336: Dead Silence (2007)

SPEAKER_04 0:04

I'm blue if I mark green out. Greetings and salutations, and welcome to Hacker Slash. If you're joining us again, welcome back. Surrender. If this is your first time listening, welcome to the party. We are a horror movie review podcast dedicated to telling you whether a movie is a hack, a total joke, a waste of time, or a slash.

SPEAKER_01 0:28

Totally killer, pun intended.

SPEAKER_04 0:30

We believe horror is for everyone, and as such, we're renting these movies with the perspective we've gained from our varying walks of life and the flavors of fear we fancy most. My name is Chris, I'm your friendly neighborhood slasher enthusiast. This week I'm joined by the Superfly Space Guy Mac.

SPEAKER_00 0:44

I'm looking for a male about this tall, sometimes seen with a hand up his ass.

SPEAKER_04 0:48

The classic horror connoisseur Sean.

SPEAKER_01 0:51

I'll make sure you get seven minutes in heaven with my old Barbie.

SPEAKER_04 0:54

And the paranormal paramour Binx. Wow, you're so fast. The people have spoken and our patrons have decided we're covering a 2007 film from James Wan and Lee Winnell. The film takes us to a small town with a dark past that refuses to stay buried, and a man looking for answers after a tragedy is left to solve a mystery that blurs a line between the living and the spectral. Despite the prior success of its filmmakers, this film was considered a box office failure and had a short-lived theatrical run, lasting around 16 days in most theaters. Our patrons must have felt differently though, because this week we're talking about dead silence.

SPEAKER_02 1:31

This movie was nominated by Katie, who said, Growing up and basically until I found this podcast, I was very alone in my fondness for horror. My family and friends do not enjoy the genre at all, so I watched many scary movies on my own, which made them scarier. This movie was one that I wanted so desperately to watch, but I had a deep fear of dolls and dummies. With no one to watch it with, it took years for me to be able to try this one. I guess this movie marked a moment of bravery for me. It sure did, Katie. I believe that. Corny as hell. There is also a dope soundtrack for it. It's time for another doll haunting review on the pod.

SPEAKER_04 2:05

We'll see if it scares the poop out of us, Katie, but let's get started. Who's seen this one before?

SPEAKER_02 2:10

So I actually have seen this one definitely before. Now I'm not entirely confident whether I saw it in theaters or not, especially with that fun fact of it having such a small runtime. I would assume though that I saw this around the time of True Blood for sure, or definitely with my mother, because the main character is in True Blood. And although that's probably not the show you would expect to be watching with your mother, you know, what can I tell you? That's my childhood for you.

SPEAKER_01 2:36

That's so true. I didn't even link that while watching this movie again. That's so funny. I definitely didn't see this in theaters, but I definitely saw it a long time ago, maybe when it was streaming or it was available to rent or whatever it was. I don't remember. Not a theater watch, but I watched it a long time ago with an old friend of mine. But it's been so long since I revisited, and I don't know. It'll be interesting to see how this one holds up after all these years.

SPEAKER_00 3:03

Yeah, I I saw this maybe a decade ago. Gosh, it it's been a while. I had enough of a memory of it though. Like when I saw the title in the lineup, I was like, oh, I know exactly which movie this is. And I've thought about this movie, and I've thought about the ending of this movie, I think, several times over those years, and I I under actually don't know why.

SPEAKER_04 3:20

You know, I feel like I'm just gonna be on the lonely island tonight because I've never seen this one before. What ever. Let me tell you about the first time I heard about this movie. The year was 2008. I was working at Publix, I had my little crew that I closed with all the fucking time, and one time I smiled, and some person on that crew said, Oh, you look like that old woman smiling from dead silence.

SPEAKER_02 3:47

What the fuck?

SPEAKER_04 3:48

I think I was doing like a really goofy smile.

SPEAKER_02 3:51

That was an extremely savage thing to say to you. It was super savage.

SPEAKER_04 3:55

Well, you know, it's fine. I never looked it up, never tried to even investigate what the fuck it was. I've seen gifts from this movie of Billy the puppet, it's giving goosebumps.

SPEAKER_01 4:07

Definitely.

SPEAKER_04 4:08

I never once made the connection about it being James Wan until very recently when we started planning for this. So going into this, having heard that it was good for at least from everyone I know who's seen it, and not hearing anything along the lines of it being torture porn or super James Wan y, I expected this to be a decent time.

SPEAKER_00 4:31

Having seen it before, I expected all the cheese, just 100% shatter super cheesy.

SPEAKER_01 4:36

See, I didn't remember it being super cheesy, not to that extent. I remember having semi-mixed feelings about it for some reason when I first watched it, but again, it's been so long that I can't really recall a whole lot of details about the film. So really going into it, I was almost nostalgic of like, man, this brings me back to like my first apartment with one of my best and oldest friends in this world. And I remember, you know, just sitting on the couch and watching horror movies, and I remember this one being new, and we were pretty stoked for it, but then it all kind of blurs out from there. So I don't quite remember how enjoyable it was.

SPEAKER_02 5:15

Yeah, I don't think I've seen this film probably since my initial first watch. But I will say, funny enough, at work, I bring up obviously the podcast that you know that we do this, and I have a work friend of mine who always makes a point to remind me that she's a listener, actually, and she'll always remind me that Dead Silence is the movie that scares the absolute shit out of her. So when this was finally picked, because I know it's been nominated for some time now, when it was finally picked, I was telling her, I was like, Christina, we're finally doing Dead Silence. And it's weird because up until that moment when she had shared that, for some weird reason, I would confuse this with Darkness Falls, which is probably not fair at all. And it's not even related. I don't know why. It just gets jumbled into that pot for some fricking reason.

SPEAKER_01 6:08

It's kind of related.

SPEAKER_04 6:09

I don't know what I'm more concerned about. You conflating this with Darkness Falls, or the fact that you say it's not fair, and I'm wondering which one you're saying something bad about.

SPEAKER_02 6:19

Keeping it ominous, obviously. But here, so then when I'm jumbling that together, what brings me back to the fold, what reminds me about this film is the fact that it is James Wan's second film. I just gotta remember, James Juan naturally has something to do with this. Anything with creepy eyes, uh, it's probably James Wan has something to do with it.

SPEAKER_04 6:39

Speaking of those creepy eyes, though, let me tell you that the number one thing I felt when I was watching this movie was every bit of how gifable it is. There are so many moments where a jaw suddenly hangs open, eyes turn to the side. I feel like a lot of this energy that we get from ventriloquist dummies in this, honestly, a really great representation of my soul on a regular basis. I felt seen, understood, and heard by this movie. I also though felt a heavy dash of couldn't fucking be me. No, absolutely couldn't be me. If I grew up with a fucking legend of some shit and all of a sudden a ventriloquist dummy is at my door, no fucking way is that shit coming in my house.

SPEAKER_01 7:24

Yeah, come on. Come on. That's just rookie mistakes here.

SPEAKER_02 7:27

The thing is that if you've ever grown up with maybe a mom or an aunt or an Awela that collected dolls for funsies, maybe you're already prepared for this film innately, or you're triggered by it. Either way, it's not a fun time for that regard. I will say there's some serious bombastic side eye. Now that you said that in terms of Giffables, like, oof, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 7:51

Some great side-eye in this.

SPEAKER_02 7:53

Fantastic side-eye. Now, in terms of my feelings re-watching this, instantly I felt like I got hit by a wave of two mid-2000s and blue. Very blue. I forgot how blue this fucking movie is. And not like Twilight Blue, guys. No, I'm talking like a dark blue. Um, blue.

SPEAKER_04 8:13

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 8:13

Wait, is that what they're saying in that song? I had no idea.

SPEAKER_04 8:16

No, probably not, but it's like heard one version of it, but it's like I felt so pleasantly surprised by how not green it was until it stayed so fucking blue.

SPEAKER_02 8:27

Exactly. Yeah, he went from green to blue instantly. And I was like, my boy, please.

SPEAKER_04 8:33

It's too much, sir. Proper white balance, proper white balance. That's all I'm asking from one movie. Proper white balance.

SPEAKER_02 8:40

And then this is really where the start of Donnie Wahlberg begins. Because Donnie Wahlberg as a cop is a whole situation.

SPEAKER_05 8:48

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 8:48

It's a whole thing that James Wan loves. And I saw him in the film and I was like, oh, that's right. You are here. You are here, aren't you? And God, I can't stand you. I really can't.

SPEAKER_00 9:00

So wait, poor Donnie. Does Blue Bloods owe having Donnie Wahlberg as a cop in that show to Saw and Dead Silence?

SPEAKER_01 9:09

I think so. Probably. At this point, Donnie's agent is like, all right, Donnie, check it out. You're gonna be a cop. Let's get this electric razor. You got this in the bag.

SPEAKER_02 9:20

We're gonna get you a coat. To me, the real jab is the agent being like, Donnie, hear me out. I know you keep playing cops, and your brother Mark Wahlberg played a cop in probably the one of the most famous films of all time and nominated and whatnot. But hear me out. If you become a cop again, this might be your shot.

SPEAKER_00 9:39

You know, Binks, I'm with you here. I think more specifically, what made me think of the early 2000s, not only the cinematography, not only the editing, but the pacing. The pacing itself was very like early 2000s. Did we all have ADHD in 2005? Yes. Is that what was going on? You needed to flash stuff on the screen to get our attention. Yeah. We were fucking bored.

SPEAKER_01 10:01

Yeah, I think aside from all of that, though, it is a little bit atmospheric in my eyes. It's got the blue and and all of that, but it's very atmospheric. It's got this very gothic, really beautiful kind of look to it, especially with the scenery that you're getting throughout the film. So I think it has that going for it. On the other end, I know we kind of alluded to it earlier, but I could not help, while watching this movie, thinking that it really feels like a rated R version of Knight of the Living Dummy. It really, really does.

SPEAKER_00 10:30

Yeah. Gosh, how could you not think of that while watching this? You have to. You have to. Slappy is a better name though. Slappy Slaps.

SPEAKER_04 10:38

I actually now want to go back and read that tale in particular. I feel like I would really get a new level of enjoyment after out of it after seeing this movie. I feel like you could also take some footage from this and make a fan trailer for Night of the Living Dummy.

SPEAKER_01 10:52

Oh, for sure. 100%. Absolutely.

SPEAKER_04 10:55

Binx, you you mentioned it earlier, you're talking about how blue this movie is. And the tonal shift going into this from understanding what James Wan did with Saw, but then seeing this movie, it reminded me in such a way of okay, take the ring, except remove the seven-day mechanic, and instead of a single mom, it's like a dude trying to solve a fucking supernatural mystery. And that's the energy that I got. Obviously, we have the different color balancing here. It goes more for the cold blue, very like frigid feeling throughout the whole movie. And I think there's something in particular about wielding a creepy fucking doll and adding it to the supernatural component that allows my brain to feel a special scratch and a very specific itch where I just need something tangible to fuck around with the supernatural shit. Because take a ghosties thing, take a spirit thing, like the ring, the grudge, etc. And it's not really for me. But you put a little fucking doll in there. All of a sudden I'm into it. It was also giving Puppet Master a little bit.

SPEAKER_01 12:06

Yeah, for sure. I I think what surprised me most is not really necessarily how campy the movie can really feel and how silly this movie really is in some areas. I think I was more surprised with how much I felt like the balance between the horror and the silliness was really fun for me. It just felt really fun. It didn't feel like it was like so silly that I can't take the movie seriously at all. And it wasn't like it wasn't just like too little camp where it just felt out of place. It just felt like it was a fun time to watch some of the silliness unfold.

SPEAKER_04 12:47

Yeah, that's such a good take. And really, it's fun. I wouldn't say it's rip roarin' rootin' tootin' kind of fun, but just when it starts to get boring, it's paced well enough that it quickly passes and pushes through that into something more exciting and energetic. So I can get that.

SPEAKER_01 13:05

Definitely. The only disappointment I really have is just maybe there's maybe some small minor plot holes that I feel like are there that maybe aren't answered or don't add up. You know, the math doesn't math in some areas, but I don't really think you have to live in that space. That's just something that if you do catch on to it, it may linger and throw you off just a little bit, but don't let that derail you too much.

SPEAKER_00 13:33

Honestly, I was both surprised and disappointed that the story here is not what I think it it could have been. And I know that this isn't original, it was based on something else, but surprised because I remember a lot about this movie. I think about this movie all the time, but I forgot about a major, a major plot point. I don't know why I think about this movie. I literally think about something in the ending, like literally twice a year.

SPEAKER_04 13:55

You see the surprise on my face when you said I think about this all the time. I'm like, what fucking movie out of 336 episodes of this podcast, you told me to guess at least 10 movies that may be on the realm of things that max being spelled on a regular basis, Dead Silence would not fucking be even on the upper 300.

SPEAKER_00 14:14

You know, when I was a kid, I had a Vertriloquist dummy. Maybe that's what did it, but What the fuck? Okay.

SPEAKER_04 14:20

Hold on, where have you been holding back and hiding this shit?

SPEAKER_02 14:24

I almost said your full name. I oh my lord.

SPEAKER_00 14:28

I didn't have the the one where you stick your hand in it. It had just a little pull string to move the mouth a little bit. And I got it, I don't know, what was it, like eight or something like that? But I do remember having that. So maybe that's why I think about it.

SPEAKER_01 14:39

What was his name?

SPEAKER_00 14:40

That's great. I didn't name it. That's just my doesn't need a name, it's not a it's not a person.

SPEAKER_04 14:46

That fucking that doll is still haunting you now. Any trouble you have in your life, it's because of that fucking doll.

SPEAKER_00 14:52

It's gonna show up.

SPEAKER_04 14:53

It's like Robert, the doll in Key West. You fucking say he's ugly or you insult him, and all of a sudden you're fucked.

SPEAKER_00 14:58

I'm still not giving him a name, but that like the story here is weird because James Wan, I get that you like ghosts, but pick something when it comes to this movie. Pick something strange, a weird dynamic to go with, and just go with that. There's no need to like bacon four different weird mechanics to this universe that just it's just I don't know, it was so convoluted. That's what was disappointed. If it was kept, if it were kept simple, I'd be like 100% here for it. But I think they really overcomplicate some stuff. And I don't want to spoil too much, but you know, we've got goals and ghouls. First of all, we didn't really need those too much, and I would have been much happier. But if you're gonna have them, don't randomly add in this strange mechanic that gives you like a an opt-out for getting damaged by one of them. It's just, you know, I don't know. I don't love it.

SPEAKER_02 15:48

Interesting.

SPEAKER_01 15:49

I think the convoluted part I can be aligned with, because that's maybe where some of the plot holes come into play. But the ghouls I'm here for.

SPEAKER_02 15:58

The ghouls are ghouling. Fascinating, because I I feel like I would describe this film as simple. And I think that the maybe like the that one mechanic that you're referencing in in terms of opting out is maybe the disappointing factor because I can see some loopholes even with that alone. But in general, though, I feel like this film's pretty simple in terms of what the story is, and maybe it's because I'm thinking of one historical event or rather this theme in history that is used in a ton of horror. We're talking like a fuck ton. So if you think of that initially, you can just assume that the rest of the film's gonna fall into place the way that it does. I gotta be honest though, my biggest surprise is one character in particular, uh, Keir Gilcrest, he's in it follows an atypical the show. He plays a young version of one of the main characters. When I saw him in the scene, I was like, you've gotta be kidding me. This actor really is in a fuck ton of things that you don't expect. And his face, I'm pretty sure that kid's immortal. Like he's the next Keanu Reeves in terms of like theories that he's a vampire or something like that, because he's got the same freaking face. Obviously, like 20 years later.

SPEAKER_04 17:08

You know, earlier I mentioned some surprises, but I do want to say my biggest disappointment with this movie. I talked about how this movie felt so different from Saw, but I am deeply disappointed by how it felt super Saul, even down to some of the music that we get in the third act of the film.

SPEAKER_01 17:25

So true.

SPEAKER_04 17:26

Absolutely outrageous.

SPEAKER_02 17:28

Because it's the same composer. Yeah. James Wand said, stick around, buddy. I need you one more time. But it's not even stick around. It's stick around, do the same thing. Quite literally. The piano is the same.

SPEAKER_01 17:40

Budget, you know?

SPEAKER_02 17:41

Charlie Clauser is his name. He's like, Oh, yeah, I got the same beats, actually. I got the same piano. Let me just tweak it a little bit. Let me have a little fun. Put it in reverse.

SPEAKER_04 17:51

Didn't tweak it enough for me, dog. I felt and I could hear this movie and imagine and look back on the entire reveal of the big twist and saw. Not to say that this movie is really twisting. I mean it certainly tries to.

SPEAKER_01 18:05

Some twists, some twists and turns.

SPEAKER_04 18:07

It tries to. I don't want to get your hopes up too high, listener, and then you think it's gonna be some crazy ass shit. I think you could probably see it coming from a mile away. However, comma. That was a big disappointment. It actually, I think, halted a lot of the momentum that had been building up for me emotionally in this movie. Not like boo-hoo emotion, but just like, oh, I could fuck with this emotion. But perhaps one of the reasons why I had so much goodwill built up is because I found this movie to have really eerie moments. I'm not affected or afflicted by dolls. Although being she talks about moms and abuelas and aunts, my mom collects fucked up dolls. Not necessarily curse dolls, but I think they looked fucked. But they're porcelain dolls. And she used to have in oh my god, I remember living in my house in Texas, all the little clowns that would hold onto the swings that were suspended from the ceiling.

SPEAKER_01 19:01

Nope.

SPEAKER_04 19:02

It is it's completely fucked. It's like a core memory for me. But despite being unaffected by them, there are moments in this movie where atmosphere is built, attention is built, and really the stellar production value of this doll and of these dolls, it really makes for something pretty impactful. So I think if you are someone who is creeped out by dolls, I think this is gonna hit for you.

SPEAKER_01 19:28

That's what I'm saying. If it it's a it's a fun movie with a spooky atmosphere and some good old-fashioned little jump scares, and it kind of works for what the what the film is trying to do. If you turn the lights off and you turn the volume all the way up, this one can this one hits sometimes.

SPEAKER_02 19:46

Sometimes. Not all the times. Yeah, I think that if you're delicate to the jump scare bit, there's not many of them here, I don't think.

SPEAKER_01 19:57

Yeah, there's a good amount of them.

SPEAKER_02 19:58

But not typical for James Wong, though. Not typical. He only just increases he power-ups in terms of jump scares later on as his filmography grows. But there's some I think the fear is really rooted in the fear of well, creepy old women to say it bluntly, but also dolls and ventriloquist dolls, which is like very niche, new fear unlocked type thing. So Mac, I don't know where you have that doll, but don't pull it out from the closet for sure. I I think that if you've got that kind of fear, I can see how my coworker is like, fuck this movie, I will never watch it again. Because I even had moments where I was like, oh hell no, lady, get out of here.

SPEAKER_00 20:43

Am I the only one who just finds this movie to be completely not scary in any way? Come on. I don't think I don't think it's scary at all. I'm not worried about dolls coming to life. I'm not worried about inanimate object objects curse uh cursing me or getting possessed or anything like that. Maybe I'm just not fun. I just I didn't find it scary.

SPEAKER_01 21:05

You you don't think it had a spooky kind of feel to it? Just the vibe of the movie.

SPEAKER_02 21:13

It was so blue.

SPEAKER_00 21:15

It was so blue, dabbadae da.

SPEAKER_01 21:17

No, it was the gothic set design, the lighting, the blue. Come on, guys. Come on.

SPEAKER_00 21:23

That doesn't make it scary, that just makes it have a gothic setting and well, yeah, yeah. Blue and dark and poorly lit. And I just don't find the concept scary. I don't think dolls themselves are scary. It's like when movies love to have kids, you know, as scary things, and it's like they're kids, you kick it and then you're good. A doll, what about you pick it up and throw it across the room. Who cares? But I think there's movies that show dolls and other inanimate objects in a more threatening way, like child's play, or even like Puppet Master has those tiny little puppets move around and do freaking. I I think there was just no threat. There's a severe lack of threat in this movie for me.

SPEAKER_04 22:06

I think what it is is there's a severe lack of nipple leeches.

SPEAKER_01 22:11

Oh my gosh.

SPEAKER_04 22:12

Shout out to Puppet Master.

SPEAKER_01 22:14

Listen, this was spooky enough to get a house in Horror Nights.

SPEAKER_02 22:19

Was it? I don't remember that at all.

SPEAKER_01 22:21

It was a house right after it came out.

SPEAKER_02 22:23

Oh hell no.

SPEAKER_01 22:25

Oh yeah.

SPEAKER_02 22:26

That's intense. But here's the thing. I I would dare say that I bet you that house was scarier than the film itself. There's a new release that came out this year called Imaginary, and I said something similar where I'm like, I bet you that the if they did a house of Imaginary, that shit would be scarier, way scarier than the movie. And I think that's kind of how I feel about Dead Silence. I'm gonna watch a YouTube video of that because that's gotta be intense.

SPEAKER_01 22:51

I think there's an extended cut of this film or like a director's cut of this film if you get it on DVD or something like that, where it where I feel like some of the scarier scenes are a little bit better, a little bit more intense. You know what I mean? I I remember that being a thing, although that's not the version I watched.

SPEAKER_00 23:11

You know, this movie, I hate to be negative Nancy, but it's just a big bag of genre cliches.

SPEAKER_01 23:17

That's what's fun.

SPEAKER_00 23:18

Is that fun? It doesn't even do it in like a meta way. If it was meta about it, then I'd be having fun. You gotta be a little bit brainy, you know. I I just I'm one of those viewers who like make me think I'm smarter than I actually am. Just that's what keeps me entertained.

SPEAKER_02 23:32

I don't know if that was like his intention, though. So I can't necessarily get on his case too much about it. Again, I I think that this is a very simple 90-minute film. And so to expect that you're gonna get some kind of mind-bending or like big, big major plot twist is not gonna happen. I'll water that down for you now. Although you may expect it because James Wan himself thinks that he's great at these plot twists, and he did it for Saw, I'll give him that. And granted, this is his second film, so why wouldn't he be able to do it? To me, it's that this doesn't already feel very original. I can see how it's most certainly a pre-insidious, without a doubt, to me, and very post-Saw. And in general, I mentioned this just a moment ago. What I think that this is really rooted in is witch hunts and this whole like Salem and this whole vibe of like women being hunted down type thing or like revenge, that kind of stuff. Like that's what this film is, and that's a trope and that's a a theme in history that has been replicated in so many horror films. Yes, this is 2007, but even then in the early 2000s, they were doing this, and even before, and they've done it after. So it's hard for me to feel like, okay, James Wan, you really got me when I know the blueprint so well that it doesn't really feel like something new.

SPEAKER_01 24:56

Yeah, I see that side of it for sure. It's definitely tropes that we've seen before. You can definitely look at it from that point of view of just seeing the same old witch hunt, if you will. To your point, there is so many movies about that type of scenario that we're just gonna probably continue to get some variation of that for the end of time. People are still going to reuse that kind of backbone for different stories that they want to tell and things like that, and they may flip some stuff upside down, may regurgitate some things we don't know. But I get it, and I gotta be honest, I was afraid that this movie was gonna get lost in the sauce with all these other horror films that you can also say that this can be lumped in with, you know, child's play, Chuck E, Dolls, Puppet Master, even Saw itself, because the puppet is even named Billy in that fucking movie. So, you know, you know what I mean? You can really see how it might get washed up with all these other movies about dolls and some kind of shit like that, but I don't know. I feel like it may lack its own actual originality as far as all these different tropes that it explores, but I also, intention or not, I think it's still just fun because those tropes are fun. If you like a good slasher film, there's tons of tropes that you've seen over and over again, but you still love it because the formula just works. Nothing, though, will ever top the king of ventriloquist horror films Dead of Night 1945. Michael Redgrave, fantastic film. You could probably pause this movie, watch that, and then you can watch watch this later as you're going to sleep or something, because that movie is king, but you know.

SPEAKER_04 26:39

Oh, I love a good recommendation. I might have to actually stay up late tonight and watch that.

SPEAKER_01 26:43

So good.

SPEAKER_04 26:44

This movie is more of the same, and it's mostly fine. There's nothing wrong with that if you're just looking for some dumb shit to watch and have a good time with. I wouldn't even say that this really falls into the exact category of just dumb bullshit to watch, but it still manages to be fun enough to get by. What feels like more of the same though is that third act and that ending. And it's by far, for me, one of the most disappointing parts of this movie. I understand how we get to where we get, and I'm not mad about the final outcome, but the execution of the outcome is giving horrific for me.

SPEAKER_01 27:22

Yeah, I feel like they really try to jam pack a lot into this story in true James Wan form. We get everything thrown into our faces in 30 seconds and some montage from hell. He really loves to do that fucking shit, but I think the nice little twists and turns that the story takes, whether you can see it coming or not, I think those were kind of fun. So even though you kind of get some of that stuff in flashbacks, I still enjoyed the fun lore of it all. You know what I mean? The whole perfect doll and all that jazz was fun to watch, but I do get it. It it is something where I feel like what really hurts it is that they jam-pack so much into the end that it's just almost overload.

SPEAKER_00 28:08

It really was. You should you you gotta keep it simple. The first what third of the movie is seemingly very simple and very straightforward, and that gets your interest going, that gets the tensions up, and then they're just like they let loose and they try to fire everything off. And when you we finally get to the ending, I mean, like it's an ending. They tried to give us like a twist when we didn't really need a twist. I just I don't know, it's it didn't land the plane, and I think they just didn't need to squish it all together like that. If you've got if you've got 90 minutes, space it out a little bit.

SPEAKER_02 28:42

It really comes down to something that we've continued to reiterate, which is he tried to make it saw to some extent, both him and Lee Wannell. Like they tried to make it saw, and it wasn't saw. Because for me, I could have seen that major plot twist from five miles away. From the moment that the film started and you're introduced to a couple characters, I'm already like, oh, yeah, I forget how obvious this is. And then even that aside, it's kind of like you guys are saying, even that aside, you still try your best to like create this whole thing of this is how this is done, and the James won flashback scenario, and it's like, buddy, I don't even know if we needed all that. And then the score to boot, oh geez, it's just like copy paste entirely.

SPEAKER_01 29:28

Not the score is like vanilla ice. This one goes dun dun dun dun dun dun dun. But mine goes dun dun dun dun dun dun dun ding. Literally.

SPEAKER_04 29:39

Well, we'll see if our feelings on the ending shake out to a favorable rating. But before we start to score this film, Sean, how would you describe the gore score?

SPEAKER_01 29:47

Don't be deceived by the R rating here, because you are definitely not getting it much in the gore department. It doesn't mean that the movie is not without its like halfway decent maybe graphic shots here or there, but you definitely aren't getting enough to doll this gore score up with anything other than a low gore score.

SPEAKER_02 30:06

And what about the animal report? Shockingly, no animals were harmed by ventriloquis.

SPEAKER_04 30:11

Well, let's go ahead and get into our ratings then. Dead Silence from 2007, as nominated by Katie and selected by our patrons. Was it a hack or a slash?

SPEAKER_00 30:19

Dead Silence, like its characters, is a tall glass of room temperature flat soda. The promotional shots and like early usage we get of Billy the Ventrilocus doll scream of the possibility, the possibility of Zany can't be killer potential. But the film wastes it on a convoluted ghost story that makes Goosebumps Slappy the Dummy seem like a horror icon. Uh when it should have zigged towards being something fun like child's play, it chose instead to zag towards every other bland, overhyped ghost flick. And to top it all off, James Wan, Saw was a groundbreaking sub-genre launching spectacle, and this was a belly flop even Jigsaw would have to wince and look away from. It's a hack.

SPEAKER_02 31:00

Mac, I'm gonna go after you because I really love the analogy of the flat soda. Because I think with those films is very much like when you go to pick up a bottle of soda and you think like, oh, it's gonna fizz, it's gonna be great, it's gonna be sharp, and then you open it and all of a sudden it's like, wait, where's the fizz? I'm freaking out. Is this flat or is this not? I don't know. Because for me, I think scoring this film is actually pretty tough. Because on one hand, it's like a 90-minute simple plot horror film, decent shots for sure, certainly creepy vibes. But then on the other hand, it's just the kind of cliche that I struggle with, especially struggle to let fully slide, that's for sure. The blue tints throughout the film is so unnecessary and distracting that it almost makes up for the very bland acting that I that at least I thought was going on, considering that the cast in general is pretty great. Like they've got some pr really good filmography. So I don't know, it was something about it was just like, what's happening here? I'm waiting for a shock moment, I'm waiting for something really cool to happen, and then I only get tinges of it here and there. There was even one point where I was like, you know what? I'm feeling good about this film. I'm gonna just settle right here. I'm gonna plant my flag, and then they wasted it. They were like complete sellouts to the point of using CGI when it was unnecessary. And I want to stick with the word sellout because even the writer himself, Lee Wannell, said in an article. I look had to look this up because I was just curious, right? He said himself that he uses this film as a lesson as to why he will no longer work with studios to write films. He will, moving forward and has since, wrote a script and then will sell them to studios. He will not let studios have their way with the script. So thinking that, realizing my disappointments and whatnot, I feel like this film definitely isn't nearly as bad as you think it is, but ultimately I can't confidently slash this, so it's getting a hack from me.

SPEAKER_01 33:00

Wow. Wow. This is crazy. I don't know what Chris's review is gonna be, but in case it's a hack, I'm gonna step in right here and make sure that this doesn't get a universal hack because I'm gonna be honest with y'all. This was kind of a fucking fun movie to watch. It brought me back to movies that were fun in the 80s and early 90s. It was a vibe. I think it was surprisingly just a good time and just sitting back and having a good time with it. The movie is just campy enough in all the right ways for me. You have this creepy old school vibe to it, it kind of has this throwback feel to it, almost even at times like an old Vincent Price movie, right? Immediate I think The House on Haunted Hill 1959 comes to mind instantly for one very specific reason. But this movie just that's what it has, is just a vibe to it. It's just creepy enough, just campy enough. It has a pretty good story, and it has fun little twists to it. I think it has this almost gothic feel to it, and I love it because I'm secretly a little goth kid at heart, and I feel like this movie, this is the movie that Darkness Falls wanted to be. That's how I'll put it. This is the movie that Darkness Falls wish it could have been. And if you haven't seen this one yet, don't let it slip through the cracks. I think it's worth a watch. I think it's a slash.

SPEAKER_04 34:19

Okay, listen, Sean, you had me until the Darkness Falls slanders. We need to fucking chill on that. Darkness Falls is a great movie. I know it doesn't hit the same for everybody in their nostalgia. Maybe they remember a little bit too kindly. Darkness Falls is a perfectly serviceable bullshit tooth fairy movie. I think we can just let that one rest in peace. However, this movie was a surprise for me. I was surprised to learn that James won't had involvement. I was surprised to see he was different, and then I was surprised to see that to my best efforts, I was still disappointed with how it was very much the same. It's like he couldn't stay away long enough. But at the end of it, this movie is a story about a woman exacting her revenge, and I can get into that, especially with the method that we take in this movie. And for as much as I hate the execution of the third act, I love the final resolution of this movie. When all the cards are on the table, all the chips have fallen into their place, and this doll is enough of a vessel to effectively ground what so often for me feels like an out-of-touch, difficult to grasp or really care about supernatural horror experience. This is a great blend of the spooks that James Wong goes on to that I quite can't quite grab onto with enough physical manifestation into almost slasher-like moments, ambiance, and atmosphere. It is imperfect. It is way too fucking blue. I do hate that. I love a lot of the music in this movie until we get the literal copy-paste scoring from Saw for the third act. And honestly, I don't know that I could care any less than I do for the main character. But the antagonist? I can fuck with that. So it's a slash. And with that, Dead Silence from 2007 has earned two hacks and two slashes. Now you can find this movie for free on Tubi. So take that as you may, or you can check the link in our shows to see where else you can find it right now. Go check it out, then join us in the second half so we can dive into these dolls together. We'll see you in a bit.

SPEAKER_00 36:40

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SPEAKER_01 38:05

Human kills, that is, because there are a lot more dummy deaths for sure. There's something like a hundred and one or no, a hundred and two. Dalmatians. Yeah, like a hundred and two, something like that, because Billy Burns alive as well. And to be honest, there's not a ton of variety here because a lot of people and dolls alike died in the exact same way. So I am curious to see what your favorite kills are.

SPEAKER_00 38:34

I think my favorite one is the off-screen kill, technically, I guess, of Edward.

SPEAKER_01 38:39

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 38:40

Um, simply because of the after effects. He's still a realistic looking alive human being that has pale skin. So that's impressive that they were she's able to kill him, use him as a puppet with the most rudimentary of puppet controls, yet he's able to emote. How does that work? I don't even know, but I like it.

SPEAKER_01 39:00

It was so good.

SPEAKER_02 39:01

So here's the problem with that, though, is that he clearly looks unwell, but like not the damn he's sick, but the fully not okay.

SPEAKER_01 39:11

It was so good. The whole he doesn't look quite right. I mean, I just love maybe I don't know. It's just the reveal at the end for me. It is just like seeing the hollowed out back and this like stick in the center of that, and just kind of thinking through like how she was using the the dude's dead body as like some kind of doll, right? It just I don't know. It's very silly, semi-doesn't make sense, but it still was awesome.

SPEAKER_04 39:41

Okay. Listening to you all go back and forth on this, I just want to share the perspective of someone who's never seen this fucking movie before. I like to quote from the book of Chris. This is in my notes as I'm watching. Edward was dressed up exactly like Billy. Your father's change. He's not the same man that you remember. Yes, because he's already a dead doll, ma'am. Fucking call that shit literally the moment I fucking saw him. He's sitting in a wheelchair, she has her fucking hand behind him, he's dressed up in a fucking suit, he's pale as fuck.

SPEAKER_01 40:11

You're yeah, you're a seasoned veteran, you know, but I think you know it's just subtle enough of a thing that I feel like the average viewer isn't gonna be looking towards that specific fact as what's going on here because there's so much going on with the whole murder mystery kind of weird fucking solve this whole not murder mystery, but solve this whole mystery and mystique surrounding this Mary Shaw character and all that stuff with the ventriloquist Billy the puppet or whatever. That I don't know that you can you you're seasoned veteran and we've also seen this before, so I think that is something where we can be like, okay, yeah, looking at this, cool. But I think the average viewer might overlook that one potentially.

SPEAKER_04 40:54

Maybe, but it's also the inverse of Saw in that in Saw, the dead guy was alive all the time, and in this movie, the alive guy is dead the whole time.

SPEAKER_01 41:02

True, true.

SPEAKER_02 41:03

Exactly, exactly. Wish it was a little spicier than that. If anything, the spicy part is that somehow the stepmom is also dead and was basically being taken over. And so if anything, it's like, wait a minute, but then how the fuck are you gonna explain that? Twist again! Exactly. So it's like, all right, James, at this point, I can see where the stud this is exactly where Lee Wannell was like, the studio wanted something out of this, and this is their hands for sure in the pot.

SPEAKER_01 41:33

That was the worst, that was the worst part of the story for me was her being like the possessed conduit of the of Mary Shaw or whatever, because I just don't understand how this lady even got in the mix, how she was chosen to be this, like why she was even part of this in general, but she's just here. You're gonna make that big of a twist, but not give us any like backstory as to where this fucking girl came from, you know what I mean?

SPEAKER_04 42:01

She's the perfect doll made by Mary. Good for her.

SPEAKER_01 42:04

Fantastic.

SPEAKER_04 42:05

But I would like to share what was my favorite kill. And I'm pulling a Sean here.

SPEAKER_01 42:10

Uh uh.

SPEAKER_04 42:11

I'm not saying it's actually my favorite kill, but the emotional revelation of this kill, the oh shit of this kill, the drama that she killed Lisa simply because Lisa was carrying the ash and bloodline in her and she was pregnant with his baby. That fetus.

SPEAKER_02 42:33

Kill the fetus. Not the whispering of the kill the fetus.

SPEAKER_04 42:37

But also, Mary, you're not a girl's girl. Mary, you could have just interfered with the pregnancy and not killed Lisa, but she fucking went for good measure.

SPEAKER_02 42:45

Preemptively. Because she was like, Before I get to you, actually, I'm gonna go ahead and fuck his life up.

SPEAKER_04 42:50

Yeah, let's make sure that by the time I'm done with you, there's no other, honestly, there's no other chance of a bloodline sprouting from this. But again, she could have stopped or interfered with the pregnancy, then killed him. You know what I mean? She didn't have to go as hard as she did. But, you know, here we are.

SPEAKER_01 43:08

The ultimate double tap.

SPEAKER_03 43:09

RIP, Lisa.

SPEAKER_00 43:11

That also seems like a very soap opera thing to do, you know. It's like, what gets spicier than than making this kind of spicy, making it even spicier? They're like, we can't just have her kill his girlfriend as the first kill of the movie. The girlfriend had to be pregnant. Yeah. Boom.

SPEAKER_02 43:27

I will say though, it's a beautiful look though, in terms of her position on that bed, her hands distorted and everything. I was like, wow, this is like a really great shot. It's quite sad. Now, I actually thought you were going to say Michael Ashen, because that's also fuck them kids, most certainly.

SPEAKER_01 43:44

But dude, that was great. The kid deserves it. The kid deserves it, but that was cool to watch. That was a cool review. How is that motherfucking corpse still preserved the way as good as it did? That's a long time ago.

SPEAKER_04 43:57

Magic.

SPEAKER_01 43:58

Magic. It was a long time ago, but it looked Like some deranged fucking Pinocchio, and it was great.

SPEAKER_02 44:03

It was very cool.

SPEAKER_04 44:04

Even between Michael's death and then Lisa's death, I appreciate that they're very dramatic to the point of being campy. Although some moments of them feel like unintentional camp. So I think it gets a little bit dangerously close to just being a little bit too much. But whew, some good stuff. I should have picked that one.

SPEAKER_02 44:20

There's a sad one though. I I feel like Henry's is sad. Just because he was really trying to take care of his wife and just doing his job. The man said, Look, puddles are the biz, okay? I gotta take the photos of the people. Don't ask me whether I think it's good or not. I gotta do what I gotta do. Especially his origin. You know, he participated in Mary Shaw's performance that night. He was doing the thing. But I mean, who wouldn't scream? I practically almost screamed when I saw her face at the bottom of those things.

SPEAKER_01 44:50

Oh, for sure. This is one of those horror films that I feel like I can instantly tell you I'm fucking dead. Like there's no way. Because if motherfuckers are sneaking up behind me with some creepy ass doll shit, and I'm just, you know, you're coming up and I don't know that shit's gonna make me naturally make a noise. I'm sorry. And if this is a movie about making a noise, I'm fucked.

SPEAKER_04 45:12

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 45:13

I'm completely fucked.

SPEAKER_04 45:14

You're fucked in this, you're fucked in a quiet place.

SPEAKER_01 45:17

Definitely.

SPEAKER_04 45:18

I think I could actually survive this movie because when I get scared, I don't elicit an uh an audible response.

SPEAKER_01 45:23

Oh.

SPEAKER_04 45:24

I fucking die inside. Don't get me wrong, I'm terrified. But I don't outwardly emote or expression.

SPEAKER_01 45:30

That's great. That's great.

SPEAKER_04 45:32

It's not, it's probably not healthy, but here I am. Come at me, Mary.

SPEAKER_01 45:36

But even with Henry's and pretty much everyone else's, there isn't a lot of other variations of death. Everyone else is getting their tongue ripped out, turned into some weird dead puppet looking thing, and killed, other than the dolls who pretty much either get shot or burned, and that's pretty much all you get. I guess we could also say, let's at least elevate Jamie's death at the end, because even though he dies pretty much in the same way as everyone else, I think it's just a great kill because you get this whole kind of you almost feel like the movie kind of plateaus and you're kind of or it lands, and you're like, Okay, alright, he he did it, right? We burned all the dolls, it's good. Uh joke's on you. Here comes the next twist, and then he dies. And so at least there's that. All of the main characters die in this movie. It's fantastic. We love when everyone dies.

SPEAKER_04 46:29

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 46:30

I love it.

SPEAKER_04 46:31

I fucking love it too because Mary got her way. Mary was a woman who was silenced, and yet she persisted. Granted, I know that she literally murdered that child. I get it. I'm not saying that her and Freddie would be besties. I'm not saying that she's innocent and all this, but what I am saying is to be so petty that you come back to haunt a bloodline curse to simply do unto them what they did unto you, only because you did unto them first, but that's neither here nor there. But to to do the whole if you scream, I'm gonna fucking kill your ass, it's it is giving darkness falls of the tooth fairy. If you see her, then she comes for you. I actually love that. I really fucking love that. So I was so happy that not only did Jamie not fucking make it to the end of this movie, but that there was a satisfaction of him being in her book.

SPEAKER_02 47:25

That's fair, but I do want to asterisk this for a second because doesn't Marion live, the wife of Henry? So technically she's just like crying over him.

SPEAKER_04 47:35

Yeah, she's not a main character though. She's just a little supporting fine.

SPEAKER_02 47:39

I just want to say that I'm glad that she lives, though, because technically, from the very beginning, she was trying to tell everybody what was the biz, and they wrote her off as crazy. And she's besties, I guess, with Mary Shaw to some extent. Because she Mary Shaw was like, Alright, I can fuck with you. You're an elderly woman. Seems like maybe you don't have kids. Like, you get me. We see each other. So I'm gonna let you live. She's a girl's girl after all.

SPEAKER_00 48:02

You mentioned, Sean, like how many, how many kills there were that were non-human. And there were quite a few dummies that died in this movie. And honestly, of all the things they showed us, you know, the screaming mouths, those are pretty good. Uh, I like that. The CGI did not enjoy, we could have done without that. But the look of the dummies was great because the simplest of things was so effective with them. All they had to do was turn their head on their own. That was effective, and they all looked so good, they had different styles, different little clothing situations going on. And I wonder how many they actually had to make or how many they were just able to purchase pre-made, but maybe it's the color grading, they all looked great, they all look like they belonged here.

SPEAKER_04 48:41

1000%. I love the dolls so much, and even when the dolls interact with the rest of the set, like there's a moment where a neon light is flashing and buzzing outside, and then we have Billy's eyes turning, and then his head is turning. It's so good, it's so effective. But I want to actually go back to the third act of the film. We have the moment where all the dolls in the glass casing are turning their heads. I need to be honest with you that as gorgeous as that was, and I did love it, I also was thinking about those fucking singing bass fish that you hang up on a wall. And I was just thinking about how you link them all together and then they all start singing the song together. Oh no. And that is that ruined that moment for me, for sure.

SPEAKER_01 49:27

Oh, but oh, that's really quite hilarious. But you also get some really great Easter eggs in that moment. You've got Billy from Saw, you have the puppet in that scene. You also have some really famous ventriloquist dolls. You have Edgar Bergen's Charlie McCarthy in there. There's one other one I can't think of, but you have some really great Easter eggs in that scene, which I thought was really cool.

SPEAKER_04 49:55

The only Easter egg I want is from When a Stranger Calls Back, but this movie wasn't ready for that. If you know, you know.

SPEAKER_02 50:02

If anything, the other Easter egg is this blue tin, and everyone thinking that reminds them of Twilight on a darker resolution or something. That's for sure. What I will say though, and give props for in terms of cinematography while I'm at it and color grading, I suppose. There's this transition at the very beginning that goes straight, like zooms out through the eye, and then it keeps going again and again. I don't know. That was very much my shit. I thought that was awesome. I thought it was super cool.

SPEAKER_04 50:29

Okay. I had a note about how I loved the pullback from Lee's body, and you see the reflection in his eyes, and yeah, the flashing cop lights. I really loved that. What I did hate was that it continued in transition again so quickly after that. I'm like, whoa, guys, guys, guys, it was giving saw. It was giving saw chill. Take it easy, take it easy, poppy.

SPEAKER_02 50:51

Fair, fair. No, I liked actually that it's a to me. I interpret it as kind of like a fake out where it just keeps going, where he's just going deeper and deeper. But again, that's me probably pulling strings and thinking like this is more emotional and more thought-provoking cinema when it's so not.

SPEAKER_04 51:10

Well, when it pulls out to a Donnie Wahlberg reveal, nah, girl.

SPEAKER_02 51:15

That's that was the scariest part of the film. Not you making this movie your puppet.

SPEAKER_01 51:20

I think for me, maybe aside from some of the props and things that we get, which I think are pretty fun. I think the set design for me I had a lot of fun with as well. Parts of it felt like I was maybe on the set of for goosebumps or tales from the crypt or something like that. And it had this kind of haunted house kind of feel to it. It was there were moments where it felt, like I said earlier, very gothic, and it just was really cool to look at. And but there was also this low budget feel to it, and it it just depended on what what scene you were watching. And sometimes it was cool, sometimes it it wasn't. Like there were moments where it felt more fake and less detailed. The cities, for some reason, when you're like out in the town or whatever, that shit looked terrible. For some reason, that just did not look good. But when you're when they're in like the old theater, I thought that looked great. You know what I mean? I don't know, it's kind of a little bit hit or miss, but the parts that hit I thought looked good enough that it just was one of the more fun elements of the film.

SPEAKER_02 52:21

I think I had read that he was trying to go for maybe like a claustrophobic feel, very similar to Saw, and not trying to have a lot of like exterior shots. But I feel like I didn't necessarily get the sense of claustrophobia when we're looking at from the inside, but I did get very gothic influence. Right. So maybe it would have been cool if these spaces were smaller. It's kind of hard to expect that coming from a theater. But I guess maybe the tunnel when Henry's looking there underneath, right? But in his house or the mortuary, but I guess we get a little bit of that. But I feel like there's potential here to get a little bit more claustrophobic, considering that these puppets they already kind of seem that way. This they're containing these souls, right? So potential. Don't know if it necessarily hit the mark on that, but I will tell you that theater, I agree with you. It was definitely creepy. I would not fuck around and find out in that spot.

SPEAKER_04 53:22

That theater is actually home to my favorite scene in the fucking movie. And that was the ventriloquist performance where we get to see Mary in her heyday. It was so good. And she just has that one little biting petty line now. Come on, girl. And honestly, I think it's because ventriloquism as a whole is just super impressive to me, and I can't imagine being able to pull that off. So obviously, we know that this is like fictional within the context of a movie, and there's allegedly some supernatural shit going on, but I love the audience's reactions when they're like, Oh, they're talking at the same time. You can see them making the hand gestures and they're wondering how she's achieving the overlap in the voices. I honestly I'm just so blown by it. I'm just so blown away by it, and I loved getting to see Mary in her prime. And I also love that she was a bad bitch and she wasn't just like a misunderstood. Like they didn't get it wrong, they just should have been more chill about it or more effective.

SPEAKER_00 54:18

That that scene was so good. I actually liked it because of Billy though. I think their back and forth was a lot of fun, and what it's what I had hoped to get from Billy as a character. Like when they talk at the same time and it's clear that she's just not throwing her voice, that's fantastic. Um, like when he is getting truly a you know at a child and wants to like mess that kid up, I'm like, yeah, that's the antagonist that I want. I don't I'm not actually here for the ghost. I'm here for the ghost as the backstory, or just her as the backstory, but Billy as a character. That's what I was here for.

SPEAKER_01 54:52

Or maybe she's the ghost controlling Billy, and Billy's more involved as an actual entity than just, you know what I mean? Maybe that would be better.

SPEAKER_00 55:02

Him speaking is what I needed, I think the rest of this movie.

SPEAKER_01 55:05

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 55:06

Him and other dolls speaking. Ooh, okay.

SPEAKER_01 55:09

I mean, that being said, though, I pretty much enjoyed every time we got to see Mary Shaw. I'm gonna be honest. I thought it was great. I think there are moments where it is pretty creepy. There's a moment where, and I think this might have been one of the parts that you were mentioning earlier, Chris, with the blinking neon light, because there was that it was in the motel, right, where the neon light is blinking, the sign is blinking, and Billy is coming to life with the eyes to attack Jamie, and the eyes are slowly turning with the slow distorted audio in the background, and then you see Mary Shaw's face, you know, for just a second, right? It's it's very effective and it's kind of creepy. But then there's moments that I absolutely also love and have a great time with, especially when we get Mary Shaw like coming at you, like the ghost of Mary Shaw coming at you, because it feels like literally it's put like a prop on top of a furniture dolly and pushed it towards you. That's how it looks like it's moving, and it's so campy in that way that it's it's just such a fun time. It instantly that moment brought me back to the house on Haunted Hill because there's that moment where we come out into the from the room into the hallway, and there's that ghost right next to your face, and it's super it almost feels the exact same way. It feels almost the exact same way, and then the ghost like moves across the hall and it's moving the exact same way. Like they just put it on a fucking pair of wheels and moved it across the screen. And if it worked in 1959, why wouldn't it fucking work in 2007 or whatever the fuck? So kudos to you, James Wan. I fucking loved it. Not that ghost having Heelys. Come on, the Heelys of it all, so great, absolutely fantastic.

SPEAKER_02 56:57

Yeah. You know what? That is actually a phenomenal scene from The House on Haunted Hill, and now I actually feel like I need to revisit it just for that moment. So, okay, fine.

SPEAKER_04 57:07

That reminds me that my House on Haunted Hill vinyl just showed up a couple days ago.

SPEAKER_05 57:12

Ooh.

SPEAKER_02 57:13

Oh, that's right. That's right. They didn't do a repressing, very pretty. Much like Mary Shaw's makeup, we keep talking about her, but it's because she really is the star of the show and never deserved to be heckled. It is kind of funny and ironic, though, that she was killed because they thought that she killed this kid, and it's because I really did. So that's where like I I think of this like trope of well, I don't want to call it a trope, it's actually a historical event where these women were told that they were witches, right? This witch hunt that used to happen in history when they were completely innocent. In this case, she actually wasn't innocent, she was very much guilty, but you know, it's very adjacent to it. But my favorite moment of hers in particular is actually when she's dead at this point that they've murdered her. She's at the mortuary or the morgue, and she's being prepped to become a doll herself. And little old Henry, Chief Mulso as fuck, going down there, fucking around and finding out. But when she then stands up, she seems like so fucking tall. The surrealism there is so intense, and I loved it actually, because even I was intimidated by her. And this actress just can really do the fucking thing. She can put on a face that is so scary, and it reminds me a lot of, yeah, of course, inevitably what becomes the bride in black and insidious, but also like Valik, you know, all of these intense female characters in modern cinema that are so intense and scary and creepy and demonic looking. So it's a shame that she almost gets lost in this film, right? That this film is just forgotten in the early 2000s because I feel like she really could be an iconic horror icon.

SPEAKER_01 59:03

I agree. Mary Shaw, Justice for Mary Shaw.

SPEAKER_02 59:06

Justice, for sure.

SPEAKER_04 59:08

It's a damn shame that we haven't gotten more of her. I could have done with way more of her and way less of the detective who is using a fucking electric razor every five goddamn seconds in this movie.

SPEAKER_01 59:17

What the fuck was with the who does that? Who sits there and uses a fucking beard trimmer in somebody's house? The fucking audacity on this man. Those hairs are all over my couch now, they're on the floor, it's disgusting. What's wrong with you?

SPEAKER_02 59:32

Let's talk about it. Let's talk about it. Cause I wrote it down. I was like, wait till I speak to Sean and Mac. I need to know. Is that a fucking thing?

SPEAKER_01 59:42

No, that's atrocious. Why would you do that? It's terrible. Whoever's doing that, you're terrible. It always looks like he didn't shave at all. It was ineffective.

SPEAKER_04 59:52

Much like his fucking competence as a detective. The worst. How the fuck are you gonna take a shovel to dig up a fucking thing and then just bring it into the hotel room, too?

SPEAKER_01 1:00:03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:00:04

Why was there a shovel in his hotel room? Could have stayed in the car.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:07

Also, if you were actually a good fucking detective, you would have already known the lore in the story that is clearly on everyone's forehead. You enter this place, we know this rhyme, we know this story. Mary Shaw is basically their equivalent of, I don't even know, Jesus. You just know who the fuck this woman is. You know her story. One quick Google search, because I know they got it in 2007, could have told you who the fuck she was and what might be going afoot, and even more so what that frickin' puppet was.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:38

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:39

One Google search. Stop shaving your goddamn beard, sir.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:43

Well, yeah, do something useful and productive.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:46

Useful.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:47

He really just served as basically the actual husband figure in most horror movies because he's the one that just didn't believe shit and was trying to pin it on Jamie, even though Jamie was like, No, this is really happening, man, you gotta believe me, kind of thing. You know what I mean? And he's also constantly just trying to prove to this dumb detective and pretty much doing this guy's job for him. And it serves that dude right, you know, detective fucking lipshits fucking had to die at the end because he deserved that shit.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:15

This is one of those things I think I remember from this movie from watching it a decade ago, is just him walking around buzzing. Because it seems like it was like a comedic choice.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:25

Yeah, for sure.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:26

He's like, this will be funny, this will be silly, this will be a little bit gamp. I'm just gonna be always shaving. Always shaving with the worst possible those razors, I don't not razors, but trimmers. Those trimmers that have like that mesh thing, they don't do anything. I don't even know where they sell them. Like, whose hair does that work on? I have no idea. It's the worst, it's the worst one ever. And for him to be using that constantly, it had to have been a deliberate choice. I'm gonna do this for the laughs. I surely hope so. I I feel like as flat as all of these characters were, they had to get their they had to get their jokes in some way. They had to add a little bit of life to one of these characters at least, even though it was ridiculous. So I gotta spice it up a little bit.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:06

It had to have been a gag.

SPEAKER_04 1:02:07

It had to have been Donnie Wahlberg's detective was certainly a dumb fuck in this movie, but who was also a dumb fuck was Jamie. I could not get behind this guy whatsoever. And I want to tell you that yes, the James Wan super cut flashback revealing the alleged twist about his dad. Sure, that's the worst part of the movie. But I'm giving you my runner-up, my so close it's almost in tide for first place runner-up. The fact that Jamie walked up to that murder ass fucking clown doll. This man walks up to the clown doll in front of Donny Wahlberg's detective with a gun traced at him, and he walks in front of the gun. What are you thinking, man? Hey, why is this guy you bringing a shotgun into close quarters? I don't fucking know. But the fact that this man has a complete lack of wherewithal and situational awareness, he's just casually walking into doll. Like, you don't think how how could you possibly think there's anything good waiting for you at that doll?

SPEAKER_01 1:03:09

Poor choices. I I think the worst part, and I said it earlier, and Mac, I think you might be aligned in this, is that you know, we talk about the fact that the the story, I've talked about how I like the story, it's pretty cool, but it definitely could have been flushed out a little bit more. You said it was convoluted, it definitely jumbled a lot into the third act of the movie, really towards the end there. The biggest example, really, and I said that this earlier as well, is the stepmother, like why she became the quote unquote perfect doll. We may never know. What she had to do with this family at all, we will never know. And so I don't know that aspect of it. Like, I didn't necessarily mind the twist, I just don't feel like it really had a lot of like legs to stand on for being involved in the story, and it just left more questions than answers, but whatever, that's cool. It's either that or literally the acting, because it just wasn't the strongest, and it definitely showed in some moments, especially early on in the film.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:08

Sean, that's interesting because my my my listing here for best part of the movie was the beginning when things were more simple. We get a freaky doll, an annoying couple, and the threat of something horrible potentially happening with an inanimate object as the cause. And a simple recipe like that, it's kind of enjoyable. And I think we we start out really fast with a bang because it's 2006 or seven or whatever it is, and that's just how you do stuff around here. And I'm like, okay, I'm here for it. We're moving, we're not wasting time, we're jumping right in. I like it. Who knows what's gonna happen with this doll? It's simple, it's easy, it's like hitting the adrenaline all the right ways. And then as we go on, it's like, oh, but wait a second. So there's a ghost, but is she actually a ghost or is she this woman? And if you don't scream, she won't kill you. So that's all you have to do is just not scream. And then she, okay, fine, you know that. Don't scream. But then it also seems like it doesn't really matter because everyone's gonna die anyway. Whatever. I don't know. They just go down all these different paths that seemingly to me were quite unnecessary, or perhaps they didn't take the proper amount of time. If this were 15 to 30 minutes longer and it could have been spaced out more like the ring, maybe it would have been a very different experience for me. I might have been down for it because I think the ring is gold. I'm not the biggest ring fan, but I respect it for what it is. And yeah, I think that was the best part, is when at the beginning, hopes were high. It could have gone anywhere.

SPEAKER_02 1:05:35

And that's the same thing with Mary Shaw, right? Hopes were high in terms of perhaps we could see her in another life. And we may never get that. So that's definitely the best part, is her. And they did her dirty by leaving her in this one film, and we'll never get to see what she's capable of. R.I.P. really and truly.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:57

But she should have been Candyman.

SPEAKER_02 1:05:59

She would have been a great Candyman. Candyman version, whatever. You know what I'm saying? She would have been great. Hey, you never know what's to come.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:05

It is it's time for a requel.

SPEAKER_02 1:06:08

But n do we trust James One with that?

SPEAKER_00 1:06:10

No. James One can produce it. That's the way we'll go.

SPEAKER_04 1:06:14

No, he also produced the Cross of La Yorona, so no fucking thanks, sir.

SPEAKER_01 1:06:18

Really good.

SPEAKER_04 1:06:19

You know, this had potential. And I actually think when when pressed, I could watch a franchise of this if it ever came out. I could watch a sequel. I could probably watch a prequel. We could see what we'd get into. But I don't know that I would ever watch this specific movie again unless I am doing something like watching a series of killer doll movies. Or thinking about the Goosebum series that came out. It's something that's tangentially related, then maybe perhaps I'd give it a shot.

SPEAKER_01 1:06:52

I don't know. I feel like this movie definitely has some rewatch value. I think it's got Easter eggs in there that if you didn't catch the first time, you can catch the second time. I think it's just creepy enough. It's got that old school kind of campy vibe to it that I think it's fun to revisit. And then once you see the twists of the whole plot and all that stuff, and you really understand what this movie is all about when you watch it again. I think it's kind of cool to look at it through that lens because then you can look at the scenes where we're introduced to Edward and things like that. And I think you look at it a little bit differently, and I think it's a little bit fun to watch a second time. So I would dare say it definitely does have some rewatch value.

SPEAKER_02 1:07:34

Yeah, although I hacked it, I gotta agree. I think that there's no harm in re-watching this. It's a quick film, you throw it on. At the very least, you make fun of Donnie Wahlberg, you know, just put it on, sit back and relax. Do the dishes while it's playing. I don't know. It's free on streaming. Have a good time.

SPEAKER_00 1:07:52

I've seen it multiple times, not a bunch. This is my second viewing that I can remember, and I'm satisfied. I've had enough of it. I don't mean that to say like I've had enough, but I'm saying like I've had my fill. I'm good. And I think that's all you need is just twice.

SPEAKER_01 1:08:06

Think you're still gonna be thinking about this throughout the year?

SPEAKER_00 1:08:09

Probably. It's gonna it's gonna come to mind at some point, and I don't know why. It gets credit for it, for staying in my brain, because not much does, but I just don't know why it's in there.

SPEAKER_04 1:08:19

It's honestly inexplicable. But for now, there you have it, folks. Dead silence, as nominated by our patrons, has earned two hacks and two slashes. Now we've certainly had a robust discussion here, but the debate and the back and forth doesn't end here by any means.

SPEAKER_02 1:08:34

We want to know what you think. Would you be screaming if you saw Mary Shaw? I know I sure as fuck would. She's scary as hell. But either way, let us know. You can join in in the conversation by hanging out with us for free in our Discord. Click the link in our show notes to sign up.

SPEAKER_00 1:08:49

If you've enjoyed listening to this episode, consider becoming one of our patrons. Visit patreon.com slash hacker slash to enjoy more of the show with early access, extended episodes, bonus content, and live shows.

SPEAKER_03 1:09:00

We'll see you next time, folks. And remember, there are things you remember, and there are things you can't forget.

SPEAKER_01 1:09:05

And spirits have long memories.