211: The Descent (2005)

SPEAKER_06 0:04

Whose flight? I don't know her. We're gonna fight these goons.

SPEAKER_02 0:11

Greetings and salutations, and welcome to Hacker Slash. If you're joining us again, welcome back. Hey, there's something down here. If this is your first time listening, welcome to the party. We are a horror movie review podcast dedicated to telling you whether a movie is a hack, a total joke, a waste of time, or a slash. Totally killer, pun intended. We believe horror is for everyone, and as such, we're rating these movies with a perspective we've gained from our varying walks of life and the flavors of fear we fancy most. My name is Chris, I'm your friendly neighborhood slasher enthusiast. This week I'm joined by the gore lover Alexis. I'm an English teacher, not fucking Tomb Raider. The cowardly creeper Ryan, how do you give a lemon and orgasm? And the Screaming Queen Paris.

SPEAKER_06 0:52

You tickled citrus.

SPEAKER_02 0:53

The viewful is spoken, and our patrons have decided it's time to crawl beneath Earth's surface to check out a film originally released in 2005. Before we see what's lurking in the dark, though, we have some follow-up.

SPEAKER_06 1:03

Let's follow up on a movie. I think we're gonna need to crawl beneath the earth's surface to find where this movie is playing, because we recently reviewed the film Oma, which is in theaters allegedly somewhere. A lot of our listeners have had a hard time finding it playing. It seems to be a limited release. Once again, they are doing everything they can to snub this film, but we wanted to know what our listeners thought. Rob actually found it in a theater, and he said, I saw Oma in a theater and I couldn't see a damn thing that was on the screen. It was so dark. I was not a fan. And Chris, I know that you mentioned you had a similar problem. Like there were a lot of shots that like you couldn't even see because of the shitty projection.

SPEAKER_02 1:40

So, yes and no, there are some that I mean, I feel like for the most part, I could see what was happening in the movie, right? There are some things that I think they definitely did, lurking in the shadows. There was a couple moments, especially in the third act when we have Sandra O doing her best to channel someone else. And sure, there are some dark bits, but it was in no way an inhibitor on my experience. You know what I mean? Like I didn't go to that and walk away thinking, wow, that movie was so fucking dark I couldn't see it. You know what I mean? So I think Rob may have had some technical difficulties at that theater, and I think he should be refunded.

SPEAKER_06 2:14

Yeah, it sounds like it was almost prohibitive in his experience, which is upsetting because this movie was something that Chris and I enjoyed. Uh, but if you want to hear more about that, go ahead and listen to that episode. Overall, the poll results are 50-50. So some people liked it, some did not. I definitely think it's worth checking out if you can find it. Uh, it's called Oma with Sandra O. Came out this year. Uh, but we have some other exciting news in addition to the release of that film, and we have two new patrons that have joined our family. Welcome to the Patreon family to Tom and Gabrielle. Gabrielle, we actually have a letter from you. I'm so excited to read this. Gabrielle wrote this. Greetings from Denver, Colorado. I've been binge listening to this show for about a month now, and I absolutely love you all. Such great chemistry, and I like how you all bring all kinds of views and opinions to this show. I've tried a couple other horror podcasts, but this is my favorite. Looking forward to being a patron and listening to all of your future episodes.

SPEAKER_00 3:08

Aw. So sweet. I hope they can discern between Ryan and I's voice. So if not at the beginning, I'm like, this is Alexis talking. We know that we sound different, so I believe in you.

SPEAKER_06 3:20

Honestly, the only people that have had trouble have been men.

SPEAKER_03 3:23

That's true.

SPEAKER_06 3:24

So perhaps it's just a male issue. And that's our follow-up.

SPEAKER_02 3:28

Well, if you're new around here, like Gabrielle and Tom, our patrons get to vote monthly on which movie they'd like us to cover as their pick. This month's voting featured two early 2000s films, a psychological horror film from 2018, and a 2021 film currently streaming on Shudder. The votes were overwhelming this month, and they decided we're going to check out a film that explores what lies beneath the surface of friendship when a group of women go cave diving. This week, after running away with 64% of the overall patron vote, we're talking about the descent.

SPEAKER_03 3:58

So here's what our patron Amber had to say about the descent. The raw emotions of this film and the simple yet creepy atmosphere ties together my love of both horror and independent movies. The characters are realistic and perfectly flawed. The monsters are genuinely scary with spectacular special effects that has the appearance of being minimal effort. The filmmaker's take on dealing with loss, depression, and betrayal unapologetically forces the viewer to feel everything the characters are feeling. I can't say enough about this film, other than that it was so rare for its time. In the 2000s, we saw a lot of horror remakes and torture porn. I appreciate the originality of the film at this time. Hands down, this is one of my favorite horror films.

SPEAKER_02 4:34

That is one hell of a nomination, Amber. Thank you so much for sending this our way. I know that it was also really popular among our other patrons who voted for it.

SPEAKER_03 4:42

Yes. So a couple of other little notes that we had about this from patrons. Jake said, the descent must be next. There are a lot of capital letters here. Such a solid slash. And also one of the best final girl leads in horror cinema. Oh, we'll have to unpack that.

SPEAKER_02 4:55

I agree.

SPEAKER_03 4:56

And then last but not least, Marshall said, Descent is an easy pick. Have always loved this movie. I'm not claustrophobic at all, but this movie made me feel like I was. No word of a lie. Almost had a mild panic attack watching it. Throw in some humanoid creatures, and we've got ourselves a keeper. Can't wait to watch it again leading up to the podcast.

SPEAKER_02 5:12

Ooh, I love that. And I just want to also mention that Matt also says, let us descent into that universal slash, which I think is a bold prediction cotton, but let's see how the film shakes out in its actual ratings. Now, who has seen this one before?

SPEAKER_00 5:26

I have seen this way more than once. Probably like six times.

SPEAKER_03 5:31

I've actually seen The Descent and Whoa. Yeah. And I didn't remember most of it. It was a lot of, oh, I don't remember that happening at all, especially at the very beginning of the movie. But I have seen it at some time. I imagine I saw it pretty soon after it came out, probably within like two or three years after it came out.

SPEAKER_06 5:49

I saw this movie in theaters when I was 14 years old. And like Alexis, I have seen it many times since then. But this is probably the first time I've watched it in over a decade.

SPEAKER_02 5:59

Okay, look. Have I seen a slender blonde woman completely covered in blood with her eyes really wide? Yes. Have I seen that in The Descent? Absolutely not. I've never seen this movie. In fact, I've only been told how lesbian-using this film is, by Paris specifically. And I know that there is some queer coding in here, and we'll unpack that later on in the episode. But going into this, I expected it to be super gay. Uh, so I was really looking forward to that element of it. I was expecting a lot of tension. I was expecting the claustrophobia. I was expecting some really excellent cinematography in terms of how it plays with shadows. I was expecting some really stellar dialogue considering that this is a group of women, and I was really hoping, hey, I hope this passes the Bechtel test. I need to ask a question here.

SPEAKER_03 6:47

Just because it's a group of women doing things, and it if we just automatically call it gay, is that fair? Can women not just do things?

SPEAKER_06 6:55

We're gonna unpack that.

SPEAKER_03 6:56

I want all women, both gay and straight, to go cave diving together. Okay? Maybe not like this. I want them to live as well. That's an important part of it.

SPEAKER_06 7:04

I too think that straight and gay women should cave dive together.

SPEAKER_03 7:07

So, as far as what I expected going into this movie, I for some reason remember not liking it very much. I again couldn't really remember much of what had happened. I just know I had this kind of like sour feeling about it always. And I don't know why, but I was going in here just kind of waiting to see what it is that I didn't like.

SPEAKER_06 7:25

Having not watched this movie in some time, I remembered liking it a whole lot. I remember it being very good and very scary. But that was 2005, so like who knows how much of that holds up. We've kind of been doing a lot of this recently where we revisit movies that some of us have already seen, and we're like, huh, we liked them at the time, but what is it like now? Um, I remember seeing this in theaters with my mom and a couple of my friends. And afterwards we were calling it Lesbians in a Cave, uh, because at the time it gave me very much lesbian energy. I remembered this being a very gay movie, uh, another thing that may or may not have held up over the years. And I remember because it was an all-female cast, it was something that like immediately I latched onto. So I was expecting that to not have changed in the slightest.

SPEAKER_00 8:08

I wasn't sure what to expect while watching this because it seems like every time I have watched this, I kind of forget the movie, but not in a bad way. But it seems like every time I watch it, it's almost a new watch for me. I pick up on things from every viewer that I have. So I wasn't sure what to expect, but I knew I would pick up on some things that I probably wouldn't necessarily had in previous views.

SPEAKER_02 8:31

Okay, so I also have a slight confession. Yesterday, I watched this movie after I got off of work, and I had a real rough time. All right, I had a real rough day. It was probably one of the, I wouldn't say more stressful days, but just more of the like, yo, I'm I'm fucking exhausted mentally, emotionally. And I was texting with Paris, I believe we watched it at a similar time, and I'm like, look, I just hope this is good because I need to pick me up. So going into this, I probably went in with like semi-unfair expectations, but I will say that I was dead tired. I watched this obviously in the dark on the red hue lights. I was cozied up in my new bed, the AC at a cool 69 degrees, and yet I did not fall asleep. And this movie kept my attention every step of the way, which was thrilling. I found myself really captivated by the characters in this movie, the nuances and the relationships and dynamics. I was surprised in many things, disappointed in some things, but I think one of the overall sensations that I felt was just excitement and also a little bit of shock and tragedy.

SPEAKER_00 9:35

Yeah, seeing as I've seen this movie so many times, and I did say it was surprising watching this every time, that it's almost a new watch. To me, it was just entertaining in the fact that you just get so much. You're right, Chris. It's you get some detail, you get some backstory, you get action, you get horror, you get gore, you just get like a good equation of what a good horror movie is about. And that really kept me entertained. And I know that there are caves in this movie. I know it gets pretty tight in this movie, and I knew that was there, but still watching it, and I was watching this on my computer, I didn't put it on the TV, and I was still having that feeling like, oh my gosh, what's gonna happen? Even though I essentially knew it was gonna happen.

SPEAKER_03 10:14

Yeah, I think no matter who you are and what fears you do or don't have, the main feeling you have during this movie is dang, I don't like small spaces. Like, even if you're not afraid of them, even if you're not claustrophobic, this movie stresses you out in regards to spaces and caves, uh, generally small areas, places you don't really want to be, things collapsing. Like this movie has that stress and it doesn't stop, it doesn't really let up, and it just kind of builds on it the whole time. So that's definitely the biggest feeling I have through it. I would not say excited is what I felt the entire time. I just I I I guess the biggest thing for me is just the stress of this experience is brought through the screen a lot in this movie.

SPEAKER_06 10:55

I agree, Ryan. I too was very stressed while watching this, specifically because these tight spaces do give me anxiety. I don't necessarily think I'm a claustrophobic person, but I guess if I'm underground and there's caves involved, I actually am. I don't remember a lot of the characters in this being from the United Kingdom, so for the first like 20 minutes, I was like, wait, did I watch the remake of The Descent and this is the original? So that kind of threw me off at first, but once we got into the the cave of it all, I was very much stressed and just anxious. And in a way that like I was surprised by.

SPEAKER_03 13:04

Yeah, I gotta agree. You you guys keep saying, like, oh, I was so interested in the people and yada yada. And I completely forgot the first thing that happens in this movie, so that was a huge surprise to me. And I think the the grief element and everything that came along with it was interesting, but the direction that it goes, I think is like a cheap shot. There's there's many things about it that I think are just kind of like, meh, why'd we go all this way for this?

SPEAKER_00 13:29

Wow, it's interesting. I can't wait to unpack this and the characters, but I don't agree. I think three characters are put in this, so there is no backstory. So essentially it's up to the dynamics of three. But to me, what was a disappointment, but maybe it's not a disappointment, was the fact that I feel like I've seen these sort of creatures before in other movies, but I don't know if it's because I've seen many after or what sequence these creatures have came into my life. Hello. Are you okay? Do you know what I'm saying? Yeah, like they look familiar and not because of this movie.

SPEAKER_03 14:05

I think I know what you're trying to say, but you made it sound real scary.

SPEAKER_02 14:10

So I think that's part of because how inspired by other creatures this creature design is. So we'll look more into that, obviously, as we get into the second half of the episode. I don't want to spoil like the looks or the way we're introduced to some things, but man, I thought those things were spooky.

SPEAKER_00 14:28

No, they're when they are introduced in certain aspects, the way you see things and the way the caves are designed. I mean, this movie's always scared me, and still to this day. Still scares me. Not as much as it did when I first watched this the first few times, but there's a bunch of stuff that makes this movie scary, not just the creatures, it's the intensity of this movie, it's that claustrophobic nature of this movie too that also makes it scary.

SPEAKER_06 14:52

Definitely, Alexis. I feel the same. There's like three forms of fear in this movie. You have the things that humans are capable of, that thing Chris always talks about. Um, you also have the caves of it all and how scary that can be. And then you have the creatures, and I think each of those pulled its own weight, and I too was still scared by this movie. A lot of the jump scares actually got me. One of them specifically had me say, Oh shit, which I usually don't vocalize when a jump scare gets me. I usually just physically react, but this one got a vocal reaction from me.

SPEAKER_03 15:20

Yeah, exactly zero jump scares in this movie got me. What? Yeah, I don't know. I don't know.

SPEAKER_06 15:27

Were you on your phone?

SPEAKER_03 15:28

No, I wasn't. Okay, good. I was just watching, but I just felt like every single one was like predictable, and a lot of it was a volume-based jump scare. If you know what I mean. Like a lot of it had to do with just like a loud volume all of a sudden. It just didn't it didn't do it for me. I wasn't very scared. The only thing that I think is scary in this movie is the feeling that you get like the claustrophobic feelings. And I mean, those are scary, but I don't know. I would actually say the the monsters kind of didn't do it for me.

SPEAKER_02 15:57

Okay, I wasn't scared. The real tragedy of this, what's gonna be really scary, this obviously Parish just made a joke about the things that I always say. I think how fragile friendships can be is scary, you know, but people are fickle, humans are imperfect, whatever. I I will say though, the monsters did do it for me, not in a scare sense, but in a total satisfaction sense. I love the way these things are filmed throughout this movie. I love the restraint with which they're peppered in in some moments, and it has you questioning, did I see what I just saw? Or uh is this um a thing where I'm imagining like the the structure of like within the cave? And I absolutely love that because I think what it does is cinematically tries to pull you into this trick where are you getting the hallucinations? You know, in earlier in the movie, right, we have one character listing all the things that you could possibly get, and people are like, oh, okay, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Basically just giving the whole plot away. And it makes you pause and wonder, like, am I hallucinating? Obviously, you're not actually this is a cinematic trick, whatever, but I love the intention that that is done with.

SPEAKER_00 17:05

So I think this feels different. It feels different, yeah. I mean, they look familiar, but do they act familiar? Not really, I don't know. But like you said, the way they're filmed, it's just different, and you see different aspects of this movie filmed in certain ways. And I know we'll talk about that in the second half, but it does seem original to me. And I don't know, I can't think of any movies besides The Cave that deal with this sort of like a cave experience. There is as above so below, but to me that's catacombs cave adjacent, but not a cave. Yeah, I was gonna say, are there cave horror movies before this one?

SPEAKER_03 17:41

I I don't know. I think even if there is something, this does still feel original, especially with the combination of the cast and what they do and what happens and then what they encounter. But uh it doesn't like go off the charts of originality for me, but I think we gotta give it some points.

SPEAKER_06 17:54

I don't remember this movie at the time being like anything I had ever seen. I remember thinking, oh, this is one of a kind. I've never seen anything like this. This is so unique. Since then, I think I've seen a couple things that came prior that definitely influenced this a little bit, but I think its approach and its use of emotional themes and dramatic elements in addition to the the general horror vibe, I think that was a really unique approach, and I think it does also deserve some originality points from me as well.

SPEAKER_02 18:22

Okay, so I can agree with you there. I think there are definitely uh several movies that I can pinpoint to think this was directly influential on this film, right? But the the sum of its parts is unique. Now, what I do think is I have a mixed opinion on the ending. Now there are two endings to this film. One that you've seen, I believe, in the UK, and then I think one in this movie released in Canada, they also got the UK ending, but there's also the ending that was released in the US. I've only seen the US ending. I haven't I mean, I I'll drop a link in the show notes to where you can find the alternate ending. However, I am okay with like the actual theatrics of it, but I am just so heartbroken with the character directions, and I don't like that.

SPEAKER_03 19:13

The ending of this movie sucks. It's like such a wet blanket to such a high climax, I think. I don't like the way things get wrapped up, but most importantly, I loathe the final scene of this movie. The final scene of this movie is just like, oh, the cheapest thing. It's almost like they forgot to film an ending and just like threw that in for the last scene. It sucked.

SPEAKER_00 19:37

I was a fan of the ending. I pretty sure I saw the alternate ending, so I might be getting confused. But the one I saw this morning, that ending, to me it had room for interpretation, and it was kind of optimistic, just depending on how you watched the movie and see the success of the ending.

SPEAKER_02 19:56

Then you saw the American version. Congratulations. Because there was nothing optimistic about the other ending.

SPEAKER_00 20:02

Which I've seen, but I was trying not to, because I watched this and I was like, this is not the ending I've seen. So with the movie I've seen tonight with the US ending, to me, it leaves room for interpretation.

SPEAKER_06 20:16

There are definitely some elements that I enjoyed and did not enjoy about this movie's ending, just like everyone has mentioned. Uh, I'm pretty sure we're all gonna agree when it comes to that. There are some really specific choices that characters make where it feels like we built up something great only to like kick it over, like a sand castle at the beach, and it's like, oh, well, why why did we do that? That doesn't make a lot of sense. I think, at least for the US ending that we watched this time around, the end end that we get is kind of very bad. And I was like, oh, why did you do that? It's it was a really strange choice visually, plot-wise, and then I was kind of like, oh, that sucked. It was kind of like they stuck the landing almost and then fell over and then fell over again. It was not great for me.

SPEAKER_02 21:01

Well, the ending may not have been great for us, but let's see how that translates into our ratings. But before we actually score this movie, Alexis, how many people died? We have a total of 15 deaths in this movie, pretty high this week.

SPEAKER_03 21:14

And what about the animal report? We, for like a few weeks now, have had too many dead animals on screen. We got some more this week, so it's not great. It's not too bad, but there's some casualties.

SPEAKER_02 21:25

Well, let's go ahead and get into our ratings then. The descent from 2005 as chosen by our patrons.

SPEAKER_00 21:31

Was it a hacker or a slash? This movie for me is a great recipe for a horror movie. You have this claustrophobic nature, you know, the these eerie scares. Like to me, they were like spine tingling, but also you have this well rounded cast and you get these backstories, which I feel sets the tone, makes you feel something for these characters, and essentially to me, makes you feel throughout the movie, and there's like two layers there's A layer where it's an emotional movie, and then there's also it's a horror movie, it's gore, it's action, it's packed. And I'm gonna be honest with you, this is probably one of my top 10 movies because I love watching this, it's always a new watch for me, and and this movie has just carried throughout time. I mean, I would never expect this to be a 2005 movie. This doesn't come across like that, and I appreciate a movie that'll do that. So this is definitely a slash for me.

SPEAKER_06 22:28

So this is a movie that I too have seen many, many times. It used to be a favorite of mine, but I was like, you know what? It's been a while, let's see how this movie holds up. It did still successfully scare me a couple times, so there's definitely points to be had for that. And being 31 now and out of my teen years, I appreciated this movie in a different way than I think I ever did before. I picked up on a lot of the emotional elements that I hadn't picked up on the first time, or maybe saw but didn't care about because I was 14 years old and I was like, I don't know what it's like to lose somebody in this way. Who cares about that? Show me the monsters, show me the blood. But this time around, I think The Watch, while it was definitely a different experience, was still a good one. Like we've mentioned, and we will continue to unpack in the spoiler section. I was able to appreciate the characters more this time around and also pick up on more that I didn't like about what happened with these characters. It feels like a very great movie, female cast, great relationships, until a specific thing happens and you're like, that doesn't make any sense. This was written by a man very clearly, and that was upsetting. If you don't care about any of that, like it's still kind of fun because it's like, okay, that happens. Uh, it's another gore horror kill moment, so it pads that for sure, but the motivation behind it felt like a flop to me. Uh, but overall, this is still getting a slash from me.

SPEAKER_03 23:46

Well, Paris, you bring up some good points. I think you are totally right. This movie is a good time, even if some of the things that go on are a little bit goofy. I don't agree with you guys about these characters. I don't think these feel like authentic characters. Like, as a woman, I don't feel like I can relate to these people. I feel like these are versions of what men think women do when they're on a trip together and like ways that men think they talk to each other. Say it one more time for the people in the back. Yeah, this is not this is not what people are like. This is not what women are like. Like, more than just that, more than just the authenticity of the characters that I had beef with. It's like the dialogue that they have and the way that they speak to each other feels like a caricature of people talking. And I know it's a movie. I'm not expecting like, you know, people to not be able to speak like me and sound dumb and like whatever random things people say. Of course, I don't want to watch a movie with a realistic conversation, but this one just feels so like planted. Like someone's like, hey, here's the list of things that could go wrong, and they're like, oh, we don't care. Like that's not realistic. And this whole setup of why they're there and how they get there and everything, it's all just a bit weird to me. I think the movie is a good time. I think once we get into the cave and like things that happen, I think like, I mean, we have a pool of blood. No one can complain about a pool of blood, okay? But this movie's not uh good for me. I don't think it's a terrible movie, but I don't like it. Like I don't enjoy it. I didn't enjoy being there. I didn't want to be a part of the group, I didn't want to go do the thing. I like I was okay if they all died. You know, like it's just kind of uh so this is a hack for me. And I still didn't quite figure out why I didn't like it the first time, but I still have like a uh I don't really like it this time.

SPEAKER_02 25:30

Okay, so obviously there are some lofty expectations that I walked into this movie with mainly because of how excited I was from Paris's excitement of uh how uh inherently queer he found this film to be. I was really, really excited for that. And then I didn't get that, and that was disappointing. And then they go a direction with the characters that was even more disappointing, and I'm gonna be real with you, it's extremely hard to walk backwards from that line because this movie was riding such a fucking high for me. There's a lot that I love in terms of the effects. There's even some stuff that I love in terms of the gore, but Ryan, you spoke so eloquently about the caricatures of these characters. I do have a line in my notes that says, I'm always searching for the next big high. Okay, telling me the character's description themselves. Like, what the fuck is that? It was unnecessary exposition to say, oh hi, hello, I'm this person, and this is what you can see me as. Instead of allowing myself to reveal these things to you over time, I don't think I needed some things to be said in this movie. I especially didn't need the mental gymnastics of some of the dynamics and the underpinnings of the history of some of these friends. I especially didn't need the point at which this all falls apart. I'll get there though in the second half of this episode, but I will say, at the end of it all, this movie kept me engaged from beginning to end. I feel like one character in particular deserves better. And these moments of shock in the beginning, the moments of shock as we started getting towards the climax of the film kept coming and kept me interested, and therefore it's a slash. Now, the descent from 2005, as chosen by our patrons, has earned three slashes and one hack. Now, if you're in the US, this movie is available to stream on Peacock. So check it out. Join us in the second half so we can break down these scores together. We'll see you in a bit.

SPEAKER_05 27:30

You want a spelunk, but you've got no room left in your trunk. You just need so many tools to stay prepared for the myriad of horrors you might face down beneath things crust. It takes a lot of spunk to dive deep in the trunk. Stress no more the spelunk in the trunk. Spelunk in the trunk is all the one thing to dive in a tongue, tool, and everything you can possibly need when you're deep in the room. Spelunk in the trunk is everything, a flashlight, a flag, a thermal imaging system to detect one, a caraper, a rope, a sandwich, a water filtration system, spring action splits, an ice boat, a tie-to-go pin. And there's games on it for when you completely give up on escaping and just want to vibe until you die. Leave behind that other junk and just bring along spell up in the trunk.

SPEAKER_02 28:21

Welcome back, folks. You're now entering the spoiler zone for the descent, which is earned three slashes and one hack. And we have a lot to get to here, but before we get into the specifics of our ratings, we do have some gore to get to. So, Alexis, what's the gore score for this movie?

SPEAKER_00 28:36

I wouldn't say there's some, I'd say it's quite a bloodbath in this. So I put high and shit, that's a lot of gore because it's different gore than we've seen, but there's blood everywhere in this movie, so it's getting a high ranking for sure. A literal and figurative bloodbath, yes.

SPEAKER_03 28:52

Yeah, in all the cracks and crevices. Disgusting.

SPEAKER_00 28:56

Yeah. I mean, what I can truly appreciate about this movie is within three minutes, you get a kill. You get two, essentially. And they're so tragic.

SPEAKER_02 29:06

That was some final destination shit. I didn't realize that we were watching Final Destination 10.

SPEAKER_06 29:11

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_03 29:13

It really wasn't because they just stopped looking at the road. And I don't want to like spoil anything for anyone, but like when you stop looking at the road and you're driving on a two-lane street, sometimes you might die. Like, don't look at each other.

SPEAKER_06 29:27

The setup wasn't final destination, but the end result was final destination. Yes, it lacked all of the buildup of final destination for sure, though, Ryan.

SPEAKER_03 29:34

All of the mystery was gone because they just looked into each other's eyes lovingly, going around a turn at probably 70 miles per hour.

SPEAKER_00 29:41

Yeah, there's that. And then I feel like you know, you get this little break, which is fine because after that, you're getting total carnage when these creepy crawlers are around. Like it is crazy. And to me, the most traumatic thing was seeing Holly's bones stick out of her leg. I was like, wow, they are showing this. I didn't think I'd have to see all the details, but I did. Yes, that one was very intense and like mostly showing them squeezing it back in.

SPEAKER_01 30:10

Oh yeah.

SPEAKER_00 30:11

There's just so much blood in this movie. I mean, I don't know, this might be weird to say, but I love to be an actor in this because I bet being Sarah in this like bloodbath would be just like kind of cool.

SPEAKER_06 30:22

Oh, very cool. And like some of the most iconic visuals from this movie are that bloodbath specifically.

SPEAKER_00 30:27

Exactly. And I love, like I said, it gives Carrie vibes completely. Favorite scene that's gory is definitely gonna have to be when those crawlers they all come in to the like place where they, you know, have a little party and they just start ripping up everyone, and it's just blood everywhere. The dining hall, the din the mess hall. Is that what it's called? The mess hall.

SPEAKER_06 30:46

Even better.

SPEAKER_00 30:47

Ew.

SPEAKER_02 30:49

Yeah, so that actually reminded me of so much. Actually, and I just gotta say this, not necessarily in terms of the kills, but the dynamics and the level of combat and the darkness of this. I have played in many a DD campaign with this exact setting and this exact circumstance. I'm just saying it. I got a lot of DD energy from this. And the idea of having to fight for your life in a a cave full of stalagmites and stalagtites with all the bones and the whatnots, that feels like dungeons and dragons. I'll take your word for it.

SPEAKER_00 31:23

I say I will take your word. But I also love that part where they are ripping these innocent people apart. But then also my favorite is vice versa. So when we have these awesome women going in and killing these crawlers, and they're just fingers in the eyes and splurting out, and I was just like, to me, there was just a lot of blood spurting in this, and I was a complete fan. I was just I just loved all the blood. Didn't take away from the movie, I will say. Like, what do you think is gonna be down there? Yeah, no, we needed that gore for sure. Yeah, you needed it. So with 15 deaths in this, I'm hoping none of us will repeat, but it's fine if we do. Um, I just want to know y'all's favorite deaths in this movie. So I have two favorites.

SPEAKER_06 32:08

You don't get two.

SPEAKER_00 32:09

I do get two.

SPEAKER_06 32:10

Boo, you're gonna take mine.

SPEAKER_03 32:12

She can get as many as she wants. My favorite kill is Paul because we didn't need him here. And it was shocking. I forgot it existed. They could have really just told me that she just lost her husband and her kid. Instead, we got them pipes through the head, and I thought it was lovely because I was so unprepared. I I couldn't have told you in a million years that that happened at the beginning of this movie. No matter how much money you had, I would have never remembered that. So I love that kill. The little tuft of blonde hair just shooting right up. Ooh, it was so good. My favorite in the cave kill, if we can say that, is Rebecca getting her stomach eaten out. I thought that one was so good because she's getting pulled back. And I think at that point we kind of knew she wasn't gonna make it, at least I felt like I did. So when they just started eating her guts out of her stomach, I I thought it was disgusting, and I enjoyed that one because it was different. It didn't involve an ice pick or a climbing pick. I like that one a lot.

SPEAKER_02 33:06

Okay, I'm gonna go for the not the real time that Beth actually dies, but when she gets the pick through the neck. Because wow, ooh, what a shocking moment, man, because I was all high on Juno. You know, she's in there, she's kicking ass, taking names, and she's just following her instincts because of course, why wouldn't, if there's no other fucking thing around, Beth, why wouldn't you say something to Juno? You got so fucking close to her, and Juno just whips around about to defend herself, and then all of a sudden it's it's Beth. I absolutely loved the shock and pain of that moment, and I loved Juno's very realistic reaction, like, oh my god, like you can see her eyes tearing up, she's in shock, what have I done? She's also moving around with the ramifications of like the situation they're in. In fight or flight mode, Juno went straight fight. She didn't flee. She stayed and she tried to help Holly, and she wanted to defend and she wanted to protect. And in that moment of adrenaline, she accidentally killed one of her friends. That was like the emotional fucking punch of this movie.

SPEAKER_00 34:11

The dynamics of that, I just don't know how. I guess it's because it's a pickaxe where you swing and it goes like into someone's neck. Like it was just reverse somehow.

SPEAKER_06 34:20

It's like a little hook.

SPEAKER_00 34:21

Yeah. It was neat. It was interesting to see that.

SPEAKER_02 34:24

Yeah, and I didn't could it be clear, I didn't want Beth to die. But that's what made that moment even better. Like, holy shit, what a shock.

SPEAKER_06 34:33

I totally agree, Chris. That is also my favorite kill. It is the one thing I remember the most from this movie is that Juno accidentally kills one of her friends in like a shocking turn of events. And I think you really described it so well. Like the actress really conveyed all of those complex emotions that go through one's head when you accidentally stab your friend with an ice pick through the neck in a cave full of demons. It sold to me the shift in the dynamics, and I thought that that was such a super interesting thing to happen in the cave. I think what they did with that situation was dumb and floppy, but we'll talk about that later. And one thing I never noticed before is that when Holly has her leg broken and they need to use a splint, somebody literally says, Juno, use one of the ice axes. And I said, Oh, she's gonna use one of the ice axes. You don't you worry. And I thought that level of foreshadowing was really cool.

SPEAKER_00 35:21

I appreciate that. I appreciate that. So my favorite is going to be Sam. You know, they have this buildup of her trying to get across an escape. And you know, she's trying to hold on, she doesn't have the upper body strength that you know some of the other characters had. So unfortunately, you know, I I feel already bad for her hanging there. And then you see this crawler come, and I just love the camera work because it's from almost underneath inside, and from what angle, I'm not even sure that I'm watching this, but it was so disorientating that it just made me topsy turvy. So I wasn't even sure who was about to kill who because she had a knife in her hand. So I just love that kind of cat and mouse, but really just them staring at each other for a second, then unfortunately she gets her like throat just slit.

SPEAKER_02 36:10

Yeah, so man, Sam, I was so sad to see go because I loved the dynamic between Sam and Rebecca. They had this like older sister, little sister thing going on, but it was like uh, hey, I know that you're just looking out for me, and I know you're gonna try to baby me, and I love you, but I am setting boundaries. And I I like the reality of their dynamic. Of course, they would be protecting into protecting each other. And of course, they don't really, you know, Juno is obviously screaming looking for Sarah, and you know, thinking like, oh, okay, well, she's going to bring all those things on top of her head, and then Sam's like, oh, as long as it's her head and not mine. I get it. It's a human thing. It's it's like the reality of it. They probably weren't that close to Juno to begin with. So to see her die, and the way that she did, trying to fight that thing off, has the like has the knife, trying to stab him, it just uh, what an emotional fucking thing for Rebecca to have to see, and then to just die moments later.

SPEAKER_00 37:07

No, I totally agree. And Chris, you mentioned this part where Juno is like literally just going into fight. And I think what I appreciate is when she's fighting these crawlers, especially in one scene, you're not you don't even know what's going on per se. It's just a lot of wrestling, and I feel like a lot of people would give up in that sense. But there's just something about this environment of the cave that the way everything was filmed, one, it already felt claustrophobic, but the way this design of the set is created essentially. I don't know where I'm at or at what point or what I'm looking at, and the way things are lit with the red flares, with the glow sticks, and using a camera to see certain things. Like to me, that had to be my favorite visual is just like the way light is created in this cave.

SPEAKER_02 37:58

Oh, okay. So my favorite visual is the way they play with that light and the way that we film the crawlers before we actually see the crawlers. I love that for a long time we only really see them in silhouette and spooky little poses, like they're uh posing for album artwork, you know what I mean? They look like they'd be excellent dancers. I'll say that.

SPEAKER_00 38:19

Yeah, they definitely got the cat cow going from yoga.

SPEAKER_03 38:23

That's for sure. Honestly, as far as the monsters go, I think we see like a little bit too much of them because they were so much creepier at first. And I I understand they're not really supposed to be like a supernatural kind of thing. You know, they are a monster. So I understand why we see so much, but I just liked when they were creepy silhouettes and filmed through the camera in like night mode and stuff. For me, I have a couple of favorite visuals. One is the dynamic that we have toward the end where we have Juno lit by the red flares, and then we have the other two girls lit by the neon, and it's like a totally different feeling because it's got that green hue, very different things happening, and they're kind of like realizing how what they need to do. It was very interesting just having those two things going back and forth towards the end. And the other thing that I really enjoyed is the practical effects, specifically around the final fight scene where they pretty much beat all the crawlers, and we get a lot of shots of like picks to the head and stuff like that, and blood spurting out. There's a lot of specific gore stabbing, killing shots that are like straightforward, and we and you can kind of see the effects and all their glory in those moments. I really enjoyed that.

SPEAKER_06 39:30

Ryan, I totally agree about the creatures being a little bit too visible towards the end. In my notes, I wrote, I love that we're not seeing too much of these creatures, and then later in my notes I wrote, Oh, we saw too much of them. I saw like a couple like times you could see like the bottoms of their feet, and I was like, that is a human foot, that is a regular foot. And also their butts.

SPEAKER_03 39:47

Whole time I was like, are there gonna be dongs?

SPEAKER_06 39:49

Yeah, because they were definitely big booty cheeks.

SPEAKER_03 39:52

I know. We saw a whole butt.

SPEAKER_06 39:53

But my favorite visual element, I also have two. One, not sure how no one's mentioned it, but Sarah emerging from the bloodbath, giving full carry, and just like slow-mo, just like dripping blood, being really reborn as uh a demon of the night. And then, oh actually, no, now I have three because later when she escapes the cave and she's like fully birthed from the earth's vagina in that moment, and you can like see her like it's really like a rebirth for her in a couple different ways, uh, visually and then obviously metaphorically.

SPEAKER_00 40:23

How terrified were you, Paris, when the crawler was like on top of her? I'm like, I know damn well there's no way I could ever stay that still. Like, I put my hands out and they're always shaking. So, like, there's no way I would be able to keep my composure if some one of them was like sitting on top of me.

SPEAKER_06 40:41

Yeah, just stepping on her face, not realizing this doesn't feel like a rock like I normally step on.

SPEAKER_00 40:46

Exactly.

SPEAKER_06 40:47

But my number one favorite visual element is when we have Sarah finally seeing the exit and then crawling up that slope of just skeletal bones and remains, because it's such a beautifully composed shot. Everything is completely dark, and you just have this like thin line across the frame where you just see skulls and light, and then her ascending to wrap up the movie, The Descent. And specifically, I never realized, but that must have been ingrained in my brain, that visual, because I think I've shared this with y'all before. One time when I was tripping on LSD on the 4th of July, I was climbing up like a bunch of rocks, and I looked around and I was like, wait, these are all skulls, and I just started hallucinating that I was doing that exact same thing. So when I saw it happening in this movie, I was like, Oh, holy shit, I've literally lived this experience before. So I thought it was really strange how my mind kind of latched onto that and was like, I'm gonna use this later.

SPEAKER_03 41:35

We'd love a good bone throne. Jesus Christ. Can I complain about a visual? Yeah. This movie is too dark. There's too many parts where there's not enough things lit up, and all we have are scenes of like basically headlamps. And I know that it's in I understand we're in a cave. I know a lot of it needs to be dark, but I was really only happy visually when I had something lighting up the environment, like a flare or something. I'm not saying it can't be used at all. I'm just saying it's a bit tough to watch this, like it's dark.

SPEAKER_00 42:05

I could see that. I also liked it when it was dark because it felt like things were essentially floating. Like when Sarah, I think, has the camera and you can only really see the camera and the crawler's face. And I thought I just thought that was cool because it looked like she wasn't even holding it, it just looked like a camera floating in midair.

SPEAKER_02 42:23

Okay, superficial, worse visuals, pencil thin eyebrows, and the snot noses. The crying made for a lot of snotty noses wasn't a fan. But I love the use of the flares and the flashlights uh to light this entire scene. There's this moment when Holly thinks she sees daylight and she's just fucking running like an asshole through this cave because of course she's like the athletic one, right? She's just so cocky and sure of like, okay, we can get out of here. My absolute favorite scene, and I know this is like really, really early on. I love the reckoning of the moment that Holly becomes dead weight because she can't fucking contribute, she can barely move. It is the suddenness of, oh shit, she's fallen, her bone is sticking out of her motherfucking leg, and now shit was already real, but it got even more real just now. And this is when all the panic sets in and this like internal stress before they even really realize what's about to happen next. Before the crawlers are like really wreaking their havoc on anything. And I love the peak of the human stress before we even add in the complexity of the monsters.

SPEAKER_06 43:37

I love that too, Chris, because it's absolutely Holly's fault. She has nobody to blame but her reckless ass self. Uh, it reminded me of like pretty much every Ares I've ever met. They're very much let's act now and then think about the consequences later. But it's like, well, what if your actions lead to consequences that you can't quite reckon with? What happens then?

SPEAKER_00 43:55

I essentially have two favorite scenes. Obviously, I love this scene of the king. The first favorite scene is when they're going through that first tiny passage and everyone's getting through, and then Sarah is caught. And I can only imagine feeling like that and getting claustrophobic and freaking out and then feeling like you couldn't go through. And during that time, too, as the women are going through, I love how there's no sound at all. Just the sound of them going through. There's no background soundtrack or any sort of added sounds to that part of the film, which to me just built up the intensity. Is there any in any of this? I guess there's probably some background noise at some point. Definitely some. Okay. But this is where I specifically noticed it.

SPEAKER_03 44:39

That's a great point.

SPEAKER_00 44:40

Yeah. But also what really kept me tense was another scene. And it was when Sam and Beth split up from the group, and they have this crawler that's on, you know, the ceiling following them. And at that point, I was like, man, these motherfuckers are smarter than I gave like gave them credit for. Because he's essentially not making a sound and following them. And then, you know, the tables are turned and they're hiding from him. Cause I maybe they realized it, I have no clue. But the tables are turned, and I love that just the dynamics of that sort of scene and seeing all of that, and just seeing this, you know, crawler in the background and barely realizing it, just as the characters are.

SPEAKER_03 45:22

Honestly, all those scenes where the crawlers are just like popping up, or when they show like a walkway, basically, and it's darkness, and then all of a sudden you see them start to like come in and just crowd around. Oh, they're disgusting and creepy.

SPEAKER_00 45:35

I don't like it. Yeah, their eyes. That's what my eyes look like if I wore my contacts two nights in a row. Like they're just sticky like that. I don't know. These they were sticky animals, they just look sticky.

SPEAKER_03 45:48

When he like cough spit whatever while he was like sitting on top of her head, basically, like squatted over her head, like when she was just laying on the rock. I was I could have thrown up. It was disgusting. Like whatever came out of him was so gross and just like plopped on her head.

SPEAKER_00 46:04

Yeah, if I was acting in this movie, I don't know if I would not be terrified.

SPEAKER_03 46:09

I'd love to see what the like the monsters look like just walking around set in their costume and their leotard, full upright position, like nod crowds down.

SPEAKER_00 46:17

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 46:18

My favorite scene is definitely related to one of our kills, and it's the buildup that we have of Juno just like being a boss bitch in that cave, like Chris was saying earlier. She had two choices, fight or flight, and she said, Who's flight? I don't know her. We're gonna fight these goons. And she killed so many of them. She did such a good job. And I was like, I'll watch this woman do literally anything. She was incredible. And then just on that high of adrenaline, just accidentally, oh shit, killing one of your friends, and then her kind of like reconciling, like, hey, this bitch is basically dead. I don't see the value of bringing her along or maybe communicating this with the rest of the team. I'm kind of just gonna leave her because it's a complicated decision, but I can kind of see where she was coming from. At that point, Beth is absolutely dead weight, there's really no coming back for her. But I don't know, maybe mention it to somebody. But it's so hard. It's so complicated. It's such a powerful moment in this movie, and that's why it's my favorite scene.

SPEAKER_02 47:13

It is, and I'm sure we'll say even more about it. But here's the thing I felt like Beth was already kind of dead. You know what I mean? So I think in her mind, it was less of the I don't see value in this moment, and more like you're about to have your last breath and I have to get out of here. I didn't see it more as like the logical chess.

SPEAKER_06 47:33

I mean value in bringing her along or like trying to like save her. You know what I mean? Like Holly.

SPEAKER_02 47:38

Yeah, no, I mean you're you're not wrong. I just I think I I saw it as more of like an emotional shock versus a logistical, I'm gonna sit here and assess the value of this situation.

SPEAKER_04 47:49

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 47:50

I think for sure she has that capability. I just think it was absent in that moment.

SPEAKER_04 47:54

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 47:54

And then noticing everything else that she says, she's still grappling with the shock of it, right? So she's not lying. Beth didn't make it. And think about all the things that she also had trouble saying throughout their friendship already. She's clearly someone who has difficulty owning that, even if inside she like wants to come clean about it. I think it was perfectly aligned with that. And I have so much more to say about Junior, so I'll stop right there. But I I get that that fucking power and that emotion. Ooh, so good. That's a great favorite scene.

SPEAKER_03 48:26

My thing is Beth literally said, Please don't leave me. She whispered it. She uh what the what does that matter? What does volume matter?

SPEAKER_06 48:35

And like, what are you gonna do?

SPEAKER_03 48:36

Now, Charlie said, could you like could you just not? You know, like could you please not leave me? At least just kill her, like fully, honestly.

SPEAKER_06 48:44

I think she thought she did.

SPEAKER_03 48:45

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 48:46

I assumed she was done for.

SPEAKER_03 48:48

But she was when she walked away, she was talking, and that's that's where my beef lies. Like, either complete what you started or take responsibility, fix it. Wow, bring her along.

SPEAKER_00 48:58

What are you gonna do to me when we're down there?

SPEAKER_03 49:00

Not kill you. But if I do mostly kill you, I am gonna kill you.

SPEAKER_00 49:04

Like, please kill me all the way. Like, make sure that first one is good. Is that what I'm saying? So there doesn't need to be any more after.

SPEAKER_03 49:10

I'm not gonna leave you there.

SPEAKER_00 49:11

Break my neck. Like, yeah. I feel we have a good friendship here.

SPEAKER_03 49:15

Right. We're all on the same page. If anybody's dying, I will finish the deed because you deserve better than being eaten by crawlers.

SPEAKER_06 49:22

At least feeling being eaten by crawlers.

SPEAKER_03 49:24

Exactly. I want you to feel that. Feel my love.

SPEAKER_06 49:26

Bash your head in with a rock.

SPEAKER_03 49:28

I would have done it more gently, also.

SPEAKER_02 49:30

Okay, here's the thing. Juno deserved better. Her up and says, Come. She, if she were to escape this cave unscathed, is super scathed because she's emotionally fucking scarred. Not only by the guilt, she has clearly been caring this entire time about her affair with this guy. It's too simple to look at the math and say, Juno had an affair. She's bad. Fuck Juno. She obviously lost someone that she cared about. She had this affair, and I think a much younger Chris, especially like in 2005, I definitely would have been like, yes, no, there this is a right or wrong situation, and Juno's on the wrong side of it. But people are imperfect, people fall in and out of love, and people make fucking mistakes. A hundred percent. That's there. However, Juno having that affair and doing something really fucking dumb, like taking them into this fucking exploration thing, you just want to think, okay, eventually she probably would have told Sarah something. Eventually. But definitely not when Sarah's like in this fucking moment of grief. It's not gonna change anything except push Sarah down even further. Now, where I struggle is in a couple different places. One, Beth knew about this affair the entire fucking time, but she decides to say it with her dying breath. I think she can also see, based on Juno's reaction, that Juno didn't mean to kill her. Like, yes, Juno did this to you, but you also snuck up on Juno after you saw her fucking fight so many things. Like, what the fuck? So it was a little bit shady and it was a little bit disappointing that she would then choose, uh obviously give her this pendant and then just say, Don't trust anyone but yourself. Juno did this, this is all Juno's fault. 100%, yes, she's the reason they're in the cave. But then the other element of this is Sarah in the emotional state that she's in, and with the betrayal she feels, with the grief that is still so real and so present, she doesn't really give Juno much of an opportunity to clarify things. And in that heat of the moment, after Juno, who has, mind you, fought to find Sarah, who wanted to protect Sarah, decides to just put a pickaxe in her fucking leg and run off. I don't like it.

SPEAKER_06 51:47

It didn't make sense.

SPEAKER_03 51:49

Okay. Hear me out though. Let me let me add an additional detail to like the Juno saga here. It's not just she is cheating, whatever. Obviously, it's a very complex thing when you're best, like very close friends with the woman, and then there's a husband, whatever. Here's the other thing though. She's wearing this necklace that clearly still ties her to him, and she clearly has a lot of investment in it, and she's wearing it the whole movie. She's rubbing it. She's not like, oh, I made a mistake, and I'm not able to tell her about this because she's grieving, and I'll tell her later that I was sleeping with her husband. She's like still in, like, I like I feel like she didn't feel that bad about it. Like, she didn't give a lot of remorse energy. She didn't have a lot of, wow, I did the wrong thing because she's still like has a lot of like care about this thing that represents him. So I don't, I'm not saying Juno's an like a complete trash person or whatever, but there's certainly no justice for Juno propaganda happening in my mind. Because she brought us here, like she she did things wrong. She did accidentally stab somebody in the neck, but she also didn't do anything to try to make it right. She just dipped out. Like, I don't know, we're not all perfect, but I'm not gonna sit here and try to defend this lady.

SPEAKER_02 53:03

So I don't know. She obviously, so Paul dies, Jessica dies, Juno's in the hospital. You see the emotional shock, you don't quite understand why yet, right? There are some gazes, there's obviously the possibility that it could have been for any number of things. Wow, I don't have a man in my life. That's the energy that that kind of moment gave me, which is really, really, really weird. But the fact of the matter is, yes, there is a complexity. She did lose someone that she loved. And we don't know the whole history of Sarah and Paul's marriage. Perceivably, it's probably obviously to Sarah in great shape. She had no idea anything was going on. But that look that Paul had in his eye sensed that that thing was over for a really long time.

SPEAKER_03 53:48

The day that Chris is defending a woman sleeping with someone's husband is really just like thr throwing me.

SPEAKER_06 53:54

That's not what Chris is defending here.

SPEAKER_02 53:56

That's not what I'm defending, and I know Paris is gonna back me up on this. The fact of the matter is that Juno made fucking mistakes, but Juno did not deserve to have a pickaxe to the leg and abandon in a fucking cave when she fought to find her best friend and still save her.

SPEAKER_00 54:10

You know Chris doesn't like revenge. Oh, I love revenge. What? I always talk about how, well, I guess sexual revenge, but uh not that kind of revenge. Yeah, no, no, no. Like when we did teeth and ever yeah, I'm just going back to that sort of kind of revenge, but I just think the whole situation is because of this woman.

SPEAKER_03 54:30

Like, there's just so many things that, like, I think it's a reasonable response to be like, yeah, I'm gonna leave you here. I think it's reasonable. I'm not saying it's right, but I think it's reasonable, perfectly reasonable.

SPEAKER_06 54:39

I think it is the opposite of reasonable, and it is a disservice to Sarah as a character because it says, hey, this woman who has shown so much strength, so much quality decision making, is going to let something petty and not that big of a deal in the grand scheme of we are trapped in a cave with demons get in in the way of her survival. She didn't know that she was about to find the exit. She needed Juno to survive, and it would have made so much more sense from a rational human being perspective to be like, listen, I fucking hate you so much right now. I know what you did. I'm so sick, but we need to get the fuck out of here, and then I will figure out what I'm gonna do with this. But it felt very much like a man was like, yeah, she's jealous that Juno slept with her husband and she's gonna just take her out at the legs because that's what girls do when they find out that somebody cheated on them. And I was just like, no, no, no, no, no. Any woman, any person in their right mind, or even in their survival mind, would be like, I need this one other person that's still alive down here with me to help me get the fuck out.

SPEAKER_02 55:35

Yeah, okay, that's the thing for me. Sarah is so intelligent, and yet her action here and the way this whole thing is written together is very petty and reductive. And that doesn't feel organic. That doesn't feel real. The the anger feels real, but there is a look that Sarah gives Juno when she asks, Did you wash or die? And Juno's staring at her. Sarah looks like it's taking everything within her to look at this woman that she knows has slept with her husband, her husband who's now dead, her husband that she didn't maybe potentially like let's assume that she didn't know anything was going on, this whole shock that she's grappling with, and I'm like, Wow, holy shit, Sarah, who are you? And then the next second when she just fucking takes a pickaxe there, just throws it all away. It's just like what? What? Because that's the problem for me. Like, it makes this fight, this feud all about a man.

SPEAKER_03 56:27

Which is the true downfall of the characters in this movie. It doesn't really matter about Paul or Juno or any of them, really. The fact is, everything in this movie being based around an affair and a man in a relationship who died and did not even speak, maybe in this movie, or spoke a few words. Why is that the main focus of this movie? Why is that the plot point? Why is that the storyline? That's what makes this movie trash. That's it.

SPEAKER_06 56:53

And now he said it. It's also just like so petty for Beth's dying breath to be like, don't trust Juno. She cheated on you. I knew all this time. Kill me, please. I was like, meanwhile, no.

SPEAKER_02 57:04

Meanwhile, Beth was keeping the secret. Like, yeah, it was trash. Beth, it doesn't make you better. Alright, I'm not Team Beth in this fucking situation. I am team Beth shouldn't have snuck up on someone, and Death and Beth should have been put out of her misery far long ago, perhaps by Juno, sure. But the fact of the matter is she makes it out to be like this heroic feat. Like, with my dying breath, I'm going to tell you the truth that I just learned. No, you fucking knew it. You knew it.

SPEAKER_03 57:32

That doesn't make you a good friend, Beth.

SPEAKER_06 57:34

She stirred up drama with her dying breath.

SPEAKER_03 57:36

So otherwise, as far as characters go, I've already kind of mentioned this, but I'm just gonna say my piece here again. These are caricatures of humans, and the things that they say in this dialogue are not normal things that people say to each other. Friends don't talk to each other like this. They're really weird the way they just tell each other about their personality like they've never met because it's the beginning of the movie and they're telling us. Also, too many people for me to keep track of. I'm just gonna say it. Maybe I'm an idiot. I don't know. Maybe my brain doesn't work hard enough. But like when you put six people in a scenario like this, it just gets like a little chaotic. There was points where I was like, I don't know who's who. The only reason I knew who some people were is because they were following giggling children sounds. Like, I know that's a me thing, but it was a lot. And the characters were strong caricatures of people, and I did not care for it.

SPEAKER_02 58:22

Okay, but here's another crime that these characters fucking had that I think we need to address. Could you imagine taking a group photo? And the very last thing you all said as a group for a photo was the word sausage. I know. Why would they say sausage? Why would they say sausage? There could have been any number of things. Like, sausage doesn't even make a good fucking like smile with your mouth. Like I get cheese.

SPEAKER_06 58:47

Yeah, it's like sausage, sausage. No.

SPEAKER_03 58:51

It's like something that a man would think is funny for women to say when they take a picture together. That's exactly what it is. Everything that happened in that cabin, like when they're just kind of catching up, it's it's all just goofy.

SPEAKER_06 59:04

I would like to take this opportunity to apologize to Chris Rojas for painting this movie to be much more lesbianic than it really is. In my defense, I remembered it being very gay, but I think it was just the fact that a group of female friends were going cave diving that just the premise on paper sounds gay. I do think that's true. But rewatching this again, I was like, oh, this isn't gay at all. And even the more butch one isn't even gay. And I was really disappointed that it wasn't as gay as I remembered. I think this movie should have been more gay. I think had it been gay, none of the petty shit would have happened at the end. None of that would have happened. In fact, there was a moment where Sarah and Juno, like Juno sees Sarah. Sarah had just seen like one of the cave dwellers. Juno's like, Are you okay? And Sarah turns back at her, and their faces are so close that their little headlights on their little cave hats, they like touch and kiss. And I was like, come on, do something gay. And that was the gayest thing we got, and that was a shame. That might be the worst part of this movie.

SPEAKER_03 59:58

I actually think if this was written by the same people, it would just be a fight about an inter-group relationship rather than about a man that was external. I just think it would have been an argument about some two of the girls sleeping together, honestly. There you go.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:12

It would be some guy heard about the L word and thought, yeah, yeah, yeah. I can write that too.

SPEAKER_04 1:00:17

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:17

That's exactly what it would have been. But remake this fucking movie. Please, remake this movie. I don't even care. Make whatever group dynamic you want to make. Give me some fucking representation though, and don't make the whole fucking crux of the story be two women fighting about a man. That's fucking bullshit. You've squandered the whole movie. That is the worst part of this movie. And oh my gosh, like, how fucking beautiful could this story have been if you remove the layer of Paul and even just had a mistrust between Sarah and Juno finding their way back to each other because Juno couldn't cope with a discomfort of Sarah's grief. You know what I mean? Like that could have been something, but instead we had to add the element of like these two girls, they love the same guy, and wow, he's just so desirable, so sad he's dead.

SPEAKER_03 1:01:08

And it is just a fucking waste.

SPEAKER_06 1:01:11

Hey Ryan, what's your best part?

SPEAKER_03 1:01:13

You know, my best part of this movie is the general metaphor of it all, okay? The descent into a literal cave, as well as the descent into madness, into chaos, into hallucinations, which is something that can happen when you're down there, as was uh yelled at us in the beginning of the movie, and the questioning of reality for me that is something I thought about a lot during this movie. Like, man, the descent is such a good name for this, and and that's what I enjoyed the most.

SPEAKER_02 1:01:43

The descent into madness. Did you think the poster was also the best part of this when it's all women just making up a skull?

SPEAKER_03 1:01:50

Yeah, I I actually didn't love it. It felt a little a little cheesy, but it was okay. Wow, I'm so sad.

SPEAKER_06 1:01:56

Wasn't that like a Salvador Dolly painting?

SPEAKER_01 1:01:58

Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:58

So I guess I have to do a worst part, which honestly is kind of hard. Um, I know everyone talked about the characters, and while I feel where you guys are coming from and I see where it's at, I kind of like that dynamic that's brought up in the first half. So the worst part of this movie for me is probably going to be the fact that I feel like it ends pretty abruptly, in my opinion. Like, you know, you go through all of this and all of a sudden you see light and there's the, you know, exit. It seemed very illogical. And I realized this movie had to end on some sort of point, but I don't know. To me, that was just so on the nose to end a movie like that.

SPEAKER_06 1:02:35

Wait, I forgot to mention this when we were dragging some of the visuals. Two more little worst part runner-ups, honorable mentions. One, the bats, when the bats fly out, and they're like the most shitty special effects bats you've ever seen in your life.

SPEAKER_03 1:02:48

They were bad.

SPEAKER_06 1:02:48

For how great a lot of the effects were, those bats were garbage. Another terrible example of effects is when Sarah finally gets out and then like frantically ravenously dr runs around in the woods and then drives her little truck and then stops, and then she sees Juno's ghost. That ghost was so bad looking. It was so cheesy, and I was like, oh, you didn't have to just throw something shitty in there at the final moment, but they did.

SPEAKER_03 1:03:12

It was that scene, just the fact that that just randomly pops up is zero out of ten. Horrible.

SPEAKER_02 1:03:19

Man, I was just going through my notes looking for another worst part, and I hate that halfway through I wrote, I'm not leaving without Sarah. Look, if this story isn't about Juno and Sarah's way back to each other, I'm not here for it. And I wasn't there for it, but I'm still a little bit here for it. I mean, I'm here for the potential of this fucking story. Could they ever remake it? I do think I could watch this movie again. I do have to have some time and separation from it is not something that I want to watch too closely for the plot, but for the action of it. I can get into it.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:50

Yeah, I'll definitely be watching this again. Not sure of the time frame, but it's definitely has a lot of rewatch value. I don't want to re-watch, but I'm here for a remake.

SPEAKER_03 1:03:58

I feel like a remake could be something.

SPEAKER_06 1:04:00

Yeah, now that Chris has planted the remake seed in my mind, I do want that to happen so I can rewatch that or watch that for the first time. Uh, but I guess I would rewatch this again. I think I don't like it as much as I used to, but it is still a good horror movie overall. So it's worth re-watching.

SPEAKER_02 1:04:16

Well, let's see if the rewatch becomes even more enticing with some fact or fiction. Are you prepared to descend?

SPEAKER_04 1:04:23

No.

SPEAKER_02 1:04:23

Fantastic, we'll do it anyway. Number one, unlike its American counterpart, The Cave, which was also released in 2005, this film was mostly filmed on location in an actual cave. I'm gonna say true. Fact.

SPEAKER_03 1:04:36

I'll I'll go fiction. I feel like a lot of this wouldn't be nice in a cave.

SPEAKER_06 1:04:39

Ugh, I feel like it felt like I was in a cave the whole time watching it, and I was like, this looks like it was filmed in a cave, but that can't like the logistics couldn't that couldn't possibly be true.

SPEAKER_02 1:04:48

Mostly filmed.

SPEAKER_06 1:04:49

Uh fiction.

SPEAKER_02 1:04:51

Good call. It is fiction. Uh the filmmakers obviously knew that'd be too dangerous, so they built sets at Pinewood Studios in London. Not a single real cave was used in the production of this film.

SPEAKER_06 1:05:01

No caves were harmed.

SPEAKER_03 1:05:02

Not even when they dropped down.

SPEAKER_02 1:05:04

Nothing. All sets. Number two. The dialogue when Sarah found Beth barely clinging to life and ultimately learned about Juno and Paul's betrayal was entirely improved by the pair.

SPEAKER_03 1:05:15

I could say that would be a fact. I think so too, because that felt like one of the more authentic moments of ridiculous dialogue.

SPEAKER_06 1:05:21

Ugh, now this is starting to sound plausible, but I feel like why would they let two actors completely ruin a movie and then keep it?

SPEAKER_03 1:05:28

That's not how improv works. The point is always established.

SPEAKER_06 1:05:32

Oh, fine fact.

SPEAKER_02 1:05:34

That is actually fiction. Now, the original dialogue was, as they say, truly shit. So they actually met with the director the night before, went out for drinks, and completely rewrote the dialogue themselves with careful thought and consideration.

SPEAKER_06 1:05:50

Not careful enough.

SPEAKER_02 1:05:51

Again, the plot point was already decided. They already had the things remembered engraving on that necklace. They just couldn't not use that. Rest in peace. Remembered. Number three, the women actually had no idea what the crawlers would look like, and they didn't even catch a glimpse of one until after they had been kept in the dark. Literally. No, they did catch a glimpse of one through the night vision on the camera, which when they saw for the first time. I'll go fiction.

SPEAKER_06 1:06:15

I think fact. This sounds very specific and elaborate for Chris to have made up.

SPEAKER_02 1:06:19

Pretty sure this is a fact. Specific and elaborate is my game, but this is specific, elaborate, and accurate. It's a fact. They actually kept the performers for the crawlers and the actresses completely separated so as not to spoil the Nusferatu inspired surprise. Number four. As an inside joke, based on the swarm of bats early in the film and the crawler's bat-like census, the film's production title was actually Bat Women. Please no. Yeah, I'm hoping this is fiction.

SPEAKER_06 1:06:47

I'm gonna say fiction too. Sounds like something Chris would make up.

SPEAKER_02 1:06:50

Same. It is fiction. The actual title was Chicks with Pics. Oh fuck.

SPEAKER_06 1:06:55

Yeah, that sounds fact.

SPEAKER_02 1:06:56

Even worse.

SPEAKER_03 1:06:57

Okay, Chicks with Pics though, kinda funny.

SPEAKER_06 1:06:59

That's a porno.

SPEAKER_02 1:07:00

And to round things out with our last one, number five. The film is dedicated to Meg, which is actually the director's beloved dog that died halfway through production. That better be a fiction. Fact?

SPEAKER_06 1:07:10

Fiction. It was a baby.

SPEAKER_02 1:07:12

Wow.

SPEAKER_06 1:07:13

Or like an old lady that was part of the costume department. I don't know.

SPEAKER_02 1:07:16

That is tragically a fact. And a sweet somber way to remember his pup. But for now, there you have it, folks. The descent from 2005, hand selected by our patrons with 64% of the overall vote, has earned three slashes and one hack. Now we've had a lot to talk about here, but it doesn't end here by any means. We want to know what you think. So our new team hashtag JusticeForjuno, or do you side with Ryan and think that Juno deserved what she got? Let us know. You can join in on the conversation for free by hanging out with us in our Discord. You can click the link in our show notes to sign up.

SPEAKER_06 1:07:51

If you've enjoyed listening to this episode, consider becoming one of our patrons like our new friends Gabrielle and Tom. Visit patreon.com slash hackerslash to enjoy more of the show with early access, extended episodes, bonus content, and live shows.

SPEAKER_02 1:08:04

We'll see you next time, folks, and remember safety first. Bye.