333: Orphan (2009)

SPEAKER_00 0:04

Come with me, little darling, on a magic carpet ride.

SPEAKER_03 0:12

Greetings and salutations, and welcome to Hackerslash. If you're joining us again, welcome back. We have to talk about last night. If this is your first time listening, welcome to the party. We are a horror movie review podcast dedicated to telling you whether a movie is a hack.

SPEAKER_01 0:26

A total joke? A waste of time.

SPEAKER_03 0:28

Or a splash. Totally killer. Pun intended. We believe horror is for everyone, and as such, we're randing these movies with the perspective we've gained from our varying walks of life and the flavors of fear we fancy most. My name is Chris, I'm your friendly neighborhood splasher enthusiast, and this week I'm joined by the classic horror connoisseur Sean.

SPEAKER_01 0:46

I'll cut your hairless little prick off before you figure out what it's for.

SPEAKER_03 0:50

And the paranormal paramour, Makes. I know, they fuck. The people have spoken, and our patrons have decided we're covering a 2009 psychological horror film produced by none other than Leonardo DiCaprio. The film drops us into the story of a family navigating the waters of grappling with unimaginable loss. In their search for solace, they welcome a sweet nine-year-old girl into their home. But beneath her innocent exterior lurks a dark and disturbing reality that begins to unravel their lives. This week, after winning 59% of the overall patron vote, we're talking about Orphan.

SPEAKER_04 1:25

This movie was nominated by Marnie, who said, I think it's very underrated and has one of the best twists in horror history.

SPEAKER_03 1:32

Well, we'll see if we underrate it here tonight, but Sean Bings, who's seen this one before?

SPEAKER_01 1:36

Yeah, I feel like I've seen this one before a long ass time ago, but I literally remember nothing from this film, so we're gonna treat this one as if I've never seen this one before.

SPEAKER_04 1:48

Really? Wow. I feel like I just have this movie ingrained in my brain. Absolutely. I do want to admit though, today I learned it was produced by DiCaprio.

SPEAKER_00 1:59

Same.

SPEAKER_04 2:00

Actually, more recently, I saw it as a part of my spooky season this past October, and then I obviously rewatched it again now, but never noticed that it was produced by DiCaprio. So interesting. But yeah, I I feel like this film is just one that you always remember your f first viewing of. So I'm surprised that you went into this not remembering a thing, or kind of like fresh for the most part. I remember seeing it in theaters with my friends and leaving with my jaw on the literal ground, never feeling the same way about a particular scenario ever again. Man, I feel like we're on maybe on the other spectrum of experiences when we re-watch this. I wish I could go into this fresh, because that would be very unique. That's what I hear.

SPEAKER_03 2:39

Yeah, this is certainly one of those movies where you can't unring the bell, at least for me, no matter how long it's been since I've seen it. And for me, I mean the year was 2010. I was out to sea. We got shipped this film on a cassette to play on our shipboard television circuit, and I had taken over the lineup for playing movies on the ship, and I just did a bunch of horror movies back to back to back to back to back. It was fucking great. And I remember watching this in the control room one night, sitting in like a fake leather like vinyl couch, and I was just cozy as fuck. And then some of the things that unfold in this movie started to go, and I was like, wait, what? So I remember the shock and awe of that. Now, I'm a different person than I was back then. My style of and my preferences and my taste for horror are much different than they were back then. So I was really curious to see how I would feel about this going into it with that level of surprise and shock completely removed.

SPEAKER_01 3:37

Yeah, I could see having watched this one and like remembering the movie, I could see going into it what you would expect. I think remembering nothing from this film and given just the title alone, one could only really expect that this movie was gonna just be about some orphan doing some fucked up shit. Some sort of horror version of Problem Child or something.

SPEAKER_04 4:00

That's incredible. I didn't have many expectations or anything going into it because I've seen it so many times and I just watched it so recently. But I'll tell you what I felt, and this is what I've always felt watching this. You can still feel disturbed or or spooked by our good ol' Esther. I I feel like. As the years go by, I can see how if you were to see this for the first time now, it would be a little bit perhaps more predictable or you know, maybe catch on to a couple things, which I think is just a shame. But there's definitely some character tropes here that are a little oversaturated. There's definitely some plot points that are maybe a little bit of roll of the eye type nature, but I can easily overlook it because I'm always entertained watching this, despite knowing the plot twist. I have such a good time.

SPEAKER_03 4:50

Man, I wish I had a good time watching it this time around. It's not one that I find completely boring. I'm a little desensitized by psychological horror films right now. So while this hits and it's good and it's effective, and we have some great performances in this movie, there's something about it that I think lacks the overall sense of dread I remember feeling watching this the first time. And maybe it's because of the level of shit that we've gotten with psychological horror films in the last few years. It was more like, oh damn, looking back, I can appreciate the layers here. That's crazy. But not like, okay, am I am I here to get spooked?

SPEAKER_01 5:33

Wow. You're really out here just saying, like, oh, I like what you did there, you know. You're just kind of like the proud parent, just like, look, look at look at what I taught. You know what I mean? Like that, I get the feeling. I think we're gonna align on some things. I think I see where you're coming from. I do also think going into this with a pretty fresh perspective and not really remembering anything, including the twist and everything that everyone raves about with this film. There is a little bit of this. Is the acting good in this area? Is the acting bad in this area? Is some of the look of this movie good? Some of it's bad. There's back and forth with it. You still get some of that really good mystique where you're trying to figure out exactly what's going on here. I don't think that I ever felt what we get at the end, but I definitely was trying to figure out what was this, you know, little girl all about and all that stuff. There is some tension, there is some suspense in this film. There's always just something's just always a little bit off while watching this one, but I do see also where you're coming from, Chris, of like maybe being disinterested a little bit and not necessarily fully invested. I can see that even without having remembering this movie from the first time that I watched it. So I can see both sides of that.

SPEAKER_03 6:52

And I think maybe a portion of why I feel that way is because I am compelled by Esther. I am compelled by our leading lady, our mother in this film, but I don't give a fuck about the dad, and I think I just struggle.

SPEAKER_01 7:10

We're gonna talk about that dad. Can I just say I'm holding my tongue until the second half for that guy?

SPEAKER_04 7:15

We both are. I do want to say I did have a little bit of a disappointment with this one, and I kind of hinted at it already. It it really is the plot twist of it all. Obviously, in the early 2000s, it hit and it hit hard, and I feel like people were shook as hell. But going back to what you said earlier, in terms of it being very oversaturated, this psychological horror subgenre, people are getting smarter. And so when you are re-watching this, you can catch on so quick.

SPEAKER_01 7:48

I can see that.

SPEAKER_04 7:49

And really what it is is that you not only can catch on so quick, but it's also just a lot harder to not have been spoiled about this one because Esther is such an iconic horror icon in at least in the last millennia, I would say definitely. It's a little hard to kind of avoid the spoiler of it all, but I re-watched this one recently with a good friend of mine, and it was his first time watching it. Instantly he caught on. Instantly. And I was like, wow, what the hell? Like, was I an idiot in the early 2000s?

SPEAKER_01 8:20

No, some people are just good at that shit.

SPEAKER_03 8:23

But hold on. I don't know that that's fair to you, Binx. Because you just told us, right? For our listeners who are not patrons, over in our B side, we're talking about the inspiration for this film. And we can't spoil all of it here, but you just told us about a recent incident in Hyalea that is very similar. Well, not to the extent of this fucking movie, of course.

SPEAKER_04 8:44

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 8:45

But I'm just saying, at this point in time, we've heard stories about this on the news.

SPEAKER_04 8:50

Yeah, that's true. And again, I think that's a big part of it, also, is like in the early 2000s, that was not happening as much, or at least not that we were aware, or not on the news, all of that. There's one particular movie that was referenced that my friend referenced to, didn't come out at that point, which I'll say in the spoiler zone, but there's lots of things in media, I think, whether it be real or not, that could help you along put the pieces together. So I would say or recommend, if possible, try your darnest to just let the movie happen to you, you know. Don't try to solve too too much or look too into it. Hopefully you don't get spoiled so that you can enjoy this plot twist because it's really worth it. And at the very least, the production of the whole film, let's leave it vague, right? They deserve their kudos in terms of this plot twist.

SPEAKER_01 9:38

Truly. You don't have to guess what's happening, just kind of live in the moment with this film for sure. I think will go a long way. I do think the plot twist is probably the most surprising thing about the film. I'll agree with that, but also just some of the acting. Not necessarily Vera Farmiga, right? Like obviously, we know she's great, we love her, that's wonderful. But what we get from Isabel Thurman, right, or Esther, was surprisingly good. I think that acting, and we'll talk about it more when we break down characters in the second half, was super surprising from a child actress and super cool to see. But my biggest disappointment with this film is aside from the one character that we're gonna talk about later on, I think I just don't know how I feel about some of the logic in this storyline. I know I shouldn't look too far into movies sometimes, but when a movie is trying to take itself really seriously, I have to question some of the choices that are made here. And so there's some logical things that just don't add up for me, and we'll break that down.

SPEAKER_04 10:43

And that's probably the scariest part of it all, because I have to agree the logic here is not sound, and that's what's frightening is that people are really falling for some of the things that are happening in this film. I'm trying to keep it vague, friends, but it it's just scary how true this is. Let's put leave it at that.

SPEAKER_01 11:02

Yeah, I don't think this film is really gonna scare you too much. Maybe from adopting a child, which is terrible, or at least think twice about it. That's really the only thing, like, that I feel like you're really gonna be, you know, a little bit on the fence with here. This one definitely does have some jump scares, though. I think it might spark a heartbeat or two, but outside of that, I don't really see anyone walking away from this movie with any real sense of being horrified.

SPEAKER_03 11:28

Yeah, I I was horrified by some of the sex we get in the movie, so I think that's I mean, at one point this guy Horrified. I mean it was This guy's like a walking carpet, so that was pretty disgusting.

SPEAKER_04 11:40

Not the walking carpet, but you best believe that I'm gonna say some things about that in the spoiler zone.

SPEAKER_00 11:46

Come with me, little darling, on a magic carpet, right?

SPEAKER_03 11:49

Yeah, that's a good song, though. Oh, you don't know. Oh no. Aside from the intimacy of it all, I think the scariest thing in this movie is watching the the deterioration of love. And you have such an interesting range between these characters, and that's why I say what I say about our husband, our father in this movie, because there are so many different slices of him that we get from different perspectives, and you see people going through incredible emotional distress and going through a very big hardship, and there are good sides and bad sides to a lot of these characters. So I do think the idea of walking through life with someone you love and seeing a lot of the things that happen in this movie take place and how that shifts and changes your dynamic, that can be scary. Fuck else isn't scary in this film. There's nothing in here. I think there's like some tension, some moments where you might squirm a little bit and you're like, ooh, I really hope it plays out differently than what I expect might happen shortly. But that's about it. But I I will give it credit. I know this is a story that we've heard before, like you know, Binks we mentioned earlier. You've heard this on the news. There are elements about this. But when this movie came out, it felt very different.

SPEAKER_01 13:05

It definitely felt different. It feels fresh, even though you know we have had many evil kid type horror movies. You know, we have the good son comes to mind, right? We have the omen, of course. You can't mention evil kid horror movies without mentioning the omen, but this one definitely feels fresh despite that familiarity to this old type of tale. And then when you bring the third act into the ending, that's where it really separates itself and allows it to really be its own entity among these evil kid type horror movies.

SPEAKER_04 13:42

And I think that we want to not underestimate the fact that to have a child as an antagonist in a film is very interesting. Like that's an interesting approach to take. But yeah, I a few years prior to this, we had the omen, like the remake of the omen. And then, I mean, just in general, though, we have the omen. That's what first comes to mind when it comes to this film, right? I think how they go about the plot twist or the deeper layer to this film, that's kind of cool. Now, cool for 2009. I don't know if necessarily that charm of it or like that shock factor is as strong in 2024, but original in that moment. And I really emphasize that because that theater experience, at the very least, it felt original as fuck to everybody in that theater. I'll tell you that much. Left it fucking questioning yourself and everyone around you. It was just, it hits. So at the very least, the cultural impact, maybe we can call it that.

SPEAKER_03 14:43

But how did the ending hit in the theater? I didn't have the experience of watching this in a movie theater, so I watched this alone in a fucking dark room.

SPEAKER_04 14:51

Oh, I'll tell you, screaming. I will never forget that. I I almost like full on jumped out of my chair, looked at my friends, I was like, what the fuck? It was crazy. I questioned everything. I was so mind-blown. And it's again, with the amount of times that I've seen this film, maybe as I get older too, I'm like, dude, you know, like, yeah, I guess you can maybe piece it together. And then my friend who literally got it in 0.5 seconds, I do think it has a lot to do, like you said, Chris, with what's going on in present day. Then we've got lots of other films that kind of approach you know the the plop twist a bit. But in 2009, that shit hit me. I was in high school, I was freaking out. I was like, oh hell no. Question your freaking little brothers and your little sisters, man.

SPEAKER_01 15:36

Question everything.

SPEAKER_04 15:38

Question everything, actually.

SPEAKER_01 15:39

Yeah, I don't know. I think the ending, I enjoyed the ending a lot. I just don't know that I could have ever pieced it together. Maybe if I re-watch it again and kind of play it back and look for any kind of little hints or anything, because I'm sure they are there, and maybe it's more obvious for the two of you as you watch this again for the podcast. But for me, I actually really enjoyed the ending. There was this interesting ride as we go into that reveal of the plot twist, and it just felt strange and uncomfortable. It felt disoriented. We'll talk about it, and then you figure it all out, and you're given the twist, and you're like, wow, this is some fucked up, crazy ass shit. This is not what I was expecting. And so I think it was a very successful ending all the way to the very end. Nothing mind-blowing at the very end by any means, but it was satisfying. It wasn't like to me, it wasn't this cliche type of ending. I think it was satisfying. So I actually really enjoyed the entire ride all the way to the finish.

SPEAKER_03 16:40

Yeah, this is a movie that when I first watched it gave me a sense of cathartic emotional release with the ending. I think satisfying is a really good way to put it. I think just the general blessness of my feeling and my sensation watching it around diminished my excitement for the ending. But man, did we get some performances? I don't want to tip too much away, and I can't wait till we unpack it in our favorite scenes later. But I think there's a lot to like there. I think that's why I'm also struggling with even some of my ratings for this film. So let's go ahead and start making our way there. But before we actually score this film, Sean, how would you describe the gore score?

SPEAKER_01 17:22

You know, there isn't really a lot to write home about with the gore in the movie itself. I feel like we have some brutal moments that had a lot of potential to be really gory, especially with the R rating. But instead, we have not a lot of real gore aspect. We have some pretty decent moments of cringe, but at the end of the day, this is getting a low gore score.

SPEAKER_04 17:47

And what about the animal report? We do have a very unnecessary pigeon kill via rock.

SPEAKER_03 17:53

Well, let's go ahead and get into our ratings then. Orphan from 2009 as nominated and chosen by our patrons. Is it a hack or a slash?

SPEAKER_01 18:01

Well, I'll jump in here. If I'm being honest, I really was on the fence with this movie. I know after watching this and kinda looking up some things about the movie, there is a lot of opinions about this movie. There are some people that really hold this at a very high regard in horror cinema. There is the select amount of people that just don't like the movie. And I get it. I was on the fence a little bit just because there are certain things that I don't like about the movie, and there's certain things that I really love about the movie. There is this vague disinterest about the film at times, and I think it's because even though we haven't seen this exact thing, it feels very similar in the same vein of films as I mentioned before, The Good Son with Macaulay Culkin, The Omen, or even take this all the way back to the 50s with The Bad Seed, which is a great film if you haven't seen it yet. But regardless, it feels like I've seen most of this movie before, and so throughout the movie, I felt as though I was kind of losing interest here and there with the story until the end, of course, because the twist at the end was pretty good and it brought me right back in and wanting more. I can see some people saying it was predictable, but I could never have guessed it. And I think outside of a couple of characters, the acting was hit or miss. There was a couple of really good performances, and then the rest of it was kind of like, eh, but the cinematography, beautiful, really well done. And I, if nothing else, we just love Vera Farmiga because she is just great, and her acting really carries this film along with Isabel. And so as the film progressed, and the closer we got to the end, and especially, you know, the big reveal at the end and the way that we got there, there was just something unsettling and uncomfortable about the delivery, and the more I think about it, the more I feel like I really appreciated the film. So I was going to drop this movie off at the doorstep of the orphanage, never to be seen again, but instead I found myself adopting it, and I'm for, you know, it's a slash.

SPEAKER_04 20:10

Love that for you, Sean. Love that. So you mentioned in terms of there's a group of people that hold this film in high regard. You could have just added me. That's me. I'm the people.

SPEAKER_05 20:21

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 20:22

I really do love this film. I've seen it multiple times. If you haven't been able to tell so far, you haven't been listening. I think that this film just has a something in it. It's a little bit of charm. And I agree. You have seen this before, but somehow you're always gonna have something to talk about, you know, when it comes to this film. You're gonna always leave watching the film, wanting to comment about something. It's one of those few films that either you remember the first time you've seen it, you remember the last time you saw it, you remember what your reaction was to the twist, something. Anything, right? And I think that that's special. Whether you found it predictable or not, sure, I can see, and and maybe there's some controversy to that in terms of does predictability determine whether the film is good or not? You know, we can get into that debate whether tonight or some other time, but we can I think agree that sometimes some people feel like, oh, I guessed XYZ about a thriller or psychological horror, therefore terrible. And I feel like that's doesn't have to be the case. Sometimes some of these horror films can just be a good time. It can just simply be a good time. You can have fun, you can have comments of the parents always wanting to fuck and it's being weird. You can comment about, you know, the children and their acting. I believe that Esther's acting is great, maybe the other kids not so much. Always something to take out of this experience, and that I think is fantastic. So I'm for sure giving this one a slash for the simple fact that I love talking about it. It's one of those films that I would love to hear our listeners' experiences and what they think about it, patrons, and you know, not many times do I find a horror film. Like that. So yeah. Slash for sure.

SPEAKER_03 22:02

You know, Banks, I think there's something to be said about predictability. And if I could equate it to a dance, I think I'd explain it this way. It's like having such an intimate connection to a song that's playing that you've never heard, but being able to anticipate the next step and being able to move in rhythm with it. And that doesn't make the song bad. It doesn't make it a bad experience just because you can sense what's coming. Where I think people struggle with films, and maybe more people struggle with a movie like this, is they think, oh, they wanted to shock me. They wanted me to never see it coming, and therefore it's bad because I know what's happening. But this is a movie that tells you exactly what it is every step of the way. It's just about whether or not those hints and clues make sense in context. I can admire the technical execution of that. The reality is I struggled to get through this movie this time around. I last saw it 14 years ago, and it was a great time. I think for me, there is that disinterest that picked up for me, and it was hard to remain invested. But where this movie falls for me is squarely on the shoulders of Vera and Isabel, because without their prominence and without their execution, this movie could have very easily been a hack. There's also this really compelling swelling of action in the third act as it makes its way to the ending, and it feels like that's just enough payoff for that wandering disinterest to be well worth it. So while it's not a hundred percent my cup of tea, and maybe I'm just in my dumb bullshit era, and I just want things that are I think are fun, it's still a slash. And with that, Orphan from 2009 has earned a universal slash. Now you can find this movie streaming online. Pause, go check it out, and then join us in the second half so we can dive into these twists and turns together. We'll see you in a bit.

SPEAKER_04 24:27

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SPEAKER_03 25:16

Welcome back, folks. You're now entering the spoiler zone for Orphan from 2009, which is under Universal Slash. Now we have a lot to unpack here, but before we get into the specifics of these ratings, Sean, let's go through those kills.

SPEAKER_01 25:27

Yeah, let's go through them because overall we actually have a total kill count of nine kills in this movie, even though only three really stand out because the rest are really just mentioned as events that took place prior to the events of the film, but we'll put them in there. But ultimately, we get a baby-sized kill count for a child-sized killer. Yeah. So let's break into these. What were your favorite kills?

SPEAKER_03 25:52

I want to start off with the year of fuck them kids making a comeback. Fuck Esther Coleman.

SPEAKER_01 25:58

Big time.

SPEAKER_03 25:59

Great death. I'm not your fucking mommy. 10 out of 10, terrific.

SPEAKER_01 26:03

Oh, the kick to the head, too, and the way the neck snapped if you walk. You're like, play that shit back. Put it in slow mode. That shit did not look great.

SPEAKER_03 26:11

That's a shit I was afraid my neck would do if I did too many somersaults as a child. Oh my god.

SPEAKER_01 26:16

Well, if you land on your head wrong.

SPEAKER_04 26:18

Yeah, I guess. Sheesh, that was one hell of a kick for sure. Yeah, that that was pretty brutal. I do want to say a non-traditional kill, because I think it was horrendous. The roses.

SPEAKER_01 26:28

The roses.

SPEAKER_04 26:29

That this bitch cut off the hypothetical, you know, death of their unborn child. Which you know, with the rose when she cut those roses and she presented them to her, I was like, oh bitch, I would kill you right then and there.

SPEAKER_01 26:46

That was hardcore.

SPEAKER_04 26:48

I would actually find a way to sharpen the stems of these roses and I would kill you.

SPEAKER_01 26:52

That's uh fighting, fighting words there, you know.

SPEAKER_04 26:56

Roses really smell like poo-poo. Oh my god. No, no, no, not good. But no, no, no. In all realness, the actual best kill, although I still feel like it wasn't even enough, is the husband, Johnny. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 27:09

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 27:10

I needed him though to like really suffer. I wanted him to be completely awake and realize how much of a dumbass he actually is. It was just not brutal enough and yet still so satisfying every time. It gets me every time, it makes me happy every time. I can't stand him.

SPEAKER_01 27:25

Yeah, you know, definitely he deserved it. This the multiple stabs to his death for sure. You know, Chris is saying out here to fuck them kids, and you will you danced around the bushes with the fucking roses, but really Jessica was the fuck them kids kill, man. That's like literally the miscarriage, and man, that's tough. That's tough. So that one has to be mentioned for sure. You know, sister Abigail, I think, pretty brutal getting her head smashed in with a hammer. That was a brutal kill right there to be able to do that. And when you're watching this movie and you don't know what the end is, but you're just thinking that you're looking at this little girl, like nine-year-old little girl, beating somebody's head in with a hammer, that's pretty intense.

SPEAKER_04 28:12

And also, let's just talk about how, in reality, though, could they really drag that body at that age? I mean, granted, I know that she's Esther's like 32 or 30 something, you know what I mean? Like, but still in that small ass body, could they actually drag dead weight like that? No fucking way.

SPEAKER_03 28:29

She's a nun, she walks in the light. There can be miracles if you believe.

SPEAKER_01 28:33

Was it snowing? Maybe it's easier to drag a body in the snow.

SPEAKER_04 28:35

No, no, they drooled they dragged her off the pavement. No way. I could barely pick up fucking Cullen. That's crazy.

SPEAKER_01 28:41

I'm just trying to remember because parts of it felt like fall and fall parts of it felt like winter.

SPEAKER_03 28:46

Many hands make light work. You're trying to make it work, Chris. It's not gonna work.

SPEAKER_01 28:50

Light as a feather, stiff as a board, you know?

SPEAKER_04 28:53

Yeah, it's witchcraft.

SPEAKER_01 28:54

It's damn witchcraft.

SPEAKER_04 28:56

No, no, absolutely not.

SPEAKER_01 28:58

Oh my gosh.

SPEAKER_04 28:59

I feel like we need to highlight just in general what Esther has also maybe done off screen, right? That I you I think you mentioned that in terms of kill counts. Like, well, she's burned I guess it was her house. Mm-hmm. She did she kill she killed people there, right? Well, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 29:14

I haven't seen it.

SPEAKER_04 29:15

That's just I mean, the title says everything you need. I mean, yeah, I guess so, that's true.

SPEAKER_01 29:19

But I think this one and yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 29:22

Burned alive. I'm terrible at lying, so I'm just gonna be quiet. I'm not gonna comment on the sequel or the prequel, sorry, because I've seen it in the point being, yes, all the other kills that she's done as well, because she's crazy and she's gotten away with a lot of shit.

SPEAKER_01 29:35

I think there's two things here for kills. I think one, you know, we talk about the animal report, but that pigeon man, that was so fucked up. That was so fucked that poor bird.

SPEAKER_04 29:46

Was it even necessary? Absolutely not.

SPEAKER_01 29:48

It was so not necessarily I mean, I guess what led afterwards, because you know, the kid felt remorse and didn't know what to do, and then Esther comes up and just smashes the thing to pieces with a rock is really impactful. But just watching the pigeon get shot and fall and be like, you know what I mean? I I would rather watch people die than animals, so that one was a tough one for sure. But I think there's an honorable mention here with Daniel, the son, because technically, obviously, he lives, but like he did get suffocated. He did flatline, he did die, and then he came back. So that is an honorable mention. We're not gonna include it in the kill count, but what a crazy turn of events that shit was.

SPEAKER_03 30:30

Fuck them kids 2024. You heard it again. It's the sequel. Yeah, it's back, and it's around this time that we started the year of fuck them kids last year. Is it it was due, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 30:42

Horrendous. But you know what? The thing with Daniel is that fuck around and find out with Esther.

SPEAKER_01 30:47

For sure.

SPEAKER_04 30:47

You think you're hot shit playing guitar hero and she's gonna fuck you up real quick.

SPEAKER_01 30:51

It's true, but you know, talking about these kids, I feel like I have to give it up for the makeup artists in this film specifically for how they made Esther look. And I think we're all gonna be aligned on that one because goddamn, like that was just so good to make you know this actress look like you know, you go from innocent girl to evil woman.

SPEAKER_03 31:13

Mind you, that this actress was only 12 years old at this time. She's 14 or 12.

SPEAKER_01 31:19

That's what I'm saying.

SPEAKER_04 31:20

Yes. I was again trying to explain this to my friend because he was like, I don't get it though, like she's a kid, but they made her look older, like she was older. I was like, no, Chris, he's like she's literally 12 years old and she's a 32-year-old. Yeah. And then he was because I can understand how if you're watching this for the first time now, knowing that there is a prequel, knowing that she plays herself again, you know what I mean? You get kind of confused and you don't necessarily understand like what's happening there. And also when you then are spoiled, you know the plot twist, and you're looking at a 12-year-old being like, wait a second, no, this can't be. And it's like, oh, it can be. Just wait. Just you wait, let it cook. And when it's revealed that she's 32, you fucking believe that shit.

SPEAKER_01 32:07

It's like this whole thing. Oh my gosh, wild.

SPEAKER_04 32:10

How you make a 12-year-old look like a 30-something year old is nuts to me. So, oh yeah, that is the best part without a doubt. I do want to comment though, I want to give another again, because they were really snapping with this movie, the whole production department, the paintings as well, because it comes off very childish, and you're like, oh, you know, yeah, it's a little kid messing around and all that. But then Esther's talented and very grotesque and creepy and like a little too talented. Regardless of that, it's incredible work. My one gripe with it though, is the title card reveals that there is something to do with these paintings. It has a brief moment where the fluorescence are on.

SPEAKER_01 32:53

Oh, that's so true. The black light title card. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 32:56

Exactly. So it at that point, you're kind of like, that's odd. But for me, every time that I see that title card, I'm like, they should have never done that because anyone would be waiting, or they see her painting, and they instantly will know, oh, put a black light to it because the title card is blacklit. Just a small thing. But you know, regardless, I think the paintings are very, very cool.

SPEAKER_03 33:17

Yeah, the moment of revealing how intricate her artwork actually is reminded me of that famous quote from Til Twilight. How long have you been 17? A while. And you see how you walk through the Cullen House, Edward is playing piano with the best of them, got all these diplomas, all these graduation caps, rather, and Esther has that same energy. Esther has this okay, I'm gonna pr I'm gonna be coy, I'm gonna pretend that I'm making mistakes and then I don't know what I'm doing. I'd love to learn, but then all of a sudden she's giving it up with the best of them. It reminded me of that. This is an immortal child, and exactly why they don't make kid vampires. A hundred percent the makeup fantastic. For me, it was this way the cinematography worked with the makeup.

SPEAKER_00 34:01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 34:02

We have that moment where the makeup is running and she's washing it off of her face. The perspective and the framing on that and the composition of that, absolutely incredible. But then I also loved even the subtle nuances in the way this film is shot. Like, let's go to Daniel's POV for the very brief glimpse he gets, and it's slightly hazy as Esther tries to suffocate him and then succeeds in suffocating him.

SPEAKER_05 34:27

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 34:27

Seeing that little face come at you, like a little growly, and it's almost it was like very soft on the edges, almost giving Vaseline on the on the lens, but not quite there. It was just Chef's kiss, really great. Which actually leads into my favorite scene in the movie. What did you do, you little bitch? Bam, pitch went down. It feels like everything is coming unraveled, and what a spectacle this is. Kate knows what the fuck is up, but also who is gonna reasonably believe her? This is a girl that looks like a small child. So to go into this hospital to take the action of smacking this child.

SPEAKER_00 35:06

Ooh, damn. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 35:08

It's not a good look. It's not a good look, Kate. Listen, Kate, I'm on your team. Obviously, this bitch is crazy, right? But it's not a great look when this little kid just comes out drinking a little soda pop. It was such a great fucking moment.

SPEAKER_04 35:21

Understand that. But damn, I'd be lying. I'd be lying if I was gonna sit here and say, like, yeah, that'd be wild to believe. I'd fucking believe. I'd believe it wholeheartedly. The math maths, friends. The math maths, and it just so happens you adopt her. It just so happens all this shit is going down. I don't know. And actually, the sure fire sign is when Kate is trying to talk to Esther about the birds and the bees talk, she caught them fucking. And she flat out is just painting, like, yeah, whatever. And she turns around and says, I know they fuck. It's that, as the Cuban and me would say, La Chancla would come out for sure. Because, first of all, no kid on this planet of mine would ever curse in that manner at all. Secondly, to kind of have that response when I'm trying to have an adult conversation with you and have the birds and the beasts, be glad that I'm even having that with you to start right now at this age, and that's your response. Hell to the no. I would be like, Oh, something is not right here instantly. Your little outfit and that, you gotta go. Pack your bags and go.

SPEAKER_03 36:33

Go on now, get not in my neighborhood. Kate knows what the fuck is up. She's having these moments. Esther is showing Kate what she wants Kate to see and what she doesn't give a fuck about because she's not threatened by Kate. To her, Kate is an inconvenience, a roadblock, a speed bump in the road to John.

SPEAKER_00 36:53

Right.

SPEAKER_03 36:54

That's all she is. To then take the full scope of everything that Kate has endured, this devastating loss that would scar anyone emotionally and mentally, and then add in the alcoholism and the recovery. But cold turkey recovery, she just stopped drinking, she didn't go to AA, so there isn't like this really rigid support system, and so it's almost like those closest to her are still skeptical about it and don't believe in her.

SPEAKER_01 37:20

Yeah, and she's really struggling.

SPEAKER_03 37:22

Kate is a fucking beast, absolutely love her. It's devastating the circumstances she's in, but Esther really fucking played her like a fiddle.

SPEAKER_01 37:31

Yeah. It's really given that this game plan that Esther has doesn't work out very fucking well for her ever. I just don't understand. Because if it did, wouldn't she just be with the first husband that she stole?

SPEAKER_03 37:47

She's gotta start trying to stop fucking these men.

SPEAKER_01 37:49

Like, what is the yeah, like is it just the satisfaction of causing the chaos and then sleeping with the husband and then moving on to the next?

SPEAKER_04 37:57

No, I think it's definitely the men. Because even the paintings, she like is painting graphic sexual scenes with John. So it's definitely that she wants to fuck them, and quite frankly, it's not working out because, well, God, I would hope that they wouldn't.

SPEAKER_01 38:13

Yeah, there's some fucked up people out there, but exactly. Yeah, I just don't know. It seems like a bad game plan, you know?

SPEAKER_03 38:21

It absolutely is, but that's the entire lore to her that existed as they were developing the story for this. And it is an it's a further explanation of what we get in the film of why she attempts to seduce her fathers, and it goes back to her being molested by her own father, and her father basically moving on, finding someone else, and then telling her she'd never be a real woman.

SPEAKER_00 38:43

Well, okay.

SPEAKER_03 38:44

And it's like a really fucked up, twisted, demented some fucked up trauma piece of fucking literature to read. It's terrible.

SPEAKER_00 38:51

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 38:52

But seeing that deep-seated trauma and then seeing how this actually translates to film, yeah. I'm glad they showed the mild levels of restraint they did. Sure. Because this could have been really fucking bad.

SPEAKER_01 39:03

It definitely could have gone down a very dark path for sure. Glad for the amount that we got, because we definitely needed didn't need to go that fur that much further into that kind of shit.

SPEAKER_03 39:13

Yeah, apparently that whole fucking scene was supposed to big between her and John was supposed to be much more intense and sexual.

SPEAKER_01 39:20

Oh fuck. It was already uncomfortable.

SPEAKER_03 39:23

And then remember that this is a literal child.

SPEAKER_01 39:26

Right. That's what I'm saying. Like, as you're watching that scene, that was one of the most uncomfortable scenes in the movie, I feel like, to watch.

SPEAKER_05 39:34

We're gonna. Oh man, do I have thoughts? Do I have thoughts? Oh god.

SPEAKER_01 39:39

I know, I feel you, but I think there's a lot that this film did really well with a lot of different things throughout from start to finish. Even the beginning scenes where Kate is having the miscarriage, that whole scene was it was tense, it was unsettling, it was chaotic, it was really just strange and off-putting, but it was a very impactful way to kick this film off. Everything from the start when the nurse is pushing her like slowly, even though she's literally like bleeding out all over the floor, right? And like the nurse is still just like da da da da da. Is that how it felt? And then just all the weird shit and clearly seeing like the husband in the mask and all this weird shit. It just felt fucking weird. But then you have that awkward, intense, and real shit that could happen with couples, but the sex scene that we do get in the kitchen is just very like intense and awkward. Let me tell you, my favorite scene in this movie, I have to get into it because I absolutely loved the scene in the playground. I thought the playground scene was incredible. I loved that you get this whole scene of this little girl slowly searching the playground for Esther, and it feels like you're watching like this mini kid slasher film. Like you're getting this great cinematography of this little girl slowly walking through this little playhouse, and you're moving through room to room, and it just feels suspenseful. It feels like you're watching some kind of like slasher film walking through this house, the unknown. Where is this killer? And then boom, you get Esther popping out of nowhere, pushing her down, that quick edit flash cut, and the girl falls. I loved the progression of that scene because it felt like I was watching like a little mini horror film within a horror film.

SPEAKER_04 41:34

And that was giving very the omen as well. Now that is a very good scene, and very also fucked them kids in a different regard. That little girl had it come into her a little bit, knocking off. She was a pain in the ass for sure.

SPEAKER_05 41:46

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 41:46

She needed to be humbled immediately. And that's what really what Esther does, okay? She just puts everyone on their ass. Let's get into it a smidge because I want to highlight at the very least the amount of t if there was like a count, not even a kill count, okay? With the amount of times that Esther just lays Kate out and leaves her shook, it's unsurmountable. When she's playing the piano and she claps back in such a vicious way, oh that was nasty. And she didn't give a single fuck. She was like, Yeah, I pretended so that you could teach me. Because basically, you have nothing else to do. You sad bitch. Like, what? Esther. Come on.

SPEAKER_00 42:26

Oh my gosh.

SPEAKER_04 42:27

Jesus. You mentioned the whole thing in the kitchen.

SPEAKER_01 42:30

Oh yeah.

SPEAKER_04 42:31

Do people do that? Do that? Because these are the horniest parents I've ever seen. All right. They were trying to get it on like multiple times in this multiple times, they fuck everywhere, multiple times, and the irony of it is that they've cheated on each other.

SPEAKER_01 42:43

Kudos to them for like keeping it together.

SPEAKER_04 42:46

Quite literally, keeping their parts together constantly because it's just what's happening? You've got two young children in the house. It's like get a motel or something, get a babysitter. I don't know.

SPEAKER_03 42:57

That's the wild thing.

SPEAKER_01 42:58

Just right in the kitchen.

SPEAKER_03 43:00

Right in the kitchen, knowing that your kids are in the house.

SPEAKER_04 43:03

That they're in the house and you're gonna have to make peanut butter and jelly sandwiches on that same countertop.

SPEAKER_05 43:08

That's true.

SPEAKER_04 43:09

The fuck? That's crazy. They'd probably clean it. I hope so. Actually, John might not clean it. Exactly. Thank you. I was like, but who's the really gonna clean it, right? It's gonna be Kate because John can't be fucking bothered with n nor common sense nor hygiene.

SPEAKER_01 43:25

That's true. I mean, let's face it. John is the worst husband in the history of horror films. He is the biggest piece of shit I've ever seen. I haven't hated somebody more than I've hated this guy in a horror film.

SPEAKER_04 43:41

We need to make sure that Terrible Dad of the Year is a category for end of the year award. He will win it.

SPEAKER_01 43:48

There doesn't even need to be another option. Just put John right in there. He's an instant winner.

SPEAKER_04 43:53

He's atrocious. He is a cheat, uh a gaslighter, all this asshole. And then he has the audacity. To drink wine after a stressful day.

SPEAKER_01 44:03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 44:04

But makes Kate feel like shit.

SPEAKER_01 44:06

Yeah. It was all of the bullshit in the therapist rooms, like those things too. Just the you could just see like his reactions to what the therapist is saying and the little faces that he's making. It's just like you are such a fucking prick.

SPEAKER_04 44:22

And then the worst of it all, and maybe this is a little like controversial, but to me the worst of it all is crying and venting and just losing your shit stressed in front of your I think Esther's supposed to be nine.

SPEAKER_00 44:37

Yeah, nine.

SPEAKER_04 44:38

In in that film, right? Yeah. So to your nine-year-old, you're having that moment to your nine-year-old. I'm sorry, and I'm that's not to say that parents aren't allowed to be vulnerable in front of their kids and cry and all that. That's not what I'm saying. But you are an adult and this is a nine-year-old. You're not supposed to be venting to the to a nine-year-old about the intricacies of your stress and your problems. What in the world? It was very bizarre, especially when plot twist. She's actually 30 something. Also, why are you acting so chill with her having not only top eyeliner but waterline eyeliner, red lipstick? I would have gotten my ass beat to the ends of the earth if I showed up in front of my father with a full makeup beat like that. No way.

SPEAKER_01 45:24

At nine? Yeah, nine years old. My gosh. Absolutely crazy.

SPEAKER_04 45:29

But you know who isn't crazy? It is Kate to some extent. All right. Justice for Kate.

SPEAKER_01 45:34

Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 45:34

Verear from again, bro. She just really does it.

SPEAKER_03 45:37

She carries anything that she's in.

SPEAKER_01 45:38

She really does.

SPEAKER_03 45:39

Your girl doesn't miss.

SPEAKER_01 45:41

The portrayal of the emotions is just so good.

SPEAKER_04 45:44

And I mean, and also actually the youngest daughter, she also is really, really cute and sweet. Because here's the thing. Imagine, like, there were several times here that someone could have freaking gotten kill Daniel to be one of them, really. Like, she's saved lives, that little girl. And she's deaf. She's out here. She did. You know what I mean? She's like very young, so of course, she's going to listen to Esther. Let's give her some grace for sure. But she's smart. She puts two and two together. She does not get that from her father. I'll tell you that much.

SPEAKER_03 46:20

Ma'am, Esther is a very small target against a very big target, which is your mother. That was terrifying.

SPEAKER_01 46:25

That is true.

SPEAKER_04 46:26

Also, how did like did she fall back when she shot that gun?

SPEAKER_01 46:29

She had to have because there's no way she's not falling back with that shit. But I mean, at least she had, you know, she had it in her to like shoot that gun. I feel like not a lot of kids would be able to pick up a gun and take that shot.

SPEAKER_03 46:43

Tragically, too many kids are comfortable picking up guns and taking shots. That's the really sad part. The sad part is, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 46:49

Yeah, okay, yeah, but not at like five years old. All right? Yes. I'm not justifying anything, but there's a lot of accidental deaths. Oh no, that's just crazy.

SPEAKER_03 47:00

It's so bad. Don't make me Google it for a fact check because Oh, I don't want to.

SPEAKER_01 47:04

I don't even want to know. I'm gonna just go ahead and say that those are accidents playing around with it. You know what I mean? Yeah, but this is an intentional decision, you know, at that age. But either way.

SPEAKER_05 47:16

She's gonna need so much therapy.

SPEAKER_01 47:18

I do I do see what you're saying with Max. I think cute is the right way to describe the character, because that's really what you get the entire film is just this cute little kid. But you know, emotion-wise, it just felt like it was just cute with sad face, cute with sad face, cute with sad face, frowning, nothing super great. I'm not trying to bag on a kid, but when you compare it to what you know, uh what Esther did, what Isabel did, and probably a big age gap there, but I just feel like Isabelle really was incredible in what she was able to portray throughout the film and being this complex character, right? And she just allowed herself to become a very infamous villain in horror.

SPEAKER_03 48:03

I simply had to look up what else Ariana Engineer is in, who plays Max.

SPEAKER_00 48:09

Okay.

SPEAKER_03 48:09

She's in Resident Evil Retribution, then she's in a short film called Dreaming of Peggy Lee.

SPEAKER_00 48:15

Okay.

SPEAKER_03 48:15

And honestly, I wanna know what the fuck else she's doing. What is she up to these days? I really wanted to also look up 2001. So she was seven or eight when this movie was filmed.

SPEAKER_01 48:25

Seven or eight?

SPEAKER_03 48:26

I was considerably significantly younger than four years or so.

SPEAKER_01 48:30

Yeah, yeah, for sure.

SPEAKER_03 48:31

She really was one of the shining moments in this movie. A lot of great performances all around, but I still want to go back to the worst part of this movie being John's chest hair. Fucking disgusting. I gagged every time I saw it. Not the chest hair. I gagged every time I saw it. Maybe I was so distracted by how sh from how shitty he was by how disgusted I was by him physically, and I thought, now I'm just being mean, I should take it easy.

SPEAKER_00 48:54

Oh man.

SPEAKER_03 48:55

No.

SPEAKER_04 48:56

Well, maybe because that's ultimately that is Peter Sarsgaard's chest hair. So let's be nice to him. But John, fuck you. Absolutely. I've decided that he is a thousand percent on the Mount Rushmore of the absolute fucking worst and stupidest men in horror. I can't stand him, and I can't stand him every single time that I watch him, but I will not give him the satisfaction by never watching the film again. I will watch it again, but like, man, does that character really make it tough? He makes it tough.

SPEAKER_01 49:26

John, for sure, hands down, is probably the worst part of the movie. I am trying to piece together anything else that I would say would be like something that really brings this movie down. Other than maybe the way I feel like sometimes the film looks, if I have to like really dive into something, there is just moments where we get just scenes or shots throughout the movie. Maybe it's the lighting, but there's moments where it feels like it crosses the line between this B movie feel to this really like good quality production. There's just certain elements where we're watching shit unfold, and it just feels like I don't even know how to describe that look, but there's this really specific look when you turn on a really low budget movie and there's moments where I see that come out and then it's gone, and then it comes out and then it's gone.

SPEAKER_03 50:19

Yeah, I'm curious to see if I can see those fleeting moments on another time that I watched this film. Would I be open to it? Yes. Am I going to anytime soon? No. I think the only time I'll re-watch this is if I want to do a back-to-back with the Orphan First Kill.

SPEAKER_04 50:34

I have seen this movie already, so I feel like I've met my annual quota. I'll save it for spooky season of 2025. I love this movie. I love it dearly. I don't re-watch it as often as I'm probably coming off. I I watch re-watch it like maybe every other year, every two or three years, just because it's so fun. And it's really like one of those like I'll just sometimes even put on maybe while I'm doing the dishes or something. I just feel like it's one of those where very rarely do I know someone that hasn't seen this film. So if there's a chance that when I rewatch this in 2025, it can be with someone else that hasn't seen it. I would love that. And hopefully they don't catch on to the plot twist as quick as my friend did, or they haven't been spoiled yet. I know that that's hard because how have you not at this point, but crossing my fingers.

SPEAKER_01 51:22

I guess that's really it, right? I feel pretty indifferent about watching this one again. I get the hype around the plot twist. I can see people really appreciating this movie for what it is and what you get out of it. I don't know that it's something that's so iconic that I'm like, ooh, I gotta watch this all the time, every year. I'm just indifferent. I don't know that I really need to go out of my way to watch it again, but I also wouldn't mind throwing it on again. I am interested to see this next film that they put out there, so we'll see what that's all about. But yeah, I don't know.

SPEAKER_03 51:58

Well, time will tell if our feelings on the sequel sway our opinions on this one, but for now that you have it, folks, Orphan from 2009 is nominated and selected by our patrons as under Universal Slash. We've certainly had a robust discussion here, but it doesn't end here by any means.

SPEAKER_04 52:14

We want to know what you think. Did you guess the plot twist of this film very early on? Let us know. You can join in on the conversation by hanging out with us for free in our Discord. Click the link in our show notes to sign up.

SPEAKER_01 52:25

And if you've enjoyed listening to this trip to the orphanage, consider adopting us by becoming one of our patrons. Visit patreon.com slash hackerslash to enjoy more of the show with early access, extended episodes, bonus content, and live shows.

SPEAKER_02 52:40

We'll see you next time, folks. And remember, we all need a wake up call sometimes.

SPEAKER_01 52:44

It's boring here.