SPEAKER_08 0:04

I definitely don't eat people. Greetings and salutations and welcome to Hackerslash. If you're joining us again, welcome back. People will say we're in love. If this is your first time listening, welcome to the party. We are a horror movie review podcast dedicated to telling you whether a movie is a hack, a total joke, a waste of time, or a slash.

SPEAKER_05 0:26

Totally killer, pun intended.

SPEAKER_08 0:28

We believe horror is for everyone, and as such, we're rating these movies with a perspective we've each gained from our varying walks of life and those flavors of fear we tend to fancy most. My name is Chris, I'm your friendly neighborhood slasher enthusiast. This week I'm joined by the Superfly Space Guy Mac.

SPEAKER_05 0:43

Hello, Clarice, the Gore Lover Alexis.

SPEAKER_08 0:45

Hola Muchachos, The Cowardly Creeper Ryan, Mac always steals my intro. And the Scream Queen Paris.

SPEAKER_06 0:52

It puts the lotion on its skin or else it ages terribly.

SPEAKER_08 0:55

We've got a fun one for you this week. The only horror movie to win the Academy Award for Best Picture, actually. But before we dig in, we have some follow-up.

SPEAKER_06 1:04

We recently reviewed a film called Hashtag Alive, and while Chris and I gave it a slash, Ryan gave it a hack, but we wanted to hear from our friends on the internet. So we asked our friends on Twitter and Instagram, and 29% sided with Ryan and hacked the movie, while 71% gave it a slash, which is actually pretty accurate to our ratio here.

SPEAKER_07 1:23

Yeah, I feel pretty good about that. Like 33, one-third of people will not like it.

SPEAKER_06 1:28

Yeah, just about. We have a comment from Tony who said, A thrill ride of a slash. I enjoyed this movie, and contrary to our wonderful skeleton crew this week, I actually liked the ending. The only thing I kept thinking was, dang, this movie should have been called You Must Survive, rather than literally hashtag alive. And that's a really good point.

SPEAKER_07 1:44

Yeah, that would have been better.

SPEAKER_08 1:45

And you're wrong, the ending was terrible. Sorry. That's okay. Anthony has stellar taste otherwise.

SPEAKER_06 1:51

This is true. We also have a comment from our friend Rob who said, listening to the Hacker Slash episode on hashtag alive, this movie is a slash for me. I felt like they made the most of the limited location, and I loved how it was shot. Lots of great questions. Does a bad ending ruin a movie? How much weight can a rope hold? How do water pipes work?

SPEAKER_08 2:09

And to be clear, not a single person has provided these answers yet.

SPEAKER_06 2:12

These are unsolved mysteries. We also actually have a call in to the Hacker Slash Hotline. Chris, roll the tape.

SPEAKER_01 2:19

Hey Hackerslash team, it's Ryan from New Jersey. Trying to think of another name since you guys already have a Ryan, so I will come up with that on the next call, but I'm calling in about the Alive movie, which I watched for your suggestion. I was wondering if anyone got any MM each data convived from the lead character. That's what I wrote down. And I also wanted to get your opinions on the noodle flirting AFMR theme. Is that served anyone but me? Like the theme where they were ingesting the noodles. That was pretty intense. I don't know though. I thought it was a good movie. I thought it was cool, like the quarantine theme, and I thought when he like open the liquor time, it was very reminiscent of recent times here. And the good use of the Falcon here was pretty impactful for me. The ending was kind of a bummer, as you guys pointed out. So I would it would be tough to decide how focused as a hacker slash, but I like hearing the episode and look forward to calling you again soon.

SPEAKER_06 3:19

The cliffhanger that is not giving us a hacker slash result.

SPEAKER_10 3:22

I don't know. Ryan maybe like want to watch it compared to uh the little skeleton crew we had.

SPEAKER_08 3:27

Whoa, whoa, whoa. Ryan, yes, the noodle slurping was very intense. And it's not that it's particularly egregious. They ate noodles like any other normal person would eat noodles, but you could hear every bit of it, and it was a little weird.

SPEAKER_07 3:41

I just want to take a moment to shout out a regular movie watcher out here taking notes like they're like they're on the podcast with us. We appreciate it. Hell yeah.

SPEAKER_06 3:50

I also love that. Um, and can confirm shaved head and bleach hair does give Pete Davidson vibes.

SPEAKER_09 3:56

But not Eminem, because Eminem was before Pete Davidson.

SPEAKER_06 3:59

Uh, I don't know him.

SPEAKER_09 4:00

Oh, okay. You don't know Eminem? Eight Mile? That was a joke because you look like Eminem.

SPEAKER_07 4:05

We get it. You literally look at him right now.

SPEAKER_06 4:07

Oh my god, I refuse to acknowledge any of it.

SPEAKER_07 4:09

Um, I think that our character in Alive was a little bit more stylish, so it goes more Pete Davidson than Eminem, because Eminem was like in the streets. Pete Davidson is like, I got my streetwear on. You know, there's a difference. Okay, okay.

SPEAKER_06 4:22

For sure. We also want to thank Ryan for becoming our latest patron. Uh Ryan, we really appreciate all of the love you've been sending our way, uh, and we look forward to hearing from you in the future.

SPEAKER_07 4:32

Oh, you're welcome.

SPEAKER_06 4:34

I'm talking about Ryan from New Jersey. And that's our follow-up.

SPEAKER_08 4:38

All right. Now, a few weeks ago when we actually covered hashtag alive, we had some dialogue questioning just how much of a horror movie it was. I was of the opinion that zombie movies, no matter what they are, are still horror movies. Now, that is a question that comes up often on this podcast, and time and time again we come to the same conclusion. There are flavors out there for everyone in varying levels of concentration. It's all horror. It's just a matter of it's the right style of horror for you. Now, this week we have a film that while officially categorizes horror, it can actually be seen more as like a psychological thriller or like a uh good old-fashioned detective movie with quite a bit of murder. For nearly two hours, we follow the story of an FBI trainee thrown into the midst of a hunt for a serial killer, and we also see her efforts to enlist the behavioral analysis aid of another prolific killer, one Dr. Hannibal the Cannibal Lector. This week, yes, folks, you've waited for it and it's here. We're talking about the iconic 1991 film, The Silence of the Lambs. Now, this is a rare one that all of us have seen before this episode, but I'm gonna confess something to you folks. I actually didn't see this for the first time until this past summer when my girlfriend sat me down to watch it on a visit. What? Are you joking me right now? Oh no, I know. It's we it's off-brand because I like am really into serial killers in a weird way that might not be normal. And I have nothing against the movie. It's not like it was overhyped and I avoided it. So nothing like that. I just didn't get around to it.

SPEAKER_06 6:08

I mean, better late than never.

SPEAKER_07 6:09

For what it's worth, I hadn't fully watched this movie through one time altogether. So we all have confessions to make here, you know. I've I've seen lots of it, and I think I've seen all of it together at different times.

SPEAKER_08 6:24

It's like a cumulative experience for you.

SPEAKER_07 6:26

Yeah, exactly.

SPEAKER_06 6:27

I will confess that I have seen this movie several many times. Uh, and a few years ago for Halloween, I was Hannah Montana Bolector.

SPEAKER_11 6:35

Please don't tell me what that was.

SPEAKER_08 6:37

Wait, you were a mix, or you're like, what? We have to include the photos because he posted it on Instagram stories this year, and holy shit, it's the best Halloween costume I've ever seen. Oh my god, it's amazing. It was cute. I didn't see it.

SPEAKER_06 6:51

I'll post it again so you guys can see it. Basically, it was uh a Hannah Montana look with a Hannibal Lecter mask, and then it had a little bit of blood coming out the mouth, but it uh it was just a cute little hybrid moment.

SPEAKER_02 7:01

Oh my gosh.

SPEAKER_05 7:02

I too have seen this movie a bazillion times. Like I think I've probably seen it a dozen times, fully from start to finish. One of the best movies ever made, in my opinion. I know that's probably gonna give some stuff away, but but seriously though, like I love this movie, and it's one of those movies I watched, I wouldn't say growing up because it wasn't like five or anything, but in my younger years, that led to me like pursuing psychology when I was in college. So just like had a profound impact of just how cool one behavioral analysis truly is, and two, I don't know, it was just like the mind is crazy, and to see Hannibal Lecter picking apart the mind in this film is is so amazing. I love it.

SPEAKER_07 7:39

Yeah, I think we were all super excited to review this movie.

SPEAKER_09 7:42

Like we all saw it coming up, we're like, yes, yes, yes. Yeah, I definitely I feel like Mac and I are the same person.

SPEAKER_10 7:48

I don't know if I necessarily like went into the psychology field for that, but I don't I just remember one watching this with Abuela. Shout out to her as always, and my parents had this on VHS, and it was one of those movies, like I'd always look because they had like bad not bad movies, but they would have movies around like they were tits in them, next Friday, or you know, like stuff like that. And I was like, or they had the original Friday, but next Friday, but yeah, why'd you skip to the sequel? But um, I would be like, oh wow, I don't know if I can watch this one. And I saw this one, it was just so fascinating to me as a child or a young adult. I don't know at this point. I was probably like really young, but I was like, ooh, this like butterfly, this photo. I mean, just like the um just the cover of this was like amazing. So yeah, it's been with me for a long time, and I know I'm excited for this, and I know a lot of people close to me are excited as well.

SPEAKER_06 8:45

Speaking of amazing covers, in preparation to watch this movie, I was like, you know what? I'll read the book for the first time, give myself a new perspective. What? When I was yeah. Well, actually, one of our Twitter followers, Dre, she's excited about us doing this. Daniel on Twitter also was like, the book is a must-read. So I was like, you know what? I'll read the book. Um, but when I was buying the book, I found that the first edition had the best cover art. I'll show it to you guys. It's like an elegant woman's hand and a mock.

SPEAKER_07 9:12

That's pretty great.

SPEAKER_06 9:12

And no other version of the book actually has that cover. So I was like, God damn, I have to buy the first edition. And everywhere it was like a thousand dollars, but I found it on some weird yardstore website for like 30 bucks. Um but so I've read the book for this coming into it, so I can kind of offer a little bit of perspective around there. But like these movies and books have famously gorgeous cover art.

SPEAKER_07 9:31

Wow, this is a new level of commitment that I both appreciate and was not prepared for. Exactly.

SPEAKER_10 9:36

John Pierce. I'm super excited because I feel like there's a lot of like Reddit threads and things about like the book that are like kind of in the movie, but not really. So I don't know. Maybe um you want to send that over uh to Virginia?

SPEAKER_07 9:49

You should be on a podcast where you talk about movies or something like that.

SPEAKER_11 9:52

You seem very talented.

SPEAKER_06 9:54

We should start a book club. That's our next step.

SPEAKER_11 9:56

Ooh, a hackerslash book club? I love that idea. I'm not prepared.

SPEAKER_08 10:00

So clearly, we have varying levels of experience here. I think this is like a weird the tables have turned moment where I'm probably the least experienced with this movie out of the five of us. But Paris, how is this time for you watching it again and again and again? Watching it now after having read the book.

SPEAKER_06 10:17

Um, it's honestly like a feel-good movie for me. It's like one of those comfort movies that you put on because like, I don't know, we all have those weird movies that you like can watch a million times, or like whenever it's on, you're like, oh, I'm gonna leave this on. Watching it this time, I found myself surprised by really how true to the source material the film was. Like, there's a lot of scenes that are like exactly like word for word as far as dialogue goes. And there were some omissions, but for the most part, like the essence of the book is like truly intact.

SPEAKER_07 10:43

I'm pretty happy to hear that because I think one of the things, uh aside, you know, aside from my jokes, one of the things that can be a deterrent for me from reading a book and watching a movie is how different they can be. So I'm excited to hear I mean anything that's different, but then to hear that it's so similar. I think while watching this movie, I have like a mid-level stress 100% of the time. Like my my heart rate was like 90 or up the whole time. And I'm like, you know, laying on the couch, chilling, but very stressed.

SPEAKER_08 11:17

Very unhannibal of you.

SPEAKER_07 11:18

Yeah, I know, I know. But there's just this like contemplative calmness that comes from this movie while you're also stressed at the same time. I don't know. This movie is complex and it makes you feel lots of things that are quite lovely.

SPEAKER_05 11:31

I can agree that this is a feel-good movie because like feel-good movies are those things that you've seen a million times and you know what's gonna happen, but even then you can still sometimes like feel the the pressure while you're watching like what's going to happen, how are they gonna react, even though you know exactly what's going to happen and how people are going to act. So it's it's it's something that we're if you haven't watched it in a while, you maybe you've forgotten a scene or two. And for me, I don't have to. I can still feel the tension while watching it. So it's it's always a nice like level of tension. The acting, though, is really what gets me while watching this. You're just glued to watching these people perform. It's so good.

SPEAKER_10 12:07

Yeah, it was like super entertaining to watch. And I feel like as many times as I've seen this, I'm picking up on different things, and I get a different vibe every time I'm watching it. Like this time, I was picking up on like more feminist vibes and more like you know, uh, Clarissa's character, and as opposed to, you know, I was focusing, I feel like all on Hannibal the other times, or you know, Buffalo Bill's character, but definitely focused on her a lot of this time and just some of the like cool things Hannibal was saying. I was like, is this a comedy though? Like, so I was like really entertained for the millionth time.

SPEAKER_07 12:41

I am uh thankful that we have uh a small little family of listeners that won't judge us for saying that a movie where a man is cut open and turned into an angel is a feel-good movie. There's a man trying to make a dress from someone's skin or people's skin. Yeah, so that's our that's our feel-good movie here.

SPEAKER_08 12:58

You know, it just warms the cockles of our cold dead hearts. It's it's okay. Cockles.

SPEAKER_05 13:03

Our people understand. Chris, how is this for you watching it just for like the second time?

SPEAKER_08 13:08

So it it's interesting. I think I should first preface by saying, like, I watch a ton of like serial killer documentaries, and psychological thrillers and like true crime fictional thrillers never really excite me. It's like they're fun, like they're good, and I can appreciate them, but they don't like spike my heart rate. I think it's because I'm so oversaturated in like the watching the documentaries, hearing about the survivors and the families of the survivors, the families of the victims, you know, people who lost people. I didn't feel much of anything. What? Don't get it twisted. It's a good movie. Now, don't don't take that for like I didn't feel feelings of enjoyment, but I didn't feel this emotional sus like suspense or pull at my heart. It just felt like another that's not a fair statement, right? Because it's an iconic film and it's really good and really different in a lot of ways, but it didn't hit me the way that surprisingly emotional movies hit me. I think it's just because I walked into this expecting it to be like a serial killer situation. It was different.

SPEAKER_07 14:12

I could not be more different than you in that respect. This is like my favorite type of movie, my favorite type of feeling. Like one of my all-time favorite movies is the movie Seven, and this gives me like the same type of vibe in horror and not just being like a uh law and order SPU.

SPEAKER_09 14:31

Yeah, you're pretty demented. If that's like one of your favorite movies, because it's pretty sick.

SPEAKER_05 14:37

Seven is an amazing film.

SPEAKER_09 14:39

Yeah, I mean it's kind of in the dark the whole time. It's kind of in the dark. Other than that, I don't know why I'm talking like Saws are my favorite, but yeah, exactly. Seven's so real though.

SPEAKER_08 14:50

I love it so much. It's Morgan Freeman. See, I don't know. I just feel like movies like Seven just don't really do anything for me. I don't know. I think it's uh it's it's weird. It's so weird, I know. Because it's not like I dislike any of it. Like it's like a oh yeah, that's it, yeah, it's good. It's good. So a little underwhelming since it doesn't do it for you. I wouldn't say even underwhelming. It's just perfectly uh serviceable, and that's it is what it is. And I'm not I'm saying that about seven. I'm not saying about this movie. Just medium whelmed, straight up whelmed, not under, not over, just it was an experience and uh let's just tell the tale. That's that's about it. But I will say this because there was a different layer of context there for me. This movie endured significant controversy, right? And I've heard so much about this movie. It's not like any of it was like surprising. I heard so much about like the antagonists in this movie, I heard so much about Hannibal Lecter, you hear all these famous quotes. And this movie was even protested when it won so many Academy Awards because it was perceived as being as having harmful framing of the LGBTQ plus community. And I've heard so much about Buffalo Bill, and that built up like such an image in my mind of what was to come that I was actually surprised and shocked at how his story actually plays out. So there's a lot to unpack when it comes to that, and we'll do so in the second half, but it was such a surprise, and given the ability to see it for the first time in a completely different social climate than when it was released, it added this layer of context and helped me see it in a completely different way than I anticipated. So I think that's why I wasn't feeling the things that you guys were feeling and like the suspense crime of it all, because I was more like, holy shit, this is just not what I was expecting.

SPEAKER_06 16:30

Hmm. I am definitely looking forward to having that conversation in the spoiler section. I'd say for the most part, I was one pleasantly surprised that the movie still like can give me chills in certain scenes. Like there's moments in this that I have memorized, and every time I see it performed, I'm still just like, ugh, you know. Uh so I'm really glad that this movie's like stood the test of time for me. I have a few small disappointments that I didn't have before reading the book. Um, there's a couple changes where I was like, why did we do that? Um, we can talk a little bit more about those later, but for the most part, I'm feeling good.

SPEAKER_07 17:05

Paris, I have to agree. I I think what you're getting at is that there's not much that's actually, I think, surprising or disappointing in this movie. At least that's how I felt. Like I'm pleased with everything, and and uh, you know, there's a predictability to things because you know what's happening. Um I'm I'm I'm perfectly happy saying that I don't have a surprise or disappointment here. It's you know, just so good.

SPEAKER_09 17:30

I was surprised at watching this for the so many amount of time, like that like Anthony Hopkins still does just like a fantastic job.

SPEAKER_10 17:41

Like it's still like still scary, still sticks with you today. But um, I don't know, I was really disappointed because like I I think there you can talk about like especially when you're talking about antagonists and serial killers and all this sort of stuff. And this is like totally my like what I went to school for this, and people talk about nature versus nurture and everything like that, and they touch on it a little bit for Buffalo Bill, and I just really wish they would have like delve into the psychology a little bit more, but that's just me. Um, but I realize it's a two-hour movie, it would have been three, but you want to see the Buffalo Bill spinoff. Oh my god, yeah.

SPEAKER_06 18:17

Yeah, they go pretty deep in the book.

SPEAKER_10 18:19

Oh, okay. I okay, I'm ordering this tonight. I really am. Hopefully it's on Amazon. I don't need the special edition. Get it on Audible, you know? Okay, here's my thing with Audible. I like listening to things, I don't pay attention half the time on Audible. That's true.

SPEAKER_09 18:33

So it's got to be something that's like usually nonfiction.

SPEAKER_08 18:35

Yeah.

SPEAKER_09 18:36

But I'm like, uh, I could take this advice or I could leave it.

SPEAKER_08 18:39

Oh, I love Audible. I watch I listen to the novelization of Halloween. I listen to Pet Cemetery. A lot of the books that I that I have, I'll listen to it on Audible first, and then if I love it, I'll buy a hard copy of it.

SPEAKER_10 18:51

Chris, can I get your um is there any way you can share your profile? Or like I just want to see what she has in there. I can send you a screenshot.

SPEAKER_05 18:59

Relating to what surprised you, Alexis, I think what surprised me was like two things. One was how deliberate the small details were of Anthony Hopkins' performance in this film. There's like small things you can pick up on that he that he's doing that are just so insane that like if you watch it the first time through and you don't pick it up, you watch it the fifth time through, you don't pick it up. But like later on, you can like really focus on things he's doing with his eyes.

SPEAKER_10 19:24

Yes, his eyes. It's crazy.

SPEAKER_05 19:26

Things he's doing with his voice that are really impressive. But I think the second thing that surprised me was actually how little the the amount of time is that we get with the two main characters together in the same room. Because your brain has these like constructed memories where you're remembering like an hour-long conversation, but in reality, there's only like a couple scenes that they're even together, and you're watching it again thinking like, oh holy crap, there's so much more to this film that I just like completely forgot about.

SPEAKER_08 19:49

So so true.

SPEAKER_06 19:50

Because that's the soul of the movie, is those moments.

SPEAKER_08 19:53

Now, I I have a very specific question here because Ryan, I get the impression that maybe you were scared.

SPEAKER_07 20:00

I think part of it is like built up in my head because I've always thought uh I uh Silence of the Lambs, like Hannibal Hector is just so creepy. Like he there's nothing about him that's kosher, and even when you like are, you know, maybe not afraid of him, then he'll immediately start hitting you with some real creepy comments and uh he he hits you deep where it hurts, you know. He doesn't he doesn't play around.

SPEAKER_09 20:25

He makes you feel like fucking shit.

SPEAKER_07 20:26

Yeah, he really does, and he's really good at it, he's good at it because he knows your background, and he's like so charming, and you're like, oh man, we love we love Hannibal Lecter. And then he ruins your day. So uh and then he sticks up for you again. You know, it's all just very strange. He plays a lot of games, but I generally just have stress about this this movie and uh honestly the whole series. So I went in pretty scared. Like I said, my heart rate was up. I checked it quite a bit on my Apple Watch. I was literally 90 and up for almost the whole movie. Um, so it's like a dull fear that comes from this movie, and it it is all gonna depend on who you are because it's not like it's you know, there's not a lot of jump scares, not a lot to scare you, but I think it's scary.

SPEAKER_06 21:08

I love what you mentioned about just the level of constant stress you feel throughout this movie, Ryan, because there's really this present ticking clock as the story progresses. Like things are getting crazy and something has to happen, and you're kind of like waiting for it all to unravel. Uh, so that's a really, I think, a strong uh feature of this movie. It's the ability to build that tension over a two-hour span. Um, I can't say that I've ever been afraid watching these movies. I remember the first time I saw it, I kind of in a weird way felt seen by like all three of the main characters. I was like, oh, okay. So I'm not totally crazy because like I'm not like this. Um, but in some ways I can kind of relate to each of the each of the three characters in this, despite two of them being uh quite insane.

SPEAKER_07 21:53

Yeah, it's a little questionable. It's okay.

SPEAKER_05 21:55

I think a constant level of stress is a is a good descriptor for this film because obviously I don't. Find it scary. I I rarely find anything scary, but it does make you feel kind of on edge while watching it, especially if it's your first time. I think it's something where you're gonna watch it and feel like, oh my god, like what's gonna happen? What craziness is gonna ensue? And they save so much of it for later in the film that when things happen, I can just imagine a first viewing of this just being like, oh my god, like what's about to go down, especially in the early 90s. Because I feel like now we've seen uh we've seen all of this like on TV, it's like no big deal. But in in 1991, like how much of this was fresh, because I think it's probably a good portion of it, seemed like really new and really crazy and real wild. And I think that really shows like in in how many awards it won.

SPEAKER_09 22:41

Yeah, I think cannibalism was like a like I'm sure it'd been on film, but I don't think it'd been on film and in a type that would be viewable to the masses.

SPEAKER_10 22:53

I mean, yeah, if you're in horror and you love those kind of movies, I'm sure cannibalism's been existing for a while, but not something that's been out to like to public and having all of these, you know, famous actors and actresses in it, and um just having this like strong like background um to have it. So I think it was put out, and it's like to me that would have been scary as heck seeing someone's nose bitten off on film.

SPEAKER_09 23:18

I'd be like, what?

SPEAKER_10 23:19

But yeah, you're right. I feel like we're all like at least at this point, I'm desensitized, but still, it still has this sort of fear. But I think it's more like I've seen people that have eye contact and make eye contact like Hannibal Lecter does, and it's the creepiest shit ever.

SPEAKER_08 23:33

Yeah, I uh I don't know. I feel like I'm I'm like disappointingly vanilla tonight with my like uh experience with this movie. It's just like it's definitely the desensitized thing. So when I was little, I watched this documentary on Albert Fish. Are you all familiar with Albert Fish? Nope. No. Albert Fish is like the OG Hannibal in a sense. Uh he's like this super old man, looks like a grandfather, shows up just at this family's house, expecting to hire their son for something, and he had like targeted the son, instead sees the the boy's little sister, like very young sister, and he convinces the parents, and this is like in the 19 early 1900s, he convinces the parents to let him take her to his granddaughter's birthday. He ends up killing her, cooking her, eating her, mailing the family a letter describing that experience. So I saw that documentary, and it gave me nightmares, and I think it really has just like ruined my ability to experience things in a way that I feel like would be fun to experience with these kind of movies. Yeah, that would mess my ass up too. I'm like traumatized, low-key, no big deal.

SPEAKER_10 24:45

That would like I'd be thinking about that forever.

SPEAKER_08 24:47

But here's the thing, right? Like, where I didn't spend so much time, like feeling this tension for Hannibal or worrying about Clarice and Buffalo Bill, I felt like this entirely different element of the movie. And I know this movie's also very famous for this, but it's long and there are a lot of moments that linger, but I think this does differently from other true crime psychological thrillers kind of movies. It takes this approach and lingers in all the moments that made the casual misogyny all the more palpable, right? And that's not something I usually want to linger in, but it's like so perfectly balanced to reinforce Clarice's character. She's unwavering, and it's interesting because as much as the plot in this movie is soaked in and like points at the male gaze, we still follow it as her story. And it just it feels very different for me in that regard.

SPEAKER_09 25:40

Yeah, I'm glad that you mentioned that, Chris, because that's exactly the point of view I took while watching the movie this time around. So it was, I mean, that put the nail on the head.

SPEAKER_10 25:48

It just that lingers on those moments where you're like, WTF, is this a thing? Um, and then I I don't know. It's just like a good, uncomfortable, so you can build Clarice's character. And that was like my fate. I mean, we'll talk about this later, but one of my favorite parts of the movie was seeing her character development and honestly seeing myself in her a little bit.

SPEAKER_08 26:14

Still very much a thing, just a little bit more concealed now. Yeah, we truly are all Clarice.

SPEAKER_11 26:19

Yes, we are.

SPEAKER_08 26:20

I know we all have that first day.

SPEAKER_06 26:22

The casual misogyny is definitely something that's really present in the book. Um, and in the book, you have the benefit of getting like Clarice's inner monologue and seeing the way she like thinks about the men around her after like a lifetime of this shit is like very entertaining. Uh, and I would love if like any of you girls read it, I would love to see like how accurate you feel that is from your perspective. Um, because as a reader, like being male, I was like, this feels very real. This feels like what it's probably like to have to deal with these idiot men all the time just to get like a head in your field.

SPEAKER_10 26:52

Do they also go into her character a little bit more like in her dad and stuff like that? Yes, okay.

SPEAKER_07 26:57

I'm please enjoy this uh music break while we buy something from Amazon.

SPEAKER_06 27:02

This movie's definitely very original. It's using one serial killer to catch another, and also it's like a very like classy kind of bougie cannibal, which is a wild juxtaposition for somebody to concoct because it's like so primitive and like so sophisticated.

SPEAKER_07 27:16

Yes, but like what about the movie is original? Because like we get, you know, like there's plenty of these stories that exist either in documentaries or in fictional, you know, crime shows and stuff like that.

SPEAKER_09 27:32

I don't know. Yeah, same. That's where I'm at. That's where I'm at. That's where I'm exactly where I'm at.

SPEAKER_07 27:38

I uh yeah, you may have a good point because I know that a lot of the like crime stuff that I've consumed has definitely come after this. Yeah, I mean, you know, well, uh am I trying to say that Silence of the Lambs is not original? No, but I am here to pose the questions, okay? I don't have answers, but I have questions.

SPEAKER_05 27:56

I'll take your questions, and I'm not gonna answer them, but I will say that this movie feels very original because I relate it back to the early viewings that I had, you know, earlier in life. And I didn't watch it when it first came out. I would have been way too young to do that and to see it in theater or to see it as soon as it came out on VHS. I'm not like Alexis, you know, wasn't five years old or something watching it or eight years old, whatever I would have been. But it is this really unique viewing of predation on screen, like seeing the animal as a as a human being, and but seeing them like you mentioned, having this sense of just they're really cunning and you like them. I mean, this is this is a villain that we love and we don't know why. Like you probably would be like, sure, I'll come over for dinner, as long as somebody else gets to come over with me, and you wouldn't even know why you would do it. You would just be like, I have to be there, I just need to be in that presence. But I I also think that we get you know Clarice on screen is something that everyone can also relate to as well. So it's it's so well balanced for me that it doesn't feel like any other film.

SPEAKER_10 29:01

I see where you're coming from in that, and I think because I've seen so many Hannibal spin-offs, you know. We talked about this in our last Saw episode that you know there is a Hannibal TV show, which is freaking amazing. I think it's pretty original. Like I have to put myself because I think I've seen all of this. I've actually seen documentaries that type behavioral, you know, the behavioral science unit when it first came about. And like I've seen, I'm like, wow, are they all intertwined? But they're all like 10, 12 years apart.

SPEAKER_07 29:29

Yeah.

SPEAKER_10 29:29

Yeah, they are. So I have to put myself in that perspective. But I feel like, yeah, when I watched it when I was younger, it really felt like something different. It's felt like, I mean, I don't know who's eating people like that, but then you're like, oh, but he's catching another killer. So I kind of like it. He's kind of cool, he's kind of very interesting. He might be someone I might date, actually.

SPEAKER_06 29:51

Wow.

SPEAKER_10 29:53

What the fuck, Alexis? Okay, maybe not. I wouldn't want to date him. He would just be very attractive because it's good conversation and it's good food.

SPEAKER_08 30:01

You are saying Hannibal the cannibal is attractive, not physically, but specifically because he's a fucking serial killer.

SPEAKER_06 30:10

His personality is charming.

SPEAKER_10 30:12

No, the his other traits, not at that part.

SPEAKER_09 30:15

If I didn't know him and he was talking, well, one, I would probably not be on the same level as his own conversation, but uh he would point out stuff about you and you would be like, Oh, I'm gonna die. I would give him 10, uh, not 10 bucks. I gave him a hundred bucks, like, thanks for the therapy lesson. I'm freaking out.

SPEAKER_07 30:32

He'd be like, So this is why you do this, and you'd be like, Oh man, uh, you're right. I have to go.

SPEAKER_09 30:37

Thank you. You're actually right. I did not go on a date for you to tell me about myself. You'll never stop thinking about it ever.

SPEAKER_07 30:43

You're right. I do say like too much. You're right. I do have toxic traits.

SPEAKER_10 30:48

I get me in bad relationships. I mean, you bite people's faces, but no, it's okay. I it's cool.

SPEAKER_11 30:54

I can totally forgive that. Just bite something else. Very cool.

SPEAKER_08 30:59

Hello. I don't know that I've ever been so concerned for you in my life. This is like setting up the third season of you.

SPEAKER_05 31:06

Yeah.

SPEAKER_08 31:07

It actually is.

SPEAKER_05 31:08

You're the target on the third season of you. That's what's gonna happen.

SPEAKER_10 31:11

I'm the target.

SPEAKER_05 31:12

Yeah, you're you're his new fixation.

SPEAKER_11 31:14

I will totally be his. He's hot. So speaking of you, I love the ending of this movie.

SPEAKER_07 31:21

I think it's so great.

SPEAKER_05 31:23

Are you saying that because you has horrible endings or oh no, I was being I was being a Mac. A comically unrelated segue.

SPEAKER_07 31:29

Yes, exactly. Unrelated to anything. But also, I was asking you a question. Did you guys like the ending?

SPEAKER_08 31:36

Actually, the ending is one of my favorite parts of this movie. The last visual that we get, so good.

SPEAKER_07 31:41

So good, so tropical, quite enjoyable, you know, little little tan vibes.

SPEAKER_08 31:46

I also love that uh saying so tropical is gonna be so confusing for anyone who hasn't seen this movie yet.

SPEAKER_06 31:51

Exactly. If you haven't seen this movie, it's hard to talk about the ending. Let's just say it's a it's a psychological thrill ride to the end. Um, and there are some very satisfying developments.

SPEAKER_10 32:02

I like the twist. Um, kind of gets me. I mean, at this point, doesn't get me every time, but this time I was like, oh, interesting. Yeah, I did forget because it's been like two weeks since I last saw it. I really like the ending. Even if it's I don't know, I feel like it's one of those, and this might tie back to the originality, but I'm sure there's been twist endings before. But I feel like to me, OG twist ending. OG, like, oh, what just happened? If this is your first or second time seeing it. I don't know, Chris.

SPEAKER_09 32:32

I don't know if you believe in that.

SPEAKER_08 32:35

1991 OG twist ending? Nah. But it was a good ending.

SPEAKER_06 32:39

The very first twist.

SPEAKER_08 32:40

I would say that this is a solid, solid ending for sure. It's like probably my favorite ending of a crime-related movie I've ever seen.

SPEAKER_05 32:49

I don't think it's important to focus on twists. You know, I don't I don't think it was that much of a twist. Obviously, it's kind of it's kind of surprising, let's say, but the whole denois is amazing. Like from I don't even know where it begins, like the last 20 or 30 minutes of it, maybe. I mean, it's it's pretty good. And there's some moments in there that I think will catch you by surprise, like just like really quick flashes where you're just like, oh, caught off guard, and now you have to catch up, and that makes it pretty effective. But I think when you make your way to the very end of this film, it's like Pear said, it's so satisfying when you get there. And I don't know why we love this character. I mean, this character is is an animal, yet it's just something to behold on screen. It's like watching a Wolverine take down its prey. There's just something about it that you it's nice to be able to watch it on the screen and not have to be there in person and deal with it.

SPEAKER_06 33:40

I feel like it's not like watching a Wolverine take down its prey, but like an Olympic figure skater take down its prey.

SPEAKER_05 33:46

That's right. If if vampires were Olympic figure skaters and were so graceful, that would be kind of the closest thing.

SPEAKER_08 33:53

That's amazing. Sounds like an upcoming episode of What We Do in the Shadows. So maybe we should just have our own little writers' room here. We start pitching ideas out to the good shows we love. Clearly, we've had a lot of high praise here. So I think we're gonna make quick work of the scoring segment. But before we get there, Alexis, how many people actually died in this movie?

SPEAKER_10 34:12

This is one of those movies where it's like you see bodies, you don't, you you know, there at their bodies are everywhere in this one. So I'm really counting. And we're talking about bodies that died in the movie during the runtime.

SPEAKER_07 34:23

Yes.

SPEAKER_10 34:24

It's always been like that, but I just want to make a clear distinction because sometimes some bodies appear, and I don't want people to think like I was neglecting those bodies because I would never do such a thing.

SPEAKER_08 34:34

Alexis loves all her bodies. This is a very specific tally of a certain group of bodies. Yes, and I love my heads too. We all know. It's okay.

SPEAKER_10 34:42

So we have a total of seven in this movie. I know hard to believe, right? Because you're like, Did I see anyone that's die? A lot higher than I thought it was. Exactly. I can't wait to talk about it. Because clearly there's a discrepancy on what you see and what you don't see.

SPEAKER_08 34:56

The real question, though, and that's burning on everyone's mind, especially those who haven't seen this movie before, is it animal friendly? How's the animal report sounds of the lambs?

SPEAKER_07 35:04

Well, I think it depends on what you consider Migs to be. Generally speaking, there's some sketchy moments, but we we have a clean animal report. Migs, however, he's in question.

SPEAKER_05 35:15

There's a let's say there's a moment. There's a scary moment if you're an animal lover.

SPEAKER_08 35:19

Yeah. Right. Well, now that you know you can watch this in safety and don't worry about seeing any lambs dying on screen. Let's go ahead and get into the rating of this movie, The Silence of the Lambs from 1991. Was it a hack or a slash?

SPEAKER_10 35:31

I guess I'll go first. I'm giving this a slash. I don't think I need to say much, but I know. I just love this movie. And I think it it's so weird that you couldn't watch a movie multiple times and still be super satisfied with it, know what's going on, and still being not surprised, but just getting the same emotions that you either got or even different emotions. And I think every time I can pick out a different part that I like about this movie or something that I can like I would want to change or something I don't like necessarily. Not that it's a bad movie. I just think I'm like, man, I didn't like that that they did that. But it wasn't a thing that they did on purpose. It was just something that, you know, I don't know. It's just a thing. It doesn't turn you off from it. Yeah, it doesn't turn me off for sure. And it wasn't something that they did bad, like, oh, it wasn't like, you know, there was the teleprompter was in like the room. I I don't know. It wasn't something like that. But um, I don't know, it just has this significance, and I think in a lot of people's lives, that's super cool for a horror movie to have. And I'm just really excited because we've actually, I feel like haven't re reviewed a movie like this before. So to me, it's just super exciting, and clearly it's iconic, so I have to give it a slash.

SPEAKER_06 36:43

I couldn't agree more, Alexis. This movie is totally iconic. Um, I talk often about like my favorite horror movies of all time, but this is actually like probably my top 15 or 20 movies of all time, regardless of genre. Um, I feel like it does so many interesting things really well. The cinematography in this movie is like really artful. The acting is just chilling at times. Jodie Foster, it's this is one of the reasons I love Jodie Foster so much because of her performance in this. And you just kind of see a story unfold between these like three major forces in the world, and seeing how they like dance around each other throughout this is very enthralling, I guess is the best way to describe it. And having read the book, I now have a new favorite book. Uh, it's definitely a really great read that I recommend anybody that enjoyed this movie, give the book a read. I'm actually circling back and reading Red Dragon now, and then I'll finish the franchise when I'm done. Um, but this is a total slash, it's one of my favorite movies. It's very uh rich in quality, and this, unlike Alien, is deserving of its place in the Library of Congress.

SPEAKER_05 37:48

Obviously, I d disagree. I think they both deserve their place. But I will agree that this movie is a hundred percent a slash. And I think if you haven't seen it, you are missing out. Like, like Alexa said, this is an icon. This is something that's so classic. It is legitimately one of the best movies ever made, I think. With some of the best acting ever put on screen from multiple characters. I mean, there the actors in this, like, I know they got some awards in some cases, but they definitely deserve them because of the work that they put in. It is fantastic to watch. It's got amazing visuals, the sound is is fantastic, the lighting is so impressive. And we'll deep, you know, we'll get in deeper um in the spoiler section, but every moment, every little thing about this, like you said, Varys, it's rich. It feels like one of those meals where you just don't want it to end while you're eating it because it's it's so good, but it's not something you can eat every day, you know, because it's it's so fantastic. It's a Thanksgiving. That's true. You you run out of those, apparently. But but no, it's it's in my in my brain a hundred percent. A slash, and one of those films that I grew up watching multiple times, probably multiple times per year, to be honest. Another one was The Cell. I don't know if any of you will watch that. That is a fucked up movie, 100%, but also an amazing movie. And usually, yeah. One of those things that really got me interested in like seeing how you know abnormal psychology lives in the world, and that was my favorite course in in college. Obviously, psychology is like really interesting, but it's very scientific and very medical in some cases. But the abnormal stuff is just so perplexing and so interesting to dive into. And this is this is not procedural, you know, in this film. It's not like, oh, it's a documentary, we're going, you know, from start to finish and figure out what happened and why they did it. It's like we're just seeing humans being humans on screen and then learning along the way why they're acting like this. But even though you don't get all the answers in the film, and maybe the book has more of them. I don't know if I need them. You know, I I just I like seeing this little segment of their of their lives, but it total slash.

SPEAKER_07 39:57

Yeah, if you didn't uh gather from all that, Mac is madly in love with this movie. Um, and I can't blame him. Obviously, this is a slash. I came into tonight knowing that this would be a big love fest for us with this movie, right? Like I I don't actually know for sure that Chris is gonna slash it, but I will quit the podcast if she doesn't. Um so this might be my last episode. You'll find out in a couple of minutes here. But I think there's just so much that so much that goes into this movie that you have to love. And I know that it's probably not for everyone, but I've realized this is my genre. This is my spot, this is where I like to be. I do love horror, but if this is more of a psychological thriller, uh, and then I started to compare it to like some other things that I love, like I said, like seven and stuff like that. This is like my like prime spot, and I love it. I love Clarice. I am Jodie Foster. Okay. Like there's a moment where she has to like act really quickly, like for the first time, and like make things happen, and she's like shaking and like stressing, like barely making it happen. And I'm like, this is everything I've ever done ever. Here's what I love. I love that she's not like I hate men and I'm a strong independent woman. She's just, I'm here and I'm doing my thing and I'm gonna do whatever I want to do. And I'm gonna make it through, no matter how trash you are, Mr. Crawford. I want you to die personally, not Jodie Foster. That's just my personal feelings. I just love it. I think, again, things we've already said, the acting, the filming, the movie's incredible. I don't feel that this is derogatory towards the LGBTQ plus community. I I mean, we're gonna talk about it more, but I don't see it. I think that it's a different thing, and I hope that I'm right in that feeling. I don't know, but it's just to me, there's there's no flaws in this movie, to be honest. It's not perfect, but there's no flaws if that's a thing. It's an amazing slash.

SPEAKER_08 41:53

So clearly, I mean, there's been a lot of high praise on this movie going around, and you know, I'm not gonna be a dead horse. This movie is incredible. It's it's immaculate and it's tight in its performances, its cinematography, it's lighting, you know, the the screenplay adaptation clearly sounds like it has a lot of fidelity there, and that's something to admire. It's such a pitfall for so many other movies. This movie is just a good movie. And I think, you know, when we when we talked in the hashtag alive episode, I feel like alive is more of a horror movie than this is. But this is a specific flavor of horror that is a good gateway drug to bring people into the genre, I feel. It's a good experience. You know, my girlfriend who doesn't even like horror movies made me watch this with her and have that shared experience. So it's still a movie that can bring people together. If you're someone who is trying to, you know, bring a friend or a family member into the horror genre and they're already into true crime. This is such an easy no-brainer. This is a great option for that. And the and the really cool thing is that I had to watch Jodie Foster in The Accused as part of like this thing I was working through in the Navy, and her performance in that was incredible and powerful and moving. So to see her from that, and that was, I think, you know, chronologically, it was the last movie I happened to watch her in. To so to see her go from that movie to this movie and see her performance as Clarice, it's all the richer for it. So I absolutely love it. I mean it's a universal slash. I'm not gonna, I'm not gonna be different, Ryan. I know you're nervous there for a second. I'm not as moved by this movie as so many of you are, but it's undeniably a great movie. And with that, The Silence of the Lambs has earned a universal slash. Now, this movie recently enjoyed a Netflix run. It was on Netflix when I watched it over the summer. But you can now find it available for either rent or purchase on your streaming platforms.

SPEAKER_10 43:37

Pretty sure they uh know when we're about to do a lineup and they take all the movies off Netflix. So true.

SPEAKER_08 43:43

But what you can find on Netflix is Red Dragon. Good luck if you get to watch the last 10 minutes, because mine refuses to this day to let me watch it. But check it out, join us in the second half so we can dig deeper into the fact that Alexis thinks Hannibal, the cannibal, is ideal boyfriend material.

SPEAKER_04 44:03

Do you have trouble finding your size off the rack? Are you on the hunt for quality handmade leather goods? Come to Buffalo Bills Bargain Basement. We offer custom tailoring, hand-stitched artisanal leather goods, great prices, and a personal level of customer service not offered anywhere else. Would you buy from me? I'd buy from me. I'd buy from me so hard.

SPEAKER_08 44:29

Welcome back, folks. You are now entering the spoiler zone for the Silence of the Lambs, which racked up a universal slash. We have a lot to get to here. You know, there's a lot to unpack. What with the psychology of everything? But before we get into the specifics of all that business, we got some gore to get to. Alexis, what is the gore score for this movie?

SPEAKER_10 44:47

Well, there's lots of heads and lots of skins, I can tell you that for sure. It's like shirts and skins playing up in here. But even better. I mean, you see heads, you see skins. It's great. I think for this time, like I think, you know, we're all like super subjective now, at least I am, um, to gore. But this really, to me, for the time, it's pretty gory. And for someone who's like biting people's nose off, you know, making them super angelic and spreading, you know, disemboweling them. And, you know, it's kind of crazy, you know, putting a head in a jar and then like, you know, making it real life and putting all the stuff on it. And it's crazy. It's not necessarily known to be like super bloody. This movie, it definitely has scenes that are like super gory. And when we were reviewing Saw 3 with Jordan, we had both had seen the Hannibal series. And, you know, I implore people who want more gore, who want this, you know, I think Hannibal has this crazy, like, kind of like, excuse the language, like fucked up mentality for like doing like weird things to people. Like eating them is the basic necessity for him. He's like, you stabbing someone, Michael Myers, is the equivalent of him eating them. So it's just like, you know, it's you know, same, same, like it's whatever. It's it's the day-to-day that Hannibal does. It's chill. But when, yeah, it's just chill. But like when Hannibal, like, when you really like get to know him, he's like doing these intricate things. He's making this like angel out of this human. And it's crazy. So like I said, I implore anyone who like wants to know more about that and wants to like explore more of that. I I really suggest that you watch Hannibal the series because literally every episode goes through these like crazy things, um, either that Hannibal's doing or someone that they're catching, um, that's a bad guy, is doing these really messed up things to bodies that I've never seen done in my life before. So, like things I I can't even fathom.

SPEAKER_07 46:53

See, I think part of the reason I can enjoy this movie as much as I do is that we don't get terrifier on screen, you know? Because this is, I mean, he's a psychopath. Like he goes hard. Hannibal goes hard, uh, but we don't see it. And so it makes it like it makes it more palatable, I think, even though I like some gore. I'm not a Lexus here, but I think I could I don't know if I can handle I guess I'll have to watch Hannibal on Netflix and see. I'm telling you, you gotta be in a mood because it's so dark. Which mood are you in? I mean, like, I'm always in a dark mood. We're good. Um I don't know if I'm prepared. That's my point. I think this movie is so great because it is palatable for everyone. Like, I think if you're more into the gore or if you're not into gore, I feel like you can find a spot in this movie no matter what, you know?

SPEAKER_05 47:44

This is like when you order some food and you're like, I want a little spicy, right? Sure, you can get the extra spicy that burns you, but no, you this is this is really mainstream because it's got a little bit of the spice, enough to make it fun, enough to make things interesting, but it doesn't take it to the extreme.

SPEAKER_07 47:59

Hannibal is like spicy at a uh at an Indian restaurant.

SPEAKER_05 48:04

Yeah, this isn't mayonnaise level. This this isn't boring. Like they do show you some pretty messed up stuff, but we don't have to watch it necessarily happening on screen in front of us. So it it does make it really easy to watch if you're more of a a mainstream viewer. If the psychological thriller part of this is what appeals to you and not the horror and the and the gore. So it I think I see what you're saying, Ryan, that it's it's not to the extreme where where gore heads are gonna be like, oh yeah, I like I need this. Yeah. Right. Which is which is good and bad. Like if that's your thing, this is not gonna tickle all the places that you want to be tickled.

SPEAKER_08 48:37

But it did, though. It right you must have been in a good mood for that tickling, though, because if we could quantify the amounts of gore in this movie and it was like in another movie, then I feel like you wouldn't have been as tickled.

SPEAKER_05 48:49

Right.

SPEAKER_08 48:50

Had it not been Anthony Hopkins doing the tickling, can tickle all he wants.

SPEAKER_10 48:54

But um, where is this going? No, what I'm saying is like I think his brutality is kind of crazy because like it's there's this the one scene where he's beating um one of the sergeants or the officers, like the police officer, like with the baton, and the look in his eyes, like Max talked about the eyes, like it's the look in his eyes, and it's crazy. It's like like to me, that's like more horrific because this movie is like to me grounded in a little bit of real life. Like, there's people like that out here there, than a terrifier would be or a jigsaw would be, but slightly a jigsaw. But uh I don't know.

SPEAKER_08 49:31

I feel like you know, I actually clocked this movie when things start picking up a little bit. It is an hour and 17 minutes until you get Hannibal being Hannibal. You get Hannibal as, you know, the subdued imprisoned doctor, but it once he's like Hannibal to Cannibal, it's an hour and 17 minutes in. And it it takes a little while to get there. I feel like once you get there, that is horror, right? Like that is the horror movie segment of all of this, and it's you know, less than half of it, which it's it's an interesting ratio, it's not bad. I think you know, we talk about like terror being the promise of the pain and horror being the promise fulfilled, it takes a while to get there. But once we get it, whoo! That blood eagle was nuts.

SPEAKER_06 50:15

Blood eagle.

SPEAKER_10 50:16

I know you mentioned like it's it's pretty far in, like, and it's crazy, but like my thing is is some of the things I can imagine are a little bit worse than actually what I saw. So when they're going through Frederica's body and shlarice like looks and you're like, oh shit, it must be bad. She's like, but then you're like, but Clarice is like in this character development. You're like, is she just being like, you know, it's her first body she saw? You don't know this, but then like as she's describing it, you know, she's like this muzzle stamp, you know, this star-shaped incision. Like, I'm just like, what the hell was done to this body? And like that's worse than like seeing this bald eagle, you know, you got going on.

SPEAKER_11 51:03

Bald eagle.

SPEAKER_06 51:05

This bloody bald eagle, too.

SPEAKER_07 51:07

Same, same.

SPEAKER_05 51:08

So I I I think I see where you're coming from, though, that where the intensity of Hannibal Lecter feels like it amps up the gore, even though the gore is is not as high as we get in other films. Because we don't get it like happening necessarily on screen, it's like alluded to or it's shown after it's already occurred, but because it was so intense, like the buildup, it feels like it's crazier than we're used to in other horror films that have like a high level of core. And it's it's super effective because I mean Anthony Hopkins he does so many deliberate things in the film to establish Hannibal as being very scary, like with his eyes specifically, he's mimicking like lizards uh who only blink when they decide to.

SPEAKER_02 51:48

What?

SPEAKER_05 51:49

Yeah, like they don't have to blink. It's like, oh, I'm gonna blink right now. And if you watch it, you'll notice like he doesn't blink until he like decides it's time to blink.

SPEAKER_10 51:56

So he doesn't get like dry eyes or anything.

SPEAKER_05 51:58

Apparently not. He's insane.

SPEAKER_08 52:00

What he's saying is Anthony Hopkins as Hannibal the Cannibal is the Illuminati. The lizard people running the government, or is also one of his people, a droid.

SPEAKER_05 52:12

The other the other things that he does like make it really scary, the things he does with like his lips, the things he does with a gentle caress of a finger on Clarice's finger. And it's just like a small thing, but it makes it seem so intense because it's so deliberate, and you know that like Hannibal is planning constantly and thinking everything that he could do to somebody every moment of the day.

SPEAKER_10 52:35

And to me, this is satisfying. I wasn't asking for more.

SPEAKER_06 52:39

I think you get a very less is more quality from this movie. Um, and my favorite kill is actually gonna go to one of the more underrated ones, and probably only because I read the book, because in the movie I never really cared for this kill at all, but it's actually Miggs. The reason I like it is because Hannibal Lecter kills this man by talking to him and convincing him to kill himself and swallow his own tongue. And in the book, you get like a sort of conversation between uh Lecter and Clarice where they really do like a full-on psychological breakdown of Miggs and determine that he's like not beyond saving, but the system has just failed him. Um, and really the reason that Hannibal Lecter got him to kill himself was because he was rude to Clarice, and at this point he's just like very fond of Clarice and he doesn't tolerate rudeness. So being able to murder somebody uh while being locked in a prison cell and nowhere uh in physical contact with them is quite powerful.

SPEAKER_10 53:35

Did um they go in the book into the conversation or like what he had said to him?

SPEAKER_06 53:39

They didn't go into that, but they went into things that they had talked about previously and like things that Lecter as a doctor had observed as far as like the the degradation of his mental state, just being his neighbor in the in the prison.

SPEAKER_10 53:51

Interesting. I I I would love to know what he said.

SPEAKER_05 53:54

I'm gonna take things in a different direction because my my favorite kill is actually Buffalo Bill. Great kill being shot by Clarice. Great kill because there's that buildup to it happening where you're if you've never seen this before, you think like maybe he's going to like take Clarice out or he's gonna at least shoot her, or something where it's it's just like in the dark, that whole that whole scene's insane, but he gives himself away like at the last moment, and she just open fires on him, like every man does it. Well, yeah, good point.

SPEAKER_10 54:24

It is true, it is true, and I think to me, that's why I know we'll talk about characters later, but that's to me a pivotal point where she's like, Gotcha, bitch, yeah, and now you're dead.

SPEAKER_05 54:34

But it shows how different of a killer he is, you know, from from from Hannibal to Cannibal, where he doesn't have that intense like thought process going on. I can't wait for us to break down characters later. But that that moment where he's like taking his time, he's trying to stalk, but he's more clumsy than Hannibal ever would be, and he gets he gets taken out because of it because she's stronger and she's better. And I I love that moment where it's just like she's opening fire, he's he starts to fire, but it's like going off in like all the wrong directions, and he it's not like he's like laying there, like, oh, you've killed me and everything is horrible. He's like dead, dead, like gurgling blood, and it's game over and such a satisfying moment.

SPEAKER_07 55:10

I have to fully agree. That's absolutely my favorite kill. Obviously, it's uh the only kill that we get on screen, like we see it happen. It's just so good, and it's there's basically two parts of the scene where Clarice is forced to like act instinctively in a situation that she's never been in and that she's just been, you know, training for with a bunch of frack eyes and sweats um back at the FBI camp. So, you know, when she first is and you know, goes into the house and starts asking a couple questions, her red flags go up and she makes that first move, right? And then after that, she's flustered and she's shaky and she's just trying to figure out what's going on, and she's out of breath and she's just trying to, you know, make it, just trying to figure out what's going on and how to do it. And then it comes down to like the wire, the milliseconds that it takes for her to respond to that shot. And it's it's just so good and so satisfying. Like she could have easily this could have easily not been a quote unquote happy ending, but it was so satisfying to see her get that shot off, kill him, because she clearly had the mental upper hand in that situation. And I think you have like Hannibal Lecter who is mentally above everybody, and then Clarice is doing her work to get up uh, you know, mid-range there, and then Buffalo Bill. It just does not have that that mental thing that that they have in this movie.

SPEAKER_08 56:33

Oh, so it's like a you know, Hannibal, the cannibal food chain.

SPEAKER_07 56:37

I like it. Uh, you know, he's the apex predator. In the less than obvious terms, yes.

SPEAKER_06 56:42

I love the admiration you guys are showing that kill. Just because it's it's another one that's really amplified in the book. Um, like you're saying, Ryan, uh Clarissa's trained for a few very specific things, and she's very uh familiar with firearms, and that's like one of her strengths in the academy that they focus on a lot. Uh, so just hearing the sound of that gun cock behind her, she recognizes that sound immediately, and that's what gives her the upper hand. One thing I wish they had included in the movie is Buffalo Bill's final words after he's like absolutely obliterated by Clarice.

SPEAKER_02 57:13

Tell us.

SPEAKER_06 57:13

So he's like lying on the ground, like choking up blood, and she like she's like over him, like making sure he's dead, and like his dying words are, What is it like to be so beautiful?

SPEAKER_10 57:23

Wow, that's that's deep.

SPEAKER_06 57:26

And it's yeah, it just goes into like the whole uh psychology of that character, of like what he covets. And like the moment he sees Clarice, he's like, Oh, she's a beautiful woman. Why can't I be a beautiful woman?

SPEAKER_05 57:37

Uh, but not for the right reasons necessarily. So now that we've taken all the good kills, Chris, like, are there any level to pick from? What you got left, Chris?

SPEAKER_08 57:45

These are all good. Uh, my first place, first off, I mean most stunning, right? The bloody go, but first place kill was uh MiGs because sticks and stones can break your bones, but words can hurt you if you're Migs. But the other one, so I'm gonna go like my third place is gonna be Sergeant Pembury. Only for the bonus points of being used as a very elaborate prop and disguise simultaneously. I mean, you know, we had Hannibal as some leather face action, and the reveal of taking that messed up face off to reveal this bloody Hannibal face. It's just you you can immediately feel all the things you didn't quite see on Pembury's body.

SPEAKER_10 58:26

I love that scene so much. Like from the moment Clarice comes in to the moment Hannibal leaves and is in the ambulance. It's just amazing. It's so amazing.

SPEAKER_08 58:38

I made jokes earlier about it's an hour and 17 minutes until you get Hannibal do his thing. But I think the restraint and the very specific choices they made with the blood is probably the strongest visual element in this movie for me, aside from like the reflections and the glasses and Hannibal's cell. You know, there are moments where after he does his first initial attack on the police officers, he has just very specific splatterings of blood, you know, on this table in front of him on his shirt. And then just to see it kind of progress and then all of a sudden go away when you know once we switch scenes, it's just like get a taste of it because you're not gonna get much more of the rest in the movie.

SPEAKER_10 59:19

To me, like I don't know, when you're first watching a movie, like I feel like your opening credits are like kind of what establish your it's establishes your movie. I know it's don't read a book by its cover, but to me, I I still do. Oh, it's important. It's important. Like you need a good visual. And I don't know, my favorite visual element was definitely like that bold like lettering in the beginning for the um for the opening credits. I don't know why, like it and it went over the entire screen, but it was very visually like not even stunning would be the word, because that would be like a little bit more like intimate, but this was very like in your face, and it to me didn't match like the softness of the movie a little bit because I feel like there was a little bit of softness, and I don't know if that was like the filming um or the film used, but um I definitely appreciate that like hard, just and I've seen it in other movies, and it's pretty effective, and and in this movie it was definitely effective as well.

SPEAKER_08 1:00:17

Some might say it was a bold choice.

SPEAKER_07 1:00:20

Love it. For me, my favorite visual element is something that we get a few times throughout the film, and it's the jail cell. Like Hannibal Lecter's jail cell is so interesting. Um, the way you know, the way he's got Clarice like perched on this chair in the hall, of course, like you know, in in the middle of all these monsters, basically. And then we have like a progression where they take all his drawings, and so he has this first place that's like beautifully decorated, and he's standing in the middle, and everything about it, like from the lighting to the like really the deep walls that make you feel like you're you're the walls that make you feel like you're deep underground, and you know, it feels cold and dirty and dark and miserable, honestly. And it just continues to change and kind of evolve with the story. Um, obviously, it's really cool, like the way they pass things back and forth, and there's just a lot of drama with that uh plexiglass wall and all those types of things. I love the jail cell. I think that if this had been done in like a regular, you know, metal concrete jail cell, it wouldn't have half the charm that it does. And it it it lends itself to like Hannibal Lecter being who he is, and um even so the last part where we see it and they have him on the a dolly basically, and he's just an animal strapped up. Like it's I just love it, and they're you know, talking to him, they've taken everything out of there, and he's just strapped up. You can't do anything anymore, you know. I I just think that's like one of the richest parts of this movie for me.

SPEAKER_05 1:01:50

And there's there's parts of of those scenes that are so amazing, like when Clarice is walking up to Hannibal to see him for the first time, and we see him like peering into the camera as it then like lines up with her vision, like absolutely stunning. I I think I'm gonna pick however for visuals, but the moment in the in the second jail cell where we see his like drawing of of Clarice and the Lamb, it's so fantastic, and it shows that you know he's like constantly thinking his brain is is so next level. But I don't know, it just like makes me think that the entire time he's like investing in her to see if she's becoming like a worthy prey, and not like I'm gonna eat her next week, but like I need her to become an adversary over like decades so that I can decide one day if she's finally a worthy prey, because he's the ultimate predator in this case. But that just that little glimpse into his drawings and how he's viewing her in such a majestic way, like holding this lamb, such a classical drawing that he's made of her. Absolutely amazing.

SPEAKER_06 1:02:52

Can I tell you a bit more about that, Mac? Please. Of course. In the book, he one actually has her pose for that drawing while they're talking. He's like, Hey, can you hold your head like this for a second? And then he like captures the memory and then uses it. Um, but he actually draws her as Jesus on the cross for a watch face that he's trying to get patented, where like Jesus' arms are the hands of the clock, but it's Clarice's face. Wow. It was a pretty bizarre moment.

SPEAKER_08 1:03:24

That is one of the most oddly specific things I've I've heard on this show in quite a while.

SPEAKER_06 1:03:29

I think the change that they made for the movie uh was for the better in this case. Yes. I I agree because that that's like going too far a little bit. At least for a film. In a book, you can do whatever you want. They also spend like a brief moment going into like what can legally be patented. And I was like, where are we? What are we doing?

SPEAKER_07 1:03:43

We'd love a good book that takes a whole chapter to explain something. And it's like, that doesn't mean anything to me. Also, can we all agree that like to have the memory of Hannibal Lecter would just be so lovely? I don't know how y'all are. I have the worst memory that's ever been. And as he recalls things, I just sat thinking, wow, wouldn't that be nice to remember a conversation an hour later?

SPEAKER_08 1:04:06

I find that would be a burden. Like there's some shit that I'm really glad I like don't remember. Like specifically, you know, very embarrassing things.

SPEAKER_07 1:04:14

Oh, but I never forget the embarrassing things. I just forget everything chill. All the chill stuff goes away. I only remember the embarrassing things.

SPEAKER_06 1:04:22

One thing that I can never forget from this movie um is all of the Buffalo Bill scenes. Um, I think the set design does a really great job of giving you some background and context into a character that they don't necessarily have the time to flesh out in the movie. Um, but specifically the scene where he tucks his junk and he's wearing the scalp of a dead woman and he has like this shawl, very like Stevie Nick's shawl on, and he like spreads his wings like the butterfly, and you see that shot. Um, that's something that at no point happens in the book. Um, but seeing it in the movie, it's one of like the most impactful images that's like burned into my mind. When I think of this movie, I think of Buffalo Bill tucking his dick between his legs and just like really feeling himself.

SPEAKER_07 1:05:04

Yeah, I I I don't know where I was. I like I said, I had never really watched this through one time, and I didn't really know any of that happened. So it had quite the impact as I watched this today.

SPEAKER_06 1:05:16

You can never forget that.

SPEAKER_07 1:05:17

It was a quick tuck, by the way.

SPEAKER_06 1:05:19

And while that's my favorite visual element, uh, it's not my favorite scene. My favorite scene has to be the final conversation we get between Clarice and Hannibal Lecter, where we really understand one, the title of the of the story. Um and it's for me, it's the part where I get goosebumps every time because you have the tightest like close up shot of Jodie Foster's face while she's delivering this monologue, and all of her micro expressions while she's revealing this story that she probably hasn't talked about ever uh to this psycho killer. Um, the way she emotes that moment is just Like gives me chills every time.

SPEAKER_07 1:06:02

Ooh, can I tell you? I found the story to be so underwhelming.

SPEAKER_06 1:06:05

Oh, really?

SPEAKER_07 1:06:05

Yeah. It just like lamb screaming. I ran away. I stole a lamb. I don't know. It didn't.

SPEAKER_06 1:06:11

Have you ever heard a lamb scream though? It sounds like a person.

SPEAKER_07 1:06:14

Yeah. I I haven't heard a lamb scream, but I I don't know. I don't I'm not sure why it didn't, it just didn't really hit the way I thought it would. I was excited, like for, you know, it it's like it's like when uh you're listening to a song and it says the title line, you know, like there's always a moment in a movie where you're like, oh, the title, nice. See, I don't think that deep. So you don't get excited about the title when it comes up, you don't go like, oh, this is uh silence of the lambs. I get it.

SPEAKER_10 1:06:40

No, I definitely didn't catch it this time for sure.

SPEAKER_05 1:06:43

It wasn't too on the nose. Sometimes in movies, it's too on the nose.

SPEAKER_07 1:06:46

Like it wasn't no, it wasn't corny.

SPEAKER_05 1:06:48

In the book, it's literally the last words. Oh my god. Like, could you imagine if if Hannibal Lecter in the movie is like, have we achieved the silence of the lambs?

SPEAKER_07 1:06:58

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 1:06:59

Like you would you would turn the movie off and be like, okay, all right, we're done.

SPEAKER_07 1:07:02

No, I wasn't trying to take anything away from it. Uh I it just, I don't know. For some reason that didn't do it for me. But what did is our incredible escape scene uh from Hannibal. And he's, of course, left this, you know, angelic, angelic figure that's disemboweled, and it's just such an insane scene when they go into that room. And I knew the whole time, obviously, that it's uh Hannibal Lecter that they're gonna take out on the stretcher. See, I forget every time. Oh man, every second of this movie is the perfectly maybe I'm too crazy. Every second of this movie I think is like perfectly predictable, but not because it's predictable because I've seen it and it's like the smart thing that Hannibal Lecter would do. Maybe I understand him too well. I don't know. Maybe you are a Hannibal Lecter. Yeah, no, I definitely don't eat people. But I think when you go into that room, that scene, it just it like the way these young cops that have been garbage all the time to our girl Clarice, the way they're just like overwhelmed by everything they're seeing. And like I I just love that scene so much. It's everything for me.

SPEAKER_08 1:08:11

I would agree with that. Yeah, that's that's also my favorite scene. And uh not gonna be super redundant, but I will say that I love that the element of him escaping just feels feels like a fun little heist movie, you know? Like he's pulling off the ultimate, you know, bank robbery, except what he's stealing is people's sense of security.

SPEAKER_07 1:08:28

It's like he didn't even try that hard, you know?

SPEAKER_11 1:08:30

Like he just he's just like, ah, well, I'll just do that.

SPEAKER_08 1:08:32

He does work, put a face on. Yeah, like I could be much richer had I applied even a fraction of this intelligence towards any other endeavor.

SPEAKER_10 1:08:41

Yeah. Clearly, it fooled a lot of people too. Matt can appreciate this. I'm sure everyone can appreciate it. Maybe Mac a little bit more, but like the whole psychology in this whole movie is just like outstanding and like getting into people's heads. And I don't know, I'm like really into it right now. So I feel like I hyper-focus on certain things in my life, and this is what I'm hyper-focusing on is like all these like you know, psychological books and why people do like the things they do. And I think a really cool part, and this kind of ties into that, um, is when Clarice is going down to meet um Hannibal for the first time, and she's going down and she's in the room with the guards, and you're in a first person perspective, and you're scanning the room. And I know this might be a visual, but entirely this it was my favorite scene, is you pick up on the guards, you pick up what's going on um during that time as well. And it to me, it was like her going in their head and figuring out like, what is where am I? What am I doing here? What are these context clues? And like literally, she's scanning the room, and so is the um camera. So I just loved that. I loved it. I felt like I was investigating the room, trying to figure out these characters, trying to get more of a sense of who Hannibal is or who or where what is this environment that he's been in, and who are these people he's interacting with. So I like obsessed over that because I was just like, and all it was was a panning of the camera.

SPEAKER_07 1:10:17

Also, the guards were like so joyful. They were like, You're you'll be good. We got you. After the you know, terrible doctor from upstairs.

SPEAKER_05 1:10:25

I can appreciate why you why you enjoyed that. I'm gonna go for something super specific for scenes, though, and it's Buffalo Bill in the van abduction scene. Because it gave me just like this sense of what an homage to Ted Bundy with the cast on the hand, and I can't lift this thing, and I need you to help me.

SPEAKER_10 1:10:45

So like rolling it everywhere is crazy.

SPEAKER_05 1:10:48

I mean, it was just like, oh, you know, throwing himself, he's planning, you know, he's in the darkness, he's got the night vision goggles on, and then when he goes into action, he, you know, he's got to be super like human and fluid about, like, oh yeah, I could really use your help, and oh no, like I'm you know, put it in the back of the van. Yeah, if you want to bring it right, and then boom, like she's knocked out, right? But it was just like so Ted Bundy. It was one of those things that I know you guys felt like this was so you know grounded in things we've seen and other true crime and stuff, but it it truly is like it at every point you can find things that have happened in real life, in the real world, that make these characters more believable. You know, it's it's not like they're these crazy serial killers that are eating 10,000 people at a time or something, you know. They're they're these small moments that are like this stuff has happened in the world, and yeah, maybe we should be a little bit scared.

SPEAKER_07 1:11:32

Yeah, and uh for me, this could not have possibly been more of a reminder not to help men do anything ever. They'll all be fine. They don't need help picking anything up. Yeah, you don't.

SPEAKER_10 1:11:43

You you don't want the help when we're there, but then when we're not there, you want the help. So I don't understand. Like, pick one.

SPEAKER_07 1:11:50

I'm never helping a strange man do anything. I and I love it. Usually not the back of a video. Okay. That's all I have to say. I love men, but not at night outside by yourself. I'm not helping you do anything ever.

SPEAKER_05 1:12:01

But Ryan, he had a cast. Or in the middle of a day helping someone lift a kayak. Also not a good time either.

SPEAKER_07 1:12:07

Also, help yourself. Like, you got it. Don't help men ever. They'll be fine. Strange men, never. They're good. They're they're literally they will be okay. And if not, another man will help them.

SPEAKER_10 1:12:17

Yeah.

SPEAKER_07 1:12:17

Friend men, no, totally fine to help them.

SPEAKER_10 1:12:20

Friend men, yeah, sure.

SPEAKER_05 1:12:22

So I think we've, I mean, all of us had a lot of love for this film, except for Chris, who seems to be fairly unfazed yet fairly not super disappointed by it. But I have had the hardest time thinking of anything that I am like can find negative about the film. Was there a part of you know this film that you guys just didn't enjoy? Because I I can't find one. I can't find a worst part. Like it all feels so good. Oh Mac, try a little harder.

SPEAKER_10 1:12:48

Right? I don't know if I necessarily would say like there's something I disliked about the movie. It's so funny because you know I'm like, you know, 90-minute kind of girl. Um I don't like anything past that. And I was like, fuck, this is two hours. Um, how am I gonna like but then I realized there's a lot of things that go on, there's a lot of pauses, but the pauses are not that long, but they're frequent kind of in the movie, and they make you think, they make you think about the character development. But I mean, the only thing I'd w change, or I wouldn't even say it's negative, it's just I wish I could get um more into Buffalo Bill's past. I I wish I got that like sort of documentary style or you know, true crime style where you, you know, you hear about a complete life story from beginning to end. And I was really like a spin-off of that, like Ryan said.

SPEAKER_06 1:13:39

I will say, as a big fan of this film, um, there is a moment that I've never quite appreciated, and my boyfriend helped me to realize that it it can kind of be a little dumb. Um, and it's the first moment where we see Hannibal, the cannibal lector, do his cannibal thing. Uh, when he goes to bite the face of that officer, it's very cheesy. He's kind of just like, and it's like it's underwhelming, and it feels kind of like not the big moment you would want it to be. Uh, so I think that's definitely something that if they could go back, uh, I would love for them to kind of give that some more oomph, you know.

SPEAKER_07 1:14:18

See, I quite enjoyed that bit. I think like the lieutenant and the sergeant in that instance were just like so chill, and you knew it was coming. Like I said before, like it's just that predictability, but you just have to wait for it to actually happen for Hannibal Elector to have his moment. Um, I don't have a worst part of this movie. There were some parts that were a little bit too uh like cop oriented, like uh there's just some of it that I just didn't care about, and I actually can't even put my finger on the moment in the movie because as soon as I started to feel like eh, I kind of don't care about this part. I think we went straight into like Hannibal being transferred, which which heightened the the stress again. So and not that again, not that it's perfect, but it's it's so good that I don't have a thing where I can say, like, this is the worst part for me.

SPEAKER_08 1:15:09

That's fair. I mean, good points about this movie, right? Like when you struggle to find something that is like, I really wish this wasn't in here. That I think that's a like a high praise and high testament. But three things I could have done without in this movie.

SPEAKER_06 1:15:23

Here we go.

SPEAKER_08 1:15:24

It's not even a here we go. These are all in jest because they need to be in the movie and it makes perfect sense. And it's not bad that they're in the movie, it's just you know, could have done without the semen flinging across the hallway. Come on, could have done without that.

SPEAKER_03 1:15:38

Fair.

SPEAKER_08 1:15:38

And then Chilton and Crawford, you know, they're just assholes, and I'm not a fan of either one of them. And I understand that, you know, I I've read that like Crawford has some deeper complexities to his character that might make him more likable, perhaps. Parrish, maybe you can elaborate on that later. But, you know, I'm just those two people I just was not a fan of in the movie. And it's not saying that they are bad and should be taken from the movie, they are critical to the story, they are exactly who they need to be, they play their roles extremely well. Uh, but you know, fuck them. I hate Crawford. I hate him. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:16:11

Really?

SPEAKER_08 1:16:12

I wanted him to be killed. Let me tell you why, Crawford. And you know, Ryan, I know you I know you got a lot to say about this guy. It is this line. It was the uh, I remember you from my seminar. I gave you an A. And she's like, A minus. It's like this lack of fucking awareness that it's like, okay, even when you recognize a woman's accomplishments, you still gotta get a little microaggression dig in, huh? And then you think that's like a fucking blessing to her. Just can't stand that asshole.

SPEAKER_07 1:16:38

As a woman, there are ways that older men interact with you, and it's it's just such an unfortunate thing because when there's someone that's in control of your success and also tries to make it seem like they're responsible for your successes because they're like taking you under their wing. Like it's just a thing that I can't stand and loathe. And it's predatory. It's predatory, absolutely. And it's it's you know, taking advantage of the power structure and everything like that. It's trash. We know that. And it's unfortunate because Clarice is truly just doing her job, just doing what she's trying to do, just trying to make it to accomplish her goals. And this guy's like, I'm so proud of you. Like, Crawford, get out of here. Nobody cares if you're proud of her. Literally, nobody cares.

SPEAKER_08 1:17:29

And yeah, don't need that fucking prolonged intimate handshake. You're truly not my real dad. You don't need the physical content. No, no, it's gross.

SPEAKER_05 1:17:38

It is this movie is a tale of predators, though. And and I don't think it shies away from that. You know, it's not like we're showing men, and there's nothing wrong with these men. I think it shows that like these men are predators, and even like, I mean, even Hannibal calls him out when he's asking, like, you know, does he want to hook up with you? Is that why he's he's helping you out? And it's it's so self-aware that I I love that part.

SPEAKER_10 1:18:00

It's unfortunate because the answer is always yes.

SPEAKER_05 1:18:02

Right. Are we all men?

SPEAKER_10 1:18:03

Are we not talking about the worst part where Clarice is kind finally getting some confidence and she's like, Yeah, I'm gonna like rock Hannibal's world. And she's like running with her friend, and then all these guys turn around while she's running. And I was like confused. I was like, Are they looking? Because they're like, Wow, she is talking about something really intellectual, or are they checking her ass out?

SPEAKER_06 1:18:24

Oh no, they're objectifying her.

SPEAKER_08 1:18:26

Okay, it is the high concentration of men in one area. There is a very small ratio of women, and what happens to men in these environments, and I'm saying this from the perspective of someone who is in a male-dominated industry in the Navy, people joke about having boat goggles where it's like, oh, you know, like a girl could be a five every other place, but you know, after a few months at sea, she's sure looking like a nine. It's disgusting, and that is just like the reality of what those dudes were doing. This is gross. She is beautiful. So don't get me wrong, Jody Foster is is very, very beautiful, but they did that when she's sweaty, running, and wearing the baggiest sweatpants possible because it doesn't matter to them, because they're always gonna see her as an object.

SPEAKER_07 1:19:11

But shout out to when she calls out Crawford and she's like, Oh, he's like, Oh, you know, it's it's it's you know, I just had to get rid of him, it's no big deal, from basically saying, like, we need to speak without her. And she goes, Yeah, but they look at you to see how to act, so you gotta do better. She said, It matters, it matters because it does.

SPEAKER_06 1:19:32

I didn't really care for Crawford uh in the movie or in the book. Uh in the book, he has this like side storyline where his wife is like dying of a disease at home, and I guess it's supposed to make you more sympathetic to him, but like I still didn't care.

SPEAKER_10 1:19:43

Yeah, I'm glad they didn't put that in the movie.

SPEAKER_06 1:19:45

Yeah, it was very boring. All those parts, I was like, don't care, skip ahead. I I didn't skip ahead, but I wanted to. They they play it more as like a father-daughter relationship, and they really sexualized it in the movie in a way that I didn't feel was necessary. But now that I'm hearing the way that you guys have perceived it, I'm like, oh, it adds to the the surrounding context of like the male gaze and everything that Clarice is dealing with. Um, but just know in the book it was it was much more like dad-daughter, like he was looking out for her in school, he was trying to make sure that she was able to like follow up on the case while not getting kicked out.

SPEAKER_07 1:20:17

Allow me to point out that even when a man presents himself as a fatherly figure, it is often ill-intended. Yes.

SPEAKER_06 1:20:24

Yes. There is actually one moment in the book where he like has like a kind of nasty thought and he like gets rid of it immediately. He's like, you know what? No, it's not that with Clarice. Oh my gosh. So you're right. Absolutely.

SPEAKER_05 1:20:34

He considers it at one point. It's not dad, it's daddy. That's what he wants to have.

SPEAKER_08 1:20:39

Okay, can we stop that? You know, we're talking about Clarice. I just I just want to add this about Clarice's perspective and her character. She is like the strength of the movie, and it's not just because she's the main character, right? It's like she sees the victims as women, right? Whole, outlived, authentic women. And so often in these serial killer movies and these documentaries, right? Like whatever it is, you have these really stoic, hardened detectives with such a cold hard separation that it almost seems like the victims themselves are just being objectified all over again. That's necessary for their job. They have to look at it in such a way. But I think you know, her perspective in this, you know, it's it's what was needed because in this movie, women were approached in a way that we they were only seen within the context of their death, except she saw more and she saw that humanization. She went to the house, she cared to know more details about her life. So if not for her and the diversity that she brings in her perspective, like this is just we're living in a time right now, right? We have the first woman elected as vice president. My favorite baseball team just hired the first woman to be an actual general manager in a major league baseball. When you look at like 1991, the little seeds that were being planted from this novel, it's just amazing to see the progress of like glass ceilings breaking every step of the way. And then you look back at this movie and it just makes you appreciate it in a very different way.

SPEAKER_10 1:22:07

It really does. And I I mean, I not that I can relate to Clarice on everything, but I feel like everyone's been in some sort of spot she's been in, and like, you know, you're the new person on the job and you don't know what to do. You're going in and telling them what your, you know, your boss is telling you what to do. You don't know if it's ill intended or like you you have no idea. And it's just like going from there, and then just I mean, I mean, I think a pivotal point to me, and maybe because I just recently moved, is because she's in the storage unit, super smart. She gives um the guy her card and is like, hey, look, something happens to me in there. I was like, I would never even think to do that. But like, my thing is like I could go on forever about the misogyny in this, but I'm not. That really hit home because recently moving and just having to do it all by myself, but no one wanting to help me, yet clearly a lot of people are available. It was this guy who standing right there, and there was another guy in the car, and no one wanted to help her. But you know what? She was still cool and she's like perfect, and she figured out how to undo it. Yeah, she figured all this. She's like, I'm gonna go in. And I I mean, I love that. And to me, that was a pivotal point for her character to realize like, clearly, I can't can't count on my boss because I got to do this shit by myself. Um, and then from there, I think her just character like totally went up from there. And you know, even till we get to this the ending, and I know we'll talk about that, but to where she, although in this light of Buffalo Bill, she doesn't have the upper hand he does technically. And you know, you see her being super vulnerable and pushing against a wall, and she looks scared as hell. Yet, who comes out on top? Okay. Sorry. I knew this this is what how it's gonna be tonight. So I mean, catch me on another night. I might be like, hey, let's let's hang out, Hannibal. But like tonight I'm all about Clarice.

SPEAKER_08 1:24:11

Oh no, you're still hey, let's hang out, Hannibal. You're just like, fuck no, Buffalo Bill. Take your ass home.

SPEAKER_07 1:24:17

I think one more thing to add to like what Chris is saying about Clarice is that moment where she's in the room with all the male cops um and the body that they found. And she says, Thanks for being here, guys. I'm sure the family really appreciates how kind you've been. Um, but we're gonna take care of it from now. Everybody clear out. They all kind of looked around like, what do you mean how kind we've been and how considerate we've been? Because because it's exactly like what Chris mentioned, like that's not how things are handled. Things are like cold, like these are not people, these are bodies, these are a job, you know? And I think that's another one of those moments where she stands out and sets herself apart from people that we've seen in these roles previously in movies, but specifically from the roles that uh are in this movie, the the men that play the parts in these movies.

SPEAKER_06 1:25:06

I love that you brought that up, Brian, uh, because that moment in the book is one where Clarice again like navigates a situation so tactfully and thoughtfully. Uh, she actually, you can't really tell too much in the movie, but she she plays up her southern accent for that line uh to appeal to the these like like hometown boys' sense of like nobility, and she's like, you know, you probably haven't considered it from this perspective, but I'm gonna lay it on in this angle to kind of guilt you into getting the fuck out of the room so I can do my job. And the way she like manipulates these uh these guys all all throughout the story is really just so brilliant. And Chris, like you were mentioning earlier, the importance of the diversity of perspective actually comes into play uh at one point where Clarice is actually almost going to be taken off of the case, and she has to kind of explain to these men that because she's the only woman on this case, she's offering a perspective that none of them have. And literally every crime scene she gets into, she notices things immediately that 30 men before her completely overlooked, and that's how she's able to get so close to finding this killer.

SPEAKER_05 1:26:12

I know this is kind of a sidetrack, but I have to say I'm I'm so lucky slash happy that this was one of my favorite films growing up. Because I mean, Clary Starling is is a hero, right? Like an amazing hero. Watching the the like the progress, watching like her break things down and and ultimately get to the right place by the end of the film is is fantastic. And I mean, a couple other heroes of of kind of the the 90s for me, I mean, this seems silly, but like Agent Scully. I don't know if you if you guys are familiar. Jillian Anderson. Ah, icon. Right? Kate Mulgrew, who played uh Catherine Janeway, absolutely amazing character, and like sticks with me to this day. This is from Star Trek Voyager, just a really strong captain who's like one of her like signature lines is I I don't like bullies. So it's like seeing these kind of characters in the 90s that like it was okay to be a strong woman and be in charge and to be able to like just push off all the rest of like the douchebags who's surrounding you and just be who you are and and work in an organization that may not necessarily support you, but like you're there to make things happen. I don't know. I just again I feel lucky to see to have grown up seeing that like throughout the 90s, where today this is obviously still the problem.

SPEAKER_08 1:27:22

Yeah. And I think if if anything, right, I mean, does this movie speak to me as a horror movie? No. Does it speak to me as a psychological thriller? No. Does it speak to me as a case study in fucking misogyny and the progress of feminism? Hell yeah. Here's the thing, guys, like don't be fooled. You just like you said, Mack, this shit still happens. It's just not as common. And even then, it was it okay for her to be there? It wasn't actually okay, but she arrived and she persevered through that. And even now, there are just like microaggressions. Like if you're the most qualified woman in the room for something and then it gets messy, right? But Clarice is just One example, and I'm so happy that Jody Foster, you know, has this as a notch in her in her acting career because it's absolutely incredible and powerful. We can go on and on about Clarice. There's so much to unpack there. But obviously, there's an interesting dynamic that Hannibal Lecter and Anthony Hopkins provides as him. And then we also have this dynamic with Buffalo Bill. We actually have a listener question in, and uh one of our one of our fans wants to get our perspective on something.

SPEAKER_03 1:28:27

Ooh.

SPEAKER_00 1:28:28

A question from the King Above 18. What do you guys think about the theory that Hannibal Lecter in treating Buffalo Bill played upon his history of abuse and basically created the character of Buffalo Bill in the movie and made him basically a bargaining chip when he would eventually be captured and be questioned.

SPEAKER_07 1:28:52

I do think that uh obviously this is kind of my first time hearing, you know, different theories about creation of Buffalo Bill or anything like that. I don't know that I necessarily agree with that previously, as he was a patient, Hannibal Lecter created Buffalo Bill. I'm on board with thinking that he reserved the information that he knew, knew that he would be a threat to people, knew that it would come up eventually, and then save that to use it later to benefit himself.

SPEAKER_10 1:29:20

Yeah, and I might know a little bit deeper into this like question, but I think it was like this topic of like, is um Hannibal like living vicariously through these um serial killers essentially Buffalo Bill in you know, hey, like I love what you're doing, I admire your work, which I feel like is totally Hannibal.

SPEAKER_07 1:29:41

I mean, I think he was like he really wanted to get into those case files, you know. It's not about like, oh, I want to help you. I think it's about I need to know about these details.

SPEAKER_10 1:29:49

I want to know what he's doing because it kind of turns me on, like kind of into it.

SPEAKER_05 1:29:54

Yeah, I'd take it the opposite direction, and I could see him as judging all of them because in his mind, everyone basically is lesser than him.

SPEAKER_06 1:30:02

That's true.

SPEAKER_05 1:30:03

Oh, yeah, for sure. Yeah, so he's because he's so intelligent and he's so ahead of everyone that he's you know, let's say, like in in their therapy, like he's you know, talking about the thoughts and feelings and everything that they're going through. I don't think he would want to push him to do anything necessarily dangerous or or violent, but I don't think he would hold him back from it either. I think he just like wants to know because he's he's just watching, he's just a wolf off in the distance, just kind of watching everything happen and deciding how he's gonna attack his own prey. I just I I don't know that he would want to even like think about, oh, what are they feeling, what are they going through in a way that would, you know, like you said, like turn him on or anything. I I just think he's like, look at these, look at these peasants, look at these people trying to do what I do. And it's like they're it's like they're babies to him, and he's just like watching them grow up. Even like when he mentioned um the the head that we found in the storage unit, it's like you know, it's it's a first kill kind of situation.

SPEAKER_06 1:31:00

Buffalo Bill, his mom was an alcoholic and he killed his grandparents when he was like 12, and then basically in the foster care system, just continued to be neglected and not help, and then eventually became what he was. Uh so I don't think we can credit Hannibal Lecter with the creation of Buffalo Bill as a character. But one thing that I find really fascinating about this character is that they talk a lot about him thinking that he's quote, a transsexual. And in the book, he he has this VHS tape of his mom in a Miss Sacramento pageant while she's pregnant with him, like one or two months pregnant, and he watches it on loop obsessively, like every day. And I feel like it's sort of this allegory of him like seeing how beautiful and glamorous she is in this pageant and knowing that he's like inside of her, and it's sort of like he's in this cocoon and needs to come out of it as a woman in order to be the mother figure that he never actually had. And they actually go into pretty specific detail about why Buffalo Bill specifically is not a transsexual, as they say in the movie, or somebody that's transgendered. And there's a scene where there's a surgeon from John Hopkins who specializes in trans medicine, um, and he works with these patients all the time, and he explains to Clarice, like, this is what we see from true transgendered individuals, and this is what we saw from Buffalo Bill, and this is why these things are different. And I feel like it's such an important distinction that's made. And I'm glad that it still made it into the movie where when Hannibal Lecter says he thinks he's a transsexual, or he kind of he postulates that idea to Clarice and she says, No, that doesn't match the profile at all. Trans transgendered individuals are more likely to be victims of violence than perpetrators of violence, um, because it kind of prevents this movie from having the negative impact that I think it's still got backlash for.

SPEAKER_08 1:32:52

It for sure got it. And it got it because we're this is released in the 90s, right? And this was like, you know, everybody in the 90s knows, oh shit, people are gonna see this, and like they're not gonna pick up on the nuance of, oh no, there's a safety line here. We're totally not saying this thing. They're gonna see that and say, Oh, that's what uh that's what them transsexuals do, as they call them in the movie, right? It's gonna be like this immediate inciting to like, oh no, that's the shit we gotta avoid. And we we talked about this in the in the Pride Month episode, and we talked about like, you know, how representation has evolved for the LGBTQ plus community. I'll drop a link in the show notes to that so you can hear more on that subject, but it definitely still got it. The movie I think has aged better as we as a society have progressed, and now you have new watchers who can view this and see, oh no, there is a distinction here. You know, we're not, you know, so deeply steeped into that culture anymore.

SPEAKER_06 1:33:46

Yeah, for a novel or even a movie to flat out say um this character is not a transgendered individual for these reasons. Um, one of them being that transgendered people are more often victims of violence than perpetrators, uh, really was ahead of its time. Uh, and I actually I read that they filmed a scene where the Johns Hopkins Doctor kind of breaks that down. Um, but I guess it didn't make it into the final cut. But I believe it exists out there in the world.

SPEAKER_05 1:34:13

You know, I was curious while watching this. I mean, it I know it's unrelated, but like you see in in the house, there's things kind of scattered throughout that are like white power-based. Was any of that part of his character in in the novel?

SPEAKER_06 1:34:28

It wasn't at all, but I saw those swastikas and I was like, I mean, why not throw those in there just for filler?

SPEAKER_05 1:34:34

And I was I was curious if that had if they were just trying to build like this this backstory of violence. So I wasn't sure if you know if it was something that was mentioned even, but it definitely seemed like we'll just throw this in. It wasn't even brought up at all anytime ever. So I'm not surprised that it wasn't in the novel at all.

SPEAKER_10 1:34:49

I don't know. I feel like there was also race brought up a lot in this, even though it wasn't like a forefront issue. I think it was something that presented in the movie.

SPEAKER_05 1:34:57

They definitely had this question of of identity, and and the issue with this character being that they didn't have one or that they didn't feel that they had one, and so they were trying to like make one for themselves.

SPEAKER_10 1:35:07

Can I make my own identity? I would love to. Like, I do not want to be talking about the deep web. Not gonna lie, you can literally be whoever you want to be right now today. Oh, I didn't mean like change my name. Like, I just meant like change.

SPEAKER_07 1:35:19

You can you can change you.

SPEAKER_06 1:35:20

You can be just make different choices.

SPEAKER_10 1:35:22

Alexis, don't let your dreams be dreams. That's one of the things that you're whatever you want to be. Someone buy me a couch and I will be a new person, I promise.

SPEAKER_08 1:35:30

You know, Mac, you you pointed out and you questioned the presence of the swastikas, and there's actually this article that I had found online, and I'll drop a link into the show notes. Someone goes through they they tackle the perspective of is Buffalo Bill and the representation of Buffalo Bill transphobic. And it's really interesting, right? You know, the time and and way that we are experiencing this movie now is so vastly different, and you know, like it or not, it doesn't matter if that was the movie's intent, it had an impact. And it perhaps had a negative impact, and there's no way to minimize that, right? This article is is really interesting because it says, you know, it addresses the context as of society at the time, but then it also gets the insight of the actor who was playing him. And they actually have this section here, I'm just gonna read you very briefly. Watching the film, one finds Gum's home is filled with examples of Nazi paraphernalia. This bit of set direction, easily missed upon a first viewing, reveals more of Gum's psychosis. Nazis, like many racial superiority groups, radicalize people by targeting insecure individuals. Messages of empowerment would have appealed to someone like Gum, and this would have been another chapter in his life where he tried to change his identity. Nazis were known to skin their victims, which may have served as the inspiration for Gum's transformation into Buffalo Bill. When he can't empower himself with such methods, he resorts to possessing his victims, turning them into a soup is the ultimate way he dehumanizes them. Ted Levine again clarifies that this is how he played the role. He wanted the power that he perceives a woman possesses. I want you, so I'm gonna have you. I'm gonna have you completely in that I'm gonna skin you and crawl inside you. And that's a chilling perspective, right?

SPEAKER_05 1:37:08

That adds such such a depth to that character and just like you mentioned, that that psychosis. And I I think we missed a little bit by not even mentioning that anywhere inside the film, but it I mean it's apparent what's going on just in those in those small little moments, and of course, through his portrayal of the character.

SPEAKER_08 1:37:24

Yeah, it's an absolutely incredible um, you know, analysis written by Eric Hansen. Again, I'm gonna drop a link in the show notes. And he also adds, you know, at the beginning of this, when he wrote this, it was such a different time than even how, you know, we're tackling trans rights and representation now. He's even had his perspective evolve in the time since writing this article. So it's just really interesting to go through the analysis of this movie and look at it over the decades and just see how it's evolved.

SPEAKER_10 1:37:48

I mean, I know I kind of bashed it earlier and I wish they had done a little bit more, but I do like how they approach a topic of like nature versus nurture. And even Hannibal's like, yeah, like Buffalo Bill probably wouldn't be what he is right now if it wasn't for the system. And like I I learned about that in school, so I'm like, oh my gosh, my college education is literally making its way into real life. You know, $30,000 later, it's coming back. And all we have to show for it is a podcast where we don't get a lot of money, we're not as sponsored by Audible, but it's okay. But people love us, but people love us and we appreciate it. But yeah, no, it's like, okay, finally my college education has come, but it's like this um, it's it's this really interesting dynamic. It's like, you know, was it like Buffalo's built upbringing, or was it like, you know, how like he was like and how he was raised, or was it like him in the system? So um, I don't know, I just appreciate that because I feel like there's always just this hot topic in like psychology. It's like, what is it? And honestly, in my opinion, it's both. I'm sure everyone would agree at this point. It it's it's how you grew up, it's what you're born with, but it's also how society has shaped you, too. And I think it's cool to see it in like approached so early on in this movie that it's still a topic that like scientists and psychologists are still like trying to figure out. I mean, that's why I love this movie so much, is that it just can go on with the times. Like, how do you know in the 90s where you're gonna be in like a mid-2000s? But it's pretty cool.

SPEAKER_06 1:39:29

I love that you mentioned that, Alexis, because I think the character Buffalo Bill, he's failed by the system literally from birth. His name is Jame Gum, and it was supposed to be James, but there was a typo in his birth certificate. So it's like he and then he has to grow up with the name Jame, which isn't a name at all. Uh, and it that just is the seed that comes.

SPEAKER_10 1:39:54

Right. There you go. He's just playing a victim at this point. He could have many names. He just grew up in the wrong country.

SPEAKER_06 1:40:01

Yeah, that's the sapling that becomes a character that has no identity.

SPEAKER_08 1:40:04

Yeah, no, I love that. It's like a chain reaction, right? Like one time, uh, you all know I hate lettuce. One time I got lettuce on my sandwich at work. And I'm like, fuck, this is a really shitty day because now my lunch is ruined. Later in that, later on, I got hit on my way home, and the driver who hit me, his first name was Romaine. It's just stacks on top of each other.

SPEAKER_05 1:40:23

Oh, Romaine.

SPEAKER_08 1:40:24

I will say that for as excellent as this movie is, it's not one that I'm ever going to re- sit down and be like, I'm really feeling silence of the lambs today. Really? I would watch it again in like a serial killer kind of mood, but it has to be even then more specific because I like to learn about them versus like watch a fiction uh a narrative piece. So I feel like this is one that I would just watch with someone else. I would never watch it alone again.

SPEAKER_07 1:40:49

Chris, I would like to speak for the four of us and say every single one of us is re-watching this movie whenever, wherever, any time or place.

SPEAKER_10 1:40:57

Also, Shakira, whenever, wherever. We will all be together when we watch this movie. Is there a Spanish version? Thank you so much.

SPEAKER_08 1:41:05

Are you guys gonna have like a bat signal in the sky? Oh shit, it's Hannibal time. Yeah, actually, it's a lamb. It's a lamb.

SPEAKER_06 1:41:12

It's a death's head moth.

SPEAKER_07 1:41:14

That makes more sense.

SPEAKER_08 1:41:15

That's okay. You guys can work out the logistics later. Just, you know, do a few stencils, get a spotlight, see what you see what you feel, see what works. I can make something happen.

SPEAKER_06 1:41:24

One thing I would love to encourage everybody to do, if you have enjoyed this movie, is read the book. Um, I'm just gonna throw a couple more little tidbits that I read that I never noticed in the film or didn't make it into the film. Um, one of them is the the photos that uh Clarice finds in Frederica's bedroom. They're actually found in Catherine's bedroom. Um, and then her mom, the senator, walks in on Clarice finding these photos, and Clarice is like in the awkward position of like holding her daughter's nudes in her hand, and the senator's like, You found it in my daughter's room, give it to me. And Clarice is like, um, I don't think I should. And she's like, No, give it to me. And then she sees that they're these nudes and then totally makes Clarice feel like white trash for no reason. Uh so you kind of realize that the senator's a little bit of a bitch.

SPEAKER_08 1:42:08

Oh, wait, can can we also just acknowledge, and this is like a passing thought I had when they were really taking the time to humanize Catherine and just kept saying her name and all that good stuff. Amazing, brilliant. However, they truly they really chose the most unflattering picture of her in her entire life for that first picture.

SPEAKER_07 1:42:26

But to be fair, Catherine was kind of a little yacht, too, so I'm not surprised that her mom was in the book.

SPEAKER_06 1:42:31

Yeah.

SPEAKER_07 1:42:32

I wasn't having anything against her. I thought she was quite lovely. Bro, she would not chill. Clarence was like, yo, I got you. Give me a second. You're in a hole. It's a stressful situation. Nah, nah, nah, nah, nah, nah. You gotta be cool-headed, man.

SPEAKER_06 1:42:45

Toughened your nipples, didn't it? Another little morsel from the book is that the the fake name that Hannibal gives the the police for Buffalo Bill. In the movie, it's Lewis Friend, which is an anagram for iron sulfide, which is fool's gold. In the book, it's Billy Rubin, which is also a chemical that makes feces brown. And he basically used that as a way to call Dr. Chilton a shithead without him realizing it.

SPEAKER_10 1:43:10

I love that. There's so many tidbits, I feel like, in the book and in the movie. Many bits and bobs. I didn't realize there was comedy intertwined into this. It's got some dark comedy moments. Yes, which is my favorite. So I just my favorite quote is when Buffalo Bill is in the mirror, because I'm all about right now, like going through like, you know, positive self-talk, like mantras, like just saying it in the mirror. So like um Buffalo Bill's like, Would you fuck me? He's like saying it. He's like, Would you fuck me? He's like, Yeah, I'd fuck me. And I was like, Yes, this is totally something I need to be saying in the mirror. Also, favorite is I'd fuck me so hard. And I would, I totally would. So I love Buffalo Bill for going hard, giving us all some positive motivations to say in the fucking mirror. Yeah. Gotta deepen your voice when you when you say that. So, like, would you fuck me? Yeah. Okay.

SPEAKER_08 1:44:11

Sorry, I wasn't answering the question. Great, great. Now, obviously, this has been an educational experience so far, especially with the out of the context of Paris diving deep into that book, but I guarantee there's still a lot to learn in Max Factor Fiction.

SPEAKER_05 1:44:26

Alright, let's jump into some factor fiction. Even though the novel that inspired the film was also titled Silence of the Lambs, the animal Clarice tried to save in the novel from being slaughtered was literally a horse.

SPEAKER_09 1:44:38

Fiction. I'm gonna go fact.

SPEAKER_05 1:44:40

Paris, what's the answer?

SPEAKER_06 1:44:41

The answer is fact. She tries to save a horse from slaughter, but then also hears lambs crying, and I think they kind of just simplified it for the movie's sake, which feels like a good choice.

SPEAKER_07 1:44:51

Saving the horse makes so much more sense to me than trying to run away with a lamb.

SPEAKER_06 1:44:56

But the horse was big. She struggled more with the horse than she did with the lamb.

SPEAKER_07 1:45:00

But you could ride a horse to safety.

SPEAKER_06 1:45:03

Oh, this was like an old dying horse that she couldn't ride.

SPEAKER_07 1:45:05

Well, we love him too.

SPEAKER_05 1:45:06

This horse was nothing but a burden. Now, like we've said, some of us may classify this as more of a psychological thriller than a horror film, but it was listed in Entertainment Weekly's top five scariest movies of all time.

SPEAKER_07 1:45:18

That's the fact or fiction. Entertainment weekly.

SPEAKER_05 1:45:20

There you go.

SPEAKER_07 1:45:21

This is where you get your uh That's where I got my news, obviously. That's the quality of our fact and fiction here. I'm going fact because it sounds like it's not the truth, but it is a fact that they put it on their list. Sounds like it's coming from Intention Weekly. I'm done.

SPEAKER_05 1:45:34

I think this sounds like a fact. It is a fact number four, to be precise.

SPEAKER_07 1:45:38

It's not one of the top five scariest movies. It's a great movie. That's it.

SPEAKER_11 1:45:42

People don't have like the they ain't us, they don't know how to review movies like us. People don't know how to review movie movies like us. They also don't watch horror movies. So this would probably be scary.

SPEAKER_10 1:45:52

Someone's like, oh my god.

SPEAKER_09 1:45:53

Very true.

SPEAKER_06 1:45:54

I'm curious what what else was on that list.

SPEAKER_05 1:45:56

You know, we should look it up. We won't. Titanic. Hey, as a kid, Bambi, that part, you know, where his losing his mom, that part was scary as a kid.

SPEAKER_10 1:46:03

No.

SPEAKER_05 1:46:04

It's horrifying. It's trauma fine. It's sad.

SPEAKER_10 1:46:05

It wasn't scary. Right.

SPEAKER_05 1:46:07

Well, all right, let's let's move on then. So, like we've mentioned, there's other movies related to the Hannibal character. Uh, the first in the novels was, of course, Red Dragon. So they actually made a movie based off that. Before this movie, it was called Manhunter, like we've mentioned earlier in the episode. So Dino De Laurentis produced Manhunter, and of course the movie was a major flop. That's why none of us have probably watched it. So while he wanted the option of returning to produce this film, Manhunter's failure blocked his attempt from rejoining the cannibal goodness.

SPEAKER_09 1:46:39

Fact. Sounds about right. So many details, because I know you right now. Fact.

SPEAKER_05 1:46:43

Well, what's the answer? Is this a fact or is this a fiction?

SPEAKER_06 1:46:46

This is mostly a fiction, right? Indeed. They were struggling to get the rights to it, and he was just like, you know what, just take the rights. I don't want anything to do with this. Really?

SPEAKER_05 1:46:54

He passed on the opportunity to produce this, mostly because of how badly, you know, Manhunter went. But of course, this movie was amazing, like literally winning awards, so he returned as a producer for Hannibal and Red Dragon. Number four. The skull-like pattern on the Death's Head moth in this film's poster is not accurate to nature. As it was actually based on an artwork by Salvador Dolly.

SPEAKER_02 1:47:15

Fact. I would love for that to happen, so fact. I'm pretty sure this moth exists. Fiction.

SPEAKER_05 1:47:21

Oh, the moth does exist.

SPEAKER_02 1:47:22

But the pattern, mad moths here.

SPEAKER_05 1:47:24

I'm sticking with fiction. This one is a fact, though. I'm so sorry. So it does look skull-like in nature. However, what's interesting is, you know, this was from the movies poster based on the artwork by Salvador Dali. So scientists believe that the pattern on this moth is actually an imitation of a bee, since death's heads like to sneak into beehives and feast on all that delicious honey.

SPEAKER_10 1:47:48

What jerks?

SPEAKER_05 1:47:49

I know. I mean, honey's delicious, so I don't blame them. I love some honey.

SPEAKER_10 1:47:52

Yeah, but they're about to be in s uh extinct.

SPEAKER_05 1:47:55

The moth doesn't know this.

SPEAKER_08 1:47:58

Doesn't a moth have a brain? Doesn't he know this? The moth is uh fucking tuning into Nat Geo and CNN. We need to school the moths. What are the what are the bee levels like today?

SPEAKER_05 1:48:10

Oh crap, I should really cut back on bees. Gotta catch them all. And last for tonight, the house used for Jane Gum's creepedastic residence in the film was in Ted Levine's hometown. And much to his surprise during scouting, it was actually the house next door to his high school girlfriend's house.

SPEAKER_07 1:48:28

Fiction. I don't feel like this was a house at all. Fact.

SPEAKER_06 1:48:31

I'm gonna say fiction. I've read some things about this house, but this didn't come up.

SPEAKER_05 1:48:35

Oh, well, this is a fact. Ooh.

SPEAKER_02 1:48:38

I got it.

SPEAKER_05 1:48:39

So he was surprised, of course, that they decided to film in his hometown, but then next level stuff, like he knew where this house was, and that's wild to me.

SPEAKER_09 1:48:47

I would not want my neighbor's house to be on a movie like this. It'd be really weird.

SPEAKER_05 1:48:51

Well, it sounds like they've already moved, so it's not a problem.

SPEAKER_11 1:48:54

Oh, okay, yeah.

SPEAKER_06 1:48:55

I will tell y'all that house actually sold a couple years ago for $300,000. So for a first-time homebuyer, like you can definitely get a mortgage and buy this house. I'm thinking about it.

SPEAKER_07 1:49:05

Okay.

SPEAKER_05 1:49:06

Hey, look, in Ohio, that's actually pretty high.

SPEAKER_06 1:49:08

So the basement was elaborate and so much square footage.

SPEAKER_05 1:49:12

I don't know if that was actually part of the house, though. The basement with the well in it.

SPEAKER_07 1:49:15

Couldn't have been.

SPEAKER_06 1:49:16

If it's not included, I'm not buying.

SPEAKER_07 1:49:18

Oh, it's like the first picture on Zilla. I would like to note, as one last tidbit that we didn't mention earlier, the body in the bathtub in that basement or in the back of the house, wherever it was location-wise, disgusting. Made my skin crawl. I think it was Miss Littman. It was terrible. That's all.

SPEAKER_05 1:49:37

Well, I'm glad this movie made everyone's skin crawl, but this was our factor fiction.

SPEAKER_08 1:49:42

Well, you thought that was a fact or fiction, but uh, you should have double tapped Fact or Fiction Back from the Dead, I have one more for you.

SPEAKER_05 1:49:47

Ooh.

SPEAKER_08 1:49:48

Martha Stewart and Anthony Hopkins dated briefly during production. Following the film's release, Stewart actually broke it off with him because she couldn't unsee him as Hannibal Lecter. Fact. Fact, because I

SPEAKER_09 1:50:00

That's fucking awesome.

SPEAKER_08 1:50:01

I hope.

SPEAKER_05 1:50:02

This is one that I don't know, but I want to go for fact because Martha Stewart seems wild and why not?

SPEAKER_07 1:50:08

Actually, so if anything, maybe a fiction.

SPEAKER_05 1:50:10

Right, because she probably would have been like, She's into it. I'm into it.

SPEAKER_07 1:50:13

Fiction would be she's into it. I'm going back to fiction.

SPEAKER_05 1:50:15

Yeah, I'm gonna I'm still gonna say it's a fact, though. Because I think while I think she's wild, I think back then, it you know, this was like prior to going to prison or whatever, like she probably wasn't that freaky yet.

SPEAKER_07 1:50:25

She just didn't get caught yet. Chris, tell us.

SPEAKER_08 1:50:29

Alright, well, I'm sorry to to give you this news. It is 100% a fact. That's insane, and I don't blame her, to be fair. Yeah, so Alexis may be into Hannibal, but Martha Stewart definitely is not. The craft god couldn't handle it. And with that, we conclude our episode on the silence of the lambs. I think we have sufficiently silenced those lambs uh since it earned a universal slash. That sounds a little morbid, but it's fine. While we've certainly had a lot of discussion here, you know, there's a ton of psychology to break down. There's also the way this movie has aged over time since its release in 1991. The conversation doesn't end here. Alright, we want to know your input, your views. You know, if you're one of our listeners who saw this, you know, in theaters in 1991, please let us know what that experience was like. And, you know, watching it for the first time at the time. Keep in mind there are a number of ways you can reach out to us, starting with our website, hackerslash.com, and our social media accounts on Facebook, Instagram, and Twitter.

SPEAKER_07 1:51:26

And if you have ever felt the need to wear a mask that covers your mouth because you're too into biting, you can hit us up at hackerslash.com slash contact, where you can leave us an audio message, especially if you're international. Or you can hit us up on the Hackerslash Hotline. Our number is 757-606-0128. You can text us or call us there.

SPEAKER_08 1:51:45

Or you can also slide into Alexis' DMs. I'd love that, please. Good point.

SPEAKER_05 1:51:50

Oh my god. Or if you can still hear the lambs crying, feel free to send us an email to feedback at hackerslash.com.

SPEAKER_06 1:51:56

And if you've enjoyed listening to this episode, consider becoming one of our patrons. You can visit patreon.com slash hacker slash to earn cool perks for as low as one dollar a month, just like our friend Ryan from New Jersey.

SPEAKER_08 1:52:07

We'll see you next time. Goodbye, Clarice.