what the intention was if there was any intention, but to me that really stood out, and I even think I said that was like, oh, that's interesting how it's just so dark and b not bland, but just like I think because it's just packed with emotion, and and then you see this sunlight, and you're like, oh my goodness, what the heck? How can these two honestly, how can these two worlds even be coexisting? Like exactly right there. Yeah, exactly. I just never mind, I just uh unpacked it myself. Okay, that's the whole movie in a nutshell, I'd say.

SPEAKER_00 1:19:04

I'm I'm curious about you, Chris, because while watching this, there were so many technical things that like could not get over how well you know they did, like just such a great job.

SPEAKER_04 1:19:14

Oh my gosh. So here's the thing, right? We all remember for those, well, the three of us remember watching Mid Samar and thinking about the sheer daylight of that movie and how vibrant the colors were, right? The opening scene, first, the score in this movie is incredible. And I'm gonna have it stuck in my head. The opening score is going on my creepy work playlist 100%. But the way the camera moves through this scene, we see a little girl approaching her mother or just this woman, and we see the camera moving through this beautiful warm day, and you know it's in the south, and you know it's a terrible time, the way they use color and the way they film this, it looks almost like like a really intense dream, but not like the soft kind of dream like quality that you would expect. Like nothing looks hazy, but it looks so out of this world because of how beautiful it is. And there are a couple things that I noticed. The use of wide angle lens, the way it can warp the edges of the frame when they pull back from some of the buildings on the plantation, you see the curvature of the beams in the side of the house. And so it just adds to this dream element, right? And it kind of creates this idea of like, okay, but is this actually a dream? Is this actually her ancestors haunting her dreams to see themselves forward? And that was a beautiful touch. One of the other things that really stood out to me is the juxtaposition of light and darkness, and looking at there's a moment when Eli is in the shed and he finds the remains and he finds the cross and he's struggling and he's crying, and it pulls out from that darkness, and you see everybody going about their lives in the background, and it's just the contrast and the juxtaposition of the beauty on the outside and the darkness and the pain on the inside was just fucking haunting. You're absolutely right.

SPEAKER_01 1:21:14

They did some some crazy things there that really made you feel things.

SPEAKER_04 1:21:18

Nothing made me feel more things, though, than the performances in this movie and the quality and the caliber of talent that was in it. When we look at the characters, one of the big critiques that this movie got that I don't quite understand. So I'd be curious to know if if Ryan and Alexis, if you feel the same way, people are saying that they feel like there's no character development in this movie, that their arcs were set up and then they fall flat. And that just seems wild to me. I don't understand how anyone could feel that way.

SPEAKER_02 1:21:43

Yeah, I definitely don't see that at all. I mean, the characters play themselves very well, and I think I I I love a good movie where the especially like the villains in the movie play like such good roles that you're like, I never want to watch a movie that they're in ever again. They're pieces of shit. It's like and that's how I felt about like especially like like the men in this movie, like yeah, it yeah, Daniel threw me off because I was like, oh, maybe there isn't a piece of shit in this movie. And next thing you know, I'm like, oh my gosh, like when he says, Why did you why did you talk to me? Like, why are you talking to me? And then like kickster, but then you see him like kind of feeling bad, but you're like, oh, he's still a piece of shit, like in this movie. And I think it's like you're like, maybe there's hope. No, there's not, like, there is not, because sometimes people are it's just so ingrained that, and I I thought at one point he was just trying to um like kind of show off or at some point, but I don't I don't know. His it was an interesting character to like watch, like just in like not a good interesting, just a like compelling sort of way. Like I was like, okay, cool. Oh wow, he's nice. There's somewhat, there's some hope, especially for her. And then look what happens to her. It's so sad.

SPEAKER_04 1:23:06

So I love that you point that out because that was a horrible moment, and I think it could have been damaging either way you went, right? Because if Daniel is the nice guy who falls in love with with Julia and steps in to intervene, it becomes the white savior trope, right? And there needs to be a white person to save the characters. But when you look at him and you see the way he turns on her and you hear him, notice how he's called a snowflake later in the movie. So they have this fucking like if you have feelings or if you're decent, you're a snowflake. And he has this toxic male masculinity while also having this toxic fragility. And it's like this deep underlying insecurity that he can't even trust any instinct he has to be decent because he's so conditioned to be just like everybody else.

SPEAKER_01 1:24:02

Yeah, and my impression of it is like he's just trying to be like the people around him. So he doesn't get any credit for even if he was being the nice guy, he doesn't get any credit for it because he's still there doing this with these people, knowing what's going on around him. And to me, it was all just like a tryhard. I'm I'm I'm trying to be like these guys. And when it didn't seem like he truly was, which gets him, again, no credit whatsoever.

SPEAKER_00 1:24:26

I took it a totally different way because he makes a comment about something about him coming. I don't know if it's from a small town or from how people think about him in this town, but it's that he feels small, and so now he has to inflict damage on anyone else who he can perceive as helpless. Now he has some power, now he has to use that, and now he is is not small, now he's big and now he's strong. And so he comes to this place to like feel a certain way, to feel that like he's in charge and he's the big man. When we know that he's not, he's small and he's nothing and he means nothing. And it would it doesn't have to be that way, right? But his insecurity now has made him this violent, hateful person, which is what we see so often in in the violence of today. But that's what's so brilliant about the characters in this film is that you miss out on so much if you don't pay attention to the details of them. They all feel so well developed and they all feel like people that we know of or have seen or have heard of in real life. It's not like these are are like fake people that you're like, oh, would that would never happen? Those people would never think like that, they would never act like that, because we know that they do and they are right now. And I don't know, I react badly to those, you know, critics who comment on this like not having you know character development, not having arcs, that kind of thing. Because I feel like we see a lot of characters start from a place where we don't know much about them yet, and then by the end, what you get may not be like a character who has changed in some way. You know, it's not like people are like necessarily growing. The evil people in this movie are not like, you know what, I'm wrong, or anything like that. What we get is we get a small glimpse of a human being, and by the end, we learn more and we care about them more. And that's the development I think is is really what's important is that you get you get to earn some empathy for somebody and you get to care about them more. And that that moment where we get Eli, or honestly, I mean he's the professor in in my book, because when she refers to him as such later on, I just love that moment. But when he is out there in the shed, like he gets commanded to go clean the shed. I didn't know what kind of shed this was gonna be. I didn't realize this was the burn facility, and he and he breaks down, and we see that love and that loss. Like, yeah, you don't know that right up front yet, but by the end of the film, you are feeling so much and you are in so much pain for this character, and that subtle moment he has to grieve away from everyone else where he can actually cry and hold a piece of jewelry, and that's the memory that he is allowed to have. I mean, that's that's the character arc that matters here, is just how much you get to know and empathize with these other human beings.

SPEAKER_02 1:27:04

I would agree with that, for sure.

SPEAKER_01 1:27:06

Yeah, and I think this movie doesn't have like the the standard character arcs that people on Rotten Tomatoes might be looking for, which is like person is bad, person meets another person, becomes good. Like that's one, that's unrealistic, especially in the context of what we're talking about here. There are very few people that think the way the evil people in this movie think that change. And that's uh terrible reality that hopefully will change as we get older and as our children get older. But you know, if they're in this movie and then all of a sudden they're good and they don't do bad things anymore, I would have written this movie off even, you know, before I finished it because it's it's it that's just so unrealistic. Um, this movie to me has the kind of characters where I don't understand how actors can act as these characters on both sides. It's just like heartbreaking to watch. And I can't imagine what it would have been like to be any of the characters in this movie, and especially someone like Veronica, and like what she had to do here. Um, it's it's just they're very intense and they're great. And anyone that takes away from that kind of sucks.

SPEAKER_04 1:28:15

Yeah. One of the really significant quotes that I read was an interview from Janelle Monet, and she's talking about how choreographed the end fight scene is between her and Elizabeth, but how she had to channel so much inner rage and emotion, and also try to not hurt her because she was thinking about how many women are supporting the political climate in this country as it is, and how harmful that has been to people. And it's just so intense, right? When you have the reality of this, and and everybody who's involved in this film, look, I mean, is it a perfect film? No, it's not perfect, but everybody who's involved in this film is involved because they're passionate about it, and I think that comes through in their performances. So this comes from Janelle Monet talking about Jenna Malone, who plays Elizabeth. My fight scene with Jenna was choreographed, but that was real rage. There was a lot of rolling around and moments when we would get scarred, scratched, and bruised up in real life because there was so much pent-up energy. And this comes from her directly. All I kept thinking about was all of the white women who went to vote for Trump, and all the white women who sat there on the plantation as their husbands beat our ancestors, and about Emmett Till and the white woman who lied on him. I had to channel that during our fight. I had to really, without hurting Jenna, fight her. And that is so powerful to hear, and especially when you look at that moment, right? Such an important part of this movie is intersectionality and looking at how during that scene that I said earlier was my favorite, she's talking about the intersectionality of race, class, and gender. And one of the biggest things is if you have empathy and you're able to see yourself in spaces where you've needed empathy in your life, then you can recognize the struggle that others have and work alongside of them to help pull them from those struggles. And so when she's beating Elizabeth and she says, What kind of woman are you? That hit me so hard. And I think if Janelle Monet doesn't get an Oscar for this movie, fuck the Oscars forever. I mean that anyway, kind of honestly. Yeah, she deserves all the recognition for her performance as Veronica in this film.

SPEAKER_00 1:30:28

And what a character to talk about, Chris. Janelle Monet did an amazing job as Veronica. Like, goodness. She's so much to watch on screen, so much expression, so much emotion coming through, and you really just like feel the things that she's feeling. That character like means something to you as you're as you're going along, and to see her progress, you know, from the real life when we finally make it to like the present-day feeling of okay, this is this is now, this is actually modern day, all the way up through the end. You can just feel that struggle happening and her overcoming. And it's it's so absolutely satisfying. I mean, I'm I'm with you there. Like, wow, one, what a great character, but two, that portrayal, like that portrayal is amazing. You're a great actor, I just gotta say it.

SPEAKER_04 1:31:16

Obviously, we've well established the gravity of this film. It's certainly a somber tone, and while it's not something that we would probably pop on to, you know, enjoy the nice comedy, the dark comedy of Freddie Krueger, or get the same laughs as Tucker and Dale versus Evil, I for one intend to watch it a few more times to pick up on more details that I didn't. I don't think that's going to be easy to do by any stretch of the imagination. I'm definitely gonna have to like prepare myself emotionally. I think the last two days between having the conversations we've had, watching this movie, I think I am emotionally drained in a good way, in a way that I think makes me better. But what about what about you folks? Do you think you'll revisit this at all?

SPEAKER_02 1:31:59

I definitely would just to see the details that I never I did not pick up before. I I think it's it's a really heavy movie, so it'll be a while before I do that, but I would be interested to watch it again to see all the stuff I could pick up on.

SPEAKER_01 1:32:11

Yeah, I feel you in that. I feel like there are there are details here that would definitely be worth watching again. Um, but I'll be honest, I my little cowardly heart does not usually ask for uh this weight to be put on it, especially when I'm watching movies. Um, so I I probably won't watch it again, but I wouldn't be against it.

SPEAKER_00 1:32:31

I feel like it I'm in a moment kind of like, you know, we get to see Veronica practice over and over tiptoeing and stretching across the floor to make it out the cabin and and eventually escape. And I feel like that's one of those things where you really do need to re-watch this and you need to practice and you need to soak up more each time and until you can truly kind of properly consume exactly what's being shown to you. So I think this is one I I do want to watch again. It's it's one of those where obviously there's a big meaning and a big feeling happening.

SPEAKER_04 1:33:01

Absolutely. And I'm so glad you even point that out, man, because I I don't know how that slipped my mind, how insane it is, insanely brilliant, and how much I loved seeing Veronica devise her strategy and play the waiting game. And everything she did was in the interest of leaving and escaping, but she also bid her time, and that's just Mac. I didn't make the connection on my own to the fact that this movie just parallels her with the coping persona. I didn't put that connection in my head. Like I see it, I recognize it logistically, I have one, I have another, but I didn't realize it equaled to. But to see that element of her character, I want to re-watch it again just to just to absorb that even more. Folks, if you have made it to this at this point of the episode and you still haven't seen this movie and you really just wanted it all spoiled for yourself, give it a watch. Give it a watch. Now go in knowing what you can expect from the gravity of this film. And while you're there, take this next bit of information with you because Mac has some factor fiction for us.

SPEAKER_00 1:34:03

Alright, let's let's jump in. And kind of like this film, you know, this is this is not gonna be easy either. I'm gonna throw some stuff at you, but it's worth it. Number one, once labeled as an instant classic, the film Gone with the Wind and the book it was based on is now publicly recognized as racist propaganda. A Pittsburgh civil rights group described the book as a glorification of the old rotten system of slavery, propaganda for race hatreds and bigotry, and incitement of lynching. This movie was filmed using the original lenses used in the filming of Gone with the Wind.

SPEAKER_02 1:34:36

That's an interesting comment. Um, I'm trying to think. I would hope they would update it, but I don't know how lenses work or anything like that. So I'm just gonna say this is a fact.

SPEAKER_01 1:34:47

Uh I'm saying fact, and I saw some things online regarding Gone with the Wind. And they may not be this, so I may still be wrong, but I'm going with fact.

SPEAKER_00 1:34:55

It is a fact. This movie was shot using those lenses. The lenses had to be refit to fit on, you know, of course, modern cameras, but goodness, the visual result was amazing. One of my favorite things about this film was the cinematography. I'm so happy, you know, I'm blessed enough to be able to witness such an intelligent, informed response to the horrid glorification of human misery you get with Gone with the Wind.

SPEAKER_01 1:35:21

Yeah, it's like uh one of those tiny nuggets that maybe everyone doesn't know, but just to know that is amazing.

SPEAKER_04 1:35:28

Can I also just add, right? I saw Gone With the Wind as a small child, and like don't really remember much of it at all. I read the synopsis of Gone With the Wind, and that shit is wild.

SPEAKER_01 1:35:39

How about this? At some point, not sure which age this was, it was played in school in my class over three days. Wow. And I just remember thinking, this is the most boring movie I've ever seen in my entire life. Please don't make me watch this. A man sexually assaults his wife, but hey, I don't know, man. I oh I'm sure I was in high school, but it is strange to look back and think that that's what we were watching.

SPEAKER_00 1:36:03

The wild part to me is that when they were making the movie, they had to kind of soften things up, you know? So because the the book is very harsh and pretty damn horrible. But in the movie, they're like, let's make it like a little bit more, you know, a little bit more palatable so that people will still buy into this BS that we're peddling. Number two. Although herself a fashion icon, Janelle Monet deferred the selection of clothing and costumes in the film to the producer's fashion expert to focus more on her performance as Veronica.

SPEAKER_01 1:36:31

Overall, as a whole, you're saying this?

SPEAKER_00 1:36:34

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:36:34

Gosh, I feel like she picked them outfits though during the modern part.

SPEAKER_02 1:36:37

Yeah, she is like a fashion icon, so I'm gonna say this is fiction. Gosh, I'm gonna go fact just for fun.

SPEAKER_00 1:36:44

It's a fiction. Monet worked hand in hand with three-time Academy Award nominee, Mary Zofrize, to choose clothes that were true to the character of Veronica Henley while celebrating black design excellence.

SPEAKER_01 1:36:56

Yeah, and I mentioned earlier there were some really small details, like the lipstick that she puts on is um the brand of an incredible black makeup artist, Bat McGrath, if I'm not mistaken. So those little things I'm not surprised by at all.

SPEAKER_00 1:37:10

Number three. While this is the first time many of us have seen Janelle Monet in a lead role, she has actually landed the leading role in two other future films, albeit indie releases, one in 2012 and one in 2015.

SPEAKER_02 1:37:22

I feel like this is the first time, but then I feel like maybe I just haven't seen. Like, I'm just doing it for music. I'm gonna say fiction.

SPEAKER_01 1:37:30

I looked and I know she has a filmography. This I had already looked before. I don't know what you qualify as as major or whatever. I'm going fact.

SPEAKER_04 1:37:40

She was in hidden figures. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:37:42

However, this is a fiction, this is her first leading role in a feature film.

SPEAKER_01 1:37:47

Heard that.

SPEAKER_00 1:37:48

And last one for the night. The idea for this film came from a nightmare.

SPEAKER_01 1:37:52

It feels more intentional than that. I'm going, I'm going fiction. Fiction.

SPEAKER_00 1:37:56

This one is a fact.

SPEAKER_01 1:37:57

Oh my god, I suck.

SPEAKER_00 1:37:58

Director Gerard Bush, who suffered this nightmare, first thought of writing it into a short story, but as we now know, turned it into a feature film script with co-director Christopher Wrenz.

SPEAKER_04 1:38:08

It's nuts to hear about that dream, to like see how he describes it. It was a woman screaming for help, and all she could scream was him. Like she was referring to this like anonymous man. And he like was he felt helpless not being able to do things for her.

SPEAKER_00 1:38:24

Absolutely wild, Chris. Everything that went into this film, amazing that out the product that we get at the end, also amazing, and that's fact or fiction.

SPEAKER_04 1:38:31

Thank you so much for that, Mac. Now, look, folks, we are but four people. There's so much perspective missing from this conversation, and we want to hear yours. This movie isn't faring well on the internet, but hopefully time softens that response because I think even from the hacks that we get in this movie, there's still some compliments and good things to be said for it. As it stands, Entebellum is split. It's earned two hacks and two slashes. We've had a robust discussion here, and it doesn't end here. Please share your perspective with us. Let us know what you thought of this movie, how you perceive it based on your lived experiences. Keep in mind there are a number of ways you can reach out to us, starting with our website, hackerslash.com, and on our social media accounts on Facebook, Instagram, and Twitter.

SPEAKER_01 1:39:12

And if you want to continue the conversation with us and uh share your perspective on this movie, hit us up on our Hackerslash Hotline. Our number is 757-606-0128. You can text us, call us, leave us a voicemail, or an audio message.

SPEAKER_00 1:39:26

And if you have figured out, if you feel this movie is a hack or slash, and you want to tell us more, please do. We want to read it, so send us an email to feedback at hackerslash.com.

SPEAKER_02 1:39:35

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SPEAKER_04 1:39:46

We'll see you next time.

SPEAKER_02 1:39:47

Bye.