365: Stopmotion (2023)

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Only women can, is what we've learned tonight.

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Greetings and salutations, and welcome to Hack or Slash. If you're joining us again, welcome back. Wake up, puppet. Time to work. If this is your first time listening, welcome to the party. We are a horror movie review podcast dedicated to telling you whether a movie is a hack, a total joke, a waste of time, or a slash.

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Totally killer, pun intended.

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We believe horror is for everyone, and as such, we're rating these movies with the perspective we've gained from our varying walks of life and the flavors of fear we fancy most. My name is Chris, I'm your family neighborhood slash enthusiast, and this week I'm joined by the Superfly Space Guy Mac.

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I don't have my own voice.

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The classic horror connoisseur Sean.

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Ease it, not too much.

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And the paranormal paramour, Biggs. It's fucking Barry Gibb from the Bee Gees. The people have spoken and our patrons have decided which movie we're covering this week.

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And if you support the show by being a patron or subscribe through Apple Podcasts, you'll also get to hear our B side at the end of this episode, where we get into some of our favorite stop-motion films and the excruciating process of making them.

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This week's film comes to us from writer and director Robert Morgan, who originally made a name for himself in the world of animated horror shorts. The story follows a stop-motion animator whose life begins to unravel after the death of her domineering mother. Grappling with both her grief and creative pressure, she confronts demons that may be her own, though they may not entirely be under her control. This week, after winning by one vote from our patrons, we're talking about stop motion.

SPEAKER_03 1:39

This movie was nominated by our patron Drea, who said, This was one of the two Shudder movies that I saw in theaters that actually made me sign up for Shudder. I'm not super phased by much in horror movies except for body horror. This movie is slightly predictable, but what really got me was the second half of the movie when things ramp up. The props and effects are really well done, and there is one body horror type scene near the end that I physically started to feel ill, and if the scene had gone on for another 10 seconds, I would have had to walk out of a theater to regroup myself. There's also one sound element that I noticed within the last 10 minutes or so of the movie that is one of the main reasons I want to re-watch it. It's a subtle sound effect that you don't clearly hear until the end, but I want to rewatch this movie and see how early on it starts. Overall, a really well-done film that, while predictable, is so artfully done that I was impressed it was a shutter movie.

SPEAKER_04 2:25

Well, I can't wait to see if this movie was as impactful for the rest of us, but for now, who's seen this one before?

SPEAKER_02 2:31

I did, I have I've not seen this. I've seen Puppet Master movies, but never stop motion.

SPEAKER_01 2:35

Yeah, this is one that I actually remember starting and not finishing. I don't know what that says about the movie, you know. We'll see. But in all seriousness, I think I put this one on late one night and literally just fell asleep and never got back to it until now.

SPEAKER_03 2:52

I didn't even realize that it was a shutter film. I had heard about it on social media briefly, but I never got around to seeing it. I just know people talked about it, but I had no idea where it could be watched.

SPEAKER_04 3:03

Yeah, very similar to that. I heard a lot of great things about this while it had its theatrical run. I don't remember why we didn't add this to the lineup, but I do remember hearing about this. I could have sworn Paris told me about it, and she said, doesn't ring a bell. But the mystery surrounding this, seeing Andrea's recommendation, not remembering exactly who told me about how phenomenal this movie was, it really set me on the path of thinking, okay, this is probably gonna be pretty good. I didn't want to get my hopes up too high, but knowing that this was kind of like a psychological horror film, I expected this to be really fucking creepy and really fucking tense.

SPEAKER_02 3:44

Gosh, I had no expectation set for me. I did not read the synopsis, didn't watch any trailers. I just dove right in. The only thing I kind of expected was, you know, because of the title, maybe we would have some murderous claymation or something.

SPEAKER_01 3:58

Yeah, I also didn't watch the trailer for this movie, and I didn't remember much about this movie other than the stop motion stuff in general. So I'm really expecting this one to be, I think to your point, Chris, maybe a little bit creepy, probably to be a little bit trippy, you know, with the stop motion, you're mixing in horror and all of that, because I don't know, maybe it was when I was all loopy and falling asleep on the couch, but the feeling of this movie felt like maybe a nightmare or a fever dream.

SPEAKER_03 4:31

So I honestly anticipated a low-budget film, indeed, for sure, but like that doesn't necessarily mean that it's a bad thing. If anything that interests me more, because I think that those films have definitely been hitting lately, especially in horror. It has the girl, coincidentally, from Speak No Evil, which we literally just reviewed. So that's funny. Did you guys not realize that? It's the same main girl from the most recent 2024 Speak No Evil.

SPEAKER_01 4:58

Holy shit. Yeah, oh yeah.

SPEAKER_03 5:02

So when I saw her, I was like, well, she knows how to play someone that's gone a little bananas, so I guess there's gonna be that. But I was curious about how the actual stop motion was gonna look like because I think that's what's more interesting is the idea of combining horror with live action in this particular way, assuming that the budget was gonna be low and indie. I don't even know if that's actually the case. That was just an assumption on my part, but also because I had no idea that Shudder was a part of this. So I'm sure it's actually bigger than I realized.

SPEAKER_04 5:34

For sure. And, you know, thinking about the stop motion of it all, you hear about the stop motion, you know that there's gonna be some presence of that. But I was more curious about what they would do in terms of stop motion as a metaphor for whatever story they were trying to tell. Now, one thing I had no fucking clue about was the context of the story of this film. I had zero expectations surrounding it. I didn't look up what it was about on IMDb. I walked into this with a very open mind, and I'm gonna be real, we're recording this on a Tuesday. We were supposed to record it on a Sunday, but this movie fucked me up to a certain degree. Because I hadn't looked up what it was about, I was caught off guard by the dynamic that we get between the main character and her mother. It's clearly stated on IMDB what the fuck this movie's about, and it was just completely off my radar. But this movie and its performances, its storytelling, it hit a really raw nerve because of where I am in my own life and the things that I'm contending with. And while it's certainly not to the same scale or degree or even erosion of a relationship that we see in this movie, it absolutely preyed on my tender sensibilities. So I think as we go through this episode, I'm really trying hard to separate what fucking hurts because it hurts, and then what fucking hurts because this is a good movie, and what fucking hurts because I don't know, I'm just in a weird mood. But I'm gonna tell you, when I was watching this movie in the beginning, I started crying. And I was like, well, fuck, man, this is gonna be one hell of a ride. Because you can absolutely feel what a suffocating experience this movie is. It wasn't the same feeling I ended with, but holy shit, it started me off on a very intense note.

SPEAKER_02 7:22

I think of all the things you feel while watching it, none of them are are words that mean good, that's for sure. I think I mostly just felt unwell while watching this movie. And I was eating breakfast when I turned this on. That was a mistake, okay, because if you had any appetite jumping into this, it will be destroyed. You won't only probably feel depressed and sick, but you will feel nauseated, like stomach sick, not just mentally.

SPEAKER_01 7:50

I gotta say, after watching this one again and finishing it, I can tell you that it still feels like a fucking fever dream. Like it is such a trippy ass movie. This movie is really crazy. Really I I mean, I'm Chris, you got some feels, right? But it hits you in a personal way, and I think that's very unique, right? And it might hit others in that way too. But if it doesn't hit you that way, this movie is nothing if it's not a fucking trip. And there's a lot of cool shit, but this movie also kind of feels a little bit slow. So I had a lot of mixed feelings with this one. I thought some of the visuals and effects that we got were really cool and entertaining, but I also felt like this movie was a little convoluted and gets really murky, making it almost hard to follow at times, especially in that last 20 to 30 minutes.

SPEAKER_02 8:40

It's interesting that you mentioned being able to understand, you know, Chris getting the feels. And I think I don't know if if the two of you agree, but when you texted me asking if we could push it back, no explanation was needed.

SPEAKER_03 8:52

So when she messaged that, I hadn't seen the movie yet. So I didn't even know what she was really talking about. I guess I just assumed knowing the situation at hand. And so going into this film, not knowing a single thing about it, I just knew that there would be animation, whatnot, but I didn't actually know what the movie was about. I didn't review IMDB beforehand, I didn't see a single thing about it, like I mentioned. I didn't even realize that this main girl was in the movie until her face showed up. And I was like, wow, this is hilarious. We literally just reviewed this episode last week or whatever, right? So I would say that the film, I agree, is suffocating, sad, definitely a slow descent into madness for sure. I felt like two out of the three of those things, which I would say is a passing grade. My problem is not so much the slow part, although that's definitely true. It is a bit predictable. So I think that deterred me from feeling the feels immensely and like really sinking my teeth into it as I was watching it, especially within the first 30 minutes. I knew exactly what the context that Chris was trying to provide in her warning and her text message. But I don't think that this film is trying to be some kind of like cerebral piece. I do think that it is effective in sending out that strong message about this sense of control and this lack of identity that you may have outside of a controlling relationship that you may be in, whether that's parental or it's not. I think that is extremely effective. And although I didn't resonate with it as much as I usually would have, because it seemed to be very predictable to me, I still felt that slow descent for sure, that suffocation to some extent. I just didn't feel as sad, but I did empathize for those that would feel that way for sure.

SPEAKER_04 10:49

Well, I'm glad you can empathize, but holy shit, let's talk about the trippiness of it and the descent into madness. Because what's surprising to me is how wildly different the second half of the movie is for me. For me, this starts strong, it comes out with a lot of intensity and emotional burden, and that I found to be the true horror of this movie. And that's, you know, for the listener who hasn't seen this yet, that's not what makes this a horror movie. That is just my personal perspective on it, but there's plenty of horror movie goodness that you're gonna get later on. But holy shit, I have never in my life gone from so vulnerable to so unbothered in one setting. Because trippiness is a big red flag turnoff for me, and that is something where Sean, you said it earlier, the movie feels convoluted. It started out having so much to say, and I do think it attempts to still say those same things at the end, but it just got more and more and more complex and also wild, and it seemed to be tripping over itself. There's a lot there that is very strong for a very specific horror fan, and man, this is like the tale of two halves of a movie for me because it it wasn't me, bro.

SPEAKER_01 12:11

It's true, like it's the trippiness and what it does in the second half of the movie is like a whole different ball game. And I was actually surprised by the stop motion animation segments of the film because I really didn't expect I don't know what I expected given the name of stop motion and all that, but I didn't expect it to really heavily play into the stop motion aspect of it all the way that it really did. And I think maybe it's a double-edged sword because while the stop motion was super cool, maybe they used it so much that it just got lost in the sauce somewhere in the second half of the movie. I think it was well done though. The stuff that they did looked super fucking creepy. I really enjoyed how they integrated the story into these segments of the stop motion, what they tried to do with it. I think it was really cool, the idea was really cool. But yeah, my my biggest disappointment with this movie is hard to pinpoint to just one particular thing. It really is, because ultimately I feel like they tried to do or say or show too fucking much, right? Like, and it just didn't work in its favor. I feel like it worked against it, actually. And that might be, I it I thought going into this, that might be an unpopular opinion. Maybe it's not, I don't know. We'll see, but I don't know. I think that's my that's kind of like my take on it. We'll see where everyone lands.

SPEAKER_03 13:32

I'm with you guys on that one. I think that my gripe with this film, like I shared a little bit already, is that it's a bit of a pendulum swing towards the second half, but one that I just quickly caught on to. Maybe it's the nature of our main character, what she's going through in the first 15 to 20 minutes, knowing her profession and kind of just getting this idea of like what is your identity and what is your voice, trying to not reveal too much. And it's kind of, I'm sure it's annoying even for a listener, right? Because it's a spoiler-free and you want to know the disappointments, but we can't quite get into what it is specifically, right, without revealing it. I would say, in summary, it's just a matter of how they choose to tell this story in such a dramatic, shifted way that goes from something that we can really understand to something that is very off and weird and trippy. We keep saying that word, like just this weird dysphoria. And it's odd because I guess it is so starkly different. But here's the one warning I'll give you, and it's definitely my biggest surprise. There is body horror that is incorporated into this film. So we talk a lot about animation and stop motion, but there is a lot of body horror in this film that I was not expecting. And I have to agree with Drea, our patron, who nominated this. That particular scene that she's talking about really had me sick. And When Evil Lurks is one of my favorite films that we've reviewed. And I watched that one while having breakfast. We've definitely regretted that. This is one that I was having. If obviously we're doing this on video, but for our listeners, so you can see what I'm holding up here. I ate spinach and artichoke dip, okay? This one that I'm holding in my hands while watching this movie. That has to be one of the stupidest things I've ever done in my 32 years of life.

SPEAKER_01 15:34

Love it.

SPEAKER_03 15:35

And if it had been red, like some type of red pepper hummus. Even better. Absolutely, fuck not.

SPEAKER_04 15:41

Yeah. For sure, there's body horror. But this is what's wild to me. When evil orcs fucked me up with a body horror, I felt like I was gonna throw up looking at the particular scene that we're not gonna discuss at length here. You can go listen to that episode. But this body horror did not phase me in the slightest.

SPEAKER_02 16:02

I was disappointed from the get-go, right? And so it it was working against itself for the rest of the movie for me because Chris, you grabbed onto something with our main character and could kind of align and empathize. I was still just pissed because once again, people with chronic illnesses are depicted as burdens upon somebody in their life. Looking at you, Night Swim, it's just upsetting, right? And so that's how we're starting the movie off, is that's what's on my mind, and everything else. I've lost a lot of respect. But then you're anticipating some kind of really strong growth and really strong character arc, and I don't feel like we got that anyway. And so when you're talking about is it scary or not, I don't even care. You know what I mean? Like, whatever happens to any of the characters at that point, not interested. So there's no stakes because whatever could happen, I'm fine with. Not much does happen, let's just say that. And so, yeah, the stuff that we get on the screen, I'm kind of like, that's gross, but I'm not worried about it.

SPEAKER_04 17:01

I think it's hilarious that Mac has the biggest like fuck you, Mac energy that I think I've ever seen him have on the show. Listen, there's a lot in this movie that is terrifying, but it's not the movie. It is a lot of the subtext of the dynamics and the characters. That's it. So, Mac, I think what's really interesting is you identifying this reality that there's another movie that paints someone with chronic illness as a burden. And from my perspective, I'm not looking at the chronic illness being the burden, but rather how someone is leveraging that chronic illness to control and suffocate another person and diminish their value or sense of self and identity. And that for me is the real horror, right? So there's stuff in here that can be real fucky, but I'm so glad that for Binks it's the body horror. That's pretty gross.

SPEAKER_03 17:56

It really was. And I go back to what I said about empathizing with those that can relate to that degree because it's pretty apparent how toxic the situation is in this film. Definitely. I think whether you've been in those shoes, you know someone that's in those shoes or not, it's very in your face and obvious. I think what's odd is just how it turns itself, how it develops, where it goes. And then you just kind of forget what kind of film you started off with a little bit. But in terms of fear, I would say that's definitely the toxic relationship and what you were talking about. Yeah, that's definitely in the more humanized level of fear. Yeah. For me, it's the body horror. That was something that I did not expect. I also would say if you are extremely prone to getting carried away with your imagination, this movie might, I don't know, itch something or or trigger something for you. I only say that because I know a couple people that are kind of like that would probably take what our main character goes through and what they're experiencing and just run with it in the middle of the night. But other than that, I think that this film isn't that scary, but I it's not one that I would recommend to people that are usually scared at all. Like this is not the entry-level horror kind of film, in my opinion.

SPEAKER_01 19:14

Yeah. No, that's fair. I I don't think it's a super scary film. I also don't think like the body horror of it all is that intense either. I do think that the movie is just creepy. I think it just got creepy vibes, you know? Like everything about this movie just doesn't feel right, you know? And creepy is probably just the better way to say it because I think this movie did a great job at creating some of those really creepy looking visuals and scenes. And there were some moments that to your point, Binks, I can see some people getting scared from. If you're easily scared, this one will probably get under your skin a little bit, but it's definitely not one that I feel like will dwell too long in your head. Like, I think it's gonna be there in the moment, unless it hits you in some way, but like outside of that, I don't see this one really sticking with you and and really creating that sense of fear within you.

SPEAKER_04 20:05

For sure. But I can at least commend it for having a different approach to telling this story. When I was watching this, I was actually thinking about the film Oma.

SPEAKER_01 20:14

Oh, for sure.

SPEAKER_03 20:15

Yes, wow.

SPEAKER_04 20:16

It came out, it had a very quiet theatrical experience. We discussed this, it was just Paris and I. When we reviewed it, I'll drop a link in the show notes to the episode. But it's a similar feeling and it's a similar theme, but done completely differently, very different culture, very different dynamics, and I can appreciate the use of stop motion and the exploration of someone's career with that. Oma, I think, had a really great take on like generational trauma and how the impacts of one generation trickles down to the next. But this one in particular takes the horrors of real things that you will inevitably encounter at some point in your life, either you yourself with your aging parents or someone you know with their aging parents, etc. And it plays on that and fucking ups the ante. I just wish I had done it a little better.

SPEAKER_02 21:15

I mean, I'm gonna give it credit for its use of stop motion, right? We don't see that a ton these days, which is fun. I think if you're any sort of fan of horror, you've seen a lot of stop motion. It was popular all the way through what, like the 1980s to use stop motion mixed with live action. And I think the difference here is it's almost meta because stop motion is part of the subject within the movie, yet we're using it in a way to you know create another level of reality within this film. It's an interesting blend, and I don't know, I don't think we've seen enough of it since at least since the 80s as well.

SPEAKER_01 21:55

I I think you make a really good point because the body horror of it all. Is there. Like, I'm not arguing the body horror. It's just, I don't think the body horror was that crazy. But it's got elements of that like Cronenberg feel, right? It's got elements of Puppet Master in there. But the credit really comes down to what you're talking about, Mac. You just have not seen a lot, if any, horror movies that integrate stop motion animation quite the way this movie did, the way it weaves the story through the stop motion stuff. And it just feels kind of cool and kind of different, you know?

SPEAKER_03 22:29

Yeah, I would say also just seeing it from the lens of an animator is kind of unique in a way. We don't see that often. We do get it a lot from writers in general. So that's like that very thin hair-like line with this film because she is a writer to some extent, obviously a storyteller. She's an animator more specifically. So that element is cool. But this idea of a writer losing themselves into madness, I mean, we've got The Shining, we've got Sinister, we've got all of these things that we've seen reviewed, all these bigger blockbusters. I could give a long ass list. But also the dynamic between a mother and daughter, like this one explores, reminds me a lot of Carrie. And that one, just more particularly because I just recently rewatched it. It's one of my favorite movies ever. But just to kind of give you an example of how I don't want to say unoriginal, but kinda, you know, like we've seen that too. It's just very particular because I love how you phrased it, Chris, because it's using illness to some degree as a weapon. And that that very specific thing is something we don't see too, too often, but Uma for sure is a great, great reference point. That one was an underrated film. Wish I'd been on that episode or on the pod, but then because that one was a good one.

SPEAKER_04 23:53

Who knows? Maybe we can rewind it one day.

SPEAKER_03 23:55

I am down. But I think that in general, though, although unoriginal, I would say that the ending is like a a decently full circle moment to some extent. The very last bit of it, although it is a wild ride into something else that it isn't the first half of the film. Nonetheless, I think that there are certain moments in the ending that I was like, nice, that's a decent call back. All right, I get it. I see what you're doing here. I see the seeds that you planted earlier on, why certain scenes and dialogue was written in the way that it was written, so that this ending can kind of give you that peak level of discomfort, at least for me. And at least a shocking visual, but the shocking visual is specifically that body horror that I keep talking about because it just felt real personal, okay? It felt real personal.

SPEAKER_04 24:48

I wish I could even pinpoint what that body horror is. I cannot wait to actually hear what that is when we unpack it later. But let me tell you this. Listen, third act of this film, it just continued going in a direction not unlike the way I felt about Smile 2, which is like, well, this couldn't possibly end in any productive way. That feels good for anybody. But when the movie ended and we got our end credits, those titles started coming up, I think I literally said, What the fuck? That's it.

SPEAKER_01 25:21

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 25:22

I was so dissatisfied with the ending of this film.

SPEAKER_01 25:26

It's interesting. I I don't know that I'm tracking with the Smile 2, because I think Smile 2 at least allowed the audience to get there. You know what I mean?

SPEAKER_04 25:36

For sure. When I think about the quality of the endings, Smile 2 had a good ending. It was like one of the ones that you don't want.

SPEAKER_01 25:43

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 25:43

But what I do mean is like the absurdity of things that are happening, it just hits a certain level where you're like, well, this isn't gonna end well for anybody. That's what this movie felt like.

SPEAKER_01 25:53

The ending in this movie is where I feel like the movie really suffers the most. I think it just got to be a little bit too much, you know. There was shit going on all over the place. We had shit going on with Ella, there was shit still going on, tying back to her mom. There's shit going on with this little girl and the fucking Ash Man. Like the story went deep. And if you're not careful, it can fucking lose you real quick.

SPEAKER_02 26:17

That shit was giving quicksand. See, I don't even know if it's the depth that gets to me here. The ending is weird, it's grotesque, it's disgusting, it's over the top. The rest of the movie was also weird and grotesque and disgusting. I think what happens here though is it, like you said, Chris, it goes balls to the wall. It just goes wild. You're getting an ending here kind of like American Psycho. You're getting an ending that reminds me a little bit of Neon Demon, where it just has to keep pushing. And it's not even about a sense of closure. It's not about an arc. It's not about telling a story when we get to the end. And I think that's what kind of hit me the wrong way here is it's like, well, I thought we were going to head a certain way with character development. I thought that was kind of be the focus of this film. The ending of this movie just feels like we smashed into a brick wall.

SPEAKER_03 27:05

Wow, I really disagree with these takes. I can't wait to just get into it and unveil what this ending is. That's so interesting. Well, how did we feel about Braid? Now our listeners are screaming and they're like cheering because I know they are diehard about this film. Well, at least a good chunk of our patrons are. But I feel like this movie's a lot like Braid in terms of how weird and trippy it gets, or it tries to be like Braid, but it isn't. And Braid is a film, if you haven't heard of this one, it's got that same vibe to it where it starts off where you think you know something, but then it kind of just gets into this weird high, quite literally. So this film, though, however, doesn't seem like it's that deep. Like the the balls to the wallness and the trippiness isn't actually that trippy, in my opinion. Like it's pretty I feel like it was pretty clear to track, right? No?

SPEAKER_04 27:54

Is it clear to track? Yes. Is it absurd as fuck? Also, yes. Braid is a movie where you can barely tell which way you're looking, right?

SPEAKER_03 28:06

So Braid is more effective for sure.

SPEAKER_04 28:08

Yes. It's almost like when you lose your equilibrium and let's say you're swimming at night, you get disoriented. Spatial disorientation, I think is it's called. You don't know which way is up. Braid is giving spatial disorientation. This is not, but it almost escalates in a way that wants you to believe it's just like, wow, this is so crazy. And it just doesn't feel that good.

SPEAKER_03 28:34

However, in the ending specifically, though, I would say that although that is the case, I agree with you. For the main character herself, I felt like the ending had to be that way. It was a good bit of closure to her character arc because again, that specific moment wasn't something that was so out of left field, or a part of the spatial disorientation, I should say.

SPEAKER_04 28:58

Right. I think what it is for me is that I need something with a little more hope.

SPEAKER_01 29:02

You see, I don't care about the hope part. I am never bought the hope. I'm usually not either, and I don't think it was the hopelessness that got me. I think I got the point of the movie. It didn't lose me. I think people can get lost, but I do feel like it was doing too much.

SPEAKER_03 29:16

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 29:16

Okay. I have a something equivalent to the feeling of the ending of this movie where filmmakers are always trying to subvert expectations, but in a way, you don't need to 99% of the time, you know? And so I think of this quote, let the past die, kill it if you have to. All right. This idea, it's just like you don't need to flip everything on its head. And I think you mentioned a word that really summed up the feeling of the ending for me, Binks, and it was the word try. And I think that's the end of this movie. They're trying when they should be doing.

SPEAKER_04 29:49

All right, can't wait to get into it. Well, a lot of mixed feelings so far. I can't wait to see how this actually shakes out in our ratings. Before we get there, Sean, how would you describe the gore score?

SPEAKER_01 30:00

Well, this is an interesting one because for the amount of actual gore we get, I kind of want to give it low, but the moments that we do get are uncomfortable and disturbing, and there are moments that linger long enough without taking you out of the moment to maybe justify a medium gore score. So I think this is like one of those movies that can go either way, in my opinion, and it's just easier to give it a medium low gore score.

SPEAKER_04 30:26

And what about the animal report?

SPEAKER_03 30:28

Well, this one's very easy because it's not looking real good for wildlife here. So I would say brace yourself because it's sure as hell not safe.

SPEAKER_04 30:37

Well, we'll go ahead and get into our ratings then. Stop motion from 2023. It won the patron vote by a single vote, and it was nominated by Drea. Is it a hack or a slash?

SPEAKER_02 30:48

Gosh. It's always a bummer to have to hack things that are nominated by patrons because we love the patrons, and I love that you love this, but this was just an unenjoyable watch for me. It was depressing, unappetizing, disappointing in the story, like I mentioned, disappointing in the characters in many ways. Visually, it was disgusting quite often, which could have been in its favor if the rest of the mood just wasn't so damn low and slow and murky. It gave me a bit of reflux. And so for that reason, it's a hack.

SPEAKER_01 31:22

You know, I feel like the patrons will understand because it really was kind of like down the middle. You know, there's gonna be a good portion that are on the hack side, and I think I like a lot of what this movie did. I really do. I like a lot of what it did. The stop motion animation was very creative and creatively woven into the story of this dark and twisted tale. There were some moments that were genuinely creepy, and I can appreciate a good psychological horror flick. But this one I feel like dived too far into the psyche of this poor, tortured soul of Ella's, a true tale of the tortured artist, if I ever saw one, you know? And it's got this, your point, what you said, Binx, it's got this descent into madness, similar to The Shining, but The Shining focuses more on Jack's isolation and the hotel as being the catalyst for Jack's descent into madness, while this movie focuses more on the artistic process itself as being the catalyst. And I think as we slowly descend into madness alongside our main character, Ella, things start to get a little bit fucking weird. And this movie dives deep into this character's trauma, maybe deeper than we wanted to go. Maybe that's the uncomfortable feeling of it all, and it's here where it feels like it starts to become a little bit too much, at least for me. And I appreciate the depth that this story has, but it fails to deliver to me a coherent story that allows the audience to really play along. I think it just does too much, and overall I like what they were saying, but it took too long to get there, and I think that they just did too much, and because of that, it's more stop than motion for me, so it's a hack.

SPEAKER_03 33:06

You know, this is not going the way that I thought it was going to go. And it's kind of funny because I was a little bit on the fence. But here's the thing: I would say that this film definitely starts with a great first impression with a scene that kind of gives you a glimpse of this like inner turmoil you're about to witness unfold that we've already talked about a few times already. And some of the best parts of the film, I think, are all thanks to the production team that really do something different here, mixing animation and live action really well for an indie production for the most part. And I think that the film definitely managed to give me the creeps for sure. Uncomfortable, ick, all of those words that I didn't get to use earlier. That was felt most certainly. And I think that I really appreciated the weight of this plot and the relationships that we're seeing. But after a while, I think because I was already tracking what was going on and I found it all predictable, I kind of just let that go real quick. Like once that first half of the film ends, the rest, when when shit does hit the fan, like we keep saying, I'm like, all right, here's a film that I've seen 5,000 times before. And I think that this is gonna be one, I think Sean, you mentioned it, that's polarizing regardless, obviously, as we can clearly see in this recording already. It's gonna be your cup of tea or it isn't. If you like art house films, I think you might enjoy this. I personally don't think it's that mindfuckish and like cerebral, like I said earlier, because again, if you are like me, that you consume that kind of media and those stories often, I think you can catch what's going on very fast. But I'm going to actually give this a slash. But it's specifically because of that production team. And I think that that's the part that if you just enjoy a visually appealing film and a decent good time, then this could be the film for you. It's one that's on the fence. I can see that, obviously. But I'm gonna give it its flowers for that production team for its visual appeal. I think some of the performances are also really great. We haven't touched much on that either. That's what really swayed this over the 51%.

SPEAKER_04 35:20

Well, hey, so glad you showed that, Binks, because let's just take a moment to remember the core spirit of our show focuses on how different people raised in different socioeconomic backgrounds, who all have all lived different experiences, all received the same film and just how varied those experiences could be, right? While we often find common ground, the experiences I've had and are living through are very different from Mac, who is incredibly different from John, who is incredibly different from Binks, and we're conditioned to think differently, to feel differently, and to watch differently. This movie hit me, and it's probably because and this has occurred to me as you're all speaking and sharing your own results, for all we've spoken tonight about descent into madness. This movie hit me probably because the last two years of my life have felt like my own descent into fucking madness. Very early on in this movie, I realized it was gonna fuck me up, and it did fuck me up until it stopped doing that. And I don't know that I've ever experienced such an intensely hot and Arctic cold sensation in the same film, and that's problematic for me. I was willing to go there, my heart was on the table, I was in it, I was vulnerable, I was along for the ride, but the execution of this film fumbled. Our leading lady delivers an incredible performance, and I have so much to say about her and the dynamics between her and her mother in the spoiler zone. I can't wait to talk about her. The stop motion is absolutely rad. I'd watch a whole movie of just the Ash Men. The allegory is strong, but the mechanics of this execution are just too messy for me. And I think as much as I hate to say this, and I really hate to say this, I might need to suffer through this again. I might need to watch it one more time, unclouded and unbiased when I'm in a better headspace. And I think I need to do that to really know where I stand. For now, it's strongly a hack. And with that, stop motion from 2023 has earned three hacks and one slash. Sorry, Drea. We still love you, and I hope you love us. Now you can find this movie streaming online because while we've had a robust discussion here, there's a lot more to discuss when we return from our break, and we need you up to speed for that conversation. If you've already seen this, please let us know in our Discord server what you'd rate it. We want to hear from you. You can find the link to join that conversation in our show notes. And when we return from break, we're gonna dive deep into the spoiler zone territory, figure out which body horror Binks is talking about, and maybe she can sway us on this ending. We'll see you in a bit.

SPEAKER_01 38:10

In a world where perfection is stitched together one frame at a time, where every movement tells a story, and every story has a price. Margaret just wanted to finish her masterpiece.

SPEAKER_00 38:23

Just one more scene, and it'll all be perfect.

SPEAKER_01 38:26

But when her creations start moving on their own, you're not supposed to move yet. She'll discover that perfection comes at a price.

SPEAKER_00 38:35

Finish us, Margaret!

SPEAKER_01 38:37

From the people who brought you Clave Ancient Carnage and the Animator's Torment comes the heartwarming tale of art, obsession, and homicidal puppets.

SPEAKER_00 38:49

You can't frame me.

SPEAKER_01 38:51

This summer, get ready for motion.

SPEAKER_00 38:54

Why are you unionizing? I made you equal pay for equal play.

SPEAKER_01 39:01

Because art imitates life, and sometimes it tries to kill you. Coming soon to a theater near you.

SPEAKER_04 39:24

Now we have a lot to get to here, but before we get into the specifics of our ratings, let's go through those kills.

SPEAKER_01 39:29

While we don't really get many kills in this movie, we see a total of four deaths, one of which was not real, one was not really shown, but arguably the most impactful one, leaving us with two on-screen kills, both of which I think were pretty brutal. So I just gotta know, out of all of these four kills, what did y'all think?

SPEAKER_04 39:52

I always, and this is like a shout out to Halloween Resurrection, I always fucking love when someone gets stabbed in the neck with a tripod.

SPEAKER_01 40:03

Dude.

SPEAKER_04 40:03

Fuck a bitch named Polly. It was brutal. Polly Pocket.

SPEAKER_01 40:07

We weren't just stabbing somebody in the neck. It felt like we were grinding that thing into the neck, you know what I mean?

SPEAKER_04 40:14

I think from just like working in video production for so long and having many different types of tripods, but particularly the one where you can remove the feet and you have sharp pointed tripod legs that can anchor themselves into the ground. Man, what a great fucking weapon. And I just remember thinking, hey, if an unfortunate emergency were to arise, at least I'm armed with something I can defend myself with. And every time I see it in a movie, I feel vindicated. Nice.

SPEAKER_03 40:44

I've got like three tripods in this house. I'm fucking stacked. Let someone come for me.

SPEAKER_02 40:48

Polly's kill was like honestly the only real horror movie kill of this movie. You know, I mean, Suzanne dies from a stroke.

SPEAKER_01 40:55

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 40:56

We get a fake out kill.

SPEAKER_01 40:57

The Philly fake out.

SPEAKER_02 40:58

Which was a good one. I mean, I think by that point, hopefully, 80% of the folks realized what was going on there. Yeah. Because as soon as we saw the little girl, Dong already knew who she was. But I was like, okay, not everyone will. That's okay.

SPEAKER_04 41:11

Yeah. We love your inner child. Can't kill your inner child, no matter how dead she seems.

SPEAKER_02 41:16

Right. And she tried, but no, you can't. Yeah. But I just want to know what was Tom's kill.

SPEAKER_04 41:22

Bullshit is what it was. Hold on.

SPEAKER_01 41:24

It felt a little personal, man. The push down the stairs wasn't bad enough, but to be suffocated in like the worst way possible, like it felt a little bit blunt and personal.

SPEAKER_04 41:34

Worst way or most improbable way?

SPEAKER_01 41:37

What do you mean?

SPEAKER_03 41:38

Okay. So hold on, hold on. So I wrote that. I feel like his kill is a great callback to when they were in bed and she that's how she basically like wakes him up. It's like a cute little endearing thing to, I guess, suffocate him, lol, stop him from snoring. I thought about it. I was like, damn, that's a good way to scare someone when they're snoring and wake them up. But also terrible.

SPEAKER_01 42:01

Don't fall asleep near Bings.

SPEAKER_03 42:03

I said terrible. Everyone relax. The point is, is that the callback, right? Also just the general asphyxiation thing that she's got going on, which we talked about it even earlier. The film feels suffocating. Therefore, two out of the four of these kills was asphyxiation. Shocker, not quite. I mean, seems pretty obvious, but here's my thing. It did feel like, brother, you can't fight her off? That seems odd. At least the attempt of a fight off. Okay, but hold on. Because also those were some steep ass stairs and a lot of so truthfully, could we assume that some spinal damage was done and some general like dizziness, just I don't know, all kinds of excuses that I want to provide to be able to justify how he can't fight her off.

SPEAKER_02 42:48

Receipts. Prove it. Do something.

SPEAKER_04 42:51

Excuse number one, Tom's little bitch. Excuse number two, the idea of such an intimate kill is intense.

SPEAKER_01 43:00

Intimate. That's what I was thinking of.

SPEAKER_04 43:01

It's not so much that I don't want to believe in it, so much as it's it didn't even look like a good seal over the mouth. It just didn't sell it for me.

SPEAKER_02 43:12

Yeah, there needed to be some force, more force than was involved in that gentle covering of his face. And okay, that trip down the stairs that he took, sure, let's say it really damaged him. You gotta do something to show like make him scream out in pain instead of him just collapsing, make him do an awkward posture that makes it obvious that something has disabled this dude. Instead, it seems like he tripped down the stairs and he fell asleep, and she softly covered his face until he died.

SPEAKER_01 43:42

I did not feel that way. Like I did not look into this kill that much. I felt like dude got pushed down the stairs, didn't think much of it. Like, yeah, he's obviously injured. I I would be hard pressed to see anybody take a tumble down a flight of stairs and not have an injury. Okay, but he could be. Concussed for all we know. He could just be out of it and loopy. You know what I mean? Like, we don't know. There's a number of things that could be happening to this dude, and I also didn't feel like it was just a gentle covering of his face.

SPEAKER_04 44:10

In addition, I just gotta say it. We talk about this fucking kill. Think about all these final girls who are falling downstairs and just have to, you know, limp on through it. Tom needed a little more fight. I'm just saying.

SPEAKER_03 44:24

Only women can, is what we've learned tonight. Only women can.

SPEAKER_02 44:30

Oh man.

SPEAKER_03 44:31

And I'm here for that.

SPEAKER_02 44:32

We can crap on this movie a lot for the failures that it had, but I gotta give it credit. It's disgusting to look at for most of the film. And when he's turned into what would you even call that? A figure, a puppet, whatever. He and Polly become these things. They're nasty. They're just gross. But at the beginning of the film, we get some lovely stop motion animation. We get some really cool looking, neat little characters. And I was here for that. Before we started integrating meat and corpses into the animation, I was enjoying that stuff. You know, make those little dudes come to life and attack the main characters. I'm here for it. At least they're nice to look at.

SPEAKER_03 45:10

The stop motion is really great. I disagree about the meat and incorporating it into the stop motion because that's what makes it a horror. If not, I'm fucking I'm watching Frank and Weenie, like we're talking about. I'm watching Nightmare Before Christmas. I'm watching all the other little, you know, sad or Coraline. Actually, I'm watching Coraline because that's a perfect correlation there. I won't get into it too much because Chris famously has not seen Coraline listeners. We can unpack that in the B sides. Please listen. But I would say that that incorporation of the meat and everything like that is just so divine and a testament to, again, why the production team is the sole reason and the main reason that people should watch this movie at least because they knocked it out of the park.

SPEAKER_04 45:53

Yeah. I also, though, want to highlight there's the moments where they're talking about the three times the Ashman visits, and on one of those times, she goes to her door and she sees a bloody eye staring back at her in the peephole. Yeah. Fucking fantastic. That's the horror movie shit we're talking about here. The puppets, the stop motion characters. Listen, it was really fucking cool. I liked it. I can also say they look really fucking weird. That's fine. That's also two things can be true.

SPEAKER_03 46:24

Yeah. I would say that not so much the stop motion, but when they come to life, like the Ash Men coming to life, that reminded me a lot of Guillermo de Toro's work in general. Like Crimson Peak, Kronos, like that kind of stuff that he's done. It reminded me a lot of that. So if that's your bag, you know, I would say again, you can give it its flowers for that. The costume design was really cool, specifically when they're working on the animated movie in the beginning, and obviously she wears the costume at the end. It seems so like surgical. It was giving dead ringers a little bit. I don't know. It was just so cold in a sense. And the sound design. Yeah. I know that Sean and I were talking about it when we were kind of in between recording. The sound is so like ASMR in an uncomfortable way. It almost seems like they put the mic inside these figurines that felt like maybe they were made out of felt or something, because it made me feel like I was the characters in the stop-motion film, in a sense. It was very creative, very weird.

SPEAKER_01 47:35

It's so true that the stop motion animation in this film is one of the best parts of the movie because it gives you like all of those kind of feelings. I would even throw Pan's Labyrinth in the mix with that in some weird kind of way, right? Maybe a little bit darker and more gruesome, but I think you can definitely throw that in there. But yes, Binks, I think there is something to be said about the sound in this movie because when you're going through some of these stop-motion sequences, the sounds in the background almost gives you, I don't know, it almost gives the scenes like texture, if that makes sense. Like it that I think that's kind of like what you're alluding to a little bit. You can almost feel these like gushy, gory scenes. You can feel the sound in this movie.

SPEAKER_04 48:22

When something sounds wet, super gross, it really adds another layer of dimension.

SPEAKER_02 48:26

I was getting some Mr. Bill though when the little girl stop motion character does the little hmm, like just weird sounds. I was like, oh no, they're trying to hurt me. That's all I was getting from that.

SPEAKER_04 48:40

Oh no. Listen, for as great as a stop motion is, I want to reveal that my favorite scene in this movie has almost nothing to do with stop motion. And that is when she's in the hospital taking photos of her mom's hand, as if to recreate uh her own stop motion animation of her mother coming back to life. Because holy shit, this was the last, like, really solid fucking moment for me where I felt really hooked into again their dynamic, their connection, etc. I was honestly shocked that it took as long as it did for her mother to die. But for her to be manipulating the hands and then her mother to come back and say, It's a wonderful medium, isn't it? Bringing dead things to life. It was chilling. But it's their conversation after that I think really underscores their entire dynamic, and that is what feels suffocating in this movie. Ella says, I'm the one living my life. It's my turn. The fact that she feels like her life is on pause while she is the hands for her mother's final film. Her mother says, You can't control anything. You're a puppet caught in your own strings. And if it isn't me pulling them, it'll be someone else. When the puppets are done with their play, they go back in the box. Ella cannot breathe for herself. And every fucking word in this exchange absolutely cut me a million fucking ways. This is the moment like we talked about what a strong impression the first opening scene in this movie has, and what that entire span of time has. But it was this scene that really planted its flag in holy shit, the characters in this movie are phenomenal. The dialogue in this movie, up until this point, really fucking strong. I wish the rest of the movie did justice to this moment.

SPEAKER_03 50:33

I'm just curious to see what that kind of film would look like. Because where would it go knowing that the mom would have to die? You know what I'm saying? Like, so what what does that look like knowing that this is happening when the mother passes away? I'm just curious. What is it specifically that makes you feel like, okay, well, that that got lost? Is it her basically losing her shit?

SPEAKER_04 50:58

Here's the thing the mother has to die. I'm surprised it took as long as it did, once again.

SPEAKER_01 51:03

Me too.

SPEAKER_04 51:04

She can go on her path of destruction and really battling and contending with her grief and processing that and rediscovering herself and finding herself. But I think for me, and again, it's a very personal thing, I think I just need a little bit more hope. Not that every movie needs a happy ending by any means, but you have a a woman who lives in service to her mother. And even in this quote, she says, When the puppets are done with their play, they go back in the box, and then Ella literally puts herself back in the box. And I get it, it's poetic, it's supposed to be the thing, and it's the parallel that's being drawn. But holy shit, give me some fight, give me someone persevering through that because I don't want to fucking see her just putting herself to bed in her own coffin.

SPEAKER_03 51:50

But this is where I disagree in the ending. Because to me, if you notice, she is smiling and she is happy and she is fulfilled. Why? Because she finally, quote unquote, has her own voice. She made her film. She also told, Well, this is why I'm so glad she fucking killed Polly, because fuck that bitch. She basically got rid of and lost her shit, yes. And not that I'm commending her actions entirely, I'm just joking. But in reality, by getting rid of the opposition in terms of restraining her from speaking her own voice, Polly and Tom both don't even think that she's capable of having her own voice, just much like her mother didn't, right? So she fought her way to be able to tell her story, to have her voice, to finish her film and she's done and she's complete and now she's fulfilled. Sure. So is it back in her coffin? Yes, in one way, but you can find the hope right there if you want to, I guess. Like I don't know. I guess I I saw the hope in it, which is odd that you didn't.

SPEAKER_04 52:54

It is an interesting brand of hope when she has committed homicide and her career is done. And it's a specific point of view on what hope is, but I would have loved to have some version of this story, and maybe it's not a horror movie, and that's okay. There we go. It doesn't have to be a horror movie.

SPEAKER_03 53:13

I think that's what it is. Because it's a horror movie, yes, this is not someone who's supposed to be a hero. There's not a supernatural element that she's battling against like this a smile, you know? I think that that's where if this was a drama, absolutely, then I wouldn't have liked this as much.

SPEAKER_04 53:30

Yeah, I would have respected this and liked this as a non-horror movie. Because I think for as powerful as the beginning of this movie is and the dynamic between Ella and her mother is, I think I just needed something with a little bit more hope, personally.

SPEAKER_02 53:44

I don't even think it's necessarily hope that's the issue for me here because she is attacking the wrong person here. I think the focus changes in this film, and that's what feels off when we start to kind of move throughout the story, is that in the beginning we're focusing on her, we're focusing on her mother, we're focusing on that dynamic, and we're focusing on the fact that she recognizes that this is broken and toxic and that growth needs to happen. And then we have this shift where she's being persuaded by the little girl that is actually her, but this little girl is helping to reinforce the idea that she needs to be controlled and told what to do because she's controlling her and telling her what to do. And so she eventually gets there where she attacks a little girl, realizes that she can't, but she does that way too late. I think she should have grown beyond the constraints of her like preconceived notions of what her life needs to be and who she is as a person. She should have been working past that. She should have been succeeding despite this opposition and not, well, if you can't beat them, kill them. You know, she should have been showing them really what was inside of her. And these nightmares she was having. I mean, one of my favorite scenes of this film is when she gets turned into the tiny little stop-motion character and has to run away from the Ash Man. Absolutely. And slips through the wall, and then she makes it into that weird golden room. That whole segment was gorgeous and creepy at the same time, but I like the idea that we finally get to see in her brain, now that she's computing, I'm this little person. We just never get to the point where she realizes that she has to and can control her own destiny. It just plays into this idea that like the whole thing is written out for her by this little girl, by the ghosts of her past. But in reality, she should be forging her own future. And I think that was maybe it's maybe it's hopeful. Maybe that's what I'm I'm thinking of here. But I think we should have been working through her issues and not like pushing her issues to be even more in control of her than the person was in control of her.

SPEAKER_03 55:44

But the reality is that that would have required her to have people in her corner and around her that would have facilitated that kind of reflection and confidence. And the people that she does have around her don't even believe in her. And it's not like she's going to therapy.

SPEAKER_02 56:00

Aaron Powell, I would have preferred that she find it within herself rather than having to get it externally. Right. And that's I thought we were headed that way. I thought that these little scenes that were being animated when she was not conscious, I thought that was gonna help us get there. I think that's why I liked that scene, you know, because finally, all right, she sees that she's the girl and now she's gotta she's gotta do something with that information and move the story in a way that she decides. Yeah. But then they drop the ball there.

SPEAKER_01 56:25

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 56:26

In my book.

SPEAKER_01 56:27

I agree though, that was a really great scene. And I think even like the early-on scenes where they're first starting to tell that story, and you get the scenes of like the Ash Man like coming around to, you know, to the rooms before you get the whole scene in the third act when she's tripping out and the Ashman comes crawling out of the mound of the table or whatever, and then she becomes the wax figure, you know what I mean, and starts running. But even the scenes where this tale is first being told by the little girl, I think were really well done. But there's just like so many great little segments of this film. You know, Chris, you mentioned like the bloody eye peephole thing, like that was super good. There's even like uh a nightclub scene that I feel like was like a trip-out scene that it feels it felt like she was on some like drug-induced psychosis trip-out, like she was like Val Kilmer in the doors or something like that. Like that it brought me to like that movie for some reason. So there was a lot of really cool stuff happening here for sure, but just listen to everyone's takes, and I don't know if we could really make a better movie. I think maybe there's like some deeper trauma here, and maybe to an extent, the mother is not the main antagonist. Maybe there is some abuse here for sure. Maybe the mother being gone in, you know, maybe in like a coma or whatever caused this separation where she wasn't being controlling, and Ella was able to think for herself and resurface some of this trauma and takes her down to this descent into madness that we're talking about. And maybe at the end of the movie it switches it up and she's able to pull the plug on her mom, and now she's pulling the strings. Maybe that would have been a crazy ending. I don't know. But I still think all that stuff before, like the mom not dying in that way, I think still kind of plays in. So I actually couldn't wait to like talk about that because there was one thing on my mind with this whole trauma aspect and the mother and the ash man. And I think the ash man is very interesting. Like, right, we have the little girl, which we know is a younger representation of Ella, but I feel like there is something curious about the Ash Man and what he represents. Like, does he have significance, a potential male figure surfacing from deep within her self-conscious? Maybe there is something with a father figure that we don't know about, maybe a boyfriend of her mother's, maybe some kind of abuse happening there. You know what I mean? I don't know.

SPEAKER_03 58:52

Yeah, that's a good point. I could see that. I think that it's right, which, like you're saying, like could we? I don't know, but there's definitely other options that could have been at the table to tell this story. In general, I would have wanted to see more of the interactions between the mother and the daughter. So, although, yeah, I'm surprised that she was alive for as long as she was in the film. I really wasn't anticipating for her to have had the stroke so early on to begin with. And that scene in particular is my favorite. That moment where she's getting on her ass essentially for the millimeter to the left. Like, you don't know what a millimeter, like just basically being so toxic, so controlling that frustration, it was really tense. That was a moment that got to me more than I expected, really under my skin. It was like a different kind of fear for sure.

SPEAKER_02 59:45

It's good up front to really show the extent of the control in the relationship because you know, obviously her mom's a filmmaker, her mom might be just that controlling every time she's working on a film, just internally, perhaps that's how her brain's computing when she was able to do stuff before arthritis took her hands from her. Who knows? But I think we can infer with their relationship that she's that way about everything. The food and stuff, that's I think a little bit less about control. And I think that just has to do with the fact that you need human-sized pieces of of meat to bite. And come on, just be courteous. But I think every other moment between the two of them is subtle, but it really shows that there is this history that she doesn't think very much of her daughter, especially when it comes to her daughter's own independence. And I think the fact that she calls her puppet is very normal. That's just a little term of endearment. But it also helps to kind of embellish the point here that to her, she is just this little thing, this cute little thing.

SPEAKER_04 1:00:44

Yeah, there's the cute little thing of it all, and it's exactly that dynamic that makes their relationship so problematic because it's never looking at or seeing or respecting Ella as an adult, as a person, as someone with her own identity, and that's what makes the entire beginning of this movie so infuriatingly heartbreaking. Obviously, Ella is living with her mom, caring for her. Mom's the brains, she's the hands, but the support that she's attempting to provide is directly met with constant hovering and micromanaging through the most basic tasks, and it's overwhelming. There's a point where her mom says, Don't blink, and that's damn right. Ella immediately fucking blinks. And you know, obviously that's relatable. It feels like when you're trying to get down to the precision of, and it's an exaggeration through the context of stop motion animation, but you're getting down to the specifics of I'm going to micromanage or give you a specific set of instructions to achieve the most basic things you already know. Remember, this is Ella's profession. It's not like she is a complete novice to this and is just being the hands. But her mother only sees her as hands because she doesn't value her own experience, because she doesn't value the woman that she's raised. And that's where it's tough, right? It's Ella saying that she likes this filmmaking, she says she's good at it, and she feels like she's bringing something to life. But maybe what she's bringing to life is everyone else's vision except her own. It's clear right all throughout this movie, her creativity is stunted by her grief. And she's been grieving her mother long before this movie ever started. This is someone who is well into this routine, they've already been in this cycle. This is someone at the end of being able to take all of this. And when you see how that impacts and shapes her art or her dynamic, the fact that people even seem surprised to see her going out because her entire existence is caring for her mother. Fuck, man. That's like the best part of this movie, is just how full featured this dynamic feels.

SPEAKER_02 1:03:00

It's weird to me that we have that transition to the Ashman who is this overwhelming force, and she gives into it at the very end. She just completely gets enveloped by her own trauma. There's probably something very real about it, but at the same time, I wish there was like an uh an another side that she pushes through to. And I think that's what when I'm talking about subverting expectations, that's the disappointing part. Yeah. Is it's like that's what we want. Sometimes just give people what they want and they'll still feel good about the rest of the film because you can still have I wouldn't say a happy ending, but you can still have a more positive ending in a horror film.

SPEAKER_04 1:03:37

Yeah, I mean, it's the very reason we love our final girls, right? We're like people who triumph over all odds and all evils. And not every horror movie needs that, but Jesus, when you have something as thick and dense as this, it'd be sure fucking nice to see someone go through this shit and come out the other side of it, having reclaimed their own sense of identity, and can live to enjoy that life. Yeah. That they're not just going down to the whole expiring and the downfall of that and finding themselves and finding their sense of closure and freedom and literally closing their life.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:10

I mean, I get it, but at the same time, you know, like we have all the final girls and that's great. And then, like, because we have all the final girls, sometimes we need this depressing story where there is no hope. You know what I mean? And and I feel like that's where what makes these types of movies hit in that way. So, like, I'm not mad at this film for the way it ended as far as like the the outcome of everything. I I think if it ended another way, it would have felt too Hollywood.

SPEAKER_03 1:04:39

It would have felt too Hollywood, it would have felt almost like I don't want to say cheap. That might be too harsh, but unrealistic considering that half of the film is this descent and her losing her absolute shit. So I I guess I just wouldn't anticipate a hunky-dory like rainbows and butterflies ending with her losing her absolute mind. You can't have both things.

SPEAKER_02 1:05:06

I think you can. So I I think there's a balance to it. The ending that is bleak, I think belongs to films that are more absurd or where it's okay to end that way like zombie movies. When you end a zombie movie with the idea of hope, and then everybody ends up getting caught in the very end, it's good. It's a good good little balance because it's a zombie movie. When you end a movie like Smile or this movie with a really bleak, depressing ending, it's like, well, what was the point? Honestly, she would have been better off, you know. Well, she would have been more alive, let's say. And so would those other two people. What I think what you need is a situation in which Tom and Polly look more like assholes. I think that's that's the kind of ending that I want is proving them to be jerks and to not be supportive. And yeah, we get a little bit, but then she murders them. So obviously they're not. That much of jerks and assholes.

SPEAKER_03 1:06:02

I don't know. Maybe I'm just super team Ella in that way because I thought that they were abysmal from start to finish, especially Polly. I knew the kind of girl that she was from the jump with that little conversation in the beginning, trying to make light of, like, ooh, she's out of the cave. You know my situation, ma'am. I'm sure you know what I have going on in my house out of the cave. What? Ugh. And the boyfriend? Don't even get me started. It's just I didn't enjoy them very much. But fine. I guess they could have been worse.

SPEAKER_02 1:06:34

So we're supposed to dislike them because they're disturbed by someone's disturbing behavior.

SPEAKER_03 1:06:39

They were disturbed and didn't give a fuck about her from the jump before she started to lose her mind.

SPEAKER_02 1:06:47

So and I think that's why you get to a point where she can herself work past this junk and realize that. And I think when it comes to like character development, that's where they missed out is the fact that there was none. There was no point at which she realized, you know what, they're really not supportive, and I don't need them in my life because of that. I can push past and I can develop my own sense of agency without my mother, despite the way that she treated me, despite the way that these jerk offs in my life have treated me. And maybe, maybe it's just a sense of burnout, but you know, I feel like American Psycho had kind of a similar ending, right? Where it's just a spiral into insanity. Um, but American psycho was comedy. And so it you're allowed to have an ending that works that way because you have that balance. Now, that's not to say that the ending of Seinfeld was good. It was not, just in case anyone else likes Seinfeld. But no, I think Chris and I might be together here in that. You can you can give us a punch to the gut and you can make us feel the deepest, darkest, horrible things here, but there's gotta be some sort of like way to recover at the end. There's gotta be some sort of redemption to it all and and making it worth it all for us because you want us to put ourselves in the shoes of the main character. In reality, here by the end of this movie, Ella's the antagonist. Right. And not the protagonist. And again, why? You know what I mean? Because now I'm empathizing with the people that you don't want me to empathize with.

SPEAKER_01 1:08:13

I think you can still empathize with Ella. I think that the true antagonist of this movie is just her trauma.

SPEAKER_03 1:08:21

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:08:21

That's the true antagonist, is her is her trauma and how it's resurfacing. And the Ash Man could very well just be her a representation of her inner trauma coming to the surface and getting the best of her. Like there's a lot, but I don't know. I think Tom and Polly were just kind of there to to add in some kills, right? Like, I don't think they added like a super significant portion of this movie. They were shithole friends that really weren't very supportive and didn't really care that much from what we could tell, right? And sure they were assholes, and you know, to an extent, fuck them. They got what they deserved. But I think the true antagonist is definitely the trauma in this movie. I I think, yes, we can put it on the mom, but I do think it's like whatever Elle is going through. So I think it's weird that we have a main character, and the whole movie is centered around a main character who is both the antagonist and the protagonist in her own right.

SPEAKER_03 1:09:18

Yeah, especially using the little girl as a vehicle. I'd agree. And I think maybe the only reason that I am providing so much pushback is because I just think of this idea of mercy and like being merciful towards someone who has suffered so much trauma and as a result ends up doing very heinous and absurd and illegal, immoral, the list goes on things. That despite the fact that they don't get this hopeful ending and get to live out this life, I still have this. I don't know. I I guess I just want to be merciful and plead her case to some extent and giving her some liver of grace. I'm not trying to say that what she did was right, because obviously not, despite how despicable they were. I just I feel terrible. And it is a shame that this is how this goes out for her. And that could be why I interpreted the ending the way that I did specifically, because I wanted to provide so much grace and so much love to her, despite her madness that she went into. So there's a lot of mercy that I have to give here, but I do want to say that the only thing I cannot give mercy to is a couple of editing things that it really pissed me off just a bit. That was dramatic. I don't know about pissed me off, but it irked me the fuck off for sure. So that has to be the worst part of the film for me personally. It was two moments, funny enough, involving Tom. It was so weird when they go from making out for like two seconds to then them sleeping together. It was just so bizarre. You know, they're having a good time, and then quick cut into them making out. That's it. I don't even think they actually say anything. And if they do, it's like two words, just them making out. And then they wake up the next night. What? Their boyfriend and girlfriend, just cut to the fucking. I don't need to see them kissing and then whatever. You know, it was just really weird. It seemed off. It was a weird cut. But then later on, they do it again when she says that she wants to shower, just randomly in his house and says, I want to shower. Next thing you know, she's showering. There couldn't have been a moment where she just walks into the house or I don't, it was just so odd because you could tell that they just needed something to explain that she's changed locations. I don't know. It just felt like such short scenes that I was like, there has to be a better way to transition this, right? Like it just felt so awkward. And they both involved this awkward ass boyfriend of hers.

SPEAKER_02 1:11:52

Well, you know, before we all have to say the best part of this movie, I do want to throw out another worst part, just as a bonus round here, and that is the mishandling of steak in this film. These people are just walking around their house with steak in their hands or on a weird tray, the plastic's already been removed, that puppy is unsealed and gray. It does not look appealing whatsoever. It looks rubbery when they hold it. And it's very, very gross. And it makes me wonder the people that make this film, are they eating their steak correctly? Or are they eating it like raw, rubbery, gray messes? And I really want to I want to make sure that they're eating steak in a good way. You can have it well, if that's how you like it. Medium and medium rare are better. If you like it well, that's fine, but don't eat it raw and rubbery.

SPEAKER_01 1:12:40

Straight up raw and rubbery.

SPEAKER_02 1:12:42

That's not appealing. And then to tear it apart with your hands and build a just the way like thing out of it.

SPEAKER_01 1:12:47

Trying to bite into it too, just that visual.

SPEAKER_02 1:12:50

Nope, I don't like it.

SPEAKER_01 1:12:51

Nothing good about it.

SPEAKER_02 1:12:52

But I will say, we mentioned it before, the best part of the movie for me was the integration of stop motion with the live action. When we have the two separate, it's interesting, you know, it's cool. Everybody likes stop motion, at least I do. To weave the two together to tell a story, that was really cool.

SPEAKER_01 1:13:07

Yeah, for sure. That is arguably one of the best parts of the movie. And if it's not that, it has to be uh Ashlyn's performance because I think if she didn't have a good performance, this film would have been really terrible.

SPEAKER_04 1:13:24

Yeah, I'll absolutely echo that sentiment. And I I want to specifically point out a moment. And it was the look she gives when a guy talks to her about how it must have been incredible growing up or being raised by her mother, this legendary stop-motion artist. And the absolute hate burning behind her eyes when she hears the phrase must have been. That is already like one of my top most hated phrases that come out of people's mouths in the last few years. Don't tell me what this shit must have been. You have no fucking idea. Don't fucking tell me how cool my own life experiences must have been. You don't know what that's like. Let's not do it. Let's spare you, let's spare me, and let's all just acknowledge that we don't fucking know each other and you don't know the life I've lived. When she just met that with that gaze, and then just kind of like passively smile and fucking iconic. What a great performance. And it is for her and only her and her dynamic with her mother that I will consider rewatching this again. But I swear to you, it has to be years from now, plenty of therapy from now, and I have to be in a wildly different place in my life. At no point anytime fucking soon will I be re-watching this movie.

SPEAKER_01 1:14:43

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:14:44

I actually don't know if I would be down to re-watch this again, also, but it's mostly because how could I go without bringing up the body whore that I've been talking about all fucking episode? And it's the thigh.

SPEAKER_01 1:14:58

Yeah, well, yeah, come on. We've seen some crazy shit.

SPEAKER_03 1:15:01

Nah, that was crazy.

SPEAKER_02 1:15:02

She pulled out a tiny little piece of flesh from a tiny little slit.

SPEAKER_03 1:15:06

Nah, that was crazy. Her screaming.

SPEAKER_02 1:15:08

A little tendon.

SPEAKER_03 1:15:10

The her screaming the way that she did, and the fact that it was not that even big of a cut, pulling that tendon, I think it's because it was so subtle. That's not the right word. Like, I could envision maybe an accidental cut on my thigh, something to that effect, where going that crazy to pull out a tendon off of a realistic cut like that, no way on this planet. I would never do it again. I wanted to scream as I was watching it. I thought about pausing it. I'll be honest, I almost fast forwarded because I couldn't take it anymore. It's like pull the fucking tendon already, or just let this be over. I couldn't take it.

SPEAKER_01 1:15:44

That was the it was nerve-wracking.

SPEAKER_03 1:15:46

It was nerve-wracking.

SPEAKER_04 1:15:54

Oh, but I agree with that too.

SPEAKER_03 1:15:55

That's also nasty as fuck.

SPEAKER_01 1:15:57

Yeah. I mean, I agree. That that definitely is it was a good part of the film for sure. It definitely evokes that reaction of like cringiness, like nerve-wracking, like you can almost feel it kind of thing. But I don't think it was like over-the-top body horror. And either way, I I wish I could say that I'll I would be re-watching this movie. And who knows, never say never, it may come around again. But even despite how much I enjoyed the stop motion of it all, I still think the film bit off more than it could chew. And I think it felt like a lot. And if it's weird for me, odds are it was probably weird for some other people out there, and I just don't think I have it in me right now to watch this one again.

SPEAKER_02 1:16:39

I'm 100% going to pass on any further opportunity to watch this. And it's kind of the same reason as why I don't want to re-watch Night Swim. You know, that movie was like, hey, people who deal with life like this, you're right. You're a huge burden and your family would be better off. And that was like the message I feel like it left you with. And this one's kind of similar where it's like, yeah, the stuff you have to deal with and stuff you've had to deal with, they suck. You're right, you're not worth it. You know, that's really the feeling that it gave when it should have been using the opportunity to kind of help people who align with it to give themselves some mercy and to give themselves some space and allow growth to happen as it happens, right? But instead we just get this like nightmare. And, you know, I know we're making horror here, but you can still use a nightmare to go back into real life and to wake up. And instead, we're just left lingering in the insanity. So no, no thanks to a second time.

SPEAKER_04 1:17:38

Yeah, sometimes horror is at its best when it's the silly goose or the clown who's doing crazy fucking things to people's bodies that you would never actually see, and not the real life horrors that persists surrounding us all day. But hey, that's neither here nor there. Stop Motion from 2023 has earned three hacks and one slash. And while we've certainly had a robust discussion here, the conversation about this movie doesn't end here by any means.

SPEAKER_01 1:18:05

If you want to find out how you can go further than this episode, consider supporting the show by subscribing through Apple Podcasts or visiting patreon.com slash hackerslash where you can enjoy even more of the show, including bonus content with early access, extended episodes with our B-sides, movie nominations, so you can be a part of what we watch next and live shows.

SPEAKER_03 1:18:28

And stop whatever motion you're doing and leave us a five star review wherever you get your podcasts. This helps us continue to deliver great content for all you horror fiends out there.

SPEAKER_04 1:18:36

See you next time, folks, and remember great artists always put themselves into their work.

SPEAKER_01 1:18:41

It's all about balance.