216: Lizzie (2018)

SPEAKER_01 0:04

Well, to me, it wasn't really about the murders per se.

SPEAKER_00 0:08

It's about how she murdered that puss.

SPEAKER_02 0:14

Greetings and salutations, and welcome to Hackerslash. If you're joining us again, welcome back. Never picked two for a nightbird. If this is your first time listening, welcome to the party. We are a horror movie review podcast dedicated to telling you whether a movie is a hack. A total joke, waste of time, or a slash.

SPEAKER_03 0:30

Totally killer, pun intended.

SPEAKER_02 0:32

We believe horror is for everyone, and as such, we're rating these movies with the perspective we've gained from our varying walks of life and the flavors of fear we fancy most. My name is Chris, I'm your friendly neighborhood slasher enthusiast. This week I'm joined by the Superfly Space Guy Mac.

SPEAKER_03 0:46

Say it like you mean it.

SPEAKER_02 0:47

The gore lover Alexis. Every man with the pulse has enemies. And the Scream Queen Paris.

SPEAKER_00 0:52

Old men and liquor rarely mix well.

SPEAKER_02 0:54

This week we're kicking off June by checking out a film originally released on Shudder, which offers an alternative take on the famed Lizzie Borden case. Before we bury the hatchet, though, we have some follow-up.

SPEAKER_00 1:04

Let's follow up on a movie. If this can even be considered a movie, we recently reviewed, allegedly a film, called Bunny Man. This movie was a universal hack amongst the team, and my personal opinion, the worst movie we've ever reviewed.

SPEAKER_02 1:21

You know, I actually was shocked to find that there are people on Twitter specifically who, when our lineup posted and revealed Bunny Man to be among the films, said, Oh my gosh, I watch this every year with my family. And I'm like, What? Do you commit to this on a ritualistic basis?

SPEAKER_03 1:38

That is shocking.

SPEAKER_01 1:39

I'm telling you, holiday horror has a place with everyone.

SPEAKER_02 1:42

But this, there are other Easter horror movies.

SPEAKER_01 1:45

I'm sorry, I couldn't even tell you. I haven't watched it. Unfortunately, I left y'all with that one.

SPEAKER_00 1:50

Oh my god, Alexis, it was so bad. But I digress. We wanted to hear, as always, what our listeners thought. And if you recall, recently we had a universal slash for the ring amongst the voters. Well, this week they've turned around with a 100% universal hack.

SPEAKER_02 2:06

Amazing. True polarizing opinions here.

SPEAKER_03 2:09

It was a correct choice because this movie made Thanksgiving actually seem good.

SPEAKER_00 2:13

I haven't seen Thanksgiving and I don't doubt that. Let's look at some of the comments. Matt said, I am shocked you all did this movie because I remember watching it on the Chiller channel, but totally forgot it existed until now. I remember liking the killer design a lot and rooting for the final girl, but I'll remember more as I listened to the episode.

SPEAKER_02 2:30

Hopefully he didn't remember much more because that shit was rough. I thought did we ever hear from Matt again? Did he survive that rewatch?

SPEAKER_00 2:37

Who is to say? We have another comment from Amber who said, This movie was a hack. I can't believe there are sequels. The scene where one of the characters was watching Bunyman slash bodies and then had a normal conversation without any mention of what she saw? Yikes. It was worse than Thanksgiving, and that movie was awful. I'm glad to hear I'm not alone there. Yeah, I guess Bunyman is the new Thanksgiving as far as like barometers for bullshit.

SPEAKER_01 2:59

Huh. I don't know. Thankskilling wasn't that bad.

SPEAKER_00 3:02

We have one final comment from Jake, and this one I think is really important. Jake said this I have no opinion on this movie. You all have successfully veered me away from it. Oh, we did our job, finally. We did. The podcast worked.

SPEAKER_02 3:15

Honestly, a public service.

SPEAKER_00 3:16

Jake, you are welcome, as is everyone else that did not watch this movie, but still listen to the episode because we really dragged it for Phil. And finally, we'd like to welcome one of our newest patrons to our family, and that is Jay. Jay, thank you so much for your support. I'm looking forward to reading some of your comments on a future follow-up episode. And that's our follow-up.

SPEAKER_02 3:35

On August 4th, 1892, the bodies of Abby and Andrew Borden were found mutilated in their Fall River, Massachusetts home. While their daughter Lizzie was tried and acquitted for the crime of their murders, the case has become notorious in American history and has been the subject of many films and true crime media. The case to this day remains unsolved, but one of the many theories about the murders that persists centers around a romantic connection between Lizzie and the Borden's maid, Bridget. This week's film explores that theory and offers a take on a crime that's haunted Massachusetts for over a century. This week we're talking about the 2018 film, Lizzie.

SPEAKER_01 4:11

Who's seen this one before? I have not seen this before, uh, and I don't know much about Lizzie Borden other than she possibly killed two people.

SPEAKER_00 4:20

I also had not seen this movie, but I was familiar with the tale. She's a legend, as we know. Uh, and I didn't think it was alleged. I thought it was confirmed that she did those murders.

SPEAKER_03 4:32

Allegedly. Not allegedly, I have not seen this movie before. I didn't realize they had made a movie about Lizzie Borden. I was not super up on all the facts about Lizzie Borden, just the bare bones basics of it all.

SPEAKER_02 4:44

I have absolutely obsessed over the Lizzie Borden case for many, many years, and I've seen just about every other Lizzie Borden movie you can get. There is one that I think leans more hard into the campy horror subgenre, that which is Lizzie Borden took an axe. And it stars Christina Ricci as Lizzie Borden, and honestly, she makes a great Lizzie Borden.

SPEAKER_00 5:06

Oh my god, I love Christina Ricci. Why did I not know about this? But also, why did I not know about this movie? It's Chloe Sevigner and Kristen Stewart.

SPEAKER_02 5:12

I know, it's shocking. And obviously, this is one that has kind of been on my radar because it released on Shudder, and I remember seeing it as like a featured title and thinking, ooh, I really gotta get around to that. And I just never did. But I think walking into this, knowing that it was gonna center on the speculated romance between the two and try to look at history as if what if this were true? I think I expected this to be a way more serious tone and completely void of the camp elements that I've seen in some other takes on Lizzie Borden. But what were you all expecting?

SPEAKER_01 5:43

I was really expecting something really angsty seeing as Kristen Stewart was in this movie. So not with vampires, but uh adjacent.

SPEAKER_00 5:52

Chris, you and I stumbled upon this movie when we were trying to find some gay horror movies to kick off Pride Month. And as a result of what we knew about it, lesbians, Lizzie Borden, Kristen Stewart, Chloe Sauvigner. I'm not gonna lie, the bar was very high for me. These are all things I love. I also never knew about like the potential lesbian characteristics of Lizzie Borden in that story. So in my mind, it felt like they were just kind of like, what if it was Leslie Borden? And that's how this movie got made. I didn't realize there was any like actual roots in truth or reality, or at least suspected reality. Uh so I was really interested to see like what they would do with this story and like how they would make a lesbian angle work in a story like this.

SPEAKER_03 6:34

I was expecting something very different, I think, from all of you. And I watched a trailer, and the vibe I got, if you've ever seen Tropic Thunder, is the fake movie trailer within Tropic Thunder for the Robert Downey Jr. as a priest falling in love with Toby McGuire in in the fake film called Satan's Alley. And I don't know why, but like that's the vibe I absolutely got from the trailer before I went into this.

SPEAKER_02 6:57

I've truly never seen that. Did that actually match up with what you ended up feeling while you were watching this? Was that like on par?

SPEAKER_03 7:04

Honestly, and in in some places, yes, but I think the relationship between them is really kind of amped up in the trailer and not so much when you're actually watching the movie. I think watching the movie is just about like a feeling of unease, a feeling of tension, a feeling of this is a completely dysfunctional family, and not even honestly, not even worrying about like the murder aspect of it. Mostly it was just a like a feeling of like, I want to step in and pe and give these people therapy because it feels just so tense between everyone. And and then eventually you get to, you know, when you get to the murder aspect of it, it's it's interesting, but I think you were kind of expecting it because you know what the subject is.

SPEAKER_02 7:44

I don't know about that, Mac, because the tension isn't the sexual tension between these two characters, it was super present for me the entire run. And looking at even the most subtle of glances, um, it felt very much like a Jane Austen novel where there's like so much tension when two people's pinkies almost touch, you know what I mean? It it was just that kind of like headcanon for me. And I I think there was a joke once in a video I saw from like these two guys who are ghost hunters for BuzzFeed, and they described the theory of Lizzie and Bridget as kind of like a fan fiction uh of speculation looking into this case. And I totally got that feeling watching this. I wouldn't say in a bad way, I think people associate have like negative connotations with the phrase like fan fiction, and this feels like it was done really well. One of the things that I felt though that right was was that tension, but also an overwhelming sense of oppression and repression.

SPEAKER_01 8:40

Chris, I agree. To me, this movie felt raw while watching it. You know, there's certain aspects, there's certain scenes, and it just felt like a genuine sort of action, sort of feeling that would be going on during this time. So it didn't feel like it was put out of place, and I just felt very tense. Ver I don't know, it was just I felt like I was getting raw emotion, and maybe I was getting a little emotional in this movie, and to be hit so soon in the movie with that was unexpected.

SPEAKER_00 9:11

I don't think I was hit with the raw emotion early in the movie. I think I got more of a slow, slow burn, just the lowest simmer there ever was. But because I knew what was coming, I was still intrigued and I was still invested. Like I found myself being simultaneously bored and engaged. I was like, wow, this is long. So little is happening, but I can't wait to keep watching more and to see what happens at the end. Because obviously, if you're familiar with the story, spoiler alert, you know what happens in this movie. I just didn't know where the lesbian angle would take us, and I was really looking forward to see how that would weave itself into this story. While I was watching it, I was actually serendipitously reminded because the Met Gala has recently finished, and the theme this year was the Gilded Age. And at one point, a character's reading a magazine and it was like, is the Gilded Age over? And I was like, Oh, okay, so all of these fashions are giving Gilded Age. Got it. So having thought about the Gilded Age for like a week straight, just like looking at all these runways and everybody's hot takes on Twitter about who did it right and who didn't understand the theme, I was like kind of enjoying just like looking at the Gilded Age and being like, wow, I hate this aesthetic completely.

SPEAKER_02 10:23

That feels right. That feels home brand.

SPEAKER_00 10:25

It's just too many petticoats. Let your titties out.

SPEAKER_02 10:27

And then you think about there's no like real central AC. It's hot as fuck out here. How is anybody like I am dying just recording this in a room with no AC? How the fuck are these people wearing this many layers?

SPEAKER_00 10:39

Okay, I mean you are in Miami and they are in Massachusetts.

SPEAKER_02 10:42

Whatever. That shit's still hot. A wool coat? Have you ever worn a wool coat on a summer's day? Fuck that.

SPEAKER_01 10:49

Lizzie's long sleeves looked breathable though, I will say that. To me, I thought this movie starts off kinda I don't want to say boring because I think it's setting up certain aspects, but I was really surprised about how this got my attention, especially not being a fan of period pieces. Like I hate them. I don't necessarily have an affinity for them. I don't know what it is. I just don't I I'm not drawn to them at all. But this movie kept the suspense up, it kept my attention, which really honestly surprised me.

SPEAKER_03 11:22

So I'm gonna go along with this in in kind of a way where Paris, you said it, it's kind of a slow burn. And that was a bit of a surprise to me when we're talking about a movie about murder. They do it in a way though, where they kind of spike it in here and there to remind you, hey, this is a movie about murder. Um, but they do it tastefully, which is nice. But as we're like building towards that, I think the thing that was most surprising to me is I don't even need there to be a set for this movie. They didn't even have to have a house. All I needed was just the actors. They were so strong in their performances that it didn't matter if they had period correct clothing on, it didn't matter if they had a house that they were in. They could have been on stage and I would have been completely happy just watching them perform.

SPEAKER_00 12:04

Yeah, the performances in this movie were really great, but knowing these actors, that was not a surprise for me. I think the biggest surprise for me was that Lizzie Borden was epileptic. There's a scene where she's alone at an opera and she has a seizure, and literally my first instinct was, oh my god, is she coming? I thought she was just like so enraptured in the music. And I was like, What? Oh my god. And then it was a seizure, and I was like, oh, okay, didn't know any of that. So there were a lot of just like, I guess, historical elements that I never knew about in this story that really surprised me. I feel like this was a somewhat accurate sort of biopic in that it really kind of tells you the story as we know it based on historical evidence. Now I'm sure there's some liberties that are taken, and I think some of those liberties led to a couple disappointments for me. But there's specifically one element of how they handled the ending that was a huge surprise and I was obsessed with.

SPEAKER_02 12:58

Ooh, okay. I can't wait to hear what that is. And I think one of the things that surprised me most in this movie was yes, how much it takes what we know about Lizzie Borden and the Lizzie Borden story, but then how effortlessly it weaves in things that have only been speculated and things that have been actual, like uh proven to be historically accurate, right? And then I think one of the biggest surprises here, obviously we have this angle on Lizzie and Bridget, but we see how hard they worked to vilify Andrew, who by all accounts is always known as someone who's very frugal, who's a little bit of a hard ass. But you know, when you look at um historically documented elements of their relationship, like he was very concerned about his daughters being well taken care of, even though in that society women were more viewed as property than actual humans, right? The way that his daughters couldn't really manage their own finances or things like that, and they still had it better than so many other people. But looking at how hard they went to vilify him in this movie and really paint Lizzie as a sympathetic killer, this movie does more than just paint a romantic angle. It really tries to shift the whole paradigm of who these people are and how they move through this world together. I think it really paints a plausible story. But I think what was so good about this is that even with their performances, even with knowing this story, I still thought, okay, if they're taking all this shit that's just speculation, could this movie have a different ending? Could this movie give us a perceivably happy ending? Are they going to change something up where maybe Lizzie doesn't just die an old spinster?

SPEAKER_03 14:37

The the other thing I think was it was effective. Um I think to get all the details that would have really made this interesting and satisfying would have taken at least a two-season TV show though. Because there's a lot of details about their story that they could have they could have absolutely put on screen, but it would have taken so long. And I think they got the important stuff on screen. I think the ending is tricky though, because we kind of get to a point where you have to do what you have to do, and sometimes in historical um, you know, films where you have to say, like, all right, here's what happened, just in case you you didn't know, because we can't show you the rest because we don't have 10 years to put it on screen.

SPEAKER_00 15:14

Mac, I think it's really great that you bring that up because there's elements of this movie that are non-sequential. It's sort of like a non-linear telling of the story, and we do get sort of a lot of aftermath that's depicted, and that's really where we're ending the movie. And I was kind of like, I don't know if it was the strongest choice. I don't know that I needed that to be the ending. I think we have a natural ending that can be really big and fantastic, and we didn't really end it there.

SPEAKER_01 15:47

I like that it was ended there because I feel like it gives more conclusion to the story and kind of adds to a little bit more of the characters' decisions and the choices they make and sort of the story that's going along with them. So to me, it added to like their their struggle, their influences, uh everything that they're going through, it kind of added to it for me.

SPEAKER_02 16:10

Yeah, I mean, I would say that the ending was fairly effective. I think, you know, like Alexis, a lot of these things added value. You know, I think the direction that the ending takes adds value to the relationships and some of the moments that we get earlier on in the movie. I don't know that I'm 100% satisfied. I think I would have liked something a little bit more different, but I can't be mad at it because it's like, how many different ways are you gonna tell this story that so many people are already so familiar with? So one thing that I appreciate this movie for doing is really diving into the psychology of the oppression that Lizzie felt and then looking at some of the logistics of how society operated during this time because the weight of being trapped and being oppressed and and being told what you can do and what you can't do, or who's gonna manage your livelihood, all of that was really heavy. And it's not even, I think, a particularly scary movie. I don't I don't know that it's possible for you to know this story and walk into this movie and be scared by anything. I think in some places it's beautiful, but I think what this does really, really well is kind of paint a picture of what life looked like then and how it could look again and how it still looks in so many places, should we not continue to fight for advocacy and rights and people's freedom.

SPEAKER_00 17:33

Yeah, the scariest thing about this movie was absolutely how oppressive the patriarchy has been in our civilization, uh, to the point where I was really physically ill a lot of the time, just the way women were relegated to such subservient, incompetent, incapable roles. I was just like, uh, because I know for a fact that these characters are smarter than those characters. It was tough to watch and remember, like, that was a thing at some point, and as we seem to be taking three steps forward, two steps back, it's just tiring. And I'm not even female presenting or somebody who's had to deal with this. So I can't imagine.

SPEAKER_01 18:10

Yeah, I wouldn't say it's exceptionally frightful or anything, and some of the themes that this movie explores is frightening, but to me it was more dis disgusting, I guess is the word. Um, especially some of the actions of the characters, like I was just very put off by, which was the purpose of the movie. But to me, that was the most like just off-putting, very I'm like, I know this exists, but seeing it on film and especially seeing it portrayed the way it is, and it's essentially natural the way it's presented, it's not thematic, and you know, there's a lot of drama behind it, but it's so raw. And I think that's what the scarier part is. It's like, wow, like you said, this shit still happens.

SPEAKER_03 18:54

The craziest part about this is Lizzie Borden died after World War I. Like, that's how recent all of this is, and she wasn't even that old compared to what old people are now. That being said, I I did not find the movie itself to be scary. And it it's hard to even say that it's a thriller. Perhaps it's because you know what's gonna happen, perhaps because of its tone, which is it's a very serious tone, and it seems very much like a historical fiction drama situation to me uh that includes murder, uh, but it did not seem much like a thriller, let alone a horror movie to me.

SPEAKER_01 19:31

It's funny you mentioned that because when I think of thrillers, I think of, you know, a guy running around trying to chase or find his long-lost daughter who got kidnapped. I don't know, something like that. Something crazy where people are running a lot. But this to me was such a psychological thriller. And Chris, I know you said this story has been told plenty of times, but I personally haven't seen any of the movies, just casually know a little bit about Lizzie Borden. And I think the way that they told this story and then the way the timelines are intertwined, I thought it was pretty original. And I thought it was very more psychological thriller for me because I essentially was coming from someone who didn't really have any information on this.

SPEAKER_02 20:12

Yeah, this is something that feels so different from the other Lizzie Borden movies that I've seen. I think this movie does the best to make Lizzie feel simp like a sympathetic person. You know what I mean? You r it really puts you into the into the the places of her mind where you would start to justify, like, oh fuck yeah, maybe I'd take a hatchet and and do that too. I think it does that particularly well. It really connects us to who Lizzie was in this version of the story. And I think it's a it's a pretty different take. This didn't feel like a another regurgitation of a story. This felt like a fresh telling from a new lens, from a new angle, from a new vantage point, uh, with other details uh brought back into it.

SPEAKER_00 21:01

I have never seen any property try to tell the story of Lucy Borden before. I really only know what I've heard from family members and friends growing up in Massachusetts. So I don't know that I can speak to the originality of this movie. To me, it seems original, uh, because a lot of this stuff I had no idea about, and as far as I knew, they could have just made this stuff up, and I'm like, wow, incredibly done. Uh, but to what Mac was saying earlier, I think, Mac, you're sort of off the hook now because Sphere has been dethroned as least horror horror movie we've reviewed on this podcast. Because I did not really get the tension from this. The only tension that I got, well, I got some tension, but I feel like the lesbian tension was far outweighing the murder tension to the point where I was like, this is just like a romance. This is like a romantic movie with a specific sequence of events that occurs within it. Uh, but it wasn't really giving horror or fear at all. Originality, maybe. Fear nada.

unknown 21:59

Oh.

SPEAKER_02 22:00

Okay, look, I'm just gonna say it. Uh, two women falling in love in the 1800s, pretty fucking horrific. All right, pretty fucking horrific. It's a different kind of horror.

SPEAKER_03 22:10

It's it's it's original. I think its execution is is pretty it's pretty insane in some aspects. Like I think that this movie should come with several trigger warnings attached to it. There's some stuff displayed on screen that is absolutely brutal to see, and you don't expect it. You expect it to be brutal in a murder, but you don't expect the brutality in the rest of the movie. And I know that they they used a lot of things that were inferred, they use a lot of things that were suggested and maybe talked about as being possible, but um they showed it in a way that, like, here's why this would have made sense for these characters to have this kind of interaction. And so it was is a really original take, I think, a really interesting take. But when you get to those brutal moments, it wasn't really scary to me, like kind of what he mentioned, but it's it's pure insanity because you realize that like this would have been nothing to people in 1892, it would have been just regular everyday stuff. But to see that in 2022, you're like, why? What's wrong with you? How are you even a human being?

SPEAKER_02 23:07

Okay, look, this movie has been debated uh as to as to whether or not it's it's truly horror. It does it it did release on Shudder originally back in 2018, so it gets a pass there, and I think it's one of those things where you consider the spectrum of horror and we think about horror being for everyone. This I think squarely falls on a side where I want to introduce someone to horror. I want to introduce someone who's a you know a fan of true crime because I think the gore that we get in here really lends itself as a gateway drug to other horror movies. But we have a lot to unpack here. We have a lot to get to in terms of our ratings. But before we get there, Alexis, what's our body count?

SPEAKER_01 23:47

We have unexpectedly two bodies in this movie.

SPEAKER_00 23:50

You know the two.

SPEAKER_01 23:52

And what about the animal report? You know, it's it's tough to watch, I'm gonna tell you. There's a little hatchin' hatching on fortunately on some unexpected animals.

SPEAKER_02 24:02

Really comes out of nowhere. It's not something that I was expecting personally. Not really. And two scenes, I was like, damn.

SPEAKER_00 24:08

They say a bird in the hand is worth two in the bush.

SPEAKER_02 24:10

Well, let's go ahead and get into our ratings then. Lizzie from 2018. Was it a hack or a slash?

SPEAKER_01 24:16

So I'm not gonna beat her on the bush on this. I'm going to give this a slash. This movie gave me emotions, and Chris can attest to this that, you know, sometimes I just don't get those from movies. And watching this, like I said, it was just so raw. It was just so it's felt natural and it felt what it would be during this time. And like I said, I hate period pieces, and I think it's because I do pay attention to certain details, but this I was wholeheartedly just watching. And to follow this through to see the struggles between characters and between multiple characters, and to have this, you know, psychological thriller background because I didn't know really what the outcome was or what it was especially gonna be in this movie. And also, this movie is bomb to watch, it has theatrical value in terms of its cinematography. So I really can't give this a hack. So it's definitely gonna slash for me.

SPEAKER_00 25:13

I too do not want to be around the bush, Alexis, but I'm also torn. I've been thinking about this movie since I watched it yesterday, and there's a lot of things I liked. There's also a lot of things I didn't really like. There was a choice that was made, maybe three-quarters of the way into the movie, where I was like, no, really, we're not even gonna get that. And then we kind of get it at a different time, and I was like, okay, sure. I wanted more. You know me. I want explosive, I want wild violence, I want so much blood. The gore that we did get, I liked, but I wanted 30 times more of it. And I just wanted more passion, I think, because this movie is such a slow burn and it's such a buildup of tension that I wanted there to be a really climactic release of tension, all puns intended. But at the end of the day, we had Kristen Stewart lesing out with Chloe Sauvigner, and there's finally one detail that I don't know if this is historically accurate, I don't know where this came from. It made sense. They make it make sense. But when when I saw this, I said, Well, bitch, I guess it's a slash. So while this movie is kind of long and boring, and you don't necessarily get the payoff at least I wanted, it was enough for me to qualify it as a slash.

SPEAKER_03 26:29

This was also a tough one for me because, like you've mentioned, the actors are amazing, their performances are are absolutely astounding and very enjoyable to watch. The costumes, the scenery, everything about it is is so good. It's it's tough for me because it was a bit boring. And that's just me. That's just me with my different expectations for what I'm looking for in a movie. You know, I'm the type of person that watches Marvel movies and like two days later watches Friday the 13th, and then two days later I watch a Colin Brothers movie. So like I I I like slowburns sometimes, and other times I just need flash and action and silliness. But that's not what this movie was about. So it's interesting, it has a really cool take on what happened. It bored me in the moment, but I I enjoyed being bored by it, if that makes sense. I enjoyed the performances that we get on screen. Like at a certain point, I realized I was like, I'm not really like into into it, into it. Like, I'm not really into like the story and stuff. I get it, I know what happens, whatever. I can read the Wikipedia article if I really want to. Um, but I still didn't want to look away. Now I will disagree with the gore. I think there was entirely too much gore. I didn't need to see it on screen. The the animal report that we got earlier, I don't think it you you could say way more about it because it's brutal, it's so brutal. Uh hard, hard to watch in parts. But overall, I think if you watch this, you may or may not be enthralled the entire time, but you're going to respect each aspect that went into making this film. So it's a slash.

SPEAKER_02 28:01

I'm a little surprised by the turn of events here. I did expect Paris to be on this side with me, but considering how this movie moves through its pacing, right? It is a slow burn, 100%. But for me, I didn't find it boring because it's about the plight of women and it's about the plight of lesbians. So how could I be mad at it, right? How could I be mad at this repression that I have so long aligned with in life? So a few things that I needed for this movie to be a successful slash, okay? I needed great cinematography, I needed a compelling Lizzie, I needed a believable romance, and I needed more value in the historical elements of this case that wouldn't feel a completely made up and out of place, but also B, feeling like I'm learning something for the first time. And I'm happy to say that this movie had all of that. This is for sure, I said it earlier, on the end of the spectrum, that is probably the least horror that we've ever done on this show, but it's still a good gateway drug. And I would love to show this to someone who is okay with like more serious movies, who's okay with period pieces, but is just starting to dabble into horror. This movie added value to the Lizzie Borden story, and this movie made me spiral and re-watch a bunch of documentaries that I've already watched. I actually dropped a few links in the show notes. So, dear listener, if you want to learn more about Lizzie Borden and the ongoings of the Borden home, check out those links. You're gonna learn a lot of great stuff. But this movie's undoubtedly a slash. And with that, Lizzie in 2018, the kickoff Pride Month, has earned a universal slash. Now you can find this movie available online in a few different places. You can find it on Plex, you can find it on Tubi, you can find it on the Roku channel, or you can even just rent it if you want to skip all the ads. Either way, check it out, then join us in the second half so we can dive into our ratings together.

SPEAKER_01 30:07

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SPEAKER_02 31:03

Alexis, what's the gore score for this movie?

SPEAKER_01 31:05

You know, there's about a few scenes in this movie that are gory. So I give it an overall medium because I feel like what you do see is pretty graphic, in my opinion. And I think it's so unsettling because this movie is not filled with any gore. And like you said, slow burn, then you just get hit with blood splatters, and you get hit with this disfigured face, and you know, naked bodies with blood splattered on him. Which I have to admit is very hot. You do get the deaths right at the beginning of the movie, though. Yeah, but you don't see them.

SPEAKER_00 31:40

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 31:40

I mean, you see them, you just see the bodies, but you don't see them as they happen. Because I was like, man, do I count them now? I'm assuming we go back to this later. Like, I was kind of confused. Really, the body count should have been how many times we saw those two bodies. Oh, yeah, I completely agree, which probably would have been what, six times maybe? Eighteen. Eighteen. All right. Paris, I really want to know, because you said this would have been better if there was 30 times more gore in it. I want to know how that even relates this movie because that would be so out of place. He wanted to see the flesh on the hatchet.

SPEAKER_00 32:14

Alexis. I wanted to see every single whack from Lizzie's perspective, not looking at Lizzie's face. I loved seeing Lizzie's face when it happened, but I wanted to see the murders. We didn't get to see them. We didn't see them. They happened.

SPEAKER_01 32:28

Well, to me, it wasn't really about the murders per se.

SPEAKER_00 32:31

It's about how she murdered that puss. But to me, it was very much about the murders. And the whole time we were building up to this, and then I liked the dad's face because it looked completely fucked. But I I just wanted more. And I feel like the gore score was low. I'm surprised you're giving it a medium. Are we growing apart?

SPEAKER_01 32:48

I'm just giving it a medium in perspective to the movie, I guess. I don't know. Maybe I should be maybe it should be low.

SPEAKER_03 32:55

Are you are you thinking it's a medium because they have a low quantity but a high quality when you do get it? That's kind of what I'm because I think it should be a high because the the high quality exists at all in the movie.

SPEAKER_01 33:06

I don't know. And then when they're taking the photographs and stuff, the stills on them, I'm like, yeah, I'm good.

SPEAKER_02 33:11

We need to start writing down this scale of things for you, Alexis, so you don't get pressured by Mac or me.

SPEAKER_01 33:16

I'm just saying medium, and I'm sticking by it, okay?

SPEAKER_00 33:19

Good for you.

SPEAKER_01 33:20

Because if people were watching this and I said low and they saw that, they would be thinking I'm very distressful. So just being honest. I do have to say, there's only two kills in here. So I think it's just easier to vote on our favorite. So let's go with Andrew. No, no, okay. Anyone for Andrew? Going once, going twice. I'll give him uh a fave. Yeah, he gets my he gets my vote.

SPEAKER_03 33:44

What what drew you to Andrew's kill?

SPEAKER_01 33:46

Because he's such a fucking asshole in this movie. And I think this struggle you see now that we're in the spoiler section, I can talk about it. About Bridget going for it and then Lizzie coming in and actually doing it, like, bitch, you can't do this. I'll do it. I know what my dad did to you. Like, all they deserve it. So I think his was the most satisfying for me. All right, let's talk about Miss Borden. Abby. I'm assuming everyone wants Abby dead.

SPEAKER_00 34:13

I'm voting for Abby, not because I wanted her dead, but because her death was much more brutal. And while I loved the way that Bridget wasn't quite able to bring herself to do it, and that was like a really powerful moment from an emotional standpoint, the dad didn't get nearly enough of what was coming to him. I feel like he kind of got off easy for how badly he should have been murdered. He should have just been obliterated, eviscerated, unrecognizable as a human form, and we didn't get that. But just like generally, I feel like Abby didn't really deserve to have the more brutal, vicious murder of the two. And I feel like that's what happened.

SPEAKER_03 34:47

Yeah, I agree. I think her death was a better on-screen death. Uh, I didn't understand why she had to die at all. I think Andrew's death, I think it was the delay that had me kind of dissatisfied, like the back and forth, because his reaction seemed kind of unrealistic, where he didn't really take it seriously. He's like, Okay, put the hatchet down, little girl. Like, not a big deal here. Whatever, you're fired, obviously. But I think it should have been one of those things where we're I mean, who knows what actually happened, right? But like when they show her like unable to do it, and he's like, Wait, what's going on? I think Lizzie should have it should have been just one fail swoop. She just comes in, takes the the hatchet, and boom, right in the face. But we get this still like this back and forth, this pause, and it's his reaction that kind of ruined it for me. I think Abby's death, it was just so sudden and so violent. That's what he should have gotten. And she kind of deserved a pause.

SPEAKER_02 35:36

Look, I just want to point out that I have notably abstained from voting in this sham election. Uh, and I think it's because you're all missing the much more important death that occurred in this movie, which was the death of the budding romance between Bridget and Lizzie. How the fuck could you not mourn that loss?

SPEAKER_01 35:55

I thought you were gonna say the pigeons.

SPEAKER_03 35:56

Yes, the pigeons. The pigeons were the worst part.

SPEAKER_00 35:59

Who gave a shit about the pigeons?

SPEAKER_02 36:01

Look, okay, we'll save the pigeons for later. They didn't deserve what they got. It looks like they were loved. You know, good on you, Lizzie, for donating your inheritance to the humane society after you died. But really, the potential and the romance and the connection between Lizzie and Bridget, Lizzie, who sees Bridget for Bridget and helps her learn to read, helps her with her literacy, uh, and and refuses to call her by like the housemaiden's name, like Maggie. I absolutely love that. I love that they were there for each other in their time of need. I love the way Bridget shows up for Lizzie, and I love the way that Lizzie shows up for Bridget. Granted, the murder a little excessive. I can see why that scared Bridget off. You're telling me if you saw someone you were dating. Listen, okay, look. She says to Lizzie, if you need my help, you have it. And Lizzie says, You must be certain if you say that, no matter the cost. And Bridget says, I am, because I couldn't imagine that you'd actually fucking murder someone, Lizzie. What? Uh, but I did appreciate then going back and seeing how she was part of the plan the whole time. Not just turn a blind eye and have my back, but rather give this note to her at exactly 9 a.m. And then you are supposed to be the one to get Andrew because you're seeking your vengeance. And there is the the note of, you know, at some points Lizzie and Andrew Borden were close, right? He did care for her, and she did care for him in some ways. So I love this visibility that although their relationship had completely deteriorated to the point that she's okay with murdering him, it was Bridget who was supposed to have that fatal blow in the way that he has like assaulted her and disrespected her body.

SPEAKER_01 37:41

I appreciate that. I love how we're using not actual bodies as deaths, but some other interpretations of that. I will bring that in the future too.

SPEAKER_03 37:50

Okay, can we go back to the bird murders?

SPEAKER_00 37:52

Mac, why did the birds get you so much? They're pigeons.

SPEAKER_03 37:56

Okay, those birds, like they did not deserve to get killed the way they got killed on screen here. We know that they they did get killed at a certain point for different reasons than they show in the movie, but did we have to see like the hatchet hitting the neck of the bird in close-up? Did we have to see everything in gruesome detail? Like it's a bird, it's an animal. We can give them a little respect, you know? Just like show us the hatchet, like give us the drama, but it doesn't need to connect. I don't need to see the bird's head plop off and have you scoot the body into a bucket.

SPEAKER_01 38:27

It's a pigeon, okay? Whoa. I'm sorry, but let me tell you, they used to wake me the fuck up when we lived overseas. They were always right outside my window. I was like, God, if I could only just kill one of them and now it's it's it's uh it's happening.

SPEAKER_00 38:42

Honestly, same when I lived in New York. Pigeons are the rats of the sky. Watching them die, I felt nothing. I didn't even realize we got the close-up because it was so it did that doesn't even count as gore to me.

SPEAKER_02 38:54

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 38:54

I'm sorry that it affected you so, Mac.

SPEAKER_02 38:56

I do terribly disagree because I don't think the pigeons deserved it.

SPEAKER_00 38:59

Obviously not.

SPEAKER_02 39:00

Nor did I care to see their deaths, but at least they didn't pull a Friday the 13th and kill an actual pigeon.

SPEAKER_00 39:06

Hmm. I mean, did they though? We don't know. Okay, can I talk about my favorite visual element? I alluded to this earlier in my reading, but I had no idea that these murders were committed by Lizzie Borden fully nude. And when she took her clothes off and the camera pans around Abby's room, and you see Lizzie just standing there, tits out, with the hatchet, the axe, and she just goes in for the murder, and you get this really tight shot on her face. I was just gagged. I was so obsessed with that as a visual element because, like, truly, the repression, the oppression, the layered petticoats, the buttons, the frills, the jackets, the layers, it was all too much. It was simply too much. It was literally confining her. She was so feral, she was so present and inhabited her body and was just like, this is what I'm doing. And then Chris kind of explained it to me. There was like a strategic element to that in that it was easier to hide the blood because it didn't get on all the clothes.

SPEAKER_01 40:02

Mm-hmm. Yep. Um, murdering 101 with hacker slash. Exactly.

SPEAKER_00 40:08

Murder nude.

SPEAKER_02 40:10

No, that's that's a whacker slash, thank you.

SPEAKER_00 40:13

But then later we get this visual of Lizzie at the top of the stairwell, and you just see her like naked, shadowy form with the hatchet, and she like puts it down. And I was like, my God, it's it's something almost demonic about that, but also just like so beautiful and captivating. And then we have Kristen Stewart taking her top off, never seen her tits before, incredible, gorgeous, obsessed, fell in love with her even more. I was just like, wow, look at her to be so vulnerable in this role, really just matching Chloe Sauvigner's energy to powerful actors in this scene. And then the way she was like really just giving you such an emotional performance while fully nude and holding that hatchet above her head. I was just like so captivated by that as a visual that it just like really added such an extra layer of emotional performance to me because she was just so vulnerable and she's like couldn't bring herself to do this because it wasn't in her nature.

SPEAKER_01 40:59

I get that. And I, to be honest, didn't really have anything that stood out visually to me. But Paris, when you're talking, it kind of reminded me of seeing them naked. That was the first time I saw some actual like color and some like vivid something other than gray or some sort of blue. So I do appreciate that because this movie seemed flat in that sense, but I know it was for the time. So I do appreciate that. But then as you're describing that scene, it definitely reminds me of watching it and then remembering like those stood out, and not just because they were naked, but I think it was just a stark difference from all the flat color that had been throughout the movie.

SPEAKER_02 41:40

Yeah, so think about how Andrew Borden withheld a lot of those modern day luxuries, right? Like some electricity, some indoor lighting, indoor plumbing, and everything was so dark in the house. And think about how trapped they were. And actually, my favorite visual is the cinematography of this movie because oh my gosh, how stunning and how beautiful. There are moments when they're backlit and there's just this brightness outside that really draws focus to how dark and dim everything is inside. Even the way they film some of these women, it's like they are so often filmed like through windows or in spaces where we're looking in on them from another room, just to subconsciously draw in their oppression even more. Even the moments where you know we see Andrew from the outside looking in on them and their dalliance in the barn. These women are trapped, and the more they gain control of their agency and their lives, the more vibrance and color that is restored to them. The more that we see them, not confined by these small spaces.

SPEAKER_03 42:40

Chris, it was never just a dalliance. I kind of gravitated towards the the theater shots for visual element because I like that we get to see Lizzie mixed in with society. I think the mirror shot's an interesting one. It it kind of shows this as almost being a very timeless um story because that could have been a shot in a high school bathroom. That could have been a shot in any bathroom anywhere, hanging out with all the girls, you know, spilling some tea and getting getting a bit catty with each other. I love that. And and I love the shot we get of Lizzie in the theater watching, becoming overwhelmed, of course, leading up to having um a seizure. Um, but you just see this sea of bodies, and we get that nice focus in on her, which was a great shot as well. Um, but it's it's interesting because the rest of the film is you know a couple people at all times, but in these few spaces, we get to see Lizzie absolutely like surrounded by by human bodies.

SPEAKER_00 43:38

I love that, Mac. I actually forgot about that. That was a really interesting and uh unique scene for those reasons that you mentioned, because everything else is really just this really small cast. I want to go back to something Chris said about like the the lighting. Uh I found it super interesting that literally at one point the dad is gaslighting Lizzie while literally lighting. Lighting a gas lamp. And I was like, that's that's camp.

SPEAKER_02 44:03

It's amazing. Every fucking layer of this movie is just amazing. And obviously, that is something that is historically accurate, right? So these are things that are very much happened. But to do so with such nuance and such intention, it just there isn't a single fucking shot in this movie that isn't rich with some kind of subtext.

SPEAKER_00 44:22

Yeah, it was definitely beautifully done. Really great foreground action. Specifically, I remember the shot where you see Lizzie by the pear tree, and you have all these like ivy leaves surrounding the frame, but they're completely thrown out of focus. But you just like see this one little pocket of clarity, and she's in there by the pear tree, and I was just like, gorgeous shot, beautiful cinematography.

SPEAKER_02 44:42

You talked about the foreground action, and I actually want to go to my favorite scene, which was the foreplay action with Bridget and Lizzie. It's this moment where they've grown closer. You can see the way they longingly gaze at each other. But my absolute favorite scene in this movie is not in the climax of the murders, which was intriguing, or in the tragic deterioration of their relationship, but rather in the moments when their relationship was just forming. And it's the moments where Bridget is helping her get dressed, and then they have these touches, and their faces are so close together and they almost kiss. And there's this knowing, uh, there's knowing elements between the two of them that they're so close, and there's only one reason why would they be that close, and neither one of them is fully going into it, and they're kind of holding themselves back because they understand what society is like in this moment, right? And they're kind of giving in to each other. But then for Lizzie's sister to show up and for Bridget to not just like stand there awkwardly next to her, but to return to that touch and just finish like touching up her dressing, it just shows so much potential. And I can remember in times when, like, okay, when I was on deployment and I was seeing someone on the ship, and we had these like moments where, you know, there was clearly like some kind of intimacy between us, but A, it wasn't okay. B, you know, we could have like people could have been around in any moment. And so there's just this palpable tension between the two of you. And honestly, there's no feeling like that on earth, right? That is a very unique feeling from my perspective. I loved how much that scene brought that to life. And then you get the passing of the notes. Ugh, just kill me now. It was fucking perfect.

SPEAKER_03 46:24

I had a very different favorite scene, and it was between Lizzie and her uncle John. It was honestly, if you've seen The Dark Knight Rises, it was her Bane moment where she was turning the tables on him and getting her, you know, her that moment where Bane says, Do you know, do you feel in charge? That's what it felt like when she was, you know, telling John, like, I don't have to be scared of you, and why aren't you scared of me? Because honestly, if he thinks that she just killed both of her parents, and he's there like challenging her on like you did this because of money, and she's like, You can't prove it, what makes him think she's not gonna do it to him? She could just choke him out in the prison cell. But that look of like her having that that height over him as he's seated, and him looking up and realizing that he should be afraid was such a great moment for her just her power.

SPEAKER_02 47:10

I also love the hilarity of him mansplaining her own motive to her. And it's just this it and on one hand, wow, you're a dumb woman. You couldn't possibly think of any of these details. I'm such a smart man. Look what I uncovered. But also, wow, what a what a wicked woman you are. You're so conniving and you're so um you you think you're so clever to come up with a this elaborate plan. And so it's like he's constantly on and then off a pedestal all throughout that conversation. It's so fucking weird. But I absolutely love the way she shut him down, Mac. That was a great scene.

SPEAKER_01 47:49

Yeah, his acting in multiple movies and shows always is like kind of my favorite, but I I appreciate that. There was always like him trying to go after her, but she's always like one up on him, and he thinks he is, but I don't know. He's trash in this movie as well. My favorite scene is definitely going to be the beginning when they're discovering the bodies. Because you like you all have mentioned, this movie is a slow burn, and I think even when they have discovered these bodies, there's like a calming sense throughout that movie. I don't know if it's the you know background music or what it is, but you know, when they're taking photos and everything, it's it's unlike any movie I've seen because usually when you see a body, when it's discovered in a movie, there's a lot of chaos around it. There's a lot of photos, there's a lot of people walking, there's a lot of just stuff. And that didn't feel like that in this movie, and I totally loved it and I appreciate it. And it was kind of like I was gonna say romantic, but it's not when people are taking photos of dead bodies, but it was calming and it felt right with the movie.

SPEAKER_03 48:55

You should have absolutely gone into forensics, missed calling.

SPEAKER_01 48:58

It was, I wanted to, but I didn't. You can still do it.

SPEAKER_00 49:01

Beyond the incredible kill scene, which was definitely the big high point of this movie for me. There were a couple scenes that I really enjoyed, specifically with Lizzie kind of exploring this tension that she has with her father and sort of unraveling the fact that he's a piece of shit. Uh, when she finally discovers what he's been doing to Bridget, and then she shatters that hand mirror. I was like, what is she gonna do? And then just gently scatters the shards right at the floor when he leaves. Just like a small but so like beautifully poetic way to like cause him immense pain for what he's done because she has no power. She has no power.

SPEAKER_02 49:42

What a fucking brilliant move. God, when she did that, I was like hooting and hollering in my room watching this movie, thinking how fucking brilliant, Lizzie. Because not only is it gonna cause him pain, it he very well stands to get caught in that moment. He yells so loud. Sure, she's gonna stay in bed, but imagine if Abby woke up and said, Why are you in Bridget's room? Anything could have happened there.

SPEAKER_00 50:07

Although Abby totally knew what was going on.

SPEAKER_01 50:09

Oh, when he went back into the room.

SPEAKER_00 50:11

Yeah, but Lizzie didn't know that Abby knew. So it was still Brill. The way Abby slept in a full outfit and hat, I was like, There's what? There's no way she doesn't know. She's not getting a wink of sleep in that.

SPEAKER_01 50:24

Paris, I love that, but it was funny, I wasn't getting that vibe beforehand. I thought she was gonna use the mirror to like somehow like see what was going on in the room. But I'm glad that's what it ended up being. Because what is he gonna do? Complain or say, Oh my gosh, there was glass upstairs and be upset because he's just you know calling himself out. But the father in this movie, like, it's just crazy because I think I was in suspense throughout this entire movie trying to figure out what he was hiding, what his intentions were, what he was doing. So he ended up being a character I hated because of his actions, but also a very captivating one, if that makes any sense. Because I was just like, what are your motives? Why are you in dealings with Abby's brother? You know, like it sounds like he hasn't been around. Like, why do you have all this money? Like, there's a lot of questions, and I like that mysteriousness about him.

SPEAKER_03 51:21

It was interesting trying to figure out who he was going to be in the movie when it first started, because he just seemed like an old Scrooge. But then when we get the whole I'm gonna give you a raise thing, and it's like, uh oh, where is this going? He like tells her to be a good girl. I was sick. That was that was just like a bad sign of what was to come.

SPEAKER_01 51:38

When that he said keep the door open, I was like, huh? And then as soon as that happened, I was like, oh wow, I'm a little bit more naive when I thought, but I think that's when I hated him the most. And I think it was just like this feeling that I was like, wow, she's coming from a different country, she's changing her name, you know, she's doing all these things to fit in, and then this also to quote unquote fit in and have a place to stay, have work. It's just so saddening.

SPEAKER_02 52:10

And that is one of the things that really blew me away because even in my own naivety, right? When he says leave the door open, I thought it was to say, you and Lizzie can't be alone together.

SPEAKER_00 52:21

Same. That's exactly what I thought.

SPEAKER_02 52:23

Not that Andrew Borden was gonna like attack her, that which is like more, even more disgusting than I could have imagined. Like you hear all these things about Andrew Borden being, you know, very frugal or being a tight wad, whatever, but at no point did that ever like did that possibility, and obviously I don't know why I should be surprised, as if that is something that is not entirely plausible, but that struck me so emotionally in this movie, and my heart broke for Bridget so much more. And this is the point where I'm like, well, fuck yeah, maybe I would have grabbed a hatchet too. You know what I mean? Like, Andrew, you had it coming, you son of a bitch.

SPEAKER_00 53:00

He had it coming.

SPEAKER_02 53:02

You kind of bob and weave with this with this guy because he then will go get Lizzie a necklace uh that has her mother's portrait in it, you know, a locket. And there are moments when he tries to be tender, but really he's just a monster. And he has also created another monster, you know what I mean? And Lizzie is is a woman who probably has her own struggles with mental health, right? And this obviously is not a period in time when that is seriously considered or talked about or understood or acknowledged, but she's continuously oppressed, and then he tells her that she is the reason for all the family's troubles. Like, what the fuck, dude? Andrew Borden, fucking real villain of this movie, quite frankly.

SPEAKER_00 53:43

Well, yeah, wasn't that the point?

SPEAKER_02 53:45

Yes, absolutely the point, right? This movie frames itself on Lizzie being a sympathetic killer because some other movies, or at least some other takes, right? You kind of play with the mystery of, did she actually do it? Like obviously everybody thinks she did, but they tend to take some circumstantial evidence and try to position it in such a way where maybe she didn't and it just looks really bad. But for them to lean so hard into it, she absolutely did it. But here's all the shit that happened to her up to this point, so you can be on Lizzie's side almost. Granted, I think for you to fully align with Lizzie would be a bit of a stretch, but things start to make some kind of logical sense, right? It's not just I'm doing this for money or inheritance or some power or because I want a higher place in society or because I want to get the things I feel I'm due, but rather I'm doing this because this man is a monster. He has been a monster to Bridget, he's been a monster to me, and also fuck him.

SPEAKER_01 54:46

You know what I mean? I know they mentioned the intention of the money. Do you think that played a part in it as well?

SPEAKER_00 54:52

Oh, totally. The way they killed Abby an hour and a half beforehand just to be safe with the inheritance. Brilliant.

SPEAKER_01 54:59

No, I thought that was great.

SPEAKER_00 55:00

Speaking of Abby, though, um, obviously Kristen Stewart and Chloe Sevnier did incredible jobs carrying this show. But I feel like Fiona Shaw had a really small role, but she sold the shit out of everything that she said and did in this character. Specifically, I loved a line where you can really get an idea of what her relationship is to that monster of a man when he starts coming, he's like, Oh, where's Maggie? And she's like, Really? Where's Maggie? You're coming home early and you're gonna ask that. And then she says, I'm continually astonished at the endless number of ways you continue to humiliate yourself in this family. And it's just like he's like, she's the one woman that he even remotely respects or almost looks at as an equal, and the way she just makes him so small in that moment, she's like, You are pathetic to me. And Fiona Shaw is like really great at that. She's oftentimes cast as a woman who can make someone feel small. So I feel like she did such an excellent job. And then she, like Mac was saying earlier, she really sold the shit out of that murder. Like she was terrified, and it was so quick and it was so sudden that it really helped to amplify that scene.

SPEAKER_02 56:03

She had so many great moments, and I absolutely love that Cole Paris as one of her better moments. But let me just also say this because you remind me of another confrontation with Andrew and one of the Borden women, which was him, you know, letting Lizzie know that he's gonna be giving Maggie notice and then saying, Don't make me be more blunt than that. And she's like, No, speak plainly. I want to hear you say it. And he says, You're an abomination, Lizzie. And she fucking hits him with, and at last we are at an equal footing, father. Holy shit, what a comeback, what a burn. Man, if 12-year-old Chris knew that line when I was sort of an abomination for being gay, ooh, I would have been telling everybody that.

SPEAKER_00 56:45

Literally, the women in this house can read for filth. They read this man the house down every chance they got. I'm surpr honestly, like he slapped Lizzie once. I'm surprised he didn't get violent with the more often. Maybe he wasn't smart enough to realize how much he was being dragged, but they eviscerated him with such well-chosen words, and I love that.

SPEAKER_01 57:03

He wasn't the only man that was taken down by words. I'm pretty sure Lizzie just went after Uncle John in that because you know, we've talked about it for Paris. I know you were explaining it, but it's just the role to me, he thought he had the upper hand, especially when she confronted him about the letters. And then he puts her in a chokehold. But you know what? I don't even think that even made her scared either. I think she was like, you know what, dude, whatever. At this point, my life's shitty.

SPEAKER_03 57:31

Oh, I I think it was absolutely her just biding her time until she could make whatever move she was going to make. I don't know if anything was decided by her at that point in terms of what she was going to do, but I I think obviously getting choked out by your uncle is pretty screwed up. But it was like motivation for, oh no, you didn't. You have no idea what's gonna hit you.

SPEAKER_02 57:50

You never see it coming, indeed. And let me tell you, I love it when a plan comes together. And the way Abby didn't see this shit coming, the way Andrew didn't see this shit coming, and the play-by-play that we get with how the murders unfolded, and not only that, but just how you know Lizzie and Bridget were in cahoots with one another, and seeing all of that really come together in the perfect storm of facts that we've known from history, and also some things that have been heard to be or said to be speculation, to see it so beautifully woven in added such tremendous value to the story in terms of like the legend of Lizzie Borden. But I will also say that the worst part of this movie for me is something that we've already spoken about greatly, which is the way Andrew Borden was handled. It's not even that he's vilified, I'm totally okay with that. But I don't know that we had to have him attack Bridget so many times. You know what I mean? Like it just felt like a lot. It felt obviously it's a filthy act, 100%. I get it. But to see the male violence in this movie, we already get like the hatchet violence. We get it, right? It's there, but it almost felt I wouldn't see I wouldn't say out of place, but it did turn my stomach. So it is for me the worst part of the movie. Not necessarily that it doesn't belong. I'm not saying it's logistically a bad part, but it is the part where every time it came up, I wanted to look away and not experience it.

SPEAKER_00 59:19

And it came up like two times too many.

SPEAKER_01 59:22

I agree with you, Chris. It definitely was one too many. I could get the idea that happens multiple times after one night for sure. My worst part, and I'm just throwing this out there, is I kind of wish we weren't thrown in the middle, essentially, of you know, this debacle of a family per se, or this issue. I wish I had more knowledge of how, you know, how this family came to be, you know, fortunate to have all this money. Why is this family also stingy with money? And I know that a lot of other movies that explore Lizzie Borden probably address this, but I would have liked a little bit more. Like, what about this money? Where is all this money coming from? You know, why is the uncle in the picture? Some of those smaller details I just wish I had, but it definitely necessarily didn't hurt the movie.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:09

Yeah, this is something that I think you could actually rewatch Alexis and pick up more and more on the dialogue because they do talk about that quite a bit, right? Like they do talk about um, you know, she's out earlier in the film and the women around her are asking, Why do you choose to live that way if you can afford not to? And then there's a moment where he confronts her and he's like, Well, you're gossiping me and you're talking to all their husbands and this, this, and that. And they do talk about the finances, but they do it in points in the movie where it does drag. So 100%, I think you if you were to ever re-watch this after watching like a documentary or two, your your mind will fill in the gaps pretty easily.

SPEAKER_03 1:00:45

I think this could have easily been moved into uh like a TV thing. They could have totally made a miniseries of some sort out of this and given you many more details. I don't know that it would have improved the story though in any way. Like I think if we were to stick to just the bare bones facts of what we know, it would be interesting, but not as compelling as what we get, I think, in the film. And you would have to just go into so much detail, it would be five and a half hours long at least. But my my worst part is kind of related to that. I think honestly, the worst part visually is what having to watch birds get their heads cut off. That truly sucked, and I don't want to ever have to do it again. I think the worst part was that I know you feel differently, Chris, but I think they were still a bit too ambiguous. I think they they gave us a lot of nods, they gave us some some slight touches, they got a little bit of of you know physical affection. Um, but I think a little bit more of the movie could be spent directly focusing on the relationship. And I I I know that it seems like it was a lot, but honestly, I don't think it was that much. I don't think not that I necessarily just want to see them kiss or something, right? But I I feel like it mostly was about Lizzie and the family and their dysfunctional family relationship. Um there was some good weaving in between that and their romantic relationship, but we I think totally could have had a good bit more.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:07

Okay, but here's the thing the murders happen in August. Bridget is hired six months prior. That's a very short runway for a sparking up an interest in another woman, b building up the class difference here and being able to approach that subject, and we also get them fucking in a barn. Like, I feel like we got what we needed that was appropriate to the ratio of like time spent together.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:33

You know what it is? It's that as gays, we're used to getting so little and really finding value in like the tiny almost touches, whereas like straight romances, they get all of it all the time. But like the fact that they fucked in a barn, that was huge. I was like, they fully fucked, incredible, didn't think we'd get it, but we got it, and I was like, wow. So, Mac, you're lucky that you don't have to scrap up these little pieces. I guess so.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:56

And I'm thinking for the time it was, it probably would have taken more effort to get there, knowing that it wouldn't have been like acceptable back then. But I see where you're coming from. You wanted more kissing. That's not that's not necessarily where I'm going with it.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:11

I did, I wanted more.

SPEAKER_03 1:03:12

No, I just I actually think more of more of the relationship building.

SPEAKER_02 1:03:16

Yeah, I I think to say Mac just wants more kissing is to like really reduce it down to he's just a man who wants to see girls kiss. And he's not, which isn't the case. Like, I get what you mean about like the relationship building. I just like found so much comfort in the little exchanges of them reading together or teaching her literacy. Lizzie reading to the birds, and then Bridget seeing that and just like, oh, I have to come in here for chores, and it's just so cute. And it's like, I see what you're fucking doing, Bridget. I see what you're doing all along. I really hoped that we'd get an alternate ending where Bridget didn't move away and die in Montana, but she, even though Lizzie was considered to be a spinster her whole life, that they found and and like uh really captured their love and got to live out that love post-trial. However, I realize Lizzie Borden also murdered two people and Bridget wasn't about that life. So respectable. I get it. It makes complete sense. I sound so toxic for even saying that. But for Bridget to visit her in jail saying, I never really wanted anything from you, ooh, it just hits you with a feeling of like, I just wanted you. I didn't want your money. I didn't want you to do things for me. I just wanted to be with you. And then for Lizzie to really try to like keep her around and for Bridget to then say, no, we live in this world right here, right now, it really does just like, especi especially like not only as a woman, uh, who you you think about even just being of this gender back then, right? And and how how much less you had in terms of your rights and your own agency, but to know that these are modern women acting in these roles, delivering these lines. And it's just like this little bit of meta of like, we don't live in the future, we don't live in 2018, we don't live in 2022, we don't live in a world where this is okay. No matter what you say, it's not acceptable for us. Like, if I could ignore the murder, we can't be together. And God, that's so fucking horrific. That is the horror of this movie.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:21

I love that, Chris. That was meta, and I I felt it at the time, but I didn't think I are I don't think I articulated it. And you just put it really well. The fact that these are modern women conveying these lines and really imbuing that spirit into the characters, like knowing that maybe sometime in the future, centuries from now, it gets better, but we live now, and this is just not an option for us. Kind of like what were you thinking would happen? It was really heartbreaking in that jail cell.

SPEAKER_02 1:05:44

Just like Sarah and Hannah in Fear Street, and how it was 300 years before they got to kiss and dance.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:53

Ancient lesbians. The long game, the lamenting, the things the gays will do with some. Scraps.

SPEAKER_02 1:06:01

Listen, we make it work.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:02

That sort of weaves into my worst part of this movie. Besides the fact that I wanted much more of an explosive murder, I did like what we got because I wasn't expecting what we got. I just wanted more of it because I liked it so much. But I did not want the post-murder anything. I didn't want the trial. Didn't want Lizzie in jail. I love that moment that happens post-trial when she's in jail, Chris, now that you've articulated it so beautifully. But I could have just ended with like blood streak across Lizzie's face and credits, you know? And like if I gave a shit, I would look up what happened afterwards. You know what I mean? But like when they went to the trial, I was like, oh no, we had momentum and the momentum is absolutely coming to a screeching halt. Didn't need it. I also didn't really care for how they made some nonlinear storytelling choices in this, where we start off in the aftermath of the kills, we kind of go through the whole story, skip the kills. So for a minute, I was like, are we not gonna see the murders? Are you fucking kidding me? And then we loop back and show the murders, and I was like, okay, weird choice, but at least I'm seeing it. Um so I feel like that wasn't necessarily a strong choice either.

SPEAKER_02 1:07:05

You wanted a more explosive orgasm too.

SPEAKER_00 1:07:07

I absolutely did. And I just think the aftermath was just, I don't need that. Though it did give us one fun moment where Kristen Stewart is on trial, and they're kind of like obviously patronizing to her because she's a woman, but I feel like she was also like a lower educated woman, so they were kind of playing on that as well. It was like a specific kind of gross male behavior that was addressing her as that lawyer, and he was trying to talk about like, are you sure you saw her? Weren't you washing the windows? And she was like, I don't know how much of your energy and attention it takes to wash a window, but it for me it doesn't take a lot of focus. I can multitask. And I just love the way that she said that. But yeah, the aftermath of the trial didn't need it, cut it out.

SPEAKER_02 1:07:45

Okay, but did it weigh down on you in such a way that you would never watch this again?

SPEAKER_00 1:07:49

Surprisingly, no, this is now my canon for what happened in the Lizzie Borden case. This is exactly what happened historically to a T. I have no questions about this. This is the reality now for me, as far as I'm concerned. And why not? It's happened so long ago, who cares? Let's just let it be this.

SPEAKER_02 1:08:06

We should go visit the lesbian murder house.

SPEAKER_00 1:08:09

Yes, we should.

SPEAKER_01 1:08:10

I'm not staying overnight. But I am uh watching this movie again. Chris, you mentioned that I should probably watch some of the documentaries and other stuff that explores Lizzie Borden, which I would definitely be open to. It might be my next binge thing. So uh I'll probably do that and then revisit this movie, maybe along with some others. Check the links in the show notes.

SPEAKER_03 1:08:30

Uh, your love of true crime. I'm not gonna watch this again. I'll I'll be honest. It's a very compelling watch, and I and I think it's memorable enough for me to have seen it once and and be content with that.

SPEAKER_02 1:08:41

Oh, I'm absolutely gonna watch this again, and I'm gonna do so after I re-watch Lizzie Borden took an axe. And I I plan on doing my little Lizzie Borden binge perhaps this week. And I am gonna set a goal to finally go within the next 12 months to the bread and breakfast. Even if I don't stay there overnight, I do want to take a trip up there and figure this shit out because I've been talking about doing this since maybe 2012-ish.

SPEAKER_01 1:09:08

I need to just pull the trigger and get it done. Can we go and then visit Salem and you know Absolutely? Maybe go where the Hocus Pocus house is.

SPEAKER_02 1:09:16

Absolutely. We can make it a hacker slash trip. Paris, hop in the car, we'll go together. It'll be fun.

SPEAKER_00 1:09:22

You love driving way too far to drive.

SPEAKER_02 1:09:25

Well, it looks like a few of us have some rewatches ahead of us, but for now, it's time to just bask in the glory that is Lizzie from 2018, probably the least horror movie we've ever done on this show, earning a universal slash. Now, we certainly had a lot to talk about here, but it doesn't end here by any means. There's so much to unpack in the Lizzie Borden case and in the trial and the true crime of it all. So we want to know what you think and where you stand. Were you familiar with this story? Is this your headcanon for Lizzie Borden now? Do you think she and Bridget conspired to kill the Bordens? Let us know. You can join in on the conversation by hanging out with us for free over in our Discord. Click the link in our show notes to sign up.

SPEAKER_00 1:10:04

If you've enjoyed listening to this episode, consider becoming one of our patrons like Jay. Visit patreon.com slash hackerslash to enjoy more of the show with early access, extended episodes, bonus content, and live shows.

SPEAKER_02 1:10:16

We'll see you next time, folks, and remember, we will not be victimized by fear. Bye.