264: Braid (2018)

SPEAKER_03 0:04

Try my uh olive gelatin loaf.

SPEAKER_01 0:11

Greetings and salutations, and welcome to Hack for Slash. If you're joining us again, welcome back. May I have your ticket, please? If this is your first time listening, welcome to the party. We are a horror movie review podcast dedicated to telling you whether a movie is a hack, a total joke, a waste of time, or a slash.

SPEAKER_02 0:28

Totally killer, pun intended.

SPEAKER_01 0:30

We believe horror is for everyone, and as such, we're rating these movies with the perspective we've gained from our varying walks of life and the flavors of fear we fancy most. My name is Chris, I'm your friendly neighborhood slasher enthusiast. This week I'm joined by the Superfly Space Guy Mac.

SPEAKER_02 0:42

You've taken a lot of PCP, like a lot.

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And the classic horror connoisseur Sean.

SPEAKER_05 0:47

You always come back, you old witch.

SPEAKER_01 0:50

The people have spoken and our patrons have decided which movie we're covering this week. Before we get down to business though, we have some follow-up.

SPEAKER_02 0:57

Let's follow up on a movie. Last month we went to the theater, not me, everyone else, to see Knock at the Cabin, and while we universally slashed it, we wanted to know what our community thought of it. The poll results are in, and 26% hacked it while 74% slashed it.

SPEAKER_01 1:13

That feels right.

SPEAKER_02 1:13

That feels like the score deserves Well, we've got some comments from our listeners. First up is Ashley. It's an objective slash, but it left me feeling pretty bad, and I'm still not over it. So a hack.

SPEAKER_05 1:24

Hmm. I mean, you know, there were some good and bad parts.

SPEAKER_01 1:27

I usually feel that way about things that make me sad.

SPEAKER_02 1:29

Well, I've yet to see it, so the these comments right here are gonna tell me whether or not I'm gonna watch it sooner or later. But I'm still gonna watch it eventually.

SPEAKER_05 1:36

Yep, yep.

SPEAKER_02 1:37

Veronica says, beautiful story. I cried. Dave Bautista's performance was perfect. I will probably watch it again for the feels.

SPEAKER_05 1:43

Oh I was here for Dave's performance.

SPEAKER_01 1:46

Hell yeah. Especially with the feels. That's great.

SPEAKER_02 1:50

Caleb said, I love it. It's the best movie of 2023 so far. Whoa.

SPEAKER_01 1:54

Let the record show he said this before Scream Six came out.

SPEAKER_02 1:58

Okay.

SPEAKER_05 1:58

We'll let it slide.

SPEAKER_01 1:59

We're gonna need some follow-up, Caleb. Let us know. Knock at the cap in better or worse than Scream Six.

SPEAKER_02 2:04

Scoliosis and Psychosis says his third best movie, whoever said old is a bad movie, is objectively wrong.

SPEAKER_01 2:10

I have yet to see it, so I have I have no room to opine.

SPEAKER_05 2:14

I don't remember it enough to challenge that. Well, I see old people.

SPEAKER_02 2:17

Now Diana says, great ensemble all around, but Dave Batista stole the show.

SPEAKER_01 2:21

Oh yeah. A lot of love for him. Honestly, I think Bink said that in that episode in particular, that Dave Batista is probably the best like wrestler to actor transition we've had. And I think if I see more of him that that gives the caliber of that performance and knock at the cabin, I I would agree.

SPEAKER_05 2:40

Definitely.

SPEAKER_02 2:40

Well, Rob says it doesn't hit the way the book does, but it's entertaining enough to get a soft slash.

SPEAKER_01 2:45

I think that's more than he said about Scream 6.

SPEAKER_02 2:47

Yeah. Facts. And Alan says expectations were low because of M. Night Shyamalan, but I actually enjoyed the twists and turns of the movie.

SPEAKER_01 2:54

Man, what must it be like to be M. Night Shyamalan when you used to have such a stellar reputation and now everybody just like, eh, I'm not looking forward to this.

SPEAKER_05 3:03

Well, you you know, you gotta keep performing at a certain caliber when you when you get yourself known for doing wild things and crazy twists.

SPEAKER_02 3:12

That is true. I've been a huge fan of many of his movies, not all of them, but many of them. So the expectations I feel like are are either very low for folks or the opposite, very high, and then they get disappointed and then they become very low. So just do mediocre your entire career and you won't uh you won't have any problems.

SPEAKER_01 3:28

You can only go up from here.

SPEAKER_02 3:30

That's right. Now, lastly, Gabe says, Queer Dad here, I cried. Beautiful but haunting story of self-sacrifice, love, and the power of people and their words.

SPEAKER_01 3:38

Oof. You know what? See, that's the comment I'm here for. I love when we can see ourselves in the movies on the big screen and to be able to have like such emotional resonance with this movie, that's that's really special.

SPEAKER_05 3:50

That's what it's all about.

SPEAKER_02 3:51

Now you can watch this movie from home, so you can pay for that that super cool rental, or you can actually buy it. So check it out if you haven't seen it. If you want to share your thoughts on the movie or join the conversation happening in our Discord, we've got a link in our show notes, so you can do just that. And finally, we want to welcome a new patron, John. John, welcome to the family. We love you, we value you, and uh, we hope to hear from you in Discord. Welcome, John. And that's our follow-up.

SPEAKER_01 4:15

So Gabe described Knock at the Cabin as both haunting and beautiful, and I think that might actually be the theme tonight because we're discussing a film that has been described the same way. This month's Slasher Pick nominees featured three psychological films spanning from 2008 to 2018. While all had strong arguments for them, the winner came down to a film which features three women with varying intentions who are living in the fantasy world they created as kids. Only their game now has deadly implications in their adulthood. This week, after winning 47% of the overall patron vote, we're finally talking about Braid.

SPEAKER_05 4:52

Yeah, so this movie was nominated by Taylor, who has been campaigning for this for quite some time. She says, This movie gets me every time. It's haunting and beautiful. It's like a dream where you're never quite sure where you are or what's going on. It's a female-driven psychological thriller with an incredible cast. I have been dying to hear you guys discuss this movie and see if you pick up on things I haven't.

SPEAKER_01 5:17

Well, it sounds like it's time to make good on Taylor's Wish, folks. Who's seen this one before?

SPEAKER_02 5:21

Well, definitely not me. I had not heard of it except for the fact that Taylor was recommending it to us.

SPEAKER_05 5:27

Yeah, I knew absolutely nothing about this movie. I had not watched a trailer for this movie. I had not even heard of this movie before. In fact, just by hearing the name Braid, I could have sworn this was a Disney movie of some kind.

SPEAKER_01 5:40

I had only heard of this movie from Taylor, and then again, of course, once the people came through in Discord, folks, this was like the people's champion, honestly, of our patron nominations. Everyone hopped in, started watching this movie and unpacking it, and I think it was honestly that spark that uh really kicked off the revolution in our voting because the race was really tight until the end, and I know that a lot of folks started hopping on to vote and support this movie because of the experience they had watching it and discussing it in our movie forum. Now, going into this, knowing it's Madeline Brewer, I expected this to be unnerving and have like stellar performances, but also based on the nomination, I expected it to be twisted, so I didn't even spend a lot of mental energy trying to think ahead or analyze things deeply. I wanted this to be an experience where I just rolled with the punches. What were you all expecting?

SPEAKER_02 6:35

Well, you know, both of us obviously did not really know much about it. So I thought to myself, I I'm gonna watch the trailer because I want to know what I'm getting into. And really the the takeaway I had from the trailer was this is gonna be weird as hell. That's yeah, really what I was expecting. It is like I just thought it's gonna be a weird one.

SPEAKER_05 6:53

Yeah, that's fair. I, you know, just reading the synopsis, it didn't give you too much, right? It basically said something along the lines of two wanted women, you know, trying to rob their friend who lives in a fantasy world they created together and like playing a deadly game of make-believe, right? Like based on that, I was expecting this to be for sure a psychological horror movie that is going to make you question what you're watching. Is it real? Is it not real? But that's really about it. I was literally going off the synopsis, didn't watch a full trailer, maybe saw some clips in passing when I pulled up IMDB or whatever, but that is literally it. So I would that's that was my expectation going into this one. I was here for the ride.

SPEAKER_01 7:38

Yeah. And what a ride it was, folks. Listen, I I started out intrigued immediately because of the way the film opens. I honestly wrote in my notes, second bullet. I see why Taylor likes this. Because really, my interest was piqued with three women with shovels covered in blood, burying a body. What a way to start a movie. That's how you kick things off. From there, my interest mostly continued, but there really was a little befuddlement peppered in here and there, a little bit of salt bay action with some confusion and a little bit of like, what do we have here? What's going on there? Wait, what? We'll unpack how that actually transformed my perspective on the movie as we go.

SPEAKER_02 8:19

Yeah, I think Chris, you know how I feel. I texted you one basically one line while watching this movie, and it was WTF is this movie. No punctuation. And that really sums up how I felt while watching it. The entire movie, there's some really interesting storytelling going on. And so you're you're like moving between these scenes, and some of the scenes are just like, okay, this is traditional storytelling. I like this part. Oh, this is kind of gritty, I like this part, and then you're like, oh, what the hell? I have no idea what I'm watching. And then you kind of get an idea, and as soon as you think you've got it, slap to the face. You got it wrong. We're changing things up. It's not exactly what you thought it would be. And so it is definitely, it is definitely a ride.

SPEAKER_05 8:56

Yeah, that's that's 100% fair. Uh the scenes, you know, they they made sense, they didn't make sense. Like it just the way that it flowed was chaotic in a way. Uh, between the cinematography and the way they shot some of the scenes, along with like the overall tone of the movie, I was getting a lot of different feelings in this movie. Uh, it reminded me of some of the feelings and vibes that I got from movies from long ago. Movies like 13, SLC Punk, Fear and Loathing in Las Vegas. Like I was getting some wild vibes from watching this movie. Not to say that all these movies are the same, but just the way they were shot and the filming and all of that, and so many strange camera angles, whether it's slanted a bit or completely upside down, it just never let you feel comfortable. And not always in a good way, let's just say that, but it was just, it was just so um unnerving at times. There's when you think you've got it, like you said, Mac, you don't have it, right? And the whole film felt like a psychedelic acid trip gone wrong.

SPEAKER_01 9:59

Oof, psychologic acid trip. We've talked about in the past, I don't have any experience with like getting high or anything like that. So typically when it happens in a movie, I just can't relate, right? So it it really kind of detracts from that experience. And I think this is one that really didn't go as far off the beaten path as I may have expected it to, especially even when we get to like the psycho psychedelic trips. I think based on my expectations going into it, I was actually surprised how easy it was to follow initially because I was I was there for the first 50-ish minutes. I was in it. I was following along, I'm like, oh, where's this supposed to be confusing? Where's the what the fuck of it all? But then the last 30 minutes had 100% of what the fuck of it all. It was really just me trying to keep up, and it reminded me of when I was doing the swim test in the Navy and I was just really failing the part where you had to tread water, and I felt like I was just drowning in confusion for a little bit. When it was over, I just had to shut off the movie and sit in silence for a few minutes for that last scene we get to actually click. I I legitimately I turned off my lights and I just sat there staring at my screen, paused. It's like, what is happening? And while I don't have many disappointments with the movie, I think I am just a little bit disappointed in myself for not having gotten it sooner.

SPEAKER_05 11:23

You had to let it simmer.

SPEAKER_02 11:25

I did not have to let things simmer. I was heavily disappointed in the dizzying camera work. This is a movie that is not made for Vertiger. Let me tell you that. Those those angles you talked about, I think they can be really fun, but there was just so much movement, so many upside down and twists and all this kind of stuff, and it was just a lot for me. And I always complain about it, so it maybe it's not a surprise for people who've listened before and know that I cannot stand crazy camera stuff, but it was just it was a lot. I mean, especially when we go completely upside down and move into a space, it was just a bit too much.

SPEAKER_05 12:00

I could see that for sure. Um, I I knew that this one was going to be a psychological horror movie, but I was actually surprised by just how complex the movie really was. In fact, I was actually greatly surprised by how at times none of these scenes seemed relevant to one another at first, but by the third act, it all kind of, I don't know, worked in some strange sort of way. Maybe because the end brought it back to life. I don't know. Um, I I was, however, disappointed by how hard to follow the film was at times, especially. I I mean, you said Chris, you were following along the first half. I feel like things didn't start clicking to me until the second half of the film. Um, but you know, to each their own, I was disappointed in the fact that I just didn't get to see this film twice before talking about it because I feel like this is a film that you need to see more than once to get all the little details out of it.

SPEAKER_01 12:55

So here's the thing when when you look at the idea of watching this movie a lot, I know that a lot of our patrons have discussed okay, I have to watch it several times because I pick up on something new every time, and I for sure agree with that, but I don't know that I have the mental stamina to be able to do that because I feel like I wanted to watch it once, sit on it for a while, let it bake, let it simmer, and just really let my feelings kind of flow out from there. I feel like this is a movie where like a little bit goes a long way, you know. But I think for me, something that really stands out is how this movie was very trippy or very um concerning in some ways, but I think there's enough separation between you and what's happening on screen that I didn't personally feel a lot of buy-in to be scared. I didn't really feel like I had this concern of like, oh my gosh, what's gonna happen here? Oh my gosh, is this gonna happen to me one day? Like, there are different ways to be scared. I just didn't find anything in this movie even remotely frightening.

SPEAKER_02 14:06

Yeah, this is this is one of those where you can make that claim that it's that it's more like psychological thriller than it is horror. I mean, it's obviously gruesome in in parts and and got some gore and stuff that we'll talk about, but um I I don't know that it feels uh scary in any way to me at all. So I I would definitely agree with you there.

SPEAKER_05 14:24

Yeah, this this was not a scary film by any means. This film had no real jump scares or really any kind of traditional method of instilling fear in its audience. Uh rather, it gave you the insight into a mentally unstable person's mind, and maybe that's the real terror here. I I don't know. I mean, we'll unpack it further, but I think what it lacks in in fright and like scares in the traditional sense is really just the the frightening aspect of mental health, in a way.

SPEAKER_01 14:58

Yeah, traumatic brain injuries are really the real thing to be afraid of here. Like, no joke. It's check on your pupil, you know what I mean? Protect your minds, take concussion seriously. This shit seems wild. But the other thing that stands out to me is the ending of this movie in the sense that it it's not one that I really felt ready for. Like the the movie kind of unfolds when I got to the 50-ish minute point, I was like, all right, cool, there's 30 minutes left. What the fuck is gonna happen? Then literally everything happens. It felt like it was it was all happening so quickly and it was coming so fast that when the end credits roll, I was like, oh wait, what? This is it? This is how it happened. I'm not mad at it, but I wasn't ready for it.

SPEAKER_02 15:42

Interesting. I had kind of a different reaction because I think I think the end of the movie, like it has that really quick build, right? And I to me it was it was answering questions. And so it was like making making sense at a lot of stuff that might have happened, especially right before the end, because we have so much going on, there's so many questions, so much chaos. And then we get to the end, for me it was just like, oh, confirming, okay, this is what I thought would happen, and you're telling me for sure this is what's happening. And so I actually found now it wasn't like super duper clear, right? Like it wasn't like, hey, you know, text on screen, this is exactly what happened, but I think for me it answered yes, your your thoughts were correct about where this was going. And and so um it was not the typical ending that we've seen in a lot of horror movies we've watched recently. Um, but I think for me it was at least like a way to wrap things up.

SPEAKER_05 16:32

Yeah, I think the the I really enjoyed the ending. There there was a lot to unpack there. It's not your typical cookie cutter ending, it leaves room to breathe, to think, to wonder. Is it this? Is it that? Like it's it's the kind of movie that gives you enough to be satisfied, but also gives you some little tidbits that leave you wondering if there is more underneath the surface of this message. And those, uh to your point, Chris, earlier, when you let it simmer, you start to think more and more about the film, and you start to notice more and unravel more, and it really takes a whole different tone the more you think about it. To me, might be an unpopular take here, but you know, this made me think just as much as Skinamarink made me think.

SPEAKER_01 17:16

Wow.

SPEAKER_05 17:16

Yeah, there was a lot to unpack here. I mean, it gives you a lot more than Skinamarink does. Let's start there, but there is a lot of underlying messaging and things and little tidbits here that it gives you that I feel like you can really think about more and more after you watch this film that kind of gets you to the point where you kind of want to, you know, talk about it with other people and see what they got out of it and and really converse about a movie. And it's like it's like one of those types of movies that Skinamar Ink did. Well, I remember after watching Skinamarink, I talked to a bunch of people at work with you guys, with other friends about what they got. Did they like it? Did they not? And this is kind of what this movie did for me.

SPEAKER_01 17:52

Okay, so I'm definitely not surprised by the fact that there's a lot to unpack, right? For sure, this movie gives you a lot to chew on. It's kind of like eating a piece of steak that you just kind of have to really work through for a while, but not in a bad way. You know, that sounds unpleasant overall, but I think what's interesting to me is that for you it's struck the same way, or even really like in a similar way as Skinemarink, because I just remember how much that unlocked for you. That's wild.

SPEAKER_05 18:17

Yeah. Well, I'm not saying it unlocked the same amount of like emotion and fear as Skinner Ink did. It just it unlocked the same amount of intrigue, just really wanting to talk about the intricacies of the film and the story and the direction and what did you get? Because I think that we can talk about it more, but I do think that there's at least a couple of different theories for this film. I don't think it has to be as straightforward as you think it is.

SPEAKER_01 18:41

Yeah, no, I I would agree with that. And I think there's so much that we have to unpack in the spoiler zone, so let's start making our way there. Now, before we actually rate this movie, Sean, how would you describe the gore score?

SPEAKER_05 18:51

There isn't enough gore here to really raise this gore score too high. There is blood, don't get me wrong, but it's not too much. There are some violent scenes, but none of them show you too much, just some blood, and sometimes not even that. I would have to give this one a low, maybe medium low, but probably low gore score.

SPEAKER_01 19:09

And what about the animal report?

SPEAKER_02 19:11

Oh, it's all good in the hood. We are safe this week.

SPEAKER_01 19:14

Well, let's go ahead and get into our ratings then. Braid 2018, as nominated by Taylor and chosen by the rest of our patrons, was it a hack or a slash? And I think I'm actually gonna hop in here first because there's so much to say about this movie. I think the majority of which will come in the second half. There's so much to say about this movie, so much that I think will actually come in the second half. I think my rating for this can be really, really simple. I wondered for a little bit, going into this movie, why this would be called braid, especially since there are so many other titles for this movie out there. But when you look at it, this is a metaphor for a few different things in this movie. What is a braid, even, right? It's a hairstyle, but it's a it's a hairstyle done what way? There's so many different types of braids. The braid actually has so many different cultural connotations throughout history, uh back in ancient cultures, right?

SPEAKER_05 20:07

Back in my day.

SPEAKER_01 20:08

So there's a lot to pull from there. But realistically, when you think of a braid, right, in its most simplest form, it's taking three things and interlacing them and forming something, right? This movie is a twisted tale where these three women are literally and figuratively braided together. Sometimes literally in moments in the movie, but their lives are intrinsically tied together. But from a more broader global perspective, this movie also uses braiding in its storytelling. This movie takes three almost like three or more different realities or potential uh uh of what's happening and weaves that together. Look, there's so much to feel, there's so much to be confused by, there's so much to admire, there's so much to unpack. But what I think about how I would write this movie, it's really stepping back and think about how I felt when it finally clicked. And for me, that click gave me a slash.

SPEAKER_02 21:11

I I think it's a very subjective film, you know. There's there's there's so much on screen that I can see how it would take you. Like it's not one of those things where you watch it, and as you're watching, you're thinking, like, oh, it's obviously this or that. Like you have to think about it a little bit before you can rate it. So there's absolutely, I think, the right way to think about it. But for me, it's a hack. Definitely a hack. I I just did not enjoy this movie at all. First, thank you, dear filmmakers, for the dizziness. Spin that old camera around. Why not? Secondly, it's not a joke at all. But goodness, I'd like my hour and a half back. This felt like trying to translate someone's drug induced philosophical discussion into a film. It just never really clicked for me. And maybe I'm too boring and not creative enough to enjoy high high concept horror, but it was just a bad time for me.

SPEAKER_05 21:56

You're not into this elevated horror?

SPEAKER_02 21:58

Yeah, look, there's some elevated horror. That I'm like really into. And absolutely, my hack does not mean this is a bad film, right? So I think some films are objectively bad. This is not one of those. This is a subjective experience, absolutely. But for me, it was a bad time.

SPEAKER_05 22:13

Yeah, I get what you're saying there for sure because I was really on the fence with this one at first after watching the film. There's a lot of really good stuff here, but the delivery definitely felt chaotic and sometimes not done super well. The concept was amazing, the acting was superb, but it did have its faults. Like the movie tries way too hard to hold information and be mysterious. Um the twist or the reveal was really good. The ending I absolutely loved, but did it make up for the rest of the movie after letting it simmer? I think that it did. Like I feel like there is more to see, more to catch in this movie the more you watch it. The fact that I only saw this movie one time and I'm impressed enough to want to check it out again so soon. I mean, that's gotta count for something, right? This movie starts off pretty average, nothing too crazy going on, right? Like, I mean, there's some it's the way that it's portrayed is chaotic, but it doesn't seem too off the walls, and then shit gets weird. And each scene that follows the one before it gets weirder and weirder. It feels like you are watching the mind of a psychopath unfold, almost like the movie itself has gone mad. I really enjoyed a lot about this movie. I enjoyed the story, the cinematography, and the way they shot each scene at times, and then at times it felt chaotic and like off the walls and lost me. But the colors, the lighting they used throughout the movie, it wasn't your typical horror film, more on the psychological thriller side of things, but I still think it's a slash for me.

SPEAKER_01 23:50

Well, there you have it, folks. Braid from 2018 has earned two slashes and one hack. Now you can find this movie streaming online, so go check out the link in our show notes to where you can currently find it, and then join us in the second half so we can unpack this movie together. We'll see you in a bit.

SPEAKER_00 24:22

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SPEAKER_05 25:27

Okay, here's the thing. Do we know for sure that there is any actual death in this movie? I feel like the deaths or kills in this movie are up for your interpretation.

SPEAKER_01 25:38

That is, I think, a fair assessment. I think when you look at it, within the runtime, we see a death happen. Now, narratively, is that death real? I mean, there are three pretend suicides that we get later on, but yeah, who's to say?

SPEAKER_02 25:55

I it's uh this is a tough one because I I I think I don't think any of the deaths are real in this movie. I don't think any of them are. I don't buy it. I think all of them are part of their uh imagination land.

SPEAKER_01 26:09

Once again, it was all a dream. Used to read Word Up magazine.

SPEAKER_05 26:13

Yeah, I think it's a fair assessment. I agree. I don't think any of the deaths in this movie actually happened, except for maybe what's mentioned with Daphne poisoning the grandparents. That maybe could have happened. I'm not sure. But then again, who knows? That's the beauty of this film. It it just keeps you thinking. But whether or not the kills were real, can we talk about how brutal the detective's kill was in this film?

SPEAKER_01 26:44

Oh man. Wow. First off, the dismemberment. Second, the really incredible way that she once confidently wielded the meat tenderizer to get the game going, and then reluctantly grabbed it to participate in his alleged murder. Stellar has a lot of blood.

SPEAKER_05 27:04

Yeah. Just the acting that happened, the way that they shot that film, right? Like him like interrupting them, playing the game of doctor, but they're like reversing it, right? Like onto Daphne because she's saying that she's pregnant and they're going into this emergency surgery. He catches them, and then all of a sudden Daphne wakes up and starts stabbing him, and then Tilda starts jumping in. But Batula is like horrified by what's happening, and she does such a great job showcasing that emotion on her face, and the blood is everywhere, and then they hand her the mallet or the meat tenderizer or whatever the hell that was, and then suddenly she jumps right in.

SPEAKER_01 27:49

It's giving I'm down to clown, but not at first. It's gonna warm up to it.

SPEAKER_02 27:54

I think this was definitely the point where it's it's the reveal to us that they're that they're in on this game and it's still the game. Because initially it seems like the story is so far that they're not bought into this, right? That they're like, you know, having to do this to get their money or whatever. When they start going along with it that hardcore, it's like, wait, what what's happening? Like, why are they doing this? Why is she getting so into this now? And then it's like, oh it's revealed over the next few minutes there that the whole thing is a game, the whole thing is imaginary from the very first scene in the movie.

SPEAKER_04 28:27

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 28:28

Okay, but I have an actual discrepancy with this non-death, and I realize that every I think criticism I have of this movie has no bearing because it's all fucking imaginary. I I get that, right? Like, let me just say that, but I think things could have hit maybe a little bit harder had we followed a couple little things. Like one, ma'ams, ladies, you're dismembering someone and you're gonna dig a five-inch grave. Come on. That shit was shallow as fuck. Shallowest grave I've ever seen in a movie.

SPEAKER_05 29:03

Well, you don't have to work super hard when the body's not actually real, you know?

SPEAKER_01 29:07

Yes, but you know what? If you're gonna commit to the bit, fucking commit to the bit.

SPEAKER_02 29:11

True. At the same time, though, maybe they thought like because it was such small pieces, they wouldn't have to have such a large hole. Yeah. But I mean, that that death though was the most brutal of anything shown on the screen. Because the other things we get, you know, we get some mutilation, of course, especially with the razor. Yeah. We get the hanging, we get the self-poisoning.

SPEAKER_01 29:30

The cigarette burns.

SPEAKER_02 29:31

The cigarette burns on the arm.

SPEAKER_01 29:33

Oh, yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 29:34

But the murder was definitely the most brutal because it was so quick and it was still at the point where we thought that he was real life. True. Although, although when we were watching him on screen in the flashback, I was like, man, that's an old cop car. When he shows up in the current day with that old cop car, I'm thinking something is wrong.

SPEAKER_05 29:52

Yeah, there's a lot of little details. This is what I'm talking about. There's a lot of little details in this film that give little hints as to what's actually happening in the film, like what's real and what's not. And you know, you said that you noticed the old cop car, and then there was also a scene where it shows children's drawings, like crayon drawings that were depicting the shit that was happening in the movie, presumably present day. And so that kind of alludes to the fact that this is all a game that they've played before.

SPEAKER_01 30:25

Yeah, but you know, two comments here. One, never underestimate the power of a childhood drawing prophecy. The children have been manifesting visions of the future from their fucking Crayolas since the dawn of time. So while a hundred percent you have a great point and it makes sense, also yeah, maybe I wouldn't have noticed that. But the fucking old cop car absolutely was a a warning sign, right? Especially since we all know the police are well funded enough to get a slightly better car, even if it's still beat up and janky in comparison to like match the vibe of the town where they live. We all know that he wasn't gonna be drawing the same fucking car 20 years later.

SPEAKER_02 31:05

True. And I know that there's clues that like otherwise, like pointing to the fact of that he's not real, which is great and everything, but that was I think the most standout one to me was just like that does not add up. I'm sorry. But their mutilations I think felt more brutal than than even like the deaths that they show us for you know, the suicides later, like cutting like Joker style, like literally, do you want to know how I got these scars that legit happened? And and the slicing near the eyes and everything, that was pretty wicked.

SPEAKER_01 31:37

Yeah. Yeah. I really would have loved to see those scars just always be there. So again, it's all imaginary, it's all pretend, etc. But also, I feel like it almost would have been a little bit more demented if they just continued to actually hurt themselves in this game of imagination, and I think that would have given it a little bit more stakes for me.

SPEAKER_05 31:55

Yeah, that I mean, so that that is an interesting point right there. I I know that throughout the film you see this self-mutilation or these wounds, even getting hit by a car or getting hit over the head with baseball bats, but then none of those wounds persist. I don't know. What were your thoughts on the cigarette burns? Do you think that was real or not real?

SPEAKER_01 32:18

I mean, it's tough to say because on the one hand, nothing is fucking real, but on the other hand, that seems to be the the penance for breaking a rule in the game.

SPEAKER_05 32:29

Right.

SPEAKER_01 32:29

And I think the structure of the movie implies to me that it is real.

SPEAKER_05 32:33

Yeah, that's my thought process too.

SPEAKER_01 32:35

But I don't know, Madeline Brewer could be like, no, that's just not real, it's all pretend. I'd be like, alright, cool, got it.

SPEAKER_04 32:40

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 32:40

Let me tell you though, that the burns aside, the gore aside, the mutilations aside, something that I really loved in this movie is its use of color. One, when Tilda is high as shit and you see everything in word colors, it actually looked like some very basic like hue, lightness, and saturation adjustments you can make in any nonlinear video editor, right? You can do that in Windows Movie Maker, iMovie, Final Cut, Premiere, whatever. You can do it all. But it looked like some of my early experimentation with like, I want to take this shirt and make it blue, but then it turns out a really janky purple. Yeah. But the other element of this is when things cut to black and white, because I enjoy the difference in the filming there. And it seems to happen at first before you realize that everything is fake. It seems to happen anytime there's like a sobering moment, right? So the girls are in this period of like fantasizing about paying off student debt and sorting all these drugs, but then it cuts to black and white when the police show up and everything's like, oh shit, this is real, there's consequences here. Or when Siegel is talking to Daphne and it cuts to black and white when he's asking where they are. How do you know they're missing? And he's pressing her for those details. I absolutely fucking loved that.

SPEAKER_05 33:53

Yeah, the use of color was one of my favorite visuals in the film as well. I mean, all of it. I mean, the the bright colors with Tilda on the acid trip, I thought was just so visually great and stunning to look at. I also really loved the use of the green tones when they're like presumably trying to escape the house in that scene where it's really green and they're holding the lanterns. Like that whole visual was so cool. I don't know if obviously any of you listen to this band, but just because they use so much green, it immediately made me think of typo negative. And they could have put a typo negative song in the background to that, and it probably would have been cool for me. I don't know, but that's just my weird thought process that probably no one's relating to.

SPEAKER_01 34:36

Someone out there is relating to that, Sean. Someone out there. It's just not Macarai.

SPEAKER_05 34:40

Yes, somebody. Right. Some strange person out there.

SPEAKER_01 34:44

Stranger, not a strange person, though.

SPEAKER_02 34:47

No, color color is the thing I wrote down as as well. Because visually there's a lot. It's definitely not the spinning camera angles that we're seeing. But that pink-hued PCP trip we get, that was absolutely stunning. But later on in the film, when we're we're sitting down at a table and we're eating, and there was just blood red stuff on the table. We don't even know what it is yet. Yeah. That was so vivid. It reminded me of Robin Williams playing Peter Pan, and there's all that like imaginary food on the table, and it's like bright colors and random, like who even knows what it is.

SPEAKER_05 35:19

Oh yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 35:20

Gave me that kind of a feeling.

SPEAKER_01 35:22

You know, it's so funny that you say that because we think about that meal that they sit down to when Tilda is tied up. You have so much gelatin on the table. And that does seem very childlike, right? To have a dinner of only sweets. But then the jet the gelatins look so disgusting. It's literally like, hey, take any child and have them draw any random fucking food object. Because wait, is you're telling me gelatin with olives lining the tray is a real thing? Because that sounds disgusting.

SPEAKER_04 35:50

Nothing like some good olive gelatin.

SPEAKER_01 35:53

Ugh. I love olives, but no.

SPEAKER_02 35:54

Also, that that probably is a thing. I'm sure somebody makes that and eats it.

SPEAKER_03 35:59

Oh gosh. Try my uh olive gelatin loaf. Olivo.

SPEAKER_05 36:04

Well, visually also, we can really talk about how visually stunning the house was itself, right? Like, I don't know if pretty is the way to describe the house, but it was very, it was very fun to look at. Like, there was a lot of really like I don't know if it's like I don't know, I'm not really good with like housing styles and stuff, but if I had to guess, it was very Victorian-like. And um, and just the subtle details of it slightly decaying, the cracks in the ceilings and and things like that really was such a cool thing to look at and just little tidbits throughout the film that I really loved. That was another aspect of the visuals outside of the colors in general that I really liked from this movie.

SPEAKER_02 36:46

Yeah, they picked a really good spot to use for it for the setting of this film because it has so much character, just the house itself, and it really lends, I think, to like creating this atmosphere that they're in something they can't get it, like can't get out of.

SPEAKER_01 37:01

You know what? I think the feeling of something that they can't escape really showed up for me in my favorite scene. The house is a bit of a backdrop here, right? But it's really looking back into like the history of not only the house, but the history of the girls. And it's when you get that background information on them as kids, and there's a flashback of Daphne falling out of the tree house.

SPEAKER_04 37:22

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 37:22

What I think is wild about this is the fact that they really specify her lower abdomen has been critically damaged, I doubt she'll ever be able to conceive. Okay, first off, you fell out of a fucking tree, but you're not gonna you're gonna tell me there's nothing wrong with her head at all. She fell straight up on her back. I think when you think about like a traumatic abdomen injury, I would have needed to see so much more for that to be believable. And then I think it really just played more into like the this is all pretend, right? Like that injury may have been real and maybe she is barren and she can't conceive, but that just seemed like a whole crock of shit. That should have been traumatic brain injury all the way.

SPEAKER_05 38:01

Yeah, I think that scene right there is what made me feel like one of the theories would be that she never fully recovered from that fall, like that brain injury. Screw the abdomen shit. Like, yeah, she might have sustained some other injuries, but she had to have gotten a concussion of some kind, some kind of brain trauma that maybe she's not mentally stable. It this could also be all her, thinking all of this shit up in her head. Maybe she still is living in that kind of time warp thinking that she has her two friends or whatever, and they're all I don't know. I don't know. There's a lot of different avenues to think about, but that scene specifically right there started taking me down the wild path of figuring out what all this means.

SPEAKER_01 38:49

For sure. And I want to be clear, it's not even just that they didn't mention a brain injury or a head injury in any way in the hospital, because when you think about like the time that this was happening, how many years ago it was, etc. Sure. But it's also the reality that there was literally no other injury except to for her abdomen. That just seems ridiculous.

SPEAKER_05 39:08

Yeah, I'm not buying that.

SPEAKER_02 39:10

The the trial scene was my favorite scene though, because I really enjoyed the things that later on we find out are all fake anyway, but like the introductory scene, really enjoyed that. The train, that whole sequence, enjoyed that. And then we have this flashback, and I always hate flashbacks, it's just not my thing. But this one I think was actually a pretty good one here. I I loved seeing them as little girls giving us that mirror, showing them, showing us the fact that like they did this stuff when they were little kids and now it's still with them. Really, that should have shown us what was to come at the end of the movie, which is that's what they're still doing. Um, but I I liked the the two girls having to like corroborate their story, you know, they're like, yeah, let's come up with a story. If they catch us lying, we won't be able to see her again. Right. And so I'm curious like how much truth is sprinkled into these conversations. Because if that whole thing was made up, maybe something like it happened and they really had that strong of a bond, they had to spend their entire lives together. It's just it's really interesting. But if we imagine that that sequence was real, I think that was one of the better scenes in the movie because it felt like just traditional storytelling to me.

SPEAKER_05 40:14

Yeah, that's it's just so crazy to think about. So because at the other end, we we look at the the final scene, right? And you see like the old hand ringing the doorbell, and you see Daphne old cooking in the kitchen, and that leads me to believe that maybe, yeah, all three of them are real and they've just been living in this house, living out this make-believe fantasy for however many years. That contradicts everything that I initially thought of of this all just being Daphne and her making everything up.

SPEAKER_01 40:46

Or she is still making everything up even when she's 70.

SPEAKER_05 40:49

It's true. Yeah, you don't know. It's true. That's what I love about this film. So one of my favorite scenes was specifically the sequence of scenes of them all committing suicide, but specifically the one where uh Tilda is bleeding out in the bathtub with her head hanging upside down. I mean, it was visually really striking, like it was such a really good shot. Like it was a good the frame of everything, her head upside down, the blood, the red really popped, the the lighting in that scene. I don't know what it was. Like that one's just like stuck as a mental, like permanent image in my mind. I just really loved that from the film. And and the other scene that I really, really, really enjoyed was immediately after that scene where they're like sitting down and and eating dinner, and then it starts to feel like they've all just kind of like gone mad in a way, like they're all just completely just diving right into this game, into these roles. And you know, Petula is doing the self-mutilation with the shaving and the straight razor, and they've got the opera playing and it's chaotic. I mean, that was such an effective like ensemble of scenes. It was so cool. I loved I loved that one so much.

SPEAKER_01 42:03

Man, those are some really good ones, but I think what powers all of those scenes is just the absolutely stellar performances we get from every woman in this movie. It's honestly mind-blowing. And I think back to when we last saw Madeline Brewer on this podcast, right? That that was with Cam. And thinking about the incredible performance she gave there, to know that this was done so close in time with that film. I am absolutely just astounded by her talent. But something that I've been wondering is actually what what do you think it says about Petula that she continues to try to escape? Who is the real aggressor here with the game? Are they all in equal partnership? Is her trying to escape also part of the game? Or is it something where Daphne is more of the instigator, or is it actually Tilda pulling all the strings?

SPEAKER_05 42:53

It's interesting to think about because you also see clips of Tilda throughout the film being the one that like challenges Daphne a lot. It's Tilda challenging Pachula maybe trying to escape, but is this all just alter egos or different personalities of Daphne and just really showcasing you inside the mind of you know her psyche and just the different personalities trying to fight through?

SPEAKER_02 43:20

Yeah, I think it seems likely that the trying to escape thing is probably part of the game, but in a way that like it it probably relates to however they played when they were kids. Because I think them continuing this on their entire lives, if one of them always, you know, it's like, oh, she always tried to get out of it, tried to always escape from us playing when we were little. And so that's like that's her role now. She always has to be the one that's trying to get away from it, trying to escape, doesn't want to keep playing. And then is she in on it consciously, subconsciously? Is it just her playing the part because that's just what she does? Who knows? You know, questions we'll never get the answers to. But I think when it's revealed that Tilda is like completely aware of what's happening and is playing along, it does seem more likely that she's way more into the game. It seems like she might even be more into the game than Daphne is because she is playing as if she's completely not into the game, but has to be the one to bring them back into it.

SPEAKER_01 44:18

Yeah, it's giving she's a puppeteer.

SPEAKER_02 44:21

Right, right. So it's like, you know, if if when you're playing imagination as as kids, when you're playing pretend when you're doing whatever, and there's a kid who's gonna break character. It's gonna happen. This is the kid who can work in you breaking character it back into the game. It's like breaking the fourth wall. It's like Deadpool level stuff right here. And I think that's Tilda, that's what she's doing is she can use the fact that Petula is breaking breaking character as part of the game.

SPEAKER_05 44:46

Interesting. Yeah. I could see that.

SPEAKER_01 44:48

I think what's interesting to me is considering what is the power dynamic there, but also thinking back to the specific moment where the imaginary detective says to her, in the end, who's gonna protect you from them?

SPEAKER_04 45:00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 45:01

You know what I mean? It's like we're we're we're painted this world in which this is Daphne's house with Daphne's grandparents and who knows the origin story there. But when you think of what that sentence is, if it's all imaginary and this is her moment of imagining this, what does that say about what she perceives from Petula and and Tilda? It seems like maybe like yes she this is like just a role that she's playing and maybe she's pretending to have that power but maybe she's the most fragile of them. And I know obviously if the childhood injury is real then she may literally be the most fragile. It's just fascinating to think about.

SPEAKER_05 45:38

Yeah there's there's just so much to think about and it's the three of them did such a phenomenal job portraying these characters and acting throughout this film. I I just really gotta honestly tip my hat to all three of them because it was just such a phenomenal job and man they just did such a good job acting throughout this film and portraying these different personalities and like that's a hard thing to do when you think about the psychological aspect of this film and the complexity of these characters and the way that they pulled each of these characters off and there wasn't really I didn't feel like there was really one that brought any of the others down. I think they all worked really really really well together.

SPEAKER_01 46:17

Being said in our Scream 6 episode the ensemble was ensembling I think that rings true here as well. Another thing that got me thinking before we realized that all this is fake and they're all in on it it's just a game etc etc was even looking at the way Petula hooks up with the train conductor but specifically in the role of a Dominatrix so I felt like that was just it was supposed to be our clue oh she's really good at role play. And I know she talks about being an actor like throughout the movie but I found that that was a very very specific choice.

SPEAKER_02 46:50

Going back to the cast though I think it it really brings me to the best part of this movie and and that is you can you can have such a small cast and get a lot done and I think in many cases it makes it better. Because having that fourth character of have of the police officer really acts as a nice foil of course but the three of them together helped really make things seem uh tighter. Like we're talking about that braid earlier like that feeling of being like wrapped up into each other. And I think if this had been like you know we've got the like the parents of each of the girls we've already have the grandparents right but if we had the parents of each of them if we had other friends or sisters or brothers or anything like that I think it would have been too big. And this really helps it feel isolated and helps us feel trapped in the house with them and it really let them each shine that much more. So I I love the fact that they're able to get this done one in a short amount of time and then two with a with a small cast that was just very focused.

SPEAKER_05 47:48

Yeah I think for me if I had to pick and I agree I think that was really good but if I had to pick a worse part for this film um it really was that the way that these scenes kind of progressed was kind of hard to follow at times. Like if you took your eyes off the screen for even a moment it feels like you probably missed something. And I guess that's not necessarily a bad thing but it's so much it takes so much energy and so much focus to really get everything out of the movie like this and it was so chaotic that it was really just hard to follow along at certain times. And that's what like initially led to me thinking do I like this movie or did this really just throw me off but what they did from the beginning very beginning and what they did at the end and like the third act leading to the very end was so good that it made up for the whole middle of the film for me. Yeah just if I had to pick a worse part just like the way that some of the sequence of these scenes kind of ensued but at the same time maybe that's super intentional because maybe they want you to feel like you're inside the mind of these twisted individuals.

SPEAKER_01 48:59

I can completely relate to that I think if there's anything that I can consider a worse part of the movie it's difficult to really pinpoint because it's not the same problem that I think we find in other movies where it's like well if only they put a little bit more effort in here. And I think every ounce of this movie was a very specific choice that was well considered and I think the impact was really thought out before we got to the final product. I I'd be hard pressed to find something that I truly dislike about the movie but I think I'll go with this the peanut butter and jelly sandwich.

SPEAKER_05 49:32

It was fucking disgusting I don't like peanut butter and jelly sandwiches already oh no I I I like peanut butter only but also toast the fucking bread that shit looked genuinely disgusting when I saw her chewing terrible okay I totally forgot I forgot about that scene until you just brought it up and it was like just the way that it was put together with such aggression it was the most aggressively put together PBJ I've ever seen in my life like it was just slapped together and just like like chopped with a knife like with full force. Like it was intense that was an intense PBJ.

SPEAKER_01 50:10

Bro how that bread isn't broken is beyond me.

SPEAKER_02 50:13

Yeah that was it was a disrespectful sandwich like you have to treat PBJ with the most minimum amount of of respect and they went way but way below that. That was hard to watch because not only did it look like crap but then we have to watch somebody eat that sandwich I'm sorry a child could make that sandwich a hundred times better.

SPEAKER_01 50:32

It's truly disgusting. Even the cereal was disgusting absolutely there's not a single ounce of fucking food in this movie that looks delectable like oh yeah let me eat that shit.

SPEAKER_02 50:41

Yeah I mean I am somebody who likes PBJ like my standards are still very low though. Like I I've eaten lots of different combinations that make a PBJ whether it's you got the marshmallow or you got Nutella right you got some some fig jam grape concord grape strawberry whatever I've even had cookie butter and Nutella and fluff or nutter all in one sandwich. Whatever it's it's great. It's good stuff but um I'm trying not to be too unhealthy so I don't eat that stuff anymore. But yeah that was that was a bit insulting of a sandwich. And I don't think I could watch them make that sandwich again. I couldn't do this again. I'm sorry.

SPEAKER_05 51:19

All right well I already said it I think that this movie has already got me wanting to watch it again. I just think there is more to unpack here. There's more little details to catch on the rewatch I will most likely be watching this one again fairly soon. I don't know when, but I want to watch it um while the first one is still kind of fresh in my head so that I can really continue to like add on to what I already have unpacked on this film and see what else I get out of it.

SPEAKER_01 51:48

I just simply don't have the energy to watch this again. I do think the rewatchability extremely high but I think as someone who even though I enjoyed this movie I don't think psychological thrillers or psychological horror films are really high up on my list right now in this season of my life so I think I'll I'll do a hard pass on watching it again. I'm down to talk about it. I'm down to refresh myself on its memory and its synopsis every once in a while but I just don't see myself really sitting down and committing myself to the same experience that I just went through to watch for this episode. But let me just say this, you know, circling back to worst part for a little bit this isn't a real detriment to the movie because again everything was a specific choice but I think if I did watch it again I'd want to consider my feelings on the last 30 ish minutes of the movie because in retrospect it feels like this movie starts as a very tightly wound braid and the whole movie is just slowly unraveling. My problem is that instead of like a steady pace it feels like someone took the braid and then just ripped it apart in the last 30 minutes and it's that just sounds painful, right?

SPEAKER_02 52:55

So I think if I do give this another shot, it would be specifically to reexamine that yeah to me it felt more like somebody asked me to braid their hair and this is what they ended up with.

SPEAKER_01 53:05

Well rewatchability aside there you have it folks braid has earned two slashes and one hack. Now we certainly had a robust discussion here but it doesn't end here by any means because we want to know what you think.

SPEAKER_05 53:16

Yeah was this some long strange trip into the mind of a deranged psychopath? Do you like peanut butter and jelly? Let us know you can join in on the conversation by hanging out with us for free in our Discord. Click the link in our show notes to sign up.

SPEAKER_02 53:31

If you've enjoyed listening to this episode and want to nominate a movie yourself consider becoming one of our patrons. Visit patreon.com slash hacker slash to enjoy more of the show with early access, extended episodes bonus content and live shows.

SPEAKER_01 53:44

We'll see you next time folks and remember we are a family.

SPEAKER_05 53:48

Maybe now we can play without you running away