210: The Howling (1981)

SPEAKER_00 0:04

That's what happens in this movie?

SPEAKER_02 0:06

A sex cult? Greetings and salutations, and welcome to Hacker Slash. If you're joining us again, welcome back. You know me, but I don't know you. Why is that? If this is your first time listening, welcome to the party. We are a horror movie review podcast dedicated to telling you whether a movie is a hack, a total joke, a waste of time, or a slash. Totally killer, pun intended. We believe horror is for everyone, and as such, we're rating these movies with a perspective we've gained from our varying walks of life and the flavors of fear we fancy most. My name is Chris, I'm your friendly neighborhood slasher enthusiast. This week I'm joined by the gore lover Alexis, hey everyone, and the cowardly creeper Ryan. What you ladies need is a good retriever. Last year we checked out an iconic Lycanthrope film that won an Academy Award for Rick Baker's practical effects. This week, we're checking out the project Baker abandoned to make an American Werewolf in London happen. A project he left in the hands of Rob Botton. Before we get down to business though, we have some follow-up.

SPEAKER_00 1:07

So we have some follow-up for Pet Cemetery. And I wasn't on this episode. Paris also missed this episode. It was, however, a one hack, two slash situation on our show. And the poll results show that it's pretty similar there with our audience. So it's a 73% slash and 27% hack, which feels like close enough. It feels like Chris is actually like on the odd side of things this time, which is strange, rare.

SPEAKER_02 1:32

Well, I just again, you know, I think I said on that episode, I said it when we did the remake of Pet Cemetery. Love the book. Felt like the remake came closer. Don't really care for the original that much.

SPEAKER_01 1:43

And Mac and I just have some nostalgia around it, so like lots of it.

SPEAKER_02 1:48

Genuinely in our live chat right now, Rob just said people are victims of nostalgia when it comes to this movie.

SPEAKER_00 1:53

So and that's what a lot of our comments say too. We have one from Nico on Twitter who said, I remember this on USA Network, which is hilarious. I actually like the dad. A lot of folks say he's a snooze while Gage was so damn lovable. Turns out him and I are 86 babies. We also had Craig, one of our patrons, say, It's a childhood memory for me. I think certain films just speak to you. I'm a huge animal lover, and I would totally bury my babies to bring them back because I prefer animals to humans, which is nothing we can blame you for. The zombie animals? I mean, it depends on how cuddly they are. Craig also said as a child, Zelda scared the living crap out of me, and I think that's the fog memory of this movie being terrifying. But if I would ever show someone a horror film about death, I'd show them it follows.

SPEAKER_02 2:35

Ooh, yes, the inevitability of death. Fantastic there, versus the trial and error of thinking we can control things.

SPEAKER_00 2:43

And then Amber, another patron, said this movie, like most Stephen King adaptations, brings back childhood memories. Normally I would give this a hack, but after having recently read the book, I honestly don't know where I stand with this film.

SPEAKER_02 2:54

I think it throws in a curveball, right? I don't know. This movie just it was a swing and a miss, but I am curious to see if they'll ever do it again. Remake this movie for a third a second time?

SPEAKER_01 3:04

Wow.

SPEAKER_02 3:05

Girl, I mean, we had how many fucking nightmare on Elm Streets and Friday the 13th and Texas Chainsaw Massacre?

SPEAKER_01 3:11

That is so true. It it's hard to believe that there would be another remake in my lifetime, but Pet Cemetery in space.

SPEAKER_00 3:19

There you go. And last but not least, we just want to shout out two of our new patrons, Ashley and Robert. Welcome to the squad.

SPEAKER_02 3:25

Oh, it's so good to have you. And I think Robert's actually even joining us tonight in our live stream. Yes, it's very cool.

SPEAKER_00 3:31

I'm weirded out still that you listen to us. Any of you humans. Very true.

SPEAKER_02 3:36

And that's our follow-up. Well, in 1977, Gary Brenner published a novel that tells the tale of a middle-class woman who's brutally attacked in her home and travels to a secluded mountain village with her husband to recuperate. Tensions eventually rise between her and her husband, however, when her anxiety peaks as she continues to hear a strange howling coming from the nearby woods. Four years later, audiences were introduced to a film by the novel's same title. The film is only loosely inspired by Brandner's work, however, and has earned a reputation for its renowned practical effects. This week, we're talking about the 1981 film The Howling. Who's seen this one before?

SPEAKER_01 4:13

I can tell you I never heard of this, nor have I ever seen it.

SPEAKER_00 4:17

So when The Howling was on our calendar, I was, I don't know, I just didn't even think anything of it. And then I looked at the artwork and realized this is the other werewolf movie that everyone brings up when I start talking about American Werewolf in London. So I hadn't seen it and I didn't know that it was what it was, but I went in ready for another werewolf movie that has a lot of information around it.

SPEAKER_02 4:40

Yeah, this is one of those that I haven't personally seen. I've seen a bunch of random werewolf movies, right? And I think when you look at 1981, this is a time when there's a lot of werewolf content coming about. But this is one that flew past my radar, just completely off of it. Didn't even know the scent of it, the general description of it, aside from that, there'd be werewolves. Now, when we did our American Werewolf in London episode, learned a lot more about it, right? Learn about uh how heralded it is and how acclaimed it is for its effects. So going into this one, I really, really expected it to be phenomenal. And I expected it to not quite have the same, I think, comedic underpinnings as an American werewolf in London, but I didn't quite know what to expect from there. I left it like a very blank slate walking into this, aside from thinking these effects are about to be so dope.

SPEAKER_00 5:33

So I feel pretty similarly, you kind of warned me like there's there's less of the comedic value, which I think makes sense in a werewolf movie. I couldn't remember exactly what's been said about this movie. I just know that it's a part of the conversation when you talk about American Werewolf in London. So I went in expecting an effects situation. Like, I don't know if I was expecting really good effects or comparable to American Werewolf in London, not good. I don't know. I knew they'd be practical. I knew this movie would have a lot to do with the werewolf and how it looks, and that's honestly mostly what I cared about when I went into watching this.

SPEAKER_01 6:09

I didn't have any expectation, I think. I'm pretty sure I just walked into it really blind. I was like, okay, American Werewolf in London, probably not as funny or as witty, but probably worth a watch. I don't know.

SPEAKER_00 6:23

I've never watched a lot of werewolf movies, so basically, with the two that we've done on the podcast, you're looking at like most of the werewolf content that exists in the world.

SPEAKER_01 6:32

But Underworld, there's so many on that. So I guess I know that, but I don't know anything in the 80s from Werewolf. But while watching this, I mean, I was like, what is going on? Because I wasn't sure how this story was going to, you know, arc in its portrayal of the whole thing, but I was just very confused the entire time. So it had my attention for a little bit, but I was just more like confused about what the hell was going on, the mechanics of everything, mostly a lot of sex in this movie that I was confused about. So that kept my attention, but nothing else really did.

SPEAKER_02 7:08

I feel the confusion in a real way. What I think is interesting though is that this movie starts out and it doesn't just like throw you to the wolves literally, like right as you get there, right? It's not something that starts out with this overwhelming, it's a full moon, and you hear howling in the winds, and oh, what's this going on out here? What's the legend, the lore, the werewolf? It's nothing like that. We get thrown into the hustle and bustle of a news station. We get thrown in, and there has been a lot of stuff that happened that led to the moment that we're thrust into, and it starts in a way that immediately captured my intention because I'm like, all right, cool. This is the kind of like true crime thriller drama kind of vibe that I would be really into watching. And there are moments of the opening scene in this movie that I find chilling and creepy as hell, and it got my attention there. What's interesting though, and and something that you know I'll talk about in terms of surprises in just a bit, this movie really takes its time getting you to the werewolves. And I think it's building on a lot of story, but it also felt very, very dark to a certain extent. And that's not something that I was really emotionally prepared for going into it.

SPEAKER_00 8:24

Yeah, I I've I'm a at a bit of a loss for words of how I felt watching this. I think honestly, knowing that the effects would be something I would care about kept me entertained and engaged with the movie. I was just kind of waiting and waiting and waiting to get more and more of that werewolf. Because I gotta know. I gotta see what it looks like. I gotta see if we're transforming on screen. Like I just I need it. I don't know why. I don't know when I became werewolf girl, but it's something that I care about. And aside from that, if that wasn't a part of this movie, I don't know if I would have been engaged. Like, there's there's plenty of things in this story where I was just kind of like, well, okay, well, we'll we'll go with it. And you know, the sex is one of those things where I was just like, okay, like we're here. So I don't know. I feel kind of torn about it, like a little bit meh and a little bit excited. So if it was with vampires, would you have been disappointed? If if we were waiting to see like vampire transformation and got the same story, I don't think I would have cared. Huh. She cares about the fur though. For some reason, it's all Rick Baker's fault.

SPEAKER_01 9:30

That's the truth. You like the hair, don't you?

SPEAKER_02 9:32

Not usually. I feel that. I mean, again, like this movie really takes its time. So I think because you had some knowledge of what to expect going into it, you knew that there would be something that's semi-worth the weight on the other side of it, or at least something that you imagined would be worth the wait that made it worth getting through. But I think what surprised me most is how much this movie holds back on its werewolves until you hit a certain point. This movie really takes its time building a world and dropping you in it with these characters, and it could be for better, it could be for worse, but it it's certainly intentional in doing so. And I can't say enough of this, whether like the darkness of this film and this story is traumatic. It's something that like I didn't feel comfortable watching this movie, and that is so rare that that happens. But I think one of the things that really, really surprised me was even just the approach to werewolves, period. This breaks the rules of werewolves. This doesn't follow, and we we obviously get into some canonical lore and stuff like that, but when you think of a werewolf movie and you think of the style of werewolf, this doesn't really follow that. It does some different things here that I really appreciated.

SPEAKER_00 10:43

You know, I am surprised by a similar thing, which is how long it takes for us to get a werewolf. But then I'm also really surprised by how much freaking werewolf we get once we get them. Like it's they held them back for us for so long, and then it's just like literally a werewolf party. And I don't know if it was necessarily a good thing. Maybe too much werewolf. Maybe we need a little more restraint when it comes to the hairy wolf.

SPEAKER_01 11:07

I don't know if I could agree with that, but I think having such, I don't want to say low expectations, but they were just no expectations that the effects in this movie were what really surprised me. And especially, and we'll talk about in the second half, but especially these transformations that you see, which I was like, wow. But then I was also disappointed because there was a few other effects that I'm like, wow, you did that, but then you show us something shitty like this. So can't wait to talk about that in the visuals. But the discrepancies between the effects are kind of disjointed for me a little bit.

SPEAKER_00 11:43

Yeah, I have to agree. There are some times where these werewolves look menacing and they're very creepy, and then there's sometimes where I'm like, is this a stuffed animal? And sometimes their growl was like a little gentle, like a little soft, and I was like, This isn't a werewolf noise at all. Um, I I don't think this was scary, but there are some scary things that happen in this movie. It didn't scare me. It doesn't, I don't think werewolves are the kind of thing that sit with most people because they're just a bit, you know, mythological. But there's some creepy stuff. There's some things that could haunt you here.

SPEAKER_02 12:19

Yeah, this is one of those where the wolf isn't what's scary about this. What's scary about this is people. What's scary about this is how easily scenarios can be manipulated, and then some of the moments towards the beginning of the film, it reminded me almost of I wasn't quite as scared, but uh when a stranger calls, the first and last 15 to 20 minutes of that movie is chilling and terrifying. However, in this one, I would say it's more so just the beginning, the first like 10 minutes. It makes it made my skin crawl. And I won't say that the entire thing is scary, but for sure there's a moment that I'm like, this is a little bit triggering for me, and I don't feel good about it.

SPEAKER_01 13:01

Yeah, they do build up this sort of atmosphere in the beginning of the movie, which did capture my attention. I wouldn't necessarily say that it scared me, but it did have me on the edge of my seat. I don't know, something about werewolves isn't scary. Like you said, it's probably mythological than most, but I don't know. I've I feel like I'm more afraid of vampires than I am werewolves. And I feel like vampires exist more than werewolves would be. I'm sorry, what? I don't know. They all watch too much twilight. I'm like, they're out there, but not werewolves. It's because you like dogs. That's exactly what this is.

SPEAKER_02 13:37

You like where you're not afraid as of werewolves. I love dogs. I'd like to have one. Werewolves are fine, they just, you know, you just gotta fucking watch out for them once in a full moon.

SPEAKER_00 13:46

I do think there's a scale for probability of existence, and for some reason you're not wrong. Like, vampires is closer to the possibility of existence than werewolves. I'm really not sure why that makes any sense though. We should do this. This is the list that we need to do. Probability of existence for mythological monsters. So and I know obviously we're gonna spend a lot of time tonight talking about American Werewolf in London and these two movies against each other, obviously, because they're both prominent werewolf movies. But aside from the werewolf content, I think that this movie was probably original in its time. But having watched this in 2022, it doesn't feel particularly original to me. It feels like some other things from the story to the setting. There's there's several things that popped into my mind while I watched this. So I'm meh on originality, but I know that I'm watching it in 2022.

SPEAKER_02 14:39

I don't even know about that though. Like, regardless of the of the 2022 of it all, this movie does some stuff with werewolves that is very unique to it. And it's a movie that defies expectations and makes you question a little bit of what you know about werewolves in general. And I'm a fan of that. I think this absolutely is original. In fact, it's it's original even in the sense that they took some generous liberties when uh adapting this from the original novel. We talk about like what the what I shared earlier when describing this movie, what happens to that woman in that in that book isn't what happens to her here in this movie. So I think even within the context of adapting literature, this movie is original. So I feel good about it having unique originality points all throughout.

SPEAKER_00 15:30

Can I confess the most random thing that this movie reminded me of? It gave me Basket Case vibes with like everybody just like running around doing stuff and like the little shop they go into and everything. It just all gives me like the side characters of Basket Case, you know.

SPEAKER_01 15:48

I'm a I'm a mixed bag tonight on this originality. I mean, I've seen werewolf movies. Yes, there's some folklore that's passed down and maybe originated slightly around this time, possibly, and just carried on. But I mean, what this movie does, even though I'm not a fan of it, it brings a few different vibes for me that I think are than I've seen in any other werewolf movie.

SPEAKER_02 16:13

Does that apply to its really pessimistic ending too? Yes. Wow, okay. So I I loved it. I know it's it's a little bit of a down note in in some regards. I love the ending to this movie though. I think it it drops you in. There's a mo there's an element of what happens that you're not quite granted a hundred percent confirmation that that's exactly what happened. I think you can expect what happens, but I love the direction they went.

SPEAKER_00 16:39

I'm cool with the ending. It seemed a bit expected in some ways. Not all of it, but some bits of it. I'm down for it though.

SPEAKER_01 16:46

Yeah, I mean, I don't hate the ending, but it was an obvious ending for me, or something that would have been done before. I think it was a cool nod at the end end. I know we started talking about end and then the end end, but the end end, I was like, oh, interesting. So didn't disappoint me, but it wasn't over the top the best ending that I've ever seen.

SPEAKER_02 17:07

Okay, well, I'm hearing a real mixed bag here, so we'll see how this all shakes out as we approach our ratings. But before we actually score this movie, Alexis, what's our body count?

SPEAKER_01 17:16

We have a total of 10 deaths in this movie.

SPEAKER_02 17:19

And what about the animal report?

SPEAKER_00 17:21

Well, it's a werewolf movie, so it's a difficult animal report because usually the animals are the things doing the deed, literally. But there's some bad stuff that goes down in a werewolf movie, and the animals are as subject to pain as the humans.

SPEAKER_02 17:37

Oh, that sounds complicated and emotional. But for now, let's go ahead and get into our ratings. The Howling from 1981. Was it a hacker slash?

SPEAKER_01 17:45

So I watched this movie, and at the end I got what they were trying to tell me, but they were just there was like sex involved with this movie that like I wasn't really a fan of. And I don't know, it's just this weird thing. It reminds me of when I saw Weird Science as a kid, and I was like, but why do they have sex? Why is like one of the antagonists like have to be so sexy? A great question, really. It is a great question, and I was just not a fan of that part, and I think that's what just kind of took me out of the movie per se. But I do appreciate that it has some awesome effects. I love how it drops you into this scene and you're really trying to figure out what's going on. I love crime TV, so I feel like I was just trying to pick apart the pieces in the beginning. So, with that said, I mean, would I ever watch this again? No. And I think I'm also comparing this to an American Werewolf in London, which I think just had so many different layers to this, and this movie just didn't have that for me. So I'm gonna have to hack it.

SPEAKER_00 18:48

So I feel like my decision here has a lot of weight tonight because I go so hard for American Werewolf in London, and I too am very torn about this movie. I think the story doesn't do it for me. I later, when we get to the spoiler section, will give my like one-sentence synopsis of this movie because I think that's fun to do. And when you give a one-sentence synopsis of this movie, it's absolute chaos. Like, it's hard to say that a movie that is described in what happens in this movie is a good movie, but I don't know. I don't feel like it's bad. I think the effects are strong in some places, and I also think that they're not as good in other places. And I'm sorry, I know this isn't like one versus the other, but American Werewolf in London is the same time period, like you know, Rick Baker here and then there. Like it just it does matter. And I think I'm gonna slash it, but it's like a gentle slash. I really don't love the story of this movie, but I don't think it's bad. It's a it's it's a time piece, it is a a piece from its era. Don't expect anything more. It is like misogynist, hot mess, no sensitivity, some some rogue topics that are sensitive and not handled gently at all. But I think it's good enough to be a slash, and you know I'm a hack until proven otherwise, kind of girls. So I definitely do prefer an American werewolf in London, but I'm not mad at this, but I do understand why Rick Baker jumped ship.

SPEAKER_01 20:29

You're going for a hack. That's what I'm so confused. And then you're like, but I'm gonna give it a slash. It's okay. I was just very confused. Uh just like our patrons listening.

SPEAKER_02 20:39

I mean, I see the direction you're going in, Ryan. There's a lot to this movie. On one hand, you have some celebrated effects, and other moments those effects are kind of like, whoa, what are we doing here? And some moments we have an incredibly rich and uh terrifying story in some regards, and in other moments, it's like, what is this joke that I'm semi-missing the punchline to? What am I not seeing here? Now, I watched this movie a few days ago, and I watched it at night, and I found myself creeped out by the first scene of this movie, and it was enough to hook my attention. And when I consider the the wholeness of this story, it's got some problems, but at the end of the day, it's got werewolves, the effects are mostly okay. I think there are some high points and some low points, and we'll talk about that later on in the second half of the episode. But more than that, it kept my attention. Which I wasn't expecting it to be a situation where it couldn't keep my attention, but I didn't expect to be as enthralled. And I think in some moments, in some ways, I was a little bit more interested in the plot to this movie than I was in American Werewolf in London. And I know, it's not it's not that the it's not the performances, it's not the effects. I think genuinely just the nature of this story I find a little bit more interesting. Interesting than American Werewolf in London. An American Werewolf in London is just one guy with a bad problem, you know what I mean? But in this, it's a lot more sinister and it's a lot darker. And for that, it's a slash.

SPEAKER_01 22:11

I wonder if Mac would agree with me. I know Paris would definitely hack this. Paris absolutely would.

SPEAKER_00 22:17

That might be why he's not here tonight. I don't know. I feel like Mac uh I well, one, I feel like Mac has probably seen this, and then two, I feel like he's probably a slash.

SPEAKER_02 22:27

Yeah, well, that's neither here nor there because it's Ladies' Night tonight on Hackerslash, and the howling has earned one hack and two slashes. Now, you can find this movie streaming online on AMC Plus if you so have a subscription, but check it out. Then join us in the second half so we can actually dig into the spoilers together. See you in a bit.

SPEAKER_00 23:03

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SPEAKER_02 23:35

Welcome back, folks. You are now entering the spoiler zone for the howling from 1981, which has earned two slashes and one hack. Now we have a lot to get to here, but before we get into the specifics of our ratings, we have the matter of gore to attend to. Okay, my favorite kill is one that makes me a little sad because I was hoping that she'd make it longer in the movie. But Terry, I think the first real consequential human death that we get was so good. And I mean, I think the discovery of her body later is a little bit weird, sure, but I think the tension of that moment and knowing that she was so close uh to arriving and actually, you know, providing some aid here, I really enjoyed it.

SPEAKER_00 24:38

Yeah, I think Terry kind of has to be your favorite kill. There are other kills, but I really have other favorite gore moments more than kills. But obviously Terry's experience with the werewolf was the most menacing, and there were no guns involved or anything, so that's obviously the best kill.

SPEAKER_01 24:56

I think mine's gonna have to be a collective group of werewolf kills in the barn-ish place. I think that was a barn.

SPEAKER_00 25:02

But were those kills?

SPEAKER_01 25:05

Well, some of them weren't, some of them are applied because there are 10 deaths, and some of those are werewolves, but I liked it because it was a cool graphic to see them, you know, reach through the slats. You know, I can only imagine what it smelled like with burning fur.

SPEAKER_02 25:19

I think it's fair. I think some of the best gore you get in this movie is the werewolf gore itself, not just like from the transformation, but I'm sorry, a little bit of uh werewolf arm getting cut off, seen a little bit of blood, seen a little bit of stuff. It's kind of gross. Kind of gory.

SPEAKER_01 25:32

No, it is really gross. But my thing is like you really don't get your first kill till like an hour into the freaking movie. And that's where I'm disappointed in this movie. I mean, you get that, you know, I think it's Eddie. Eddie's death in the beginning, you presume, but when they pull out his body, it's not there anymore. So to me, it's I'm like, I've waited this entire movie, and you're just gonna kill them off in like kind of different ways, not really creatively, but there were some stuff. Like there was, you know, when they had the brain on the table at the medical examiner's office, like that caught my eye. Like subtle things had caught my eye, and my favorite portion of the gore definitely has to deal with the werewolves, specifically when Eddie's pulling out the bullets from his skin. That is so crazy. And you know, I think the visuals are just so greed in this movie, and the gore just kind of is a side piece on this, if that makes a little bit of sense. It's like it's there, but the effects are what really carries the movie.

SPEAKER_00 26:35

Yeah, I think what this movie does that's interesting is like normally the effects go towards the gore, but because it's a werewolf movie, the effects all go toward the werewolves, and there's like a little bit of gore effect, but it's definitely not the prominent part of the movie. So obviously, I have to have a little moment talking about effects in this movie because again, this was a Rick Baker project before he left and went to American Werewolf in London. And I think there's some similarities in the transformation that we get with this werewolf, but the biggest similarity that I thought was interesting in regards to effects is how the actors from this movie being a little bit traumatized by the makeup. And so, if you don't recall or if you didn't know, in American Werewolf in London, when the best friend is dressed as a dead guy, while he's sitting in the makeup chair, he looks in the mirror and he talks about how freaked out he felt in that makeup. Now, he wasn't in the werewolf makeup, but he was decaying and he had that skin hanging off his neck. And in this movie, there's a very similar thing. The only difference is in this scenario, it is the werewolf that freaks out. So Robert talks about how he's sitting six hours in the makeup chair and he thinks he's done all these things, had these lead roles, put in all this effort, trained at Yale, and now he's sitting here getting his face just melted under makeup. And he calls it a low-budget horror movie, which is hilarious. And I just have to say, like, maybe there's something to it. Maybe the makeup on the werewolf movies is like a little too intense. Maybe we're not supposed to go that hard with it.

SPEAKER_02 28:09

I mean, maybe it is intense, and I think some of the um the pumping, like the bubbling of the skin of the werewolves was just ooh.

SPEAKER_00 28:19

Yeah, and I think I don't know, I'm obviously kind of an effects nerd in some ways. So I spent a lot of time like looking at what's going on. It was pretty clear to me that everything that was happening under the face was like airbags, and same with the hand that was cut off and everything like that. But in case you didn't know, that's basically what was going on. That's where all that skin was bubbling up and everything was airbags underneath. But I didn't think it was like cheap. Like you couldn't tell unless you're paying attention to the effects, which is pretty cool.

SPEAKER_01 28:46

Yeah, I totally agree because it seemed very continuous because I feel like when you see transformations like that, they cut and then they come back and they're completely transformed. And you actually got to see it, and I was like, oh wow, this is so cool how they did this. And I give it this movie so many props for that.

SPEAKER_00 29:04

Yeah, so let's talk about transformations for a minute. I personally feel that the transitions between the steps are better in this than American Werewolf in London. Like there's a few moments in American Werewolf in London where it kind of jumps and you're like, where'd that growth come from? But here it's like very smooth. I feel like we see every step of the way.

SPEAKER_02 29:24

Yeah, you're not wrong, but may I just say that I don't really like that because it was too fucking long for me.

SPEAKER_00 29:33

So that that's the end of my thing, is like we see so much transformation. It it feels like it's like 10 minutes. And by the time you get through it, you're like, all right, well, like now I've seen the sausage get made. It's not scary at all. It's in broad daylight. Well, not broad daylight, like American Werewolf in London, but it's just it lost all its creepiness because you see literally everything happen.

SPEAKER_02 29:56

Yeah. And I think the problem is it's it's kind of like the concept of someone saying, if you were to jump out of a plane and fall to your death thousands and thousands and thousands of feet, you would scream because you're freaking out, and then at some point you'd stop screaming because you almost kind of get bored, right? Like, I think that's what this is. Yeah. Because the transformation isn't happening in pursuit of like homeboys just standing there changing, you know, at will, which is dope. But just like, oh, hold on. In about 30 minutes, I got you. And it was it was just like, how long are you gonna scream before you're like, all right, let's get going, guys.

SPEAKER_00 30:36

I got plans. Agreed. And then my last two things in regards to the transformations. I just want to note the first transformation is very long. The second transformation that we get with Eddie, that one's much better because it goes much faster. And it to me keeps all the horde that's built up in that point, all the all the fear. Last thing, the very end. I don't know if you felt like the transformation sucked. I felt like the transformation sucked. And it's actually because at the end they ran out of money, so they just did a like close-up transformation.

SPEAKER_01 31:04

Is that what happened when they were having sex by the campfire and they zoomed out? It literally looked like I had cut out figures and were like no putting them together.

SPEAKER_02 31:13

So actually, that's because of budget. That is the sex scene, is absolutely because of budget.

SPEAKER_01 31:20

Fucking horrible.

SPEAKER_00 31:21

So that wasn't what actually what I was talking about, though. The one I'm talking about is all the way at the end, the very last, the girl that transforms at the end.

SPEAKER_03 31:28

Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_00 31:28

She sucks. She doesn't even look like a werewolf, she just looks like a furry person. And they're literally in somebody's office doing it because they're out of money like that. Like, like literally poor people.

SPEAKER_02 31:37

It's hilarious. But here's the thing though, her actual transformation I like. The final product of what we see, goofy as fuck. Yeah. But the transformation I love. And I think the transformation of hers in particular, and like the emotion coming into that, and let's, you know, forget what her werewolf form looks like, the single tear rolling down, right? Knowing like what she's up against now. I absolutely loved that.

SPEAKER_01 32:06

It gave some humanity to her, and plus the whole purpose of that scene was to tell everyone about what's going on. So I definitely like that transformation. Thought it was I mean, it looked a little soft, but I think it was meant to be like that on purpose.

SPEAKER_02 32:20

I will say though that like transformations aside, that was not my favorite scene. And I gotta go back to how fucking chilling and weird and uncomfortable and intense the opening scene of this movie is.

SPEAKER_00 32:33

I think it's interesting you mentioned to me before I watched this that it was really creepy at the beginning. And I I think I got a bit distracted by the story because we really are just like dropped in that I could see some of it, but I it it wasn't as creepy to me. I thought it was.

SPEAKER_02 32:49

Yeah, it wasn't the necessarily like the whole idea of the story is creepy. It was Eddie's voice and the way he touched her in that theater, like the shit he made her fucking watch is disgusting. It's all of that that was so creepy. It was the way he said her name. It was the way he spoke to her. When I think of some of the books that I've read on serial killers, right? Or, let me take this back. There's an amazing book called The Gift of Fear, and it's talking about how you shouldn't really doubt your own intuition, and it gives a story of like some woman who was bringing groceries and you know, a can of cat food fell down her stairs, and some guy brings it up, and he seems perfectly nice, and then he ends up coming inside and they end up getting to know each other, and he's at her house one night. Um, they had just slept together, he goes to the kitchen, and he says he's gonna get a glass of water, and she hears a knife drawer open. And like in her mind, she's like, What the fuck? Why are you why do you have to open that drawer? When I think of that feeling that the reading that story gave me from that book, and I think about Eddie's fucking voice lurking in the shadows, her putting herself in this scenario and and with the intention of helping, but she doesn't realize how disconnected she is. She's not gonna really hear from them. They've completely lost track of her and she doesn't quite realize that, and she's just trying to stay brave and keep pressing forward. That was fucking creepy and chilling.

SPEAKER_01 34:24

Yeah, Chris, I also had that as my favorite scene. But I enjoy that scene for a different reason. I think because I do watch a lot of serial killer documentaries, that it was uh interesting to like be plopped into this scenario that you don't know what's going on, you don't know how long she's been in contact, and it's very, like you said, investigative journalism. And I was trying to figure out what's going on, and that's what really grabbed my attention. But also there was this sort of feeling that I had, and I wasn't sure whether it was a film, but it was very dreamlike. It was kind of hazy in the beginning, and it seemed like when the werewolves were present, that's when that kind of came into play. But especially during the first scene where they're setting up everything, which like more like a like a dreamy state, sort of. But I also enjoyed surprisingly getting to know all the characters at this like campfire that they're having. It was very kooky, and I know it was trying to be funny and it wasn't, but I'd enjoyed getting to know everyone and why they were at this retreat. It was weird, but it was very interesting at that point. So the my two favorite scenes definitely just kept my attention for this movie because the rest of it didn't.

SPEAKER_00 35:40

I think there's definitely something to be said about the beginning being really interesting. Like, I just love the little lines. There's something about the things that they would say in the 80s, and they all just feel so unnatural. Like the cops go out and they're like, Man, there's a lot of flatsum and jetsum out here tonight. I don't know where they're coming from, but uh I don't know where they're going, but whatever.

SPEAKER_02 36:01

It's something, and it's just so goofy. Yeah, I had that I had that exact quote written down, like, oh, this is like 80s cop in New York. That feels right.

SPEAKER_00 36:10

Yeah, that was my second beginning quote, but I really love to go for like a dry, out-of-context, hilarious thing. But yeah, it's just those those little things are interesting. I think my favorite scene is actually the wolf cabin, like going through and all these little things that are kind of scattered throughout. Like on the shelf, there's wolf chili, which is odd and hilarious. I saw that and I was like, what? And you know, I bet there was more stuff like that throughout because it's rare that a movie does something like that like one time, and it made me want to pay more attention and see what else I could see. I didn't catch a ton more of those things, and I wish I had, because that just tickled me. But that house was so weird, and like all the pictures on the walls, and everything was strange. And then of course it goes to a a great effect scene with that arm getting cut off, and it was disgusting and deflated and then re-inflated and ugh.

SPEAKER_02 37:01

Look, Ryan, you raise some great points. There's a lot of elements of this movie that feel super lived in. There's a lot of this uh of elements in this movie that feel like, damn, what a captivating setting. However, one of the things that drives me up the wall are some of the characters in this movie. Particularly generic brand Tom Atkins. And by that I mean the husband in this movie. What the fuck? There's also the gentleman that Karen works with, and he's like, who knows? Maybe she's pregnant. And it's like this typical man disp like dismissing the response of a woman and chalking you up to like some kind of estrogen craze, because I don't know what women are, they must be just be pregnant, they're all crazy. That drove me fucking nuts. For as strong as I think Eddie was in terms of being chilling and fucking terrifying in some ways, like when him saying she didn't feel a thing, Karen, none of them do, or I'm gonna light up your whole body, Karen, like the way that he says this shit and uses her name, it's like crossing a boundary of familiarity. And we know that he's been stalking her this whole time. He nailed his performance, but the husband couldn't give less of a fuck about the husband.

SPEAKER_00 38:12

So bad. And why does he look so much like Tom Atkins and still not be Tom Atkins? You know?

SPEAKER_01 38:18

Why? I don't know. I think all the men in this movie were trash. And you know, I'm not one to like sit there and go off on a tangent on why men are trash in movies, but this is one where I'm like, Bill, creepy. Something happens to your wife, and then right after that, like you're thinking about having sex with her after she just had some traumatic incident, like you're messed up in the head. And then you're just like, Well, I get he was attracted to her because he was a werewolf too, but I don't know. He just to me horrible. Also, this news editor where he was blaming how she was feeling on her possibly being pregnant, and then you know, mispronouncing an Asian name. And I was just like, you know what? This is too on the nose for 80s stereotypical shit, and I just I couldn't deal with it. Whether it it was for the time or not, I just it it it fell flat.

SPEAKER_00 39:09

It felt like they went out of their way in some moments to be like, this is what gross men say. Okay, got it. It's the 80s, but at the same time, was it really like this? I don't know. I feel like it didn't have to be.

SPEAKER_02 39:22

I don't think it had to be, but are we surprised at all that this man shows up with one woman and ends up having sex with another shortly thereafter?

SPEAKER_00 39:30

No, not at all. And let me just say, the Venn diagram that this movie creates with werewolves on one side and sex cult on the other side is like a weird intersection that I wasn't prepared for.

SPEAKER_02 39:43

This is like Wickerman, but with werewolves. Yeah. Ooh, yes.

SPEAKER_00 39:48

But why? And that's why I didn't like this movie. Because I thought that was stupid. I agree with you. I think the story of this movie kind of sucks. I don't like it. I don't listen. Are you guys ready for my my my one-line synopsis? Here we go. So a killer werewolf reached out to a news anchor, he gets killed, then her therapist is part of a werewolf sex cult, and they want to take as many people as possible. So he sends her there to heal from her trauma, and then she gets killed and turned into a werewolf. What? Yes. That's what happens in this movie? A sex cult? Yes.

SPEAKER_02 40:19

And a news anchor and a therapist? I think it's more like just a werewolf cult that happens to have a lot of sex, because like fuck it.

SPEAKER_00 40:26

Clearly spend a lot of time talking about their urges and their needs. Like, it is so strange. I cannot get behind the werewolf sex cult. I just can't. I don't care. I like you really, I just had to ignore that part of the story watching this.

SPEAKER_02 40:41

Oh, so you weren't a fan of the nymphomaniac who just kept seducing men?

SPEAKER_00 40:45

No. All of every person that was at that party was weird. And then when they were like back together at the end was weird, the whole sex cult thing was so weird. What I have in my notes here says the story is meh, this is why Rick Baker left.

SPEAKER_02 41:00

And the funny thing is that it wasn't, though. So imagine if he stayed. Like what what what more could we have gotten?

SPEAKER_00 41:06

I don't know. I mean, I think it's not like he wasn't at all connected to it, right? Because I think he's really good friends with somebody from it, right? Isn't that the whole point? That whole shebang. So it's not like he wasn't a part of it at all. And I think you can see plenty of similarities between the two. I just, yeah, I don't know. The story is so much better for me in American Werewolf in London. And Chris, I can't believe that you like it as much as you do because it's like an oddly misogynist trauma story for no reason.

SPEAKER_02 41:31

No, for sure it is, and I think I I would want to see this movie done differently. And I I know that there's a movie later on in the franchise that goes back to more like the original story, like the original novel, and it's supposed to be truer to that. So I'm curious to see how that goes. What does it for me is the whole idea of a plot as wild and convoluted as it is, where there is this entire cult, an entire pack really of werewolves, but a they're bipedal, and b they can transform at will. It's not like they're conditioned to have to be victims or or to a full moon, you know what I mean? It's not something that just like happens and disrupts their ordinary lives. These people are out here vibing, thriving, and being werewolves. You know what I mean? Like that's just putting on a different shirt for dinner. That's all it is. It's like changing your skin, like you change your outfit. It's insane. So I love that. And I love how this movie drops us into that original moment. Dee Wallace, as Karen, I really enjoy, even though she spends so much of the movie semi-clueless about what's actually happening to her. But I love it because it feels like an arc. It feels like, you know, with the way that she's composing herself in their in the opening, she feels like a woman of conviction who knows what the hell she's doing. And then this amnesia that she's suddenly struck by because of her trauma really has her sit down a few pegs, and this movie is her trying to work herself back up. I like how serious that story is. American Werewolf in London, also very serious. I do enjoy it, but it's funnier and it's more charming on the way through that seriousness. You know what I mean? It's not that I dislike it, it's just different.

SPEAKER_01 43:17

Different in the sense that it could balance a serious tone and a comedic tone as well. So giving a multitude of layers. This movie only has one, and that might be her journey. Then you just got all this nonsense thrown in.

SPEAKER_00 43:31

You know what this little like gang of werewolves just like existing and thriving reminds me of? Dr. Sleep. It reminds me so much of Dr. Sleep. Like the way they're just like hanging around. Even the one chick looks, the nymphomaniac looks like the chick from Dr. Sleep, the hat girl. She looks like Hat Queen.

SPEAKER_02 43:48

Okay. I okay, look, I don't think Marsha looks like that. I think so. She looks very different, but that's fine. It's neither here nor there. No. But I get what you mean. I get what you mean. There's like a spooky group of folks and there is a strong woman in the center of it. That's what I'm hearing.

SPEAKER_00 44:05

Yeah, and they're trying to like take over and last and feed their needs. I have a random line that I really need to talk about because I thought it was hilarious in this movie, and it means nothing. It is the most insignificant moment of this movie, but I love it, okay?

SPEAKER_02 44:20

I hope it's the same quote I have written down.

SPEAKER_00 44:22

It is at the gas station. Whoa, buddy, not all of us have enough money for a Mazda. I was thinking that too. I'm like, a Mazda must have been like top car back then. I thought it was like a Benz when he pulled up or something. I mean, he pulled up and I was like, dang, that's a nice car because I like cars. And I was thinking, what is that? And then he says, not all of us got enough money for a Mazda. And I died laughing.

SPEAKER_02 44:44

Man. Okay, so my innocuous quote was that boy is pop bloodhound. And I'm like, fuck yeah, because he's a werewolf. That's great. There were there were a few good ones. The dog puns in this were so good. I loved how uh deeply they went into just the werewolf of it all. That was fantastic. Going to an occult bookshop. I went to an occult bookshop in Savannah, Georgia, just for shits and giggles. And I would I would exactly do what Chris and Terry did here. Absolutely loved it.

SPEAKER_00 45:14

Oh, that guy there had a couple of good lines too. He was playing like the most typical man. Everyone in this movie was just like a character of a person.

SPEAKER_01 45:22

Especially the cop. Like the cop was the most cop I've ever seen in a movie.

SPEAKER_02 45:27

Wow.

SPEAKER_00 45:27

The characters were characters. No, no, no. Very funny. The characters were caricatures, okay? 80s caricatures of a cop, etc.

SPEAKER_02 45:37

Okay. You may say that all these people were caricatures of characters, but there was never a more caricature moment than the two werewolves animated and fucking. Ugh. You know what I mean? Like that was a weird moment. Worst part of the movie for me. Yeah, I was hoping that it'd be some kind of like seamless transition, but I think even the art style, it reminded me of those like older classic cartoons, which I can appreciate, but it didn't feel like a seamless blend. It just felt weird. It stood out in a bad way.

SPEAKER_00 46:06

I think it was like okay as far as the scene goes until it got to the end with like the legitimate animation. I hated that. They did that like twice, I think, and I could not stand that. The like silhouette animation, it was the very end of the sex scene, and also somewhere again at the end of the movie. Can we just say for a moment, we didn't talk about this in visuals, but the teeth in this movie put in work. Okay, the teeth look amazing in this movie. Everybody's fangs. That was you have to say a worst part. Sorry, not the best part. No, it's fine. My worst part is the misogyny in the way they talk to and about women, especially a traumatized woman. It sucks in this movie. And aside from all the weird, dumb, random sex stuff, that part is the worst.

SPEAKER_02 46:49

I do want to back that up because the type of porn that is playing in that theater is absolutely fucking disgusting. And we'll talk more about it later. But on a serious note, Ryan, the worst part of this movie. And I think that's why it like semi-semi-triggered me. And I was like, maybe this is why I'm so unsettled. Not in a good way. But I I do think on a laughable good note, worst part. Cartoon sex in the middle of the movie.

SPEAKER_01 47:16

Fucking weird. I appreciate that. Both of those are really bad parts. But fortunately, I get to pick my favorite part of this movie, which I feel like this whole podcast, I've said really good things about it. Well, my favorite part of the movie is definitely going to have to be the forest. I mean, you don't get enough of the forests in this, but I like how when they are in a forest in this movie, it's just very creepy. It gives me very evil dead vibes and cabin in the woods. Like I just I just love a good forest. And this one does very well. And I love the scenes from a werewolf's perspective in the bushes and in the forest, looking out into our other characters, which to me was a good part. But I still won't ever watch this movie again. Never don't need to see it. And usually I will watch a franchise. I'm like, ah, this one's bad. I'll watch the second one. Nope, I'm good. I do not need to see any of these. I'm totally fine.

SPEAKER_00 48:09

Evidently, there's like eight or something.

SPEAKER_02 48:12

I will absolutely be watching this franchise.

SPEAKER_00 48:16

I won't be, but I wouldn't be opposed. If someone wanted to watch a werewolf movie, though, I'd put on American Werewolf in London. No, you watch Underworld. I wouldn't watch that. I would watch American Werewolf in London. You'd know. Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 48:28

You'd watch that. And then Underworld.

SPEAKER_02 48:30

Probably not. Look, Alexis, stop trying to make Underworld happen. It's like fetch in Mean Girls. It's just not gonna fucking happen for her. Okay, look, so you may not be willing to revisit this franchise, but let me at least send you with a parting gift of a little bit of knowledge from fact or fiction. Are you ready? As ready as we can be. Number one. The silhouette of Bill and Marsha making love as werewolves is obviously a cartoon. We've talked about that. But what's cool is the illustrator for this scene left horror after this movie and went on to work for Disney on both The Little Mermaid, 1989, and Pocahontas, 1995.

SPEAKER_01 49:04

I would say fiction because it was so bad, but I don't know, maybe Disney was impressed that this person's work was in this movie. So fact.

SPEAKER_00 49:13

Well, I I don't even think it really matters, like if Disney was impressed. I th I think there's a good chance this is a fact because animation used to be really hard and it used to suck. So it's actually fiction.

SPEAKER_02 49:24

I completely made that up. Great, thanks. Wow. You're welcome. Number two, the corpse in the armchair scene in Walter's bookstore is actually a holdover prop from the Texas Chainsaw Massacre, 1974. You're smiling too much. This is a fiction.

SPEAKER_00 49:39

Oh, I don't think that, but it better be fiction, or I'm gonna be pissed because I know it smells bad.

SPEAKER_02 49:43

Well, it's a fact. And the art director Robert A. Burns actually worked on the sets for the Texas Chainsaw Massacre, so there was a lot more in there as well. Wow. Number three. Marsha Quist only said 67 words in the entire movie out of five scenes, and more than half of them were spoken in just one scene.

SPEAKER_00 50:03

I believe this to be a fact. She let her eyes do the talking. I I think this is a bad thing that we're doing here because we keep agreeing with each other, but I'm also gonna go fact.

SPEAKER_02 50:11

Okay, you finally guessed right, that is a fact. Uh, she was known and selected more for her seductive demeanor and her intimidating appearance, while also, you know, maintaining an an air of mystery and intrigue. I agree with that. Number four. Dee Wallace and Christopher Stone, so the married couple, Karen and Bill, attribute much of their chemistry in their tense on-shream marriage to the fact that they despis each other in real life. Ooh, fiction. I'm gone fiction. I'm just gonna go the opposite of you. So fact. Well, this is actually fiction because they were engaged in real life when shooting this horror movie. Wow. Something. Finally split you up, and to round things out with number five, the porn loop playing during the sex shop scene was created just for this movie. Oh, it better be a fact. I hope it's a fact. You hope? But what are you gonna say?

SPEAKER_01 50:57

I'm gonna say it's a fact.

SPEAKER_02 50:59

That is a fact. The entire loop was made up of two sequences, and they were actually gonna be included in their entirety as part of a DVD release, but they ended up being banned by the BBFC because it eroticizes sexual assault. And they're like, no go. I think they made a good choice. Well, there you have it, folks. Alexis and Ryan have managed to escape factor fiction, and the Howling from 1981 has managed to escape with only one hack tonight while earning two slashes. Now we've had a lot to talk about here, but it doesn't end here by any means. We want to know what you think. Did you like these practical effects more than an American werewolf in London? Is this your type of werewolf jam? Did you like the story more? You can join in on the conversation by hanging out with us for free over in our Discord.

SPEAKER_01 51:45

You can click the link in our show notes to sign up. And if you enjoyed listening to this episode, consider becoming one of our patrons. Visit patreon.com slash hacker slash to enjoy more of the episode with early access, extended episodes, bonus content, and live shows.

SPEAKER_02 52:02

We'll see you next time, folks. And remember, the Secret Society exists and is living among all of us. Bye.