218: Behind the Mask: The Rise of Leslie Vernon (2006)

SPEAKER_01 0:04

I like being tickled when I watch a scary movie. That's a creepy thing to say.

SPEAKER_00 0:13

Greetings and salutations, and welcome to Hacker Slash. If you're joining us again, welcome back. It's gonna get wet in here tonight. Lace of your boots, kiddies. If this is your first time listening, welcome to the party. We are a horror movie review podcast dedicated to telling you whether a movie is a hack. A total joke, a waste of time, or a slash.

SPEAKER_02 0:31

Totally killer, pun intended.

SPEAKER_00 0:33

We believe horror is for everyone, and as such, we're rating these movies with a perspective we've gained from our varying walks of life and the flavors of fear we fancy most. My name is Chris, I'm your friendly neighborhood slasher enthusiast. This week I'm joined by the cowardly creeper Ryan, hiya, and the Screaming Queen Paris.

SPEAKER_02 0:49

I'm sorry, I'm not a virgin.

SPEAKER_00 0:50

The people have spoken and our patrons have decided we're revisiting a film we originally covered back in episode 29. Before we dig up the past though, we have some follow-up.

SPEAKER_02 0:59

Let's follow up on a movie. We recently reviewed a classic slasher. In fact, I think this is the first slasher of all slashers, and it's called Peeping Tom. This is an episode that sadly I was not here for, even though I was, I'll say 5% interested in watching this movie only because of its reference in Scream. But as always, we wanted to hear what our listeners thought. The results are in 81% gave it a slash, and only 19% gave it a hack, which to me very surprising, because old movies, I think, are bad. And that just shows that not everyone feels that way. One thing that should be noted is that before we recorded that episode, or before y'all recorded that episode, our patrons predicted that we would mostly hack the movie, and actually, as it turns out, only Ryan hacked it, and everybody else gave it a slash, though I can almost guarantee I would have hacked it as well.

SPEAKER_01 1:50

I'm pretty sure we talked about whether or not you would, and I'm sure that you would, but I mean, you know how these things go, every once in a while you surprise me, and I'm disappointed.

SPEAKER_02 2:01

That's for the surprises and disappointment section. Uh I'm getting FOMO because apparently y'all had so much fun with the patrons when you were doing the live stream recording of the episode. Uh so for those of you who do not know, we have a Discord. It's a great place to be. In fact, we're live streaming an episode right now. That's a special patron perk. We have several many patrons in the chat dropping their GIFs. They're really going off. Actually, what the hell are they talking about? Help your balls jingle all the way. All right, patrons, settle down.

SPEAKER_01 2:30

GIFs?

SPEAKER_02 2:30

GIFs. I say GIFs, you know me.

SPEAKER_01 2:33

Ugh.

SPEAKER_02 2:34

Speaking of our patrons, we'd like to thank Naomi, the newest addition to our Patreon family. Naomi, you now have access to live streaming recording sessions. If you're not joining us tonight for recording, join us next week. Join us the week after that. Come hang out with us on Discord, Naomi. We can't wait to hear from you soon. And that's our follow-up.

SPEAKER_00 2:52

While Peeping Tom put audiences behind the killer's POV, this week's film does so a little bit differently. Instead of granting us a killer's visual perspective, this week's film takes us behind the scenes of the industry as the next great slasher and documentary crew break down tricks of the trade and show us exactly what goes into the business of fear. The very same business in which the likes of Michael Myers, Freddie Krueger, and Jason Voorhees have thrived. This week, after winning 37% of the overall patron vote, we're talking about Behind the Mask, The Rise of Leslie Vernon. Now, who's seen this one before?

SPEAKER_01 3:25

Now you know I haven't seen this, but I feel like we have talked about it ad nauseum in such random ways. I I had a hard time even like remembering what we've talked about about this. I just know it's I feel like 50% of our episodes, this movie gets mentioned.

SPEAKER_02 3:40

I feel like 50% is a bit high, but yes, we've definitely mentioned this so many times. I too, Ryan, have not seen this. I only know about it from all of the times we've referenced it. I feel like because this movie is so specific, it's the perfect reference point whenever you need to reference that specific thing, which I guess happens a lot here at Hackerslash.

SPEAKER_00 3:58

Okay, look, the one time that I think we've referenced it, well, we've referenced it several times, but the one element that I think we reference from this often is specifically the strategy of using a special kind of person to pad the body count with late in the game. And padding the body count is something that I think gets brought up very often, particularly in the gore score. But I've seen this movie several times. I saw it when it came out. I own a copy of it somewhere on DVD in this household, not that I have a means with which to play that here and present day. But this is one that I have been very fond of throughout my life, mostly because it was also one of the few really like dark comedies that I really sunk my teeth into as a young child. Now I haven't seen it since we last reviewed it a few years ago at towards the beginning of the podcast. So I was really curious to see how this would age in my eyes. But what were you both expecting?

SPEAKER_01 4:50

You know, I wasn't really sure what to expect. Like I said, I I couldn't really remember what we've talked about about it. I think I did go in thinking it was a documentary. Like legitimately, I thought it was a documentary, like like HBO, we want to tell you about how movies are made or like how scary movies are made or something. I don't know. But even that, I d I feel like I didn't have much. I just kind of went in blind, just just rolling with it.

SPEAKER_02 5:17

I had very specific expectations for this movie based on what I think I've heard everyone say about it. Uh, I was expecting it to be like a camp comedy mockumentary sort of thing, almost like what we do in the shadows. That's really where I was coming from going into this movie. And I thought that I would like it. I was like, it from what I've heard, it sounds like something that would be right up my alley.

SPEAKER_00 5:38

Okay, well, aside from if you ended up liking it or not, did it meet your expectations in terms of the style of film that it is?

SPEAKER_02 5:47

No, it did not at all. I was confused. I don't know where I got my expectations from. I think I made them up.

SPEAKER_01 5:55

I mean, I could see though how you could think it was gonna be like a campy, kind of a funnier thing. Because if someone described it, it it does kind of come off that way. So I I mean, I don't know. We're not gonna have an argument about camp here tonight, are we?

SPEAKER_02 6:10

No, we will not, because Camp was nowhere to be found in this film. And I won't say this movie wasn't funny, but at first I was really struggling to figure out the tone because I was like, I'm pretty sure this is a comedy. It wasn't really giving comedy right off the bat, but then as I was watching it, there were little comments that were made here and there where I was like, oh, they're definitely in on the joke, and there definitely are some deliberate comedic choices being made in this movie. Uh I think they could have been a little bit more deliberate for my liking. Uh, but there was definitely a strong period of time where I was having a difficult time like feeling out the tone of the film.

SPEAKER_01 6:48

You know, that's not a bad point. It it is odd at certain times, but I don't know. I think it has to do with like the unique approach that's happening here that makes it feel weird sometimes because you can't really like place it with something else that you've seen before, I think. At least again, like the approach of it. For me, I I think I just kind of like let go and just kind of rolled with it, like I said, and I've I felt mostly entertained. Things change a little bit, like kind of halfway through, and it's an interesting tonal change, but I don't know, I didn't feel very strongly about anything, but I I didn't feel bored. I felt fairly entertained.

SPEAKER_00 7:26

I had no idea what I was getting into the very first time I watched this movie, and as someone who is very enthusiastic about slashers in general, this movie tends to have like a very soft, sweet, delicate part in my heart because it paints you in the universe where all the slasher icons that we know and love are real, as if we live in this world. And one of the things that I found myself even more delighted with this time around watching it was the amount of Easter eggs that are thoroughly packed within this film. Like there's not a moment that goes by that there isn't something somewhere stuck in the corner of the frame that alludes to something else or references another movie. And you know, the jokes, when you know what's coming, when you know the way that this plot unfolds, when you get to a certain point and the tone shifts in the movie and you've already experienced that, I wondered, could this still have a good taste in my mouth? And I found myself still entertained and yet not a bit disappointed, which is something that surprised me. I thought, I've seen this movie so many times by this point, surely it's gonna start to feel a little bit stale.

SPEAKER_02 8:35

I too was very entertained throughout this movie, Chris, and I feel like having reviewed so many slashers that I never would have watched if it weren't for this podcast sort of helped to provide context for this movie for me. I think I picked up on a lot more than I ever would have before becoming a member of this podcast. Uh, I will say though, speaking of stale, these performances were not giving to me. Especially our main character, Leslie Vernon himself. That man, I think, was poorly cast and a real disappointment because of how much of the film relied on him being able to deliver a specific type of thing.

SPEAKER_00 9:13

Excuse me? What?

SPEAKER_02 9:15

This I I cannot believe Big Flop Mega Doo-Dukaka.

SPEAKER_00 9:19

No, I cannot believe this guy has not been in more since because I thought he perfectly balanced this kind of creepy but also charismatic approach to this movie. He's one of the best parts of this movie. Are you kidding me?

SPEAKER_02 9:36

Boo. I couldn't disagree more, and that is why we are friends.

SPEAKER_00 9:40

Oh my god.

SPEAKER_02 9:42

It is no surprise to me at all that this man has done nothing else with his career.

SPEAKER_01 9:46

Paris, I don't think I agree with you. I feel like I feel like Leslie was really like holding it together. Really? I mean, I'm not saying it was like incredible. Not I'm not here to like rant and rave about him, but I do feel like he did his thing, and he certainly wasn't like the downside of this movie. If anything, it's our freaking journalist and camera guy. They're the worst parts of this. They're they're just there. They could have been sour patch kids, okay? They could have been anything on camera. They could have been nothing. We didn't even need them. I mean, they talked a little, they added, you know, really all they did was ask questions and make obvious statements. But for me, as a person who likes to like walk around life and just say, dude, what if this was real? Or just like spend time imagining scenarios where unrealistic things are happening, and then coming into this movie, which is basically like, what if slashers were real people and had these real lives and these real stories and like real goals, and this is what they were trying to do. And that's exactly what this movie does. And it's such an interesting angle that I wasn't prepared for. And I that's what kept me interested. Because honestly, if it wasn't that, if it was just like a documentary type of thing of just some dude killing people, I would have been like, who cares about this? But that kept me in there, and I was just I was just so surprised by that being the element of it because again, I I did not know that going in, and it's just really cool and really unique, I think. And I enjoyed that a lot.

SPEAKER_02 11:17

I think, Ryan, you're touching on something really strong about this movie, and that is how original this is as an idea, as a concept, as a shift in perspective. I feel like this movie was definitely made by people who love slashers, who love horror. It was very well informed, and it was such an interesting and unique idea and approach to storytelling. And like Chris was saying earlier, I loved the setup of like, hey, this exists in a world where all of these slashers are real. This is canon, that's the that's the universe we're living in, and this is what things look like from the other side. So I think originality, this movie might be one of the most original movies we've reviewed on the pod.

SPEAKER_01 11:56

Yeah, I have to agree. I mean, you know, it's similar to what I just said. I I just think it's such an interesting angle. I mean, literally, there's a point where they talk about killers being hacks in this movie, and it's so funny. It's not laugh out loud funny, but it's just like hilarious writing that's not comedy writing. And I uh that's like a thing that gets me. I don't like comedy writing. I just like stuff that's funny. And to call a killer a hack is hilarious because you would imagine there would be hacks, right? Like there'd be like the the people that take like the easy routes and like they kind of suck. But also their hacks. Oh my god, kills me. That's what I that's all I need here.

SPEAKER_00 12:35

I think that's because the writing is not only effective in deconstructing slashers and horror at large, but also really doing a good job of not taking itself too seriously. Like it still allows you to have fun with it. And I think obviously looking at let's say Scream, Scream came out 10 years before this film in 1996, and it was a very different approach to meta and the deconstruction of the slasher genre. And this one even takes a step further back and really deconstructs the whole plot. And you have this moment where in the early 2000s, slashers were not doing super well, all right? We had a few remakes already done, we had more that were yet to come, and this is one that really needed to make a statement if it was gonna do well. And what I love is that you get this deconstruction of things, but you get it with a tone that is not only comedy, but it's also reverence, and it's like a love letter to it. I think one of the best parts about it is how not scary that makes it. I love that you're kind of put into this world with a what I thought to be a charming killer. And there's a point where yes, things kind of change up a bit, but because you know the story so well, you're just having a good time, not a frightening time when you're in there.

SPEAKER_02 13:53

Yeah, this movie deliberately trades a fright factor for I think originality and thorough researched quality of mechanics that go into a lot of these stories. And I think that was a fair trade. I'm not mad about that trade at all.

SPEAKER_01 14:07

Yep, I totally agree. I think, you know, to add to that, the things that they do as like farce tying everything in, like, I have like one loose end kind of thing, but they hit their marks and they yeah, traded the fear for that. With that being said, I think we get some twists at the end. They're kind of twists, they're kind of not twists, I guess. I was okay with the ending. I wasn't like in love with the ending, but I'm not mad about it. I think it was alright enough.

SPEAKER_02 14:35

The ending for me, I just had to remember as you were talking, Ryan, because I couldn't remember it. It did not really stand out too much for me. And now that I do remember, there's a specific thing that I think they could have played into a little bit more in referencing something that was revealed earlier in the film. And they do sort of do it in the like mid-credits sequence that we get. Uh, but I think I would have liked just like a tiny little bit of a touch more of that to kind of really be the cherry on top of every single slasher trope that we know and love.

SPEAKER_00 15:06

So when I first saw this movie, I thought it had one of the absolute best endings that I had ever seen in a horror movie, particularly one that it's not like a super serious horror movie. And I think even throughout all these years, it's aged really well. But I will say that there's an element about the third act, not just the ending, but the third act as a whole that I think I could have done without. It's not something that I think is even enough to really sync the movie. But what it does do is add on to the runtime just a bit, where you start to feel like, okay, if I've seen this six, seven times, I'm gonna do something else while this part of the movie is playing out because it doesn't add any emotional value for it anymore. But beyond that, I still find the ending to this movie wholly satisfying. But what I'm curious about is how the scores here are gonna shake out because I have a feeling I know where this is gonna go. Now, as we make our way to our rating, how many people died in this film?

SPEAKER_02 16:04

We have ten kills with an asterisk.

SPEAKER_00 16:07

And what about the animal report? You know, I I would have expected there to be something to report here, but it's actually good to go. Well, fantastic. Let's go ahead and get into our ratings then. Behind the mask of the rise of Leslie Vernon, as voted for by our patrons. Was it a hacker or a slash?

SPEAKER_01 16:21

So I think normally this might seem like a movie that I'm gonna hack. I think it kind of seems like it's gonna go into like the comedy, campy, kind of nonsense territory. And it gets close a couple times. It gets a little, a little, a little silly. Not actually, it doesn't even really get silly. It just gets to the point where you're like, please don't go that direction. And as soon as it gets to that point, they pull it back. And I don't know. I think I'm just super intrigued by how they approach this. And again, I had no idea what to expect. So none of this was kind of like spoiled for me. It was just surprising and exciting. And again, little things like the idea of a killer being a hack, they tickle me. And I like being tickled when I watch a scary movie. That's a creepy thing to say. It's very uncomfortable, but plus five. And you know, it just it's just different, and I really like how different it is. I don't feel remarkable feelings about this movie. I don't wanna like scream from the rooftops that I saw it and that I want everyone to watch it. I don't think I'll be referencing it every other episode, like our lovely Chris here, but I do think I really like it. I'm gonna slash it just because it's original. Like, honestly, this is one of the most original approaches I've seen, and they do it well. And there's only one thing that I'm not sold on, and it is why the journalists are there. That is the only thing where I'm like, this is absolute nonsense, but the rest of it is really not nonsense, and it's just slightly funny, just funny enough, but not trying to be funny. Just like real people. Like, if this was real, this is what it would be like. And I can't hate on it for that. So it's a slash.

SPEAKER_02 18:02

There you go. I feel conflicted about this movie. I'll say that. The first act I found to be charming. Uh, even though Leslie Vernon himself, I was like, you aren't doing I mean, you're doing that thing that you're doing, uh, but it's not what I think you should be doing, and it's not what I would like for you to be doing. Uh, I surprisingly liked our main journalist character. For the first act, I was like, oh, she's dumb? She's straddling the line of being in on the joke and being the butt of the joke, which I think is a fine line to straddle, but by the end of the movie, I found that she was not doing that intentionally, and it was sort of just coincidental that she was delivering that kind of a performance. I think this movie is a really great idea, but I I'm not thrilled with how it was executed, so much so that it came up with a word in the shower, and it's meh execution, uh, because the execution was meh. I think it was such a good idea, and yeah, it was like well done and it was well researched and it was really well informed, and you can tell that these people like really, like Chris said, they have so much reverence for the genre. I don't have that much reverence for the genre, and even I could appreciate it, but there were so many things that I think were missed opportunities. Like this movie didn't make me laugh, it wasn't as funny as it could have been. Ryan and I are very different in that, but also it wasn't scary or funny, so it was like at least be one or the other. It was interesting, so it gets points for that. It's definitely not a terrible movie. If you love slashers and you've never seen this, I feel like this is required viewing, uh, so you should definitely watch it. But it wasn't something that I particularly enjoyed. A lot of it felt very male gazy while simultaneously pointing out how male-gazy it was. And then sometimes that actually was interesting to me. I was like, oh, uh, okay. Uh, but it kind of reminds me of how uh I just recently watched the movie Men, which has some really poignant things to say about men and male culture, but it was also completely written and produced by men. And I was like, well, sure, okay, I guess that's something. Uh but ultimately, like Ryan said, there's a quote in this movie where somebody says, There's always been hacks out there. And I think this is one of those for me.

SPEAKER_01 20:02

You really flipped my favorite moment into a negative moment.

SPEAKER_02 20:06

I wrote it down thinking it was a positive moment, but by the end, I was like, no. And one last thing. I had like two different ways that this third act could go that would have been better than the way the third act went.

SPEAKER_00 20:17

I don't know, because based on everything that Parrish has shared, he dislikes. I feel like if he made this movie, it would end up being something that I hate because I absolutely love everything in the fabric of this movie's DNA. I love how packed it is with love. I love the humor in this movie. There are subtle things even with small gazes that we get in the background from some of the extras that I find to be absolutely hilarious. And I think that Leslie Vernon is absolutely hilarious. He is the comedic anchor of this film, and I think he does a great job with that. Jury's still out on Taylor. I I don't disagree. I do find her to be a bit of a wet blanket, but I did like the rest of the camera crew, and I like the direction that on paper Taylor's character goes. I like the direction that the movie takes once it starts to get into the third act. And this movie is something that just gets better every time I watch it, even if it doesn't get more surprising. It's jam-packed with Easter eggs that I think it will only take you a couple watches. Maybe if you're really if you're really astute viewer, maybe just the one watch and you'll get everything. But because there is so much there, it it just adds a little bit more of that rewatch value. This is a movie that's a good time. This is a movie that I would rank up there with Tucker and Dale versus Evil. And for that, it's a feel good slash. And with that, behind the mask, the rise of Leslie Vernon from 2006, another different approach to meta horror in the slasher subgenre, has earned two slashes and one hack. Now you can find this movie available online for a little bit more of a premium rental price, or you can find it cheaper to rent on YouTube. But either way, check It out, then join us in the second half so we can figure out how Paris would have made this movie different. We'll see you in a bit.

SPEAKER_02 22:12

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SPEAKER_00 23:01

Welcome back, folks. You're now entering the spoiler zone for Behind the Mask, The Rise of Leslie Vernon, which has earned two slashes and one hack. Now we have a lot to get to here, but before we get into the specifics of our ratings, we have the matter of gore to attend to.

SPEAKER_02 23:21

There were so many kills that were shown, actually not shown. There were so many kills that happened off-screen. And yeah, maybe we got a sound effect, maybe we got an implication, but I need more. I need more gore.

SPEAKER_01 23:33

I totally agree. I think we get a little bit a couple times, but then we get nothing so many other times.

SPEAKER_02 23:39

So many other times. And it got to a point where I was like, they're deliberately not showing kills. Maybe these people aren't dying, and there's a twist that I'm not anticipating. And that wasn't the case at all.

SPEAKER_00 23:49

No, it it truly wasn't. Okay, but there was some gore. I mean.

SPEAKER_02 23:54

I'm struggling to recall.

SPEAKER_00 23:55

Okay, look, there was a little bit of gore. Not a lot, which again I personally enjoy for my brand of horror and slasher. But favorite death, the second stoner, the blonde stoner, because he has his fucking heart ripped out with a post hole digger. That was so dramatic. His little heart is just s squeezed and ripped out of his body.

SPEAKER_01 24:16

I mean, I do think there were some. Like that's a good point. There was just so many off-screen kills that it was a little bit, a little lacking, you know? Alexis would be Sag, I think, if she was here.

SPEAKER_02 24:26

Okay, but great. On-screen kill, not my favorite, but one that definitely deserves mentioning in the gore score, Leslie Vernon himself. Even though maybe probably looks like didn't die. Uh, but just to have your head crushed in some sort of medieval Apple crusher machine, what the hell was that? But it looked perfect for a murder.

SPEAKER_01 24:45

So first and foremost, uh, you're not supposed to talk about kills until after everyone else talks about kills, because that's my favorite kill. Good. You dingus, thanks for taking it from me.

SPEAKER_02 24:54

I'm sorry. And it wasn't my fave, so please elaborate.

SPEAKER_01 24:58

It's not even particularly medieval, it's just manual, okay? It's just not automatic. But it's just, you know, it's a full circle moment. And it's the most fun one because he like feels it seems like he's not gonna get fully killed, right? It seems like she's gonna kind of chicken out and stop, and then she just gives it one more tug. And it was it was good. I I wanted to see him die, and I wanted to see that mask die too. Hated that mask.

SPEAKER_00 25:20

I didn't mind the mask at all, but okay, did either of you watch the movie through the end credits to see the extra footage? Yes.

SPEAKER_01 25:28

I famously never do, and I did not, and now I'm sad that I didn't.

SPEAKER_02 25:32

I did, because I I needed to know if the thing that I had thought was true.

SPEAKER_00 25:36

Which was.

SPEAKER_02 25:37

So he talks about when he's putting on his little grease paint face, he's like, Hey, I made this myself and it's flame retardant. And I was like, Okay, that's gonna come up later, I bet, because this movie was very thoughtful about everything that it did. Uh, and then obviously he's burned alive inside that house. And I was like, okay, but he's obviously thinking flame retardant, so let me see him just walking out of this flaming building as it burns as like the final shot. And though we didn't get that, we did get that credit scene where he's in the morgue and then rises up and says, Hey bitches, I'm not dead.

SPEAKER_01 26:08

That is a good point though. That's see, that's the kind of thing that's like really clever about this movie, is they like they tied a lot of stuff together. And if you're paying attention, the little flame retardant line becomes meaningful.

SPEAKER_02 26:19

Well, that final death, quote unquote death, was definitely a real highlight of the gore for this movie for me. I think my favorite death was actually Lauren, and it was because they made so many references to like the male gaze in this movie, and then proceeded to show us like what that looks like and all of these things. And we had already gotten an upskirt shot of Lauren climbing the ladder, and I was like, okay, I yes, I see what you're doing. But then they gave us the same exact shot a second time, and it actually made me laugh out loud, and then she just gets snatched up and murdered up in that barn. And I was like, that's actually very funny to do the exact same like panty shot before a kill, that got me good.

SPEAKER_01 26:56

Yeah, see, that didn't stand out to me as like male gazy. It stood out to me as like making fun of the stupid shots that we get in horror movies, you know, just like the Exactly. Just like the titties, you know, they didn't feel like, hey, look at these boobs. It was like, hey, look at what you normally see in a scary movie. Like, you know, you can't be without the boob scene.

SPEAKER_02 27:14

Yeah, and it was funny when her camera guy was doing that and she was like, really? That made me laugh too.

SPEAKER_01 27:19

Exactly. One thing I think that stands out to me, not in a good way in this movie, is that visually it's not doing it for me. This was not like a, oh my god, you should really see this. It's so beautiful, it's shot so well, it's so lovely. I mean, half of it's handheld, and it's not bad handheld, but I actually don't have a favorite visual here. And again, like, I don't like a lot of people like the mask and everything, and I hated it.

SPEAKER_02 27:44

I also hated the mask, Ryan. It felt very Halloween season of the witch, you know, except I think all three of those masks were better than this mask.

SPEAKER_01 27:52

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 27:53

But it felt like budget, it felt like a budget mask. But I mean it was kind of DIY, which is a little bit part of it. Uh, but I do think my favorite visual probably goes to those specific shots that we get that are callbacks and references to the cliche things that we always see in horror movies, like the boob shot, like the upskirt, the classic pitchfork stab from behind, that kind of thing. I think a lot of those shots, and I'm sure Chris has even more specific details about the reference points for those shots, but I feel like a lot of those were specific references to so many different things that we've all seen dozens of times in horror movies, and I appreciate that level of detail.

SPEAKER_00 28:28

I think one of the best things about this movie visually is how it plays with two different mediums. This movie starts with this really cinematic approach, and it throws us right into the thick of things with Kelly, and she's dumping out the trash, we get the brick uh sliding out of the door, we get her being spooked by Leslie, but then we get into this almost bound footage mockumentary style, and I absolutely love the parallels there. Very rarely doesn't give you the uh flip back to the cinematic approach, except to occasionally remind you of what they're actually there to do, particularly when we get that to that moment in the library, right? We have this overhead shot as Leslie's plan is coming together, and Kelly approaches the librarian asking if she knows anything about this article. And I love that thoughtfulness and that approach to it, all the way up until we get to that point in the third act where the movie's over, the documentary's over. We're full-on living in the horror movie now. And I love that duality, but I think the best moment that that is showcased, that really that mockumentary style comes in my favorite scene. And it's when we're getting introduced to Leslie, and he's giving them the initial tour of how things are done. So he gives this explanation, and we have this moment where he's hitting a punching bag and he talks about how much cardio he has to do. The thing that stopped me in my tracks and almost like had me dying with laughter was the explanation and the acknowledgement of you know how much cardio I have to do. There's that whole thing of making it look like you're walking while everyone else is running their asses off. It's tough. You gotta stay right up there with them. Best moment of comedy for me, and then also loving just that makeup of this is what it feels like to be in a documentary behind anyone else's kind of job, except with the hilarity of the framing of it being a slasher icon.

SPEAKER_01 30:22

Yeah, that is such a charming scene. I love it. That's what makes this movie a slash for me, stuff like that. And then so to go from there, mine is gonna be when he's like hanging out with Eugene both times. First, when he finds Eugene and Eugene's in his deep state of rest, because sometimes you have to fake dead, which is hilarious. Um, and you know, when they go in the house, like Eugene chopping up all the stuff like intensely. It and the conversation again about the hacks is so funny. And then later they come back and and they're so stoked because Leslie got his Ahab and they're so like excited about it. And it's just so funny because I could see this being a real thing. Like I could see this being a person that does this, and this is their real conversation. They got a neighbor down the way that's like their mentor, and you know, they go down and they're like excited because it's a new step in their career and whatever. It it just, I don't know, that stuff just tickled me. And truly, I think those charming moments in the first half of this movie did enough to make me care about the second half, and it it wasn't easy, so yeah, more power to him. I love it. I I love all those little goofy scenes celebrating uh his career as a killer.

SPEAKER_02 31:35

Yeah, he was definitely laughing when they were digging up Eugene in his deprivation tank. That was a funny moment for me as well, Ryan.

SPEAKER_01 31:41

I was like, were there sensory deprivation tanks when this came out?

SPEAKER_02 31:45

I guess. And they were underground. I was like, the whole time, I was like, what if a little centipede crawled into the vent pipe and then there's just a centipede down there with you, and you're no longer deprived of senses, you're covered in centipede senses. That's how my brain works.

SPEAKER_01 31:58

No float tanks in this time, you know? Like the float, the company didn't exist anyway.

SPEAKER_02 32:04

My favorite scene though is definitely where we get the the revisiting of the brick scene where Kelly's taking out the trash because we start off with that scene, and it's such a classic horror scene where it's like person goes out somewhere spooky, door closes behind him, oh shit, how did that happen? Oh my god, who's that over there in the shadows? It was like a very classic scene. And then just to see like the breakdown and the mechanics of how all of that plays out and how it requires so much like serendipitous, like the stars kind of have to align for this to really play off well. I found that to be really entertaining. And then just the fact that our journalist was the one that pulled the string that had the brick. I'm like, at this point, you're an accomplice to murder, bitch. And that was very funny to me. And she her kind of struggling with that throughout the movie was was interesting, and something I thought that they might have played on a little bit more. But seeing how that scene all played out was from both angles and both perspectives was really great for me.

SPEAKER_01 32:56

Yeah, and the way Leslie like knows what's gonna happen, has a plan for all of it. When he starts like doing his, you know, plan formulation, I was like, all right, he knows what he's doing, and it worked out perfectly.

SPEAKER_02 33:07

I also loved the scene where we had the woman from Poltergeist as the librarian because like obviously they're talking about this library thing and all the things that are gonna happen. And then when she came out as a librarian, I was like, Oh yes. Is her name Zelda in real life?

SPEAKER_00 33:19

Zelda Rubinstein.

SPEAKER_02 33:20

Oh, Zelda Rubinstein, legend, icon, and star. When she delivered her little monologue about the story, I was like, You better work, bitch. You could sell any ghost story to me, and I would absolutely be so compelled by it. And it was really sad that she had to die in that library scene, and that Freddie couldn't save her.

SPEAKER_01 33:37

Speaking of Freddie, Robert England, I think the supporting casts in this movie is pretty interesting and compelling. Not necessarily the gang of kids at the end, because y'all know how I feel about gangs of kids. They're usually wretched, but Eugene, Robert England popping up, all these people, the poltergeist woman, these people made it a very interesting story because, like, how were these worlds colliding? I mean, I know their worlds are not actually colliding in this movie, but it just adds to kind of the funny elements that they have there. But I do have to say, Taylor sucked for me. I did not enjoy her. She was just like an accomplice to a murderer. I didn't have an understanding of how she rationalized doing this. I know they kind of like talk about it in the beginning, but it like, I didn't believe that she would be there doing it. She seemed like too good of a person to be interviewing someone that she knows is killing people. It seemed like maybe she would do this if she didn't think they were actually doing it and thought it was kind of like a hoax. But it didn't make any sense to me that she was there. It that is the one thing about this movie where there's so many details that they tie together. That one is like, why? Why why would you ever be a part of this? Why would you pull the brick out the door? Like you're a part of this girl dying.

SPEAKER_02 34:48

And Ryan, I totally felt that same thing. It didn't make a lot of sense that she would continue to go along with this knowing that it was murder and it was all leading up to murder, which is why I thought they were building up to something really interesting that I wish would have happened in the third act, where having learned the full plan and finally being able to appreciate the genius that is all of it, I thought we would have a reveal where at some point Leslie gets the chop and she ends up being the killer in the third act who follows through on the whole plan and it's her underneath the mask the whole time. I would have been like gagged.

SPEAKER_01 35:24

Yeah, I feel like they did like something a little bit with that, like with having her kill him. But I don't know. I I also thought so, especially because the name Leslie is so ambiguous. I really thought it was like it's gonna be Leslie, but like it's actually like this is actually Leslie. You know, there's there's definitely some things I could do, but I don't know, that would have been like twisty turny. And this this movie was not necessarily twisty turny.

SPEAKER_02 35:49

I mean, it gave us the twist of her being like the the survivor girl or the final girl, which I was kind of like this whole time you were a virgin and you didn't even bat an eye when they were like, don't hang out with virgins, virgins, virgins. And then all of a sudden, yeah, she's a virgin. Like, really girl, you didn't have any clues, any hints.

SPEAKER_00 36:04

Well, it's kind of like those moments where you are the person behind the camera and you lose situational awareness of everything that's going on around you because you're kind of just stuck through the perspective that you have. And at that point, she's not really considering herself for the role that she really plays. And I thought that some elements of her being there, Ryan, like obviously they're grad students, they're probably doing this for some thesis project, etc. But I thought it was her own ego that kept her in it and kept her along with it. I think it probably probably started out with, okay, clearly this is a sham, this is a hoax. And the more serious it got, you see Doug and Todd, who are like, we can't seriously be backing out of this, or they're kind of like at odds with her the entire time. I found Taylor to be pretty unlikable. I don't mind the fact that the whole movie's actually about her. I love the twist that she's actually the virgin that they're talking about the entire time. I don't mind at all that she vanquishes Leslie, but there's just something about her that if I could find like a weak point in the movie, it would be her. Everyone else in this movie, I felt outshined her, and I felt like she wasn't keeping up with anyone else.

SPEAKER_01 37:19

Yeah, also this movie helped me identify something that is now one of the things that bothers me, which is when we have like a first-person perspective, like kind of, you know, journalist camera kind of situation. When the cameraman talks and when they talk to the cameraman, it bothers me so much. And I don't know if it's because like it kind of breaks the fourth wall, maybe a little bit, but it always just feels so disconnected. And like, especially because the first, I don't know, four or five times he talks, we haven't seen him. And it just, it just bothers me. I don't like that. And I already didn't like her, and I already didn't like, you know, the documentary type of style we were doing. So when she's like asking questions to the cameraman, I'm like, uh, just like we don't need that. Let that go. That's a new thing that I hate, okay? Let it be known.

SPEAKER_02 38:00

The list is getting longer.

SPEAKER_01 38:01

Oh, it is. But the list of things I love is also getting longer.

SPEAKER_02 38:04

That's good too. It's good to have balance. So this isn't one of those movies that was complete garbage bullshit, like so many of my hacks are. Uh, so it's not difficult to find a best part about this movie. I really love the concept. I think there's a lot of really clever elements to the script in this movie. I think specifically the attention to continuity that this movie has is really consistent, and that's something that I, as a Capricorn and a very analytical movie watcher, appreciate. It feels like there was, like Ryan was saying earlier, there really weren't any loose ends. There was nothing that was referenced at one point that isn't later relevant for one reason or another. I even loved how the relationship we have between Eugene and his wife seems to be a former predator-prey relationship that she even makes a really funny joke about. She's like, Oh, I ran so fast, didn't I? And I was like, this is a really adorable premise for a relationship that is so dark-sided. And I really appreciated how every little element of this movie made sense and tied in together this overall universe that they built and inserted themselves into quite effectively.

SPEAKER_00 39:08

There are so many compliments to give this movie, and I do have a single worst part, but let me first do this. There is a moment that gave me such a feeling of satisfaction that I've only been given the very first time I ever played Dead by Daylight, and I realized that so many of the tropes that we see in horror movies are present in that game. And it was here when he's doing the walkthrough of the house and he's talking about how they're naturally gonna go for all the flashlights. I've already put dead batteries in them. Or he talks about how he subtly nails the window shut and she says, Well, won't they just smash them out? He's like, You'd think, but you'd be surprised. No. And when they do, it's on the second floor and then they fall. And he's like talking about pre-cutting the trees. The elaborate detail that he takes to preparing and staging this house because he is at a severe disadvantage, I absolutely love. That also, though, leads through what I think is, I say worst part of the movie for me, but not a complete downfall of the movie. And that's when he's walking through what the game plan for the night is, and we get this point where we see the footage of how the night is going to play out, and we end up seeing it twice. And it's not that on paper it's a terrible idea by any means. I still overall enjoy it, but it does diminish a little bit of that rewatch value when you've seen it so many times and you have to sit through it three, four, five, six, seven times, and it just takes a little bit of the shine out. You know what?

SPEAKER_01 40:38

I completely agree with you because I was like a little tapped out when he was really giving every single detail, like like moment by moment walkthrough. And I was already kind of un uninterested, like, okay, like I'm I want to watch the movie, not be told about it. And then when it all happened, I mean it didn't happen exactly as he described it, but god, we saw that little clip of her like sliding down that little slide thing, like I think four times, because he when he was saying it, and then the journalist said it, and then it happened, and I don't know, it was a lot. But I I think it just got like a bit much when he was describing, and then also when Taylor is like talking them through everything that's gonna happen, and like, no, he's gonna do this, we're gonna throw him off and do this. And I I don't know, it just became a lot of explanation, and I I I didn't particularly care.

SPEAKER_02 41:27

I agree with what y'all are saying though, the explanation of events and then like the foreshadowing and then the actual happening and then the explaining of what's actually happening, it did get a little bit repetitive. Parts of it kind of reminded me of the movie Clue, which I didn't hate. Uh so it was it was a little bit bittersweet for me, that specific element.

SPEAKER_01 41:45

One of our patrons mentioned trimming the fat down to like a tight 120, and I think this is where the fat gets trimmed, and it it would be nice. Maybe not all of it, just some of it. Like I don't need to know everything and then see everything.

SPEAKER_02 41:58

There's definitely room for an edit there.

SPEAKER_00 42:00

Yeah. So on these pain points aside, do you think this is a movie that you'd ever be willing to re-watch and experience again?

SPEAKER_01 42:06

I'm only interested in re-watching because I know I missed details. And now that I like know what's going on, I can focus on background stuff rather than just the story and what they're talking about. I know there's a bunch of cool stuff, cool Easter eggs, and I would like to see them. I ain't gonna watch it soon, but I would one day.

SPEAKER_02 42:22

I definitely won't re-watch this. I do not want to do that, but I am glad that I finally watched it because it's been something that I've been wanting to watch for a long time, and I will be able to use this as a reference point for many things and many episodes to come, dear listeners.

SPEAKER_00 42:35

This is a movie that I've seen plenty of times, and I will continue to watch it. I think I'm good for a little while, but one of the things that I'm really thrilled by is the idea that I they were going to start making a sequel to this film. And that is something that I greatly anticipate.

SPEAKER_02 42:50

I don't even need a sequel, but I think this movie would be really well remade, especially now that we've made like just a couple advancements in technology in a lot of ways that I think could be really interesting as far as facilitating the mechanics of these kinds of things. I would love to see a remake of this movie.

SPEAKER_01 43:04

As long as it doesn't get like too perverted from its natural form, like not too far in the silly, funny, not too far into gore where we miss some. I don't know. It would be dangerous. I mean, I guess all remakes are quite dangerous, honestly, but I'd be interested.

SPEAKER_00 43:20

You're absolutely right, Ryan. There is so much in here that can add so much more value on a second watch. But what we're gonna do tonight in lieu of fact or fiction, I want to take a stroll down Easter Egg Lane. Now I want to unpack some of the references we get so you can prime yourself for your next rewatch. Now, I'd love to hear of any that you all know of or things that you caught when you're watching this movie. You know, for example, Paris, you shared that Zelda Rubin scene is from Poltergeist, and she is a horror icon. We obviously have Robert England as Freddy. Is there anything else that you picked up on naturally, or even if you're not quite sure where to place it from, you felt like this might be something.

SPEAKER_02 44:00

I do want to say that I've famously never even seen Poltergeist, but I am familiar with Zelda's legend.

SPEAKER_00 44:05

Is Eugene's wife somebody? She's not somebody, but her name is Jamie, a la Jamie Lee Curtis.

SPEAKER_02 44:11

Okay, yes. And at some point there's like the Curtis family. Isn't somebody Curtis?

SPEAKER_00 44:16

Yes, Kelly Curtis? Yes. And ironically, Jamie Lee Curtis has a sister named Kelly Curtis.

SPEAKER_02 44:21

Fantastic. I did c I did pick up on the Kelly the on the Curtis of it all because I was like, oh, I bet that's a reference to Jamie Lee Curtis.

SPEAKER_00 44:26

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 44:27

Because everything always comes back to Halloween.

SPEAKER_00 44:29

Absolutely. Now, if you recall in the beginning of the film, we have Taylor who is taking us on a tour of different areas. Was there anything that you noticed there as she was talking about Jason, Freddie, and Michael?

SPEAKER_02 44:41

I mean, she's explicitly said those locations like Elm Street, Chris. Oh, ooh, Elm Street, that person. There was a person there who was grumpy and went inside of the house. He was somebody probably.

SPEAKER_00 44:52

You're right. The homeowner of that home was none other than Kane Hotter, who was made famous in many horror films, including Hatchet, but also playing Jason Voorhees. Ooh.

SPEAKER_02 45:02

So now Jason lives on Elm Street.

SPEAKER_00 45:04

They tied him in. Yeah. He also visited Elm Street in Freddy vs. Jason.

SPEAKER_02 45:08

A film I know all too well.

SPEAKER_00 45:10

Yeah. That's one of the references to a nightmare on Elm Street, aside from Robert England being in this movie. But in the scene where they're scoping out a survivor group and they're talking about the different types of survivors that you need, there's actually three little girls playing jump rope. And that is a reference to the original Nightmare on Elm Street. Cute. One, two, Freddy's coming for you. Mm-hmm. Now there's also a greater note to the shining. Does anything in here give you the shining energy?

SPEAKER_02 45:37

Well, there's an axe.

SPEAKER_00 45:38

That's Yeah, but an axe to a door.

SPEAKER_02 45:42

Yeah, The Shining. Was Jack Nicholson in this movie?

SPEAKER_00 45:48

So from The Shining, we actually have Robert England's character, Doc Halloran. Doc was the name of Danny Torrance, his nickname, Doc, and Halloran was Dick Halloran, another character in the movie. Additionally, there's the song that's playing in The Shining. When we see the photo of Jack Nicholson in that picture towards the end of the film, that song is playing while Leslie is applying his makeup.

SPEAKER_02 46:12

Ooh.

SPEAKER_01 46:13

So basically they just named everyone in this movie after somebody that's been in a horror movie.

SPEAKER_00 46:18

Kind of. And speaking of names of people who've been in horror movies, this isn't necessarily actually it's kind of people who've been in horror movies. Leslie's real surname is revealed to be Mancuso. So there are a couple people who are tied to this, right? One is Frank Mancuso Jr., who is a producer for several Friday the 13th movies. But there's also Nick Mancuso, who is one of the uncredited actors who portrayed Billy in Black Christmas 1974.

SPEAKER_02 46:45

Oh. Okay, deep cut.

SPEAKER_00 46:47

And there's also the intention. It's never explicitly stated in the film, but Eugene is supposed to be an older version of Billy from Black Christmas.

SPEAKER_01 46:55

I was wondering, I felt like he needed to be somebody, but they didn't make it anything like specific that I could tell really.

SPEAKER_00 47:02

Now, is there anything in here that gave you Halloween energy?

SPEAKER_02 47:05

Oh, I mean Robert Engelin's character was obviously Dr. Loomis.

SPEAKER_00 47:10

Yeah. Particularly his wardrobe, absolutely. But there's also in the beginning, Taylor is standing in front of the Rabbit in Red Lounge. There's that sign. Dr. Loomis found that matchbook in the car from the beginning, and then again by the dead mechanic. This is really a game for people like you, Chris.

unknown 47:27

I know.

SPEAKER_02 47:28

This movie was made for Chris by Chris.

SPEAKER_00 47:30

Truly. Have either of you seen Hellraiser?

SPEAKER_02 47:33

No.

SPEAKER_00 47:33

No, that's a Mac movie. But you've played against Pinhead in Dead by Daylight, Paris.

SPEAKER_02 47:39

Yes. He has a long flowing coat. You know that box? And that little box, yes.

SPEAKER_00 47:43

Yes, the little box is in this film. It's in Eugene's house on an end table.

SPEAKER_02 47:47

Ooh, that's a fun little piece to have.

SPEAKER_00 47:49

We also have a tie to the Evil Dead. So again, at Eugene's house, the car that's parked out front is the same color make and model as Sam Raimi's, which he used in The Evil Dead and those movies.

SPEAKER_02 48:02

It's a love letter.

SPEAKER_01 48:03

The specifics. Everything in this movie feels so intentional. Everything.

SPEAKER_00 48:08

Now there is another tie to another film that we've watched recently, and this one is a little bit more obvious, but Leslie has two pets. He has two turtles. Their names are Church and Zoe. Now, Zoe's not one that we would know, but it's a dog from Pet Cemetery too. But Church is also the name of the cat in the original Pet Cemetery and the remake.

SPEAKER_02 48:28

Oh my god, and they were pets.

SPEAKER_00 48:29

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 48:30

That's cute.

SPEAKER_01 48:30

Oh my god, the pets were named after pets.

SPEAKER_02 48:33

But also, wait, that specific scene when he was like, okay, now let's go to my house. I was like, was this not his house? Was this just like somebody's house that he broke into to film this opening segment? Because I didn't realize where we were at at first.

SPEAKER_01 48:45

When he was talking about those turtles, that was the moment where I was like, oh, he's just going off. He was like, I just keep they won't die. I keep leaving them and not feeding them. They won't die.

SPEAKER_00 48:56

It's absolutely hilarious. But as I mentioned, I'm sure there's so much more to unpack. And then I'm excited to hear what you all as listeners have discovered throughout your time and your experience with this film. But for now, there you have it. Behind the mask, the rise of Leslie Vernon has earned two slashes and one hack. Which is actually a similar ratio to when we first covered this movie. Now we've certainly had a robust discussion here, but it doesn't end here by any means. We want to know what you think. We want to know where you stand. Did you think Leslie was a drag? Did you also agree that Taylor was forgettable in lackluster? Let us know. You can join in on the conversation by hanging out with us for free over in our Discord. You can click the link in the show notes to sign up.

SPEAKER_02 49:36

If you've enjoyed listening to this episode, consider becoming one of our patrons like Naomi. Visit patreon.com slash hackerslash to enjoy more of the show with early access, extended episodes, bonus content, and live shows.

SPEAKER_00 49:48

We'll see you next time, folks, and remember, run like a motherfucker and don't stop till the sun comes up. Adios.