265: Smile (2022)

SPEAKER_04 0:04

Not being primed for the demon. Look at that, they sell that primer at Home Depot. Greetings and salutations, and welcome to Hacker Slash. If you're joining us again, welcome back. Your mind is so inviting. If this is your first time listening, welcome to the party. We are a horror movie review podcast dedicated to telling you whether a movie is a hack.

SPEAKER_00 0:26

A total joke, a waste of time, or a slash. Totally killer, pun intended.

SPEAKER_04 0:31

We believe horror is for everyone, and as such, we're rating these movies with the perspective we've gained from our varying walks of life and the flavors of fear we fancy most. My name is Chris, I'm your friendly neighborhood slasher enthusiast. This week I'm joined by the superfly space guy Mac.

SPEAKER_01 0:44

I feel it all around me, squeezing.

SPEAKER_04 0:46

The classic horror connoisseur Sean.

SPEAKER_00 0:48

Well, while we're on the subject of wasted earning potentials.

SPEAKER_04 0:51

And the paranormal paramour, Binks. My weekdays are literally impossible. This week we're discussing another psychological horror film. And in fact, its unguerilla marketing techniques caused quite the stir at sporting events last year. In March 2020, the South by Southwest Film Festival featured a short film Parker Finn wrote, directed, and co-produced. The 11-minute film was titled Laura Hasn't Slept, and featured actress Caitlin Stacy starring as a young woman seeking aid from a therapist to help stop a recurring nightmare. A few months later, Paramount Pictures selected Finn to direct an adaptation of his short. Only this time, Stacy reprised her role to set a different story into motion, one where the smiling figures she saw in her nightmare are now appearing before her in broad daylight. The film was anticipated to have a modest release, but thanks in part to actors hired to grin creepily into cameras at sporting events, it ultimately outperformed its box office projections and earned $22.6 million in its debut, making it the biggest theatrical release in September 2022. This week, we're talking about Smile. Before we dive into our discussion, though, we want to make sure you're adequately prepared for this episode. This film touches a wide array of subject matter that may trigger intense reactions from viewers. This movie in particular and our episode will discuss topics of severe mental health disorders, self-harm, suicidal ideation, addiction, and even potentially child neglect. So keep that in mind as we progress. Now, to get started, who's seen this one before?

SPEAKER_00 2:20

I definitely watched this movie shortly after it came out. I did not catch it in theaters, unfortunately, but I did see it shortly after it became available to stream on Paramount Plus and watched it again right before this episode.

SPEAKER_01 2:33

Shout out to Alan, who's been asking me, well, really honestly telling me he was curious to see what I thought for about the past year, but I have not made time to squeeze this in until just now.

SPEAKER_02 2:42

Wow. I had um actually seen the trailer for this movie for a good while before they started the sporting marketing tactics, and I had vowed to myself that I would not see that movie whatsoever because of how creepy it was or it seemed through the trailer. And then I don't know what happened, but I eventually caved, and I guess I decided to see this movie by myself in theaters actually, which was hella brave, and then I just watched it today. So it's been a bit in between, obviously, but so much for vowing to never see it because watching it by myself in theaters was definitely an experience.

SPEAKER_04 3:14

You know, you strike me as someone whose vows are not so easily broken. So I feel like something significant must have happened.

SPEAKER_02 3:21

I think it might have actually been the sporting tactic. Now that if I really think about it, the timing of it of between when I saw the trailers and when they started that gorilla marketing was pretty close in between. I think also I've got AMC stubs. You gotta get that thing used, you know.

SPEAKER_04 3:34

Bro, A-list, best investment I've made in any kind of subscription. So good. I need to make more time to go see movies though. However, I had not seen this movie before this episode. Now, obviously, when it came out last year, we got a lot of talk about it. We had a lot of hype surrounding it, but it wasn't one that ever made it into the lineup last year. That was in the throes of spooky preseason and spooky season, and we were already training so much, like we were recording constantly, and another like new release was gonna be really difficult for us to cover. So we made the you know decision to just hold on to it for a little bit, let it have its moment, we'll see how it ages, and then we'll cover it this year. Going into it though, one of the reasons why I felt like it was an easy decision to not cover it last year was because I felt like everything that was probably good in the movie was in the trailer. I expected this to be something a little bit spooky. I expected it to be very well framed, very well shot. I expected it to be riddled with jump scares, and it just looked like the kind of movie that would try to lure you into a jump scare by having something whisper and then boom, loud sound that you just can't help but be shaken by, right? So what I'm saying is it was giving basic.

SPEAKER_01 4:48

You know, the trailer the trailer looked so bad, and the marketing really seemed like it was trying way too hard. The smiles that we get in in both places just reminded me of really bad late 2000s slash like 2010s horror movies.

SPEAKER_00 5:03

Yeah, that's fair. I think having watched the trailer and read the synopsis for this one, I was expecting this to be a much more familiar horror film, a formula that I'm used to. You know, like I was expecting for this film to have something, some frightening scenes, some good jump scares, that smile, of course, that we saw. I'm expecting for this one to creep me out a little bit, but definitely feel like something I've seen before.

SPEAKER_02 5:30

Yeah, and I think for me, you know, usually when it's my second time watching a film, I'm expecting that the scares and overall movie won't impact me as much or be as successful, like especially in its fright. But to be honest, when it comes to smile, it's a little different for me, I think. More so because the subject matter at hand is pretty sensitive overall. And so I knew there was gonna be a strong chance that I would still feel some type of way re-watching this. And I even distinctly remember before I had first seen it, someone had told me, you know, hey, if you suffer from some mental health disorders, you should probably be a little careful watching this, which I found pretty interesting, right? Because there's several horror movies that kind of deal with this subject matter of mental health to some extent. But based on the trailer, it's giving, like you said, Mac 2000s, mid-2000s. So I was like, how, you know, real is this? But to be honest, they honestly were right. And throughout feeling this movie out, even the second time around, I was still scared, I was still uneasy, I was like sad and distraught, frustrated, all of these things still the second time around. You know, we bring up this disclaimer at the introduction, and I think it's important because it pulls out a lot of dark emotions and potential triggers if you relate to the themes here. And and granted, I think it masks a lot of it with traditional modern horror tactics, like these jump scares that we see in the trailers and throughout the movie as well. But there's so much gaslighting in this movie and certain scenes in this film that are extremely unsettling if you are sensitive to these topics. And so that's kind of what I was getting even the second time around watching it.

SPEAKER_01 7:02

You know, it reminded me of a lot of things while watching a lot of different movies, but I think the experience of watching it was like the experience of watching Bug from 2006, where you're watching this psychological train wreck. So you're cringing, but you also can't quite look away for many parts of it.

SPEAKER_00 7:18

Overall, I did feel through this movie a little creeped out in a couple of different moments. Like I know this hits heavy just because of you know what it entails and the message it's sending, uh, which we're gonna dive into in the second half, I'm sure, and really break it apart. But there were some I there were some spots throughout this film that really actually genuinely creeped me out. Uh, the film did a good job of building suspense in the right moments. The score really worked well to enhance the scenes and especially the jump scares. So some of the feelings that I had throughout the film was actual creepiness.

SPEAKER_04 7:55

Man, that's so interesting because look, look, I said earlier, I thought that all the good stuff would be in the trailer. And while not all the good stuff is in the trailer, I do think some of the best stuff is in the trailer. When I went into this, I really tried to evade any preconceived notions about it, aside from just that initial impression. This has been one that so many people have asked about. Every day at work, it's have you seen Smile? What do you think of Smile? And I'm like, I don't know. I don't uh we'll get to it when we get to it. But I think sitting down, even in the first few minutes, understanding and realizing what this movie is and what it does, there's a lot that goes into the complexity of the things I felt during this movie. Now, I would say in a word, I was underwhelmed. And I was really frustrated during this movie, mostly because of all the potential it had. And I found myself feeling either bored or sad the entire time. Some glimmering moments of redemption, right? Like, man, what a concept. I really was excited to, after watching this, go look at the short film that inspired this movie, and I found that I enjoyed that more. And I think what it comes down to is that it's not that it's a bad movie. It's that I'm not a huge fan of the psychological or spooky thriller or horror movies that have a countdown running and someone having to solve the mystery of something at this season in my life. I think I'm just maybe not the right audience for it. But what I do think is really great about this is the the depths that it goes to to represent trauma in so many different forms and fashions. You know, we we give the the the warning, right? The uh disclaimer at the beginning of the episode. And I'm someone who has struggled with my mental health since I was 19, even a little bit before, but trauma is something that I'm like processing on a daily basis. And while you can get to the other side of things, you never really completely heal. And that's why I looked for so much in this movie that could be like a really beautiful or interesting take on it. And then I found myself just questioning who is this movie for? You know what I mean? Like in and in what phase of healing do you have to be to really appreciate this for it to feel cathartic? Because it doesn't feel cathartic to me. It feels like, okay, yeah, I already know this. The darkness is there, right? And I think that was my biggest surprise. My biggest surprise is what a complete mixed bag this is.

SPEAKER_01 10:13

Yeah, I was disappointed by a lot. You know, there's like you mentioned, there's some parts where you can just truly tune tune out, but I think I was actually really surprised by how good the casting was. And the cast I think really elevates the film. The the characters, you know, many of them are kind of two-dimensional, but there's there's a few, even with a small bit side piece that really bring a lot a lot to the screen. I'm I'm seeing Carla from Scrubs, one of the best scenes of the movie, gotta say. You know, I mean, anytime you can let character work just do the job, that's fantastic. The other parts where we're not letting the characters do all the work, Derek, it it does get a little bit boring. But overall, like watching this, there's nothing about the story that necessarily surprised me. There's nothing about the film that's like incredibly disappointing. So I think I kind of latched on to the idea that like I did not expect these people to actually like have taken the job for this film.

SPEAKER_00 11:06

Yeah, so I had a moment where I thought we were actually reviewing it follows. But then I remembered that we were actually reviewing the ring. I mean smile, sorry. But we're gonna talk about it later. I'm sure, Chris, I know you have a lot to say. I had to throw it out there, but uh, in all seriousness, I was surprised by how effective the tension was uh and the jump scares were, despite the fact that it was all very predictable. We could all probably guess when the jump scare scenes were coming, but I think the way they were shot, backed by the score and the sound effects, with some quality acting, it allowed for me to react. And I genuinely did get creeped out in one or two of these scenes, which I was genuinely surprised about watching this film.

SPEAKER_02 11:47

Look, you took it right out of my mouth in terms of the ring, it follows, so similar. And I think that's my disappointment about this film, too, right? It's it's just so mid-2000s, it's trying to relive that era in some way, all the while still relishing in modern horror with all these extreme jump scares. And what's unfortunate about it all is that it's got such a deep, dark plot. It's got such a layered story while trying to live up to the ring and that whole hype around it, that it's just left with an okay ending, an okay everything else. So I'm just kind of on the line of like, man, there's such a great plot here, but then there's also just execution. It was mid.

SPEAKER_04 12:32

See, that is the thing for me, Binks. Because hey, everybody Q Ryan saying, there goes Chris Rojas, falling in love with potential. But you know what? I've been in therapy and I've been growing. I'm not falling in love with this potential. I can see it has potential and I expect it to be better, and that's okay. You know what I mean? Like this movie, yes, the premise, and even some of the things that we get in this really shine. And I can see such a good movie coming from this movie, but it's not the movie that I got. And that's what's disappointing. What disappoints me was watching even the short film and thinking, damn, this is a hell of a director. This is a hell of a writer. You know what I mean? And and then seeing this, it feels like, I don't know, if it feels like corporations got its hand, it got its hands on the project and it lost the true spirit of it. And I'm not saying that that's exactly what happened by any stretch of the imagination. I imagine that Finn is completely proud of this work, and I think he should be. I think a lot of people love this movie, but it just doesn't hit for me. And I'm gonna unpack why that is in the second half. But I think the other element of this is it has some generic scares in it. I think there was one really good moment where I was like, yikes, at a ghostly image of someone lurking, and that's about it. Because the rest of it was like the James Wan jump scare factory.

SPEAKER_02 13:50

But you know, at the end of the day, hold on, because I I do enjoy a James Wan factory, so I'm gonna get on my soapbox just really quickly. This is a horror movie that for those that maybe aren't extreme horror avid fans like we are, and just want jump scares every now and then, this is going to achieve that. So when I think of sometimes me that I can get easily fright, you know, frightened, maybe not so much now that I have joined this podcast, though, I think that it's gonna do that. Yes, some of the jump scares we saw from the trailers, but there's other moments that you didn't expect or see that for someone who doesn't consume horror constantly, but does like the occasional typical horror movie, this is the movie that will do it for them. But let's also talk about the fact that you're also just never gonna see smiles the same again. Or was that just me? After I left that theater, and even now, I see some smiles and I'm like, oh, that's not okay. And quite frankly, that is kind of what they were trying to say in terms of this plot. So I'm just saying, is a little scary.

SPEAKER_01 14:56

I don't know. For me, it's it's kind of the opposite. I am unaffected by a smile. I don't find anything about a smile scary. Even when people try to do a scary smile, when they try to seem nefarious, I don't I don't feel it. It always seems cheesy to me. And that's what I was scared about when watching the trailer. I was like, oh, those smiles, it's gonna be cheese testic. And I don't think it was cheesy necessarily, but I just don't find it scary.

SPEAKER_04 15:18

So here's the thing about the smiles. Yes, a lot of them are sinister, and I'm staring at this whole movie, right? You gotta think, boy, they probably have great mandibles now. Like the muscle strength, right? How sore were their faces after shooting this film? But when you think about sinister smiles, nothing's ever more sinister than classic Joker. You know what I mean? So growing up a DC fan and thinking about Joker and the killing joke and and really all the all the different variations that we've had, except for Jared Leto's Joker, fuck that Joker, the smiles are less creepy to me. But here is what I do enjoy is if they had played on the fear of what's lurking beneath the surface, not in like in the nefarious way, but how much um a smile masks your feelings and how much you wear a smile as someone who is traumatized to just like suppress everything that's happening beneath you. And you look at like the pain signs that are in this movie, and we'll unpack that later. But I would have rather focused not on like the evil nature of a smile, but rather what else is lurking behind the smile.

SPEAKER_00 16:19

Yeah, I think but the to that point, I think that they did send that message in some way in the film. So like I think it had a blend of of both of what you're saying, right? Like I think it it had the surface level smile and it had the smile that's covering up other stuff. So I think the message is there if you're looking for it, but we're it you know, like I said, we're gonna talk about it later. When we think about like how scary the film is, like I can see to your point, Binx, like I'm with you, I can see this being scary for a lot of people out there. There are some disturbing images in this film, the kind of images that may stick around in your head for a while after. Like I can see people wanting to keep the lights on, maybe. I don't know. I I don't think the film is super frightening for me, but I think that if it if it could make my heart rate increase a little bit, it's gotta be a little frightening to the average viewer. So it it had some good jump scares, although cliche and predictable, they were still effective, and some of the scenes creep up on you.

SPEAKER_04 17:19

Ooh, speaking of cliche and predictable, it has its moments, right? We've talked about it. Sean, you mentioned it earlier, Bing says, well, this movie is straight up it follows in the ring put together. That's what this movie is. It's also a little bit of a few other things, but it brings an element to the table that is lofty and important to discuss. And that's why I'm conflicted about this movie because it does try to do something new. But the problem for me is that it's wrapped in a blanket of mediocrity. It's regurgitative material that makes it feel more mainstream than Finn's original short ever felt. Even though his short felt something more akin to a nightmare on Elm Street. How do you make a short that feels more like that but still feels more original than this movie? I don't know.

SPEAKER_00 18:02

It's true though. Like it feels like all of these movies, it feels like it follows in the ring in all these movies. And and you alluded to it earlier. Like it just didn't execute the same way. It didn't execute in a way that made it better than those movies, essentially. But short and sweet, I have a hard time giving this film credit for originality here. I I think we have said it. We're going to continue to talk about it. It just feels like a lot of other movies. It's a very familiar plot. There's nothing really new here.

SPEAKER_02 18:33

Well, hold on though. Just devil's advocate here. Nothing new here. However, it follows. Its tactic is sex. The ring is a videotape. I think what I wasn't expecting that I can give kudos to is that they took something that is supposed to be happy. How many times have you been in a scenario where someone, or maybe like you've seen the quote where you have to smile and eventually you're going to feel better by smiling? And it's actually in this movie, the point is that smiling is like we've talked about a little bit already, it's just a mask over something that is more sinister or just more dark and you know, terrorizing and sad and anguish. All these emotions, right? Like a smile really is actually nothing, is what I gathered. So I think that is original. That's what differs from the likeness of the ring and it follows, and all these other like chain method type movies.

SPEAKER_01 19:31

That was a very worthy attempt to give this movie some originality credit. So I think that was that was valiant for sure. I'm not gonna give it all that credit. I I can't give it all that credit. Because while watching it, I had the same reaction, the gut reaction that that Chris and Sean had, which was I literally wrote in my notes, it follows meets the ring times 1000. And that's a it's it's a bit too simple for sure, because it does go way deeper. And I don't know that it follows could be a direct comparison. They each try to go deep in their own way and they do it in different ways. But I think where it differs is the end of the movie. That's where things really changed for me, was the end of this movie. That's when things got truly interesting. One from a plot point, but like two, like visually very interesting. So I think the ending was a bit of a redemption in in some ways, and was probably the most enjoyable like part of the film for me.

SPEAKER_00 20:23

Okay. I it look, I didn't have a problem with the very last scene that we see in this movie. I actually liked the final moments of this film. What I didn't like was the shit that was going on leading up to the end of the film. In fact, I hated it. I'm sure we'll talk about it in the second half, but yeah, loved the final moments of the film, was fine with it, enjoyed it, successful, but everything that led up to it I just disliked so much.

SPEAKER_02 20:52

Which is interesting because I think when I discussed this movie with a couple people, including my mom, actually, they hated the ending. Although I think the ending wasn't what everyone wanted, to me it was like it was the reality of the situation, and it's a tough pill to swallow type of thing. So I I actually enjoyed it as well. I don't know, it wasn't what you expected, but was. I can appreciate that towards the end.

SPEAKER_04 21:14

So here's my problem. It's exactly what I expected, given the tone of the movie and the subject matter of the movie. The entire thing feels unrelenting, and this is what I was talking about when it gets down to like a target audience, right? What message is this really trying to send? I know the inspiration, I know the motifs, but at the end of the day, what is the feeling? What is the the moral of the story that they wanted people to walk away from? And I don't know that it's one that I fundamentally agree with. And for me, the last moment is a cool shot. And I'm not mad at it, it's like the ending of a movie. But for the mixed bag and the way that it was handled leading up to that moment, it didn't really hit for me. Well, feelings on the ending aside, we have to start making our way towards actually scoring this movie, but before we do, Sean. How would you describe the gore score?

SPEAKER_00 22:01

There's some pretty good gore in this film. You don't get a ton of it, but the scenes where you do get it, it's pretty good. Overall, you see enough blood and self-inflicted bodily injuries throughout this film that would land this one at probably like a medium gore score.

SPEAKER_04 22:16

And what about the animal report?

SPEAKER_02 22:18

So we had a good streak going, but the time has come and we are not safe. So there is certainly a casualty. So proceed with caution.

SPEAKER_04 22:27

Well, let's go ahead and get into our readings. Smile from 2022. Was it a hacker or slash?

SPEAKER_01 22:32

I'll jump into this one first because I I know Binks has a good bit to say, and I don't have a ton, but this was not a having fun kind of horror movie. You know, you're gonna squirm. I I feel like you're gonna be probably bored in a few parts, but thankfully you're gonna get some cool visuals to keep you on edge here and there. It is serviceable, it's got a familiar conceit, but the many mundane moments and the recurring feeling of it being a bit too familiar slowly inched this toward hack territory. I think in the end I just left feeling depressed, which ripped this from a possible soft slash directly into hackland.

SPEAKER_00 23:06

Okay, well, so I I see where you're going with that for sure. I struggled with this one too. And I know we've been talking a lot of shit about the fact that this movie is very much the same as some of its predecessors, and it is, but I was still invested in the film. So, like, I know we've talked about maybe moments being mundane and and maybe not buying into it or whatever, but I actually felt invested in the film. I thought the way the film was able to build tension, uh, have some genuinely creepy shots, um, all of that led for some really effective scenes and jump scares. So this this movie definitely has its flaws for sure. It's predictable in a lot of ways, it's familiar in a lot of ways, but I don't think that it necessarily ruined the movie for me. So I'm gonna have to still give this film a slash.

SPEAKER_02 23:55

So look, I I feel like I have tried to defend this movie a little bit here and there. So I'm just gonna get right into it. You're right, Mec. I've got a little bit to say, but not too much. And I think we've discussed at length that this movie, despite its resemblance to a lot of early to mid-2000s horror films, has left an impression on me, even the second time around. And like re-watching this movie, I feel like I've seen things a little bit clearer about the mental health aspect and plot of this film that is so dark and twisted, just like its literal premise when it comes to smiles. I mean, it literally has taken something happy and twisted it quite literally upside down. Like I can't imagine it any other way but that. And I think that's cool and something different, although very similar. I've talked about it at length, but look, I'm just gonna say this. I think this movie is maybe not for us that watches a lot of horror movies on a constant basis. I think this horror movie is a fun time for those that are just dabbling in the space every now and then. And this is a horror movie that can do that, but also get a little bit deeper than they are typically used to. And ultimately, it is not the best horror movie that I've seen that covers and has to deal with mental health by a landslide, but it wasn't a waste of my time either, nor was it a waste of my time the second time around. So undoubtedly, of course, I am giving this a slash.

SPEAKER_04 25:21

Okay, so I've said quite a bit about this movie that may sound very negative. Let me be clear that there's a lot to appreciate here. In fact, when we get down to the visuals and we're talking about some of the cinematography in this movie, I have a lot to say. But when I consider how this movie makes me feel from like a cinematic experience, I didn't walk away from this feeling like it added any value to my life. And I think that's the real disappointing part. I appreciate its place and its existence as a movie that got people interested. I love the marketing around this movie, minus the trailer. I wish they had held back a little bit on the trailer. Give us a a little bit less in the trailer. But I feel like there has to be something that you're trying to say, and you had to really carefully select your audience. So, yeah, being streight, like maybe it's not for us, but it is for people who want to get a little bit deeper, right? Like when you think about the spectrum of horror or like the horror starter pack, maybe this is a really good addition to that. And I can respect it. And I think I would recommend it for folks who haven't seen The Ring or haven't seen it follows, so they can maybe enjoy that with a more fresh perspective. When it comes down to it, the subject matter of this movie is something that I'm extremely close to. As someone who's extremely close to it, I think about what I am walking away for and am I better for it? And I'm not. This movie, in some ways, is very inspired and is in other ways uninspired, and that's what makes it complicated. For me, it's a hack because I simply feel like some of it is just hopeless. And that is really disappointing to me. And with that, Smile from 2022 has earned two hacks and two slashes. So we're split down the middle. Either way, you can find this movie streaming online, so go check the link in our show notes for where you can currently stream it now. Then join us in the second half so we can unbox this trauma together. We'll see you in a bit.

SPEAKER_01 27:31

But not you because you have Grinuin. With Grinuin, a patent pending smile detector and decoder, you can instantly detect whether someone's smile is genuine, flirtatious, bullshit, or an evil malevolent force in constant pursuit of your soul. Use a casual conversation at the office to detect if your work crush is actually into you, or just wants to feed off the cyclical nature of your unaddressed trauma. Now you can approach conversations with more confidence, knowing that Grenuine has your back. Use promo code SMILEORFRON to save 66.6% on your first order of Grenuin.

SPEAKER_04 28:09

Welcome back, folks, and you are now entering the spoiler zone for SMILE 2022, which has earned two hacks and two slashes. Now we have a lot to unpack here, particularly the trauma that this movie covers. But before we get into the specifics of why we rated this film the way we did, let's go through the kills.

SPEAKER_00 28:24

Yeah, so there are a total of six deaths we either see on screen or at the very least proof that the death happened, whether by video or picture. Then there are like something like 19 deaths mentioned by Detective Joel after investigating the chain further, right? So on the record, six, off the record, something like 25. But I think there is enough love to go around. So what were your favorite kills?

SPEAKER_04 28:52

First, let me just say, Sean, what a thorough report you give. Absolutely fantastic. You're checking all types of records and receipts. I appreciate it. Second, I'm gonna go with one that is on the record, but not a main death that we actually see happen, and that's gonna be Gabriel. Specifically because of the photographic evidence of how fucked his face was with a claw hammer. Jeez, that was awful. I'm thinking about the teeth, the weird splits, the jaw situation, all of it, highly traumatic.

SPEAKER_00 29:24

I mean, holy shit, how do you even do that to yourself?

SPEAKER_04 29:28

Well, a demon does it.

SPEAKER_00 29:29

True, but geez, just imagine the force you would have to do to break your jaw and move it in that way. Like, oh my gosh, that was brutal.

SPEAKER_02 29:37

And the tongue was just like sprawled out.

SPEAKER_00 29:40

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 29:40

Nuts.

SPEAKER_00 29:41

Oh, it's some kind of smile.

SPEAKER_01 29:43

Oof, not a pretty sight though. That was a pretty gross kill. I think I think I'm gonna go easy peasy and pick Laura because wow, what an on-screen death that we get here. It is massive. Like it is over the top and right in our face. And this is hard because the nature of this film means pretty much anything we're gonna get on screen is due to self-harm, which is really hard to watch. But at the same time, they do explain it, of course, as being like, this is not them hurting themselves. In reality, this is like a possession, this is a demon hurting them. And so I think if you if you watch the deaths with that, with that in mind, you can you can definitely weigh them a bit better because it's it's not them hurting themselves, it's something doing this, doing this to them. But it was still it was still tough because she's just freaking digging in there, just going for it slowly. Not a quick thing, not like I'm gonna just take her out or anything. That demon was just like, look, look at this pain. I want to hurt your mind.

SPEAKER_00 30:39

Yeah, and I think when you look at it, yeah, if you're if you're looking deeper and it's like, okay, it's a possession, but when you ever whenever you watch somebody do something to themselves, it just hits different. And that was such a iconic moment for the film.

SPEAKER_02 30:55

Absolutely. And you know, we're talking about the demon is the one that's actually doing the killing. So I'm gonna bring this up here because I just can't wait any longer. Who does this demon remind you all of? I'm curious. Take your guesses.

SPEAKER_03 31:08

Obviously, sex demon from It Follows. Okay. No, that's not what I'm thinking. What? Next.

SPEAKER_01 31:15

Really? Doug Jones? Like physically?

SPEAKER_02 31:18

Physically. When the when the demon is sh is shown to you, what does she look like?

SPEAKER_04 31:23

Okay. Hold on. It looks like every fucking character that Javier Botet has ever been in a movie.

SPEAKER_02 31:29

Gosh, Chris, no. Come on. It's me that's asking this question. Do you want me to spoil it?

SPEAKER_00 31:35

Well, I don't think I'm I'm tracking, so.

SPEAKER_04 31:37

Are you talking about mother from Barbarian? It is the mother from Barbarian, friends.

SPEAKER_00 31:42

Come on.

SPEAKER_02 31:44

Easy peasy. Identity.

SPEAKER_00 31:46

I tried to suppress that image from my mind, so I wasn't trying to revisit that film.

SPEAKER_04 31:52

I say again, also, every fucking character Javier Botet has ever been in a fucking movie. Okay. Every character. Alright, yes. He's always a tall, stretchy, gangly woman monster. International Women's Month.

SPEAKER_02 32:06

I mean, yeah, but the point is that when I saw this movie, I was like, come on. It's mother. Less teat action, clearer face. There's no memory gland action going on here, which is good, but you know, that's good. Not the boob count.

SPEAKER_00 32:23

We said some good ones. I think another really good kill in this one was the gas station dude. You don't get to see a lot of it, right? But you get to see how brutal the kill was. It really was both brutal and ridiculous at the same time. Like the blood spraying all over the car. And even the director, Parker Finn, said the way they ended up shooting the scene was on purpose because they wanted to add a little absurdity to the film since the film is so serious and so evil. They were originally going to have that scene or kill play out a bit more and not necessarily on footage to make a bigger impact, but I don't know what that would have done for the film one way or another, but I did think that overall it was a good kill. Just imagining you're just trying to pump your gas, and some random dude comes up and just starts mutilating himself with garden shears and just spraying blood all over your car. It's like, dude, now I gotta get a fucking car wash, bro.

SPEAKER_01 33:19

Another another thought though. So the gas station thing.

SPEAKER_00 33:22

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 33:23

What if somebody's at the gas station getting their gas and they're entirely too baked to be phased by anything and they're just watching, going like, I am too high for this, and they just roll out of there. Does the demon actually transfer to them? The question's ever answered. If whatever is viewed is not trauma traumatic to that person.

SPEAKER_00 33:41

Yeah. You're just so stoned that your eyes are glazed over that you're just like not even paying attention. You're like, whoa, dude, that was some wild shit. I'm not traumatized by it. I'm still, I'm still in the back of my mind thinking I just hit no to what I like a car wash today, and you just fucked my car up. So, like, that's what my mind's going to right now. Not not the trauma of you killing yourself because you just made a bigger problem for me, buddy.

SPEAKER_02 34:06

It's dude, where's my car? Meets horror.

SPEAKER_00 34:10

But overall, when you look at the deaths in this film, right, aside from mustache, R.I.P., R.I.P. They are all suicides or acts of violent desperation, right? So this is when we're talking about like the mental health aspect of this film and the tone of this film and the message that it's sending, you know, a behavior typical for people suffering from mental illness is self-harm and or suicide. And, you know, now we're looking at a much deeper movie than what was floating on the surface.

SPEAKER_02 34:41

Absolutely. Which I think is kind of like a at the very beginning of the film, you see this opening shot of this woman on the bed, and then you come to realize obviously that it is this therapist's mom, you know, in which case that is not something that was demonic possessed or anything of that nature, and you uncover it's a lot more sinister in terms of the child not helping her. It's kind of like, okay, we see all of these crazy kills, but we also there is one kill or death really there that is just not anything to do with the plot and is just really sad.

SPEAKER_04 35:15

Yeah, see, and that's where I think I take issue, right? Because this is a movie that frames trauma and this is an entity that feeds on trauma. And I just don't like the angle of this being an entity that wins and is never ending. Like we always know there's gonna be more trauma, so I can live with the entity never really truly being defeated, but for our main girl to to go through what she goes through here and to endure everything that she has and to confront her own demons and the skeletons in her closet and to try to unpack her trauma, only to be vanquished in the end, and then for the cycle to start all over with her ex-boyfriend. I wouldn't say that it feels like it's in poor taste, but it feels hopeless. You can lure people in with a movie that's the premise is about a creepy smile, right? I think at first glance it doesn't really talk about the trauma. Like the trauma element of this I don't think is apparent or was apparent from the the trailer and the marketing. So you lure people in with no real warning about what they're getting into. Man, when I think about what I was feeling last year, if I had watched this movie, it would not have been good for me. I don't fucking jive with a message that it sends. You know what I mean? Like I just I wanted to see someone be a hero and you know conquer their own situations. And it feels like they just lost.

SPEAKER_02 36:38

Which I think is what I was trying to say in terms of the ending being something that people were upset about because they also, I would imagine, agree with you. They wanted her to survive that, they wanted it, but for me, it was kind of like it's a hard pill to swallow that ultimately some it is that hopelessness sometimes, and it's a lot harder and more difficult to come to terms with the fact that like dealing with your trauma is gonna be a lot more than just burning down the house that you grew up in and facing and running away from a very tall being, the way that the movie portrays it. I'm not agreeing with that, but I'm just the way I perceived it was that typically you see the final girl conquer her, you know, her trauma and her demons and then is successful. But in reality, that's a lot longer of a journey and a lot harder of a journey than just doing it in one moment. But I will say that you are correct though. I I guess I need to kind of understand and see it from the other perspective that, okay, when you point it one way and then you are just talking a lot about this hopelessness and suicide and suicide ideation and all of these things that is happening within these kills, you gotta be very careful with that narrative and who's actually watching this film, which is why I'm glad we provide these trigger warnings.

SPEAKER_01 37:53

Yeah, I think there's a way to get into deep topics and to not leave the audience feeling so much worse than when they began. And that's like the Baba Duck. I think the Baba Duck, some people liked, some people didn't. I liked it. And that is a way to deal with some really tough stuff, but to show that together with help that you can get through things.

SPEAKER_04 38:12

Okay. You retroactively make me appreciate the Baba Duck a little bit more. I still it's not my kind of movie, but I'm thinking about it follows. That movie is filled with so much trauma and so much pain. And in the end, you know they didn't really win, but they're on a journey and they're facing it and they're surviving it. And that's what I felt like this needed for me to feel like it wasn't just, hey, let's take your trauma, put it on display, and then uh make a buck off of it. You know what I mean? Like it didn't feel like there was a real point to it, aside from to show people who have not endured trauma, this is real bad, and you may assume that they all want to self-harm or do this, and maybe you're right. No, like that shit is a fucking struggle. And I think on the one hand, we can think about the the depths of what the entity is and what the entity means and like the generational trauma, the cyclical nature of trauma. Like there's so much to unpack here. But at first glance, on the surface, who's looking at this and just thinking that the entity is depression and it's bad to be depressed? Obviously, it's not great to be depressed by any means, but I can imagine some folks in my family watching this who whisper the word depression. You know what I mean? It's like almost as if it is its own death sentence and not something that you with proper therapy can overcome or you know live with and grow from. And that's where this movie is problematic for me.

SPEAKER_00 39:29

Yeah, I mean, so I I can see, like, for me, I can see more in depth of like what they're trying to say and like mental health and mental like illness, and a lot of people that are struggling with things like mental illness and depression and things are genuinely not gonna show it on the outside all the time, and thus like the smile and all of that, and I can I can understand that watching this film, but I think also if you if you haven't struggled with it before, right, or if it hasn't been directly involved in your life in any capacity, that it's not gonna hit the same way for you. And so, in that aspect, like for me, like have I had some traumas in my life, sure, but have I had any trauma that that I feel like I can 100% relate to in this film? I personally can't. So I I did enjoy the film. Like, I it didn't bother me that there was a like an ending of no hope, and like and and and maybe that's the difference there, right? And just thinking about everything that you're all saying.

SPEAKER_01 40:32

I think some some viewers watched this and wanted the movie to end after Rose burns down the house, right? And that would be the way that she overcomes by killing the demon or whatever. I think the right way to end it in my book, at least, would be when the ex shows up and she realizes that you know she didn't defeat it, that she goes to run back in the house and he stops her and she slams the door shut and they walk away together, or they go in together. I think that would have been the way for me that they could end this, is showing that her trying to go it alone was not the right way to go about it, and that there is a better way with somebody who believes you and who will be there with you.

SPEAKER_04 41:10

I can appreciate that. I could almost even appreciate the same sudden jarring ending as Barbarian. I think barbarian leaves you in a more conclusive place about everything that's happening, but you remember seeing Barbarian that it just like cuts. And I almost could have just appreciated that, knowing like, okay, it's still not over. But to see her finally vanquished, it's just it's a bad taste for me. It's a really bad taste. And I will say though that in the exploration of this theme and thinking about what this film does with its motifs and and thinking about what it's trying to portray, one of the things that I love most about it is the actual camera movement. And Mac, I don't know if this was triggering for you or dizzying for you or anything like that, but there are so many moments where the camera moves through the scene and it's showing it from her perspective. And if you look closely, most of the time, it's doing it in a smile line, and it's just like a sudden curved pan, and you're processing, you're really slowly processing, you're taking it all in. And I think getting to see things from her perspective and getting to just like slowly take in everything puts you right in her place. And it may maybe again, that's why it was so impactful for me, but it felt like it preyed on me versus just trying to impact me.

SPEAKER_01 42:30

I did not catch that, and it it didn't bother me, thank goodness. But I didn't realize like how subtle they were with some of that. That was a really cool thing to catch.

SPEAKER_00 42:37

Yeah, I didn't catch that either, but I and now I'm trying to think back to those shots.

SPEAKER_02 42:42

So for me, I actually I'm thinking of all of the small details they've incorporated into this film that I think are such a nice little touch. You could tell that the gorilla marketing that they were doing for this film was an inspiration from the things that they already did within the film, like sprinkling all of these smiles everywhere. So I have like a little list going there's the smiley cup that Rose is holding after everything that's happened to her, you know, like her coffee cup, which I think is so ironic because this is literally after she sees what has happened, and she's just got her like that smiley coffee cup, like all is well, you know, have a great day type of vibe. Definitely not though. In the ending, actually, since we were talking just about it, there's a broken curtain rail and light that's coming through the window in her bedroom when she is confronting her mom in that scene. That it looks like the exact same smile that Gabriel drew in his paintings that represents Lollipop or the entity. We've also got Rose borrowing a crescent earring that at one point is facing an unhappy face frown. The contact photo of her fiance, it was at first, you know, just a f picture of him not smiling, and later on in the movie he's smiling. And then in general, all of the people that are smiling. Smiling if you noticed, or eventually, or smiling or possessed, they're all wearing bright and pastel colors, like if they're happy. Whereas Rose is usually wearing like dark muted tones. So it's like just the smallest of things that represent this happiness and like toxic happiness everywhere that's actually very scary. So I'll give them props for that. I thought it was really cool.

SPEAKER_04 44:21

Ooh, toxic happiness, toxic positivity. It's insidious, really. I love that.

SPEAKER_00 44:26

Yeah, there's a lot of details. I I would say my favorite visual element in this film is the effects, but not the special effects. Maybe, maybe definitely some of the practical effects for sure, but I really enjoyed like the 100% human acting effects. Like the smiles that these characters had were creepy, they were sinister, and it only made me love them even more when I found out that all the smiles were 100% real. Like these actors and actresses perfected their own creepy smiles for this film. Uh, I I think Parker Finn is genius for doing that and not utilizing special effects or visual effects or whatever to add to that. I just think just looking back at everyone's unique evil grin of a smile and it being 100% them, amazing.

SPEAKER_02 45:13

Do you have a favorite smile out of all of them?

SPEAKER_00 45:16

Oh yeah. I mean, for me, I do think Laura's was the best. I also think that Dr. Northcott or whatever, the therapist, like hers wasn't crazy, but it was something about it was just just not right.

SPEAKER_02 45:29

Yeah, definitely not pleasant.

SPEAKER_01 45:31

See, I I actually liked a special effect, and that is the look of the demon. The look of that thing, that towering, skinny, gross-looking thing, specifically before the face opens up, though. I think after the face opens up, like that's it's fine. There's nothing wrong with it, but I liked it where it still had that human look to it, and it's just like so menacing with those big ol' eyes, you know, and it's just it seems like the limbs, the proportions are all wrong, and it's just way too tall and way too skinny. And I don't know, there's something about that that I I don't I'm I'm glad we didn't get a bunch of it. Like if it had been in the entire movie all the way through, it would have been way too much. But that the good bit we get at the end fully on screen was very effective.

SPEAKER_04 46:14

Okay, so that's really interesting. I really enjoyed the look of the demon when the mouth opens up, but not exactly before and not exactly after, because even the point where it's crawling inside of her to consume her and control her, that bit of effect, like on her mouth with the jaw stretching, it's something looked off about it. It didn't look like it could really support the suspension of my disbelief. I loved the look of the mouth opening because it's literally just humans stacked on top of each other, and it's showing how many generations this goes back, it shows that it's never-ending, and that's the level of never-ending that I can get into. I can see how many lives this has taken without it necessarily having to doom her completely. Just like a little bit of optimism to see like the teeth stacked on top of each other, to see the cyclical nature of that trauma. I fucking loved that part of it.

SPEAKER_01 47:12

A little uh feeling of it, perhaps.

SPEAKER_04 47:14

Yeah, I was just waiting for the deadlights, you know. I thought Pennywise is gonna be doing his little happy clown dance in the background. That would have really sent me.

SPEAKER_01 47:21

Well, speaking of happy clown dance, there is for me kind of a surprise scene that is not enjoyable in any way. So I don't know why I said it. Speaking of a clown, but when we get into the prison and we talk to the prisoner, holy cow, that scene is amazing. Especially when he realizes that she's got it and he loses it. Like he is showing us more fear than anyone could show while watching this movie.

SPEAKER_02 47:45

Yeah, he really like went in there. That he that scare was so believable because of course, like you've somehow defeated this. You've you're paying the price, but at least you're free of it. And what are the chances in some ways, right? Like somehow, once again, the c the six degrees of Kevin Bacon find you in the situation where you've where you're facing or potentially facing this all over again.

SPEAKER_00 48:08

One, I know, I know that this is probably not a popular decision, maybe just hearing some of the reactions to the end and the message and everything, but I thought the final shot of Joel's eye with the reflection of Rose being burned alive and knowing that he is gonna now have to deal with this thing was a really great scene. And we'll talk about it more, but like I disliked everything leading up to that point. I know you just said that you all liked it, or at least Chris and Mac, you liked it. I didn't like everything leading up to that scene, but I loved that last shot of the film.

SPEAKER_04 48:41

Oh, yeah. I should be clear. I don't like everything about that scene. I like the way the demon looks, and I like that shot. Everything else, fuck that scene.

SPEAKER_01 48:49

Absolutely agreed. Wrong move. The look in his eyes, though, was fantastic. And I kept wondering, is he gonna turn around? Is he gonna look away? Is he gonna do something? Because he knows what's coming.

SPEAKER_04 48:59

Let me say this. What I should have actually said for biggest surprise of this fucking movie is how great his performance was, because that one look was better than anything I've ever seen from this man. And he's also aged into looking much better than he did when he was younger.

SPEAKER_02 49:14

Oh, I'll get into my Kyle Gallner moment in just a second. Don't you wait?

SPEAKER_04 49:18

Yeah, but my favorite scene actually comes from the ones that add fuel to that fire, and that is everything we get with the mother from the beginning when we realize that the movie opens up on a fucking dead body and the loss of life and light in her eyes, to then the memories that we get back of knowing that she found her mother, but then also learning that her mom didn't want to die and her mom asked for help. And we think about addiction and how overwhelming it can be and how crippling it can be. And we think about what it takes for someone to finally ask for help, but then also the impact on the person who loves that person with this addiction or is traumatized by way of that for someone who hasn't had it under control, someone who has maybe tried to seek reform and then and then isn't able to break that cycle. That was filled with so much emotion, and I thought that was the realest shit. And to know that this started, and we think about like the the potential that this entity latched onto her because she has this unresolved trauma, to know that this all started for her at such a young age only reinforces my point that she deserved a happier ending. Life with this, she's never gonna come out of this perfect. She's never gonna come out of this a hundred percent, but she deserved to live and to survive and to find the new meaning of survival through that.

SPEAKER_02 50:36

And you know, that's a great segue for me to talk about my favorite scene because I think of this moment, it's super small. My favorite scene is when she arrives at her nephew's birthday party and she's practicing smiling in the mirror. Yeah, and thinking of the context of everything that you just said, layered in with what she's witnessed so far. It just made me think of like that scene is a perfect quick visualization of what they were trying to say in this whole movie, which is like, again, I've talked to at nauseum of the smiling, masking your true emotion. At this point, she is a therapist that is having to probably at length tell people this same mantra of smiling just to feel a little better, like trying to think positive. So all of these things that I'm sure she's tried to practice with her clients. She's having to do that in her nephew's birthday party, facing a mirror, trying to practice how to be happy on top of everything that she's already faced. And how many times have we done that? I know that I have. I saw that scene and I was like, I have been there trying to fake a smile and pretend so that I continue to seem like everything's okay and continue to just push aside all that I've been through so that I can survive this birthday party, so that I can survive going to work or diving into work constantly. And sometimes it's just you're just not good at it. You can't do it.

SPEAKER_04 51:55

Yeah. Which is, I think, the danger of when people just look at someone and say, You should smile more, or what's wrong if you're just not obscenely smiling? Like, this is such a thing for me. This is such a pet peeve of mine. It's I I tend to have a stoic face, even when I'm perfectly happy and like content and just like chilling. And the second someone comes up, what's wrong? I'm like, wow, it's insulting that you think something's wrong with me just because I'm not grinning fucking ear to ear. You know what I mean? Like that's a bit much. But for sure, to think about that and like the need to rehearse and the need to put effort in, it really is the mask that we all put on every single day, right? When we think we have to go to a place and check our check our lives at the door and try to just get through something. And we have to be okay. We have to acknowledge that it's okay to not be okay. You know what I mean? Like once you can acknowledge that, then we can find a way forward. But the exhaustion that comes with the constant energy that you're that you're putting into trying to keep up appearances, man, it only adds more fuel to the fire.

SPEAKER_01 53:00

That scene is also good because it adds another layer showing that how showing how she hands off that trauma to her nephew. True. Literally, here's mine, now it's yours. You're gonna join in on this with me. And then later on, when he's looking through the window at her in her car, oh yeah, he's affected. He is now set up. When the next loop comes back and that thing shows back up, he is like ready to go for that demon to take over.

SPEAKER_00 53:24

Yeah, that's a good point.

SPEAKER_02 53:25

Wow, I didn't even really think of it that way, too. You're right. The nephew as well. Not being primed for the demon.

SPEAKER_00 53:30

Primed for the demon. Look at that.

SPEAKER_02 53:32

They sell that primer at Home Depot.

SPEAKER_00 53:33

Oh my gosh. I'd buy it.

SPEAKER_02 53:35

But you know, now that now that you bring up the nephew, actually, let's and we're talking so much about Rose, so let's just let's keep at it, right? There's this moment that I think is so pivotal to her character, especially that we've talked so much about her being a child, witnessing her mom, the neglect that she faced, all these other things. Now, Mac, you bring up such a good point about her passing that on now to her nephew. When she is battling it out with this therapist, I loved how they represent that childhood fear in the sense of the angle of the camera where they're making the therapist seem so big, and she's like going down the stairs and she's screaming, she's feeling so small. Like that's that's that moment, that's that childhood trauma in that scene right there, speaking. Oh, yeah. And it's only reinforced again in the end when this mom is just so fucking massive, and once again she's feeling so small. It's like that repetitive, like underlying nature of as a child, that trauma that you face, it never really goes away, and it's there for a good while.

SPEAKER_00 54:37

Yeah, for sure. No, I mean, definitely, even just leading up to that moment of like the of the therapist like coming at Rose down the stairs, and all of that we're unpacking there, but even just that scene leading up to it where they're on the couch talking, that was one of the scenes that actually creeped me the fuck out. Like, and it's not that it wasn't something that I may have not like I probably have could have seen that coming from a mile away, but just just the the buildup of talking to the therapist and then getting the phone call, and it's the therapist on the phone and realizing that you're not really sitting with the therapist, and then there's that evil grin. Like that one actually made the hairs on my neck stand up.

SPEAKER_02 55:23

That was definitely scary. Yeah, I agree a hundred percent. That one fucked me up for sure.

SPEAKER_04 55:28

So that one didn't fuck me up, but what could have fucked me up had I been maybe a lot younger and or at least like less initiated into the genre was the moment it's giving the call is coming from inside the house when we have that whole scene with uh her and the security alarm. And that is something that I think unpacks so much more about her character, and again, like really stacks on to the layers of why I struggle with this movie, because we have this moment where we get the phone call, we get the security person asking for the password or the passcode, and she says, Are you sure? Are you sure you didn't let anyone in, Rose, or let anything in? And that was a chilling moment. It was very, very sobering.

SPEAKER_00 56:12

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 56:13

The other side of that, a moment later, she realizes that it's a hallucination, that she doesn't have the phone in her hand, that it does ring just a moment later. And it's the power of that and that experience, that very real experience, that absolutely kills me. Because I think about like my own struggle with PTSD, and I think about like the moments that I have had a panic attack and then been completely like convinced that I'm seeing someone who's really not there, or like feeling like they're there, or like like uh being completely like paralyzed in fear, like reliving this in my mind. This is the other complexity here because she has these moments and she's going throughout the movie and she's still not sharing a whole lot. She tries to share with her partner who does not receive it well, right? Does not meet her with empathy. And obviously, by the time she tries to open up to him, things are a little far gone, right? This is why daily maintenance is important. This is why processing is important. And I think it's really interesting that for a therapist, she hasn't leaned into cognitive behavioral therapy or processing therapy or anything like that, because her deflection is to help others. Her deflection is to repent. And the cross that she bears for giving up on her mom and not helping her mom when her mom asked, her burden is to then help everybody else except for herself, because she doesn't think that she deserves that. And that is fucking wild, right? Like to think and see this poor woman who has dealt with so much since she was a child, who as a child made an emotional decision. Man, it it's just so fucking intense, which is why it kills me more that she has a death sentence. I still don't think she deserved it.

SPEAKER_02 57:54

That's fair. You put it that way, and I'm thinking to myself, what's also worse is that the people that are around her are also inconvenienced by her, despite the fact that she chooses to help everyone else and and whatnot, right? Deflects and all these other things instead of helping herself. Like her sister Holly, I hope that demon comes around and and gets her too. Yeah. I hope she's next. I literally chose my opening quote because I know it was honestly kind of like a joke, also on me as a person. But like at the same time, talk about in being inconvenienced. Your sister literally just witnessed something horrific, and you're talking about, and I quote, my weekdays are literally impossible. Like, oh my gosh, I'm just so busy. I'm just so overworked. How dare you forget my like your nephew's birthday? Fuck you. And you saw your patient just slaughter themselves. Like, sorry, not my problem.

SPEAKER_04 58:45

What? I think that's the other element that I can relate to, though, because like considering like my trauma stems from assault or like physical violence, right? But there there are other elements of my service where I had to document dead bodies and like found suit people who committed suicide on the ship, or people who got into a fight, or like were completely destroyed physically from like freak accidents, right? And I think about like having to photograph dead bodies. And I see all this the this stuff, right? And it's like stuff that I like process over the years, but then there was a moment not too long ago where I was with someone who's very close to me in my life, and she asked, Are you happy? And I said, No, I'm not. And it's okay because I'm working on it. As dark as I have been, I'm not as bad as I have been, but I have to acknowledge that and it's okay. She's like, Well, what do you do to be not unhappy? And I'm like, This is why we have therapy. But then moments later in the conversation, I gave an example. I'm like, see, this is why I'm not happy. And then she's like, brushes it off, right? Like again, meeting with that lack of empathy or that lack of understanding or patience or tolerance for the situation. And I think that, like, if this movie had played more into that angle and how important it is to have that support system, then maybe it could have been a little bit different. But yeah, I don't know. This is me soapboxing and pouring too much into something.

SPEAKER_02 59:55

No, and I think at the end of the day, what sucks in a sense is I agree, people should be supporting her, and in the opposite side, they're all gaslighting her. This is like gaslighting extreme. Not a single person. Well, you know what? Okay, fine. We're gonna give it to um, where's my boy, Joel? Which, by the way, considering The Last of Us, I have to say that right now, considering the last of us, what a time to be rewatching this movie with a character named Joel. Not the point. But honestly, like Joel, okay, he believes her. But even in the end, doesn't even trust her enough to face this on her own. Granted, I liked, I think it was you, Mac, that said, okay, it could be like having that support system and going into this like togetherness, right? I I guess I could have seen it that way, which you're right, I didn't. So that's fair to me. I instantly saw she explicitly told you that she was gonna do this. And quite frankly, technically, she probably would have survived had he not shown up. But he did, anyways, and now here we are. So I think everybody around her just gaslighted her constantly, constantly, rather than just providing some support. But ultimately, in some ways, maybe she played that role herself when she was dealing with patients, right? This is not really there. This is, you know, like you're not seeing this. I mean, in the beginning, when she is talking to Laura, Laura's desperately trying to get her to understand. And she is just being, I mean, she's doing her job, which I get.

SPEAKER_04 1:01:23

I know what you're experiencing feels incredibly real, but it can't hurt you. There is an element of coldness there.

SPEAKER_03 1:01:29

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:01:30

And I think part of that coldness is because of everything that she has unaddressed in her own life. Like she's approaching it from a very clinical perspective, maybe the way that she was treated clinically in the past. I think there's there's that. I think one thing that also bums me out is that even in her partner, you know, there's a moment where she talks about having a rough day. He's like, oh man, I'm so sorry. Like, what can I do to make it better? And it seems like he's being empathetic, but then that empathy is lost every time after that.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:55

I I think the difference though is like it's not how can I make it better. And sometimes we need to. Sometimes we need to fix, sometimes we can solve, but other times, like you it's not about making it better or fixing it or solving it. It's just about the fact that you're there. And I don't think they have a great example of that in this movie.

SPEAKER_03 1:02:12

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:13

You know what it is? It was reminding me of in your vows. I guess Sean, Mac, remind me if I'm wrong. Sure. There's a part that says in sickness and in health, right? Like you vow to be with your your partner, whatever, in sickness and in health. They were about to be, they were engaged, they were about to be married, and you know what? It didn't seem very in sickness and in health to me. It's not they were not prepared whatsoever for that.

SPEAKER_04 1:02:37

Oh, not the fair weather fiance.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:39

Yeah, no, Trevor definitely did not have the time of day to deal with anything that Rose was going through. Like he he was the cliche, boyfriend, husband, fiance, whatever, that just didn't buy into anything or just didn't feel like one, not only didn't did he not believe what was going on, he actively acted like he just did not have the time of day for it, and he wasn't going to put the energy into even being involved and trying to help in any way. He's like, I gotta get out of here. I just gotta go.

SPEAKER_04 1:03:10

I can't do this shit right now. Man, I've been on the receiving end of that that I can't do this shit right now. Fucking sucks. Like when you finally get to the point of opening up about something, and then they just like, oh, here you go. Okay, thanks. Bye. But let me just tell you, Mac, like going back to what you were saying about we don't need to solve everything. Sometimes you just need to be there. I was even having a conversation last night with someone, and I had started to talk about a lot of things that I've been feeling in my life that I haven't really fully processed. It's one of those things that you just kind of endure and you're just like, okay, I'll get to the other side of it at some point. But I was sharing like what the last three years of my life have looked like and what the current environment and what the current situation is. And at the end of it, they were just like, Man, that really sucks. I'm so sorry that's happening to you. I'm like, oh well, don't apologize for something you didn't do. Like, that seems weird. They're like, no, it's not about like taking ownership of it or like I it's not my problem to solve, right? Like, this is something that you are experiencing, but you still deserve kindness and you deserve better than the situation that you're in. And that's that really sucks. And sometimes you'd be surprised how much better that can make a person feel. Like, I fucking felt on top of the world after that. I'm like, okay, I'm not crazy. This shit, this shit do be sucking sometimes, and it's okay. It's gonna be fine.

SPEAKER_02 1:04:19

Yeah, it's a it's a validation in just a small thing. It doesn't have to be a whole extreme proclamation of anything, but just that a little thing like that can do a lot more.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:27

The example we get from her sister and brother-in-law is it's a rough one, but it is a hundred percent most people. That is the reaction most people give. The reaction we get from her fiance is the reaction that most people give. And it's sad, but that's just the truth of it. So I don't think it's necessarily a bad thing that that's how those characters acted in terms of storytelling, because unfortunately, that's just the majority of human beings. And and it's rough. I I do wish there was another character who showed, you know, the right example. Like her ex-boyfriend is headed in that direction 100%. Um but it's but it's tough for her, obviously, because the closest people in her life really can't be there with her through these things. I mean, her sister just like brushes her away as like, you're just like mom, you're a loony, you're out of here.

SPEAKER_02 1:05:18

And that is why this demon will get her next. I can't wait.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:23

Well, yeah. Well, it's gonna get the sun, then the sun's gonna get her, and it's just gonna be a chain. Take out the whole fucking family.

SPEAKER_02 1:05:29

Oh, wait a minute.

SPEAKER_04 1:05:30

I take all that back then. Got him. It's sad, and that kid deserved better. You know, he seems like a little sweet, it's a little sweet boy. He didn't seem like a little brat or anything, which I think he could have been giving brat energy based on who his parents are, right? But he seemed like a gentle soul, and I hope he breaks the cycle. I really do. And look, folks, I know we've been talking about some really deep shit. Can I tell you what my best part of this movie was? It's the lollipop song at the end of the movie, obviously. That shit is on one of my playlists. On my grandpa buys playlist, I fucking love it, it's so good.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:00

Nice.

SPEAKER_02 1:06:00

You know what my thing, my worst part is about this movie. It's so small. It's really probably not even the worst part, but damn, did it annoy me? The title sequence was so off-putting. And like it I feel like it just cheapened what just happened in the movie, to be honest, because it was giving, well, it reminded me of like Barbarian, but in a bad way, or like, you know, all these other like modern movies now with the title seat is just so like in your face, such loud sounds. And why? I don't get it. I even tried to Google it, like, was there really a thought process as to why this title sequence was like this? Couldn't find a thing. So if someone can send it to me, I'd be curious.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:37

It was abrupt.

SPEAKER_04 1:06:38

There is a thing. Please. Finn knew from the start that he wanted the film's title card to be very anxiety-inducing. An earlier version failed the Harding test, which examines how triggering an image is to photosensitive viewers. So he was basically like, fuck you to Mac specifically.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:52

Nice.

SPEAKER_02 1:06:53

Wow. Alright.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:54

Well then Big Slap in the face.

SPEAKER_02 1:06:56

Okay. I guess like that rationale, cool. You clearly are better at Googling than I am, which checks out obviously for you know obvious reasons, like this show. But I still feel like it was off-putting.

SPEAKER_01 1:07:08

Well, let me tell you about my best part, and that is the subtle glimpses of the demon that we get in the darkness. When she sees Laura standing there and it's just like staring at her, not doing anything super crazy, not not like moving in weird, ghostly manners, just standing there. That was so effective. And I wish we got more of that from this demon. I really wanted more it follows energy from the demon.

SPEAKER_04 1:07:32

I wanted less, but that's fine.

SPEAKER_00 1:07:34

Well, well, look here, Mac, I agree. I think I loved the moments where we see the entity lurking in the shadows. But let me tell you, the worst part of this movie for me was also something that you also enjoyed, which was the look of the demon at the end. Like I thought it sucked. Well, not only did I think it sucked, it looked, it made it feel so over the top and I don't know, almost funny, like almost cartoony. Like it just took me out of any seriousness that had, you know, built up throughout the film and just threw it out the window for me. I I didn't, I did I didn't like the look of it. It didn't need to be in there. Less is more here for sure. Don't ruin everything you did to make the film genuine and genuinely creepy by making a point to use practical effects and actual smiles, like with no visual effects added, and then ruin it by vomiting a bunch of special effects and CGI at you for no reason at all. Like it just don't understand why it had to be there at all.

SPEAKER_01 1:08:37

I do love the look of it, and honestly, I wish they would have picked one or the other. I think I would have been much happier if we got more of one, but not both.

SPEAKER_02 1:08:47

If you were to ever re-watch this though, are you gonna look at that mom or that demon and think of the mom from Barbarian?

SPEAKER_04 1:08:54

I'm gonna think of several other women before I think of the mom from Barbarian, and it's all gonna be played by Javier Potet. Fine, fine, fine.

SPEAKER_02 1:09:03

Okay. But in all seriousness though, like this movie is definitely on the heav on the heavier side than I had realized when I first watched it. So although this is like my second time watching this film, I think I'm gonna give it a beat for sure before I re-watch it. I'm I I think in general, it's going to be rewatched. It's just gonna be a while until I do it.

SPEAKER_04 1:09:21

Yeah, I think I'm good. I'm done here.

SPEAKER_00 1:09:24

Yeah, that's not surprising. I mean, look, I've watched this film twice now as well. I don't really plan to watch it again anytime soon. I'm sure I'll watch it again sometime down the road. I don't know when that's gonna be. It's probably gonna be quite some time from now, but um no plans to see it anytime soon after watching it twice in the last, I don't know, six months.

SPEAKER_01 1:09:45

Speaking of a beat, this movie can beat it. I think once was enough. I don't I don't want to be sad when I'm sometimes you you want to feel emotion, but that's like during a scene you wanna you wanna empathize with the character. I think leaving a film feeling more depressed is not something I am after. And the ring now seems jovial after watching this.

SPEAKER_04 1:10:06

Okay, but that's fair, because that's probably fact. Yeah, I still didn't like that one either. This just really is not my flavor of movie. It really isn't.

SPEAKER_02 1:10:15

No shit. Oh my gosh.

SPEAKER_04 1:10:17

I'm realizing well, no, because I love It Follows. It follows is fucking amazing. But here it is. I am tired of people seeing something spooky and then having a countdown for how long they have to solve the fucking mystery. Every movie is a race against the clock. I don't need it spelled out this way. You have seven days, you have four days, you have undisclosed amount of days, but I promise you're gonna die soon, eventually, if you don't figure this out. I'm good on all of it, and with that, folks, Smile from 2022 has really divided our household tonight, earning two hacks and two slashes. Now we've certainly had a robust discussion here, if not a little bit sad at times, but it doesn't end a year by any means.

SPEAKER_02 1:11:02

We want to know what you think. I need to know if you that have seen this movie, if you think that the demon looks like the mother from Barbarian, I'm going to stand planted on this soapbox and gather a troop of people that might think this way, because I think it's uncanny. But please let us know. You can do that by joining in on the conversation by hanging out with us for free in our Discord. Click the link in our show notes to sign up.

SPEAKER_01 1:11:27

And if you enjoyed listening to this episode more than I enjoyed watching this movie, consider becoming one of our patrons. Visit patreon.com slash hacker slash to enjoy more of the show with early access, extended episodes, bonus content, and live shows.

SPEAKER_04 1:11:39

We'll see you next time, folks, and remember, you can't escape your own mind.

SPEAKER_00 1:11:44

I'll stay with you forever.