366: The Substance (2024)

SPEAKER_01 0:04

Whitchfinger! Mullen meets AI. Greetings and salutations and welcome to Hacker Slash. If you're joining us again, welcome back! Have you ever dreamt of a better version of yourself? If this is your first time listening, welcome to the party. We are a horror movie review podcast dedicated to telling you whether a movie is a hack.

SPEAKER_05 0:28

A total joke, a waste of time, or a slash.

SPEAKER_01 0:31

Totally killer, pun intended. We believe horror is for everyone, and as such, we're rating these movies with the perspective we've gained from our varying walks of life and the flavors of fear we fancy most. My name is Chris, I'm your friendly neighborhood slasher enthusiast. This week I'm joined by the classic horror connoisseur Sean.

SPEAKER_05 0:47

I got a sack of tools, and I got a big hammer.

SPEAKER_00 0:50

And the paranormal paramour, Binx. Hi everybody, I'm Sue, and it's time to pump it up.

SPEAKER_01 0:57

This week we're checking out a film that's considered by some to be the most divisive or disgusting film of the year.

SPEAKER_05 1:03

And if you're a patron, you'll also get to hear our B-side at the end of this episode where we get into if we would use or abuse the substance ourselves.

SPEAKER_01 1:13

This week's film is the product of five years' worth of development, and it serves as a deeply personal exploration of identity, societal expectations, and the horror of our own bodies. The film invites us to confront uncomfortable truths about the way we perceive ourselves and each other. At its core, it's a story about a transformation both brutally physical and deeply personal. It's about both the battle between who we are and who we wish to be and the extremes we're willing to endure for that imagined ideal. At the end of the day, we're left with a film that re uses visceral body horror to explore the emotional and physical costs of our obsession with youth and perfection. This week we're talking about the substance. Who's seen this one before?

SPEAKER_00 1:56

I have seen this one before. I saw it opening weekend for my friend's birthday. This was his birthday plans, or to go see this movie in theaters, and what an experience that was.

SPEAKER_05 2:07

Yeah, I actually watched this movie a couple of months ago, not right when it came out, but really close to when it came out, and of course I had to watch it again once it came in the lineup for the pod because it's just been the trend lately, I guess. I just watch movies and don't think that we might be reviewing it soon, and then I gotta revisit it. But you know what? We'll see if that was a good or a bad thing.

SPEAKER_01 2:30

That just means you have great taste.

SPEAKER_05 2:32

Right?

SPEAKER_01 2:32

Yeah, I had no plans to watch this until it came up for the podcast because I knew we'd be getting to it at some point with all that we heard about this movie. But let me tell you, Paris saw this movie once it came out, and she's been begging me for what feels like an eternity to watch it. And I'm very devastated that she couldn't be here with us tonight. She has so much to say about this film. But I will admit, having saved this experience and hearing how Paris felt about it, I was expecting this to be another neon demon. When Paris loves a movie, very rarely do I also love that movie. So we have a movie about beauty standards, and I thought, okay, well, I don't know. I might be out on this one.

SPEAKER_00 3:17

I feel like the trailer was giving extremely arthouse, cerebral or grotesque. I certainly did not expect it to be packaged as a satire. That's something that as it was getting closer to premiere, I was hearing about that it was a very satirical, a play on beauty standards and such and such. So I got a little bit more of what the plot actually was, but initially I had just seen the movie posters, kind of like around festival season, and I thought, oh, this is gonna be one of those like really art just visually appealing, but very bizarre films. And I don't know if that necessarily changed as I actually watched the movie.

SPEAKER_05 3:55

I think it's really interesting to think of how you could experience this movie having known even just a little bit about it and having known nothing about it, right? Somehow I feel like I went into this with no expectations because I remember hearing buzz about this movie, but I'm sure the trailer must have popped up at some point, but I don't remember paying attention to the trailer. I don't remember watching the trailer at all. And I feel like I went into this one completely blind, just not really knowing much about it. And I think for me, I can't imagine a different way going into the movie for the first time because it was such an impact.

SPEAKER_01 4:33

An impact is such a specific way to put that, and I think I can really think of no better way to describe this movie. This feels, and we'll talk again about originality later on, but this feels like a mix of very three very specific movies for me. But let me tell you, body horror is just not my thing. It's not something that I ever feel super compelled by. We watched The Fly, that was super fucking gross. There's a very fine line about what I can take and what I can give and what I have a fun time with. I fucking squirmed in this movie. I can't remember the last time I had a physical reaction to something that wasn't something just wanting to make me gag because they were also gagging on screen. But this scent chills down my spine.

SPEAKER_05 5:19

Oh my gosh, yeah, for sure. There's a lot of moments that just make you get that cringy, like, ooh, what's going on? You know what I mean? That's the body horror of it all for sure. You said it. The Cronenberg, you mentioned the fly, it has it written all over it. We were just sitting down discussing the body horror in stop motion, but I'm telling you, the body horror in the substance really feels like body horror. But this movie also has a lot of sci-fi feel to it as well. There's some really layered like elements to this film. You've got the body horror, you've got sci-fi, you've got a little bit of almost like comedic layering in there as well. Very dark, very dark, but it has a lot of different feels.

SPEAKER_01 6:00

For sure. Two quick notes of follow-up there. This just jumped in my brain as soon as you had the comparison of stop motion. This feels as though if this film were the finest chicken dish, the fanciest chicken dish you could imagine, the body horror in stop motion would be like a dino chicken nugget. Still good.

SPEAKER_05 6:19

Still good.

SPEAKER_01 6:20

But nothing in comparison, right? Like nothing in comparison.

SPEAKER_05 6:23

Slaps late at night, you know?

SPEAKER_00 6:26

Yeah. Stop motion is like the kids' meal, it's like the children's meal of whatever the adult meal would be. In this case, the substance. And I can agree with that because I thought the gore in stop motion was really gross. But this is something else entirely. The other thing is that this film also takes this whole seven days, like the ring, to a whole new meaning. Like I think of seven days and it's like a resurgence now. It's not just the ring anymore. I'm also thinking of the substance.

SPEAKER_01 6:51

I love that. I mean, I hate the seven days trope. I am over a fucking supernatural film where some bitch has to fucking solve a mystery in seven days is an expiration date. This is a recurring task. I can get into that. We love routine. The Capricorn in me is so satisfied.

SPEAKER_00 7:07

Absolutely. And to that point, our main character is a Taurus. So, quite frankly, she also loves a routine and could explain a lot of the things that she did and the decisions that she made. That's aside.

SPEAKER_05 7:17

Thank you. We got that. Now we know. Very good.

SPEAKER_01 7:20

I was dying to know if you had calculated her birthday based on the New Year's of it all at some point in the film.

SPEAKER_00 7:28

There's a particular scene, and I paid special attention that time around because I'm a loser. Anyways, when I was watching this film the second time around, I was so excited. And here's why. That theater experience that I was talking about was absolutely abysmal. It was terrible. People in the theater were obnoxiously laughing.

SPEAKER_03 7:48

Oh, wow.

SPEAKER_00 7:49

And it was extremely distracting. My own friends, being a few of them, and I don't care, I'll call them out right now because I know it. I was just not able to really allow myself to enjoy the film and really feel it for what it was that first watch. So the second time around, I was really looking forward to it. And I think what I was really looking forward to analyzing was the satirical part of it all, right? Like the idea that this director, apparently a lot of her other work is very blunt in nature. And this is a method for her to talk about something pretty serious and dark, but make it funny. But I never expected it to be slapstick funny, and I never laughed the way that everyone else in that theater was laughing. I didn't find it as funny. I thought the commentary was extremely rough. The gore was so intense. I definitely felt nauseous. So when I was watching it again by myself, I was able to actually feel those things. And it proved to me that this is the kind of film that you actually do want to see at home streaming, unfortunately, because some people just may not get it the way that you're probably going to receive it. Maybe. Or maybe you'll also just find it just as funny as every everyone else. But I feel like it just gets under your skin when you can experience it alone.

SPEAKER_01 9:04

Something that you said there makes me think of when we went to go see Possession.

SPEAKER_00 9:09

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 9:09

And you had a bunch of Chuckle Fox laughing at everything, whereas you felt that movie very seriously, very deeply. Was it a similar experience for you?

SPEAKER_00 9:16

For sure. But the difference between this film and Possession is that possession is not and never was meant to be a comedy, a satire. Like that was never the director's intention. That's not a genre. In this case, it is a satire, and it's been marketed and said as such. But the way that she introduces satire and comedy is very subtle in the first half of the film. But that particularly in the ending is where I think it really just goes balls to the wall. And we'll get into it later, but goes balls to the wall, and that's where people were losing their absolute minds laughing like crazy when there was some real fucked up things actually happening, and it gets way too muddy. And then it's like, oh, now you're really just losing the whole point of the film. And that's a criticism not just on the audience, but the audience feels that way for a reason, and that's on the writing and the director, right?

SPEAKER_03 10:11

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 10:12

So it's a little bit of a criticism on them, more so than the actual audience.

SPEAKER_01 10:16

Yeah, I mean, listen, that ending is absolutely absurd. It has almost but not quite malignant level camp at some moments in this movie. And that's something that I can appreciate to a certain extent, but one of the things that really surprised me was how I was able to stick around with this film in spite of its runtime. Because I do feel like its runtime was a bit of a disappointment. It got to the point, I was watching this with Allie, and there was a moment where we both kind of acknowledged, like, okay, we get it. And this movie lingers in some moments where yes, it makes sense to linger. It's building up and it's making you as invested and unhinged as some of these characters are. But I remember it distinctly in the beginning of the movie, I could see why it had such a long runtime. While it was lingering and it felt good in the beginning, I had this nagging feeling that I would get to the end of the movie and be like, okay, but a little bit of time was wasted. And I feel like we could have just moved things along a little bit sooner.

SPEAKER_05 11:15

Yeah, no, I feel you there for sure. And I think we're gonna get back to that point a number of times throughout this episode, but I do think just going back to your theater experience, because it has me thinking, I did not have the same experience in theater watching it. I feel like obviously I don't really have a busy theater most of the time, so maybe that was like lucky, so it's a little bit more intimate when watching the films, unless it's maybe a really huge movie. But I can definitely see how if you have the certain crowd in there that's just maybe even just a like a younger demographic that's just making fun of everything, maybe you're a bunch of teenagers, and you know there's nothing wrong with being teenagers. I was a teenager, I probably laughed at some dumb shit too. But all of this movie for me was a surprise purely based on really just not knowing absolutely anything about it going into it. And I think if you do go into this movie blind in that way, I think you're gonna be surprised. I think there's a lot of things to be surprised about, and it's not just what they show you, like physically, right? You've got great practical effects and all this dumb stuff, but you have the acting and the story and the cinematography as well as the effects. And wow. Also the nudity. I think the nudity in this movie is extremely surprising, right? There's a lot of full frontal nudity in this movie, and I wasn't actually prepared for that, but it's also surprising how they tie in all these great callbacks and references and familiar metaphors or representations that date back all the way to 1930s horror. So there's a lot of really great stuff, and there's a lot to be surprised about with this movie.

SPEAKER_00 12:53

Yeah, I would say a lot of this film is intended to make you gasp and make you feel like, oh shit, this is actually something I'm seeing on the big screen or in my TV in my room, you know, like it's intense for sure. For me, the biggest disappointment of the film, especially in the second watch, is it's kind of like the surrealism of it. And I enjoy that the film obviously adds this element of sci-fi. We just mentioned the fly, right, and all that. So I like that part. There's just a small bit of it that crosses over the edge that then leads these people to lose their mind laughing. And I identified it definitely in the ending. There's a couple moments there where you have to really suspend your belief in the ability of certain characters being able to pull off the things that they do or have the skill set to be able to do certain things that they do, et cetera, et cetera. And it's just like when you see that unfold, you're laughing because you just can't believe that that's actually happening. But it's so big and like the major focal point of the film that it becomes so loud, it really shushes the whole point of this film. What's supposed to be like this feminist piece ends up getting forgotten, and all you're gonna remember is all of this like mega dramatic surrealism moments. And so I think that's the part that I wish had just been muted just a smidge and kept even keel throughout the film because there's some of it in the beginning, but I'm talking again, balls to the wall at the end, that is just way too ridiculous, and then you kind of just forget what it is that you're watching. Everyone's gonna remember the ending, and no one's gonna remember the rest of the film.

SPEAKER_01 14:35

Okay. I I see what you're saying. The surrealism is intense, and I think it almost begs the question of how real does this movie feel? Granted, there's a lot in here that's exaggerated, but I remember obviously watching this even earlier today with Ali, there was a question of like, is this gonna be one of those movies where everything's a dream? Because sometimes it just goes so far over the top, it's like, okay, where are we at? What's our elevation right now? But I don't necessarily agree that you wouldn't remember the rest of the film because yes, that ending is intense and it's insane. Balls to the wall is a great way to describe it. There is so much emotion packed into this movie, and yes, it's a very serious message, it's a very serious movie, but it's also a little silly throughout a lot of it. And this is one of those things where you look at even the quality of Demi Moore's performance and you think about what this woman is going through throughout this entire film. It starts with a very big high, and then we plummet to new lows, unimaginable lows in someone's psyche. And what I find really interesting there is that while this movie is so disgusting and so cringy, again, this made me feel my spine. It wasn't scary, but it's because of the satire, it's because of the little silly goose nature, it's because it's more disgusting than anything. But the fear that I think it could evoke is the fear of losing touch with your own reality and resenting the person you've become and not appreciating who you've become in spite of the life you've lived. It's intense.

SPEAKER_00 16:13

I would actually say digging a little bit deeper to that, I I would say like the other part to it is just fearing what society is capable of doing in terms of dictating how you view yourself and your perspective of your beauty and your worth, especially in the eyes of entertainment and beauty standards and all of that. Like that's a big part of this. And I keep going back to this feminist piece because it really is specifically talking about women and how they're viewed, especially in famous positions. But I think we all can feel this way to an extent. There's definitely a couple of scenes here that everyone can relate to, especially if you're a woman and whatnot. But what's really scary is how on the nose it is about those beauty standards and how aging feels and losing touch of not only of who you are, but how you are perceived just because you are getting older. The body horror for sure is insanely squeamish and disgusting. The relationship with food is also insane. Some of the gore here and some of the parts that are really, really disgusting. Well, I guess it's not gore, but what makes this movie really, really disgusting is actually what they do with food. It's not even actual body stuff. It's what they do with food that again is so great because food is intended to nourish the body, right? I thought that was really creative, but goddamn, there are some items of food here that I'm probably not gonna eat for a bit.

SPEAKER_05 17:39

Oh man. That's what I was gonna say. I think the true horror in this movie is the way food is consumed because man, it was truly a horrifying visual to behold. It gets really nasty. But you both hit it right in the nose. This movie is really depicting the horror of how women are treated in the media and especially in Hollywood, and I think that it is satirical, but there's a lot of truth in what's being said here. So it's kind of like there's always a truth in some form of joke that you tell, right? And this movie is telling a lot of truths, and it's kind of grim and it's kind of sad.

SPEAKER_01 18:11

I gotta say, and this is one little thing that has brought me so much joy throughout the movie, it's also telling the truths of having a great customer service line. Because holy shit, some of the commentary in this movie that said back to this customer who has purchased some substance. Like, damn, you know, if only it were that easy to make people get it.

SPEAKER_00 18:32

I've never been in a retail role before, like working in retail and whatnot. I've worked in some adjacent customer service roles, but man, those responses for sure were spot on, and I've got mad respect for anyone that has to handle those kinds of complaints.

SPEAKER_01 18:49

For sure. And I mentioned earlier that this movie reminds me of three distinct movies, and there's so much more that it should remind you about. This is just what came to me. The fly is a very big obvious one. Said that already. Yeah. Neon Demon. Again, there's a level of that expectation that's there. And actually, Binks, when you were talking about the standards and the way that society views you as you age, it reminded me of Ty West's entire trilogy of Pearl to X to Maxine. But aside from that, Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde. For sure.

SPEAKER_05 19:25

Yeah, it definitely has that. It also has like I feel like this keeps getting brought up in a lot of movies lately, but it also has some shining in it. It has a little bit of that in it, right? It's got Frankenstein is in there. There's a lot that this movie is pulling from, some heavier than others, but it's super, super good, and it's really done in this really tasteful and very well-done way. And I think it allows the movie to feel original because of how it incorporates these kind of themes and styles into the film.

SPEAKER_00 19:57

This film reminds me of the first omen in the sense that the director intentionally wanted to pay homage to a serious amount of films. This is spoiler-free, so we don't want to get too into a lot of them. And please don't Google it. But when you're done with this movie, you're gonna feel like, damn, that was from this, right? That reminded me of this. Go Google how many movies this film paid homage to or Easter egg, and you're gonna be surprised. I'll mention two of them because it's not that big of a deal. You just said The Shining. That's definitely one. 2001 Space Odyssey, if you can believe it, twice, actually. That was crazy and a choice. The biggest one for me, and I said it the moment that the end credits started, is Death Becomes Her. This film is Death Becomes Her, except just way more gross. And it's fitting that we're doing it right now because the premiere of the Broadway show just aired. Can you tell I just saw Wicked? And I'm in my musical theater mode, maybe a little bit.

SPEAKER_01 20:54

But she fucking clowns me for my love of musicals and Grease Rise of the Pink Ladies and Glee. You know what?

SPEAKER_00 20:59

It's not a new year yet, but it's about to be. So I can't even say new year new me. But this movie for sure is Death Becomes Her. It revolves around the importance of the youthful appearance of women and involves comedy a bit and body horror, of course. It's almost identical in that sense, but just that the substance takes it to a much higher extreme.

SPEAKER_01 21:22

It does take it to a higher extreme, not unlike that ending. Obviously, being you've mentioned already at length how fucking absurd this thing is. But let me tell you, I have mixed feelings. Was it hilarious? Yeah. Was it also devastatingly sad? Also, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 21:39

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 21:39

I am so torn on this ending. A, because it hits a point of absurdity that I think it can't really walk its way back from. But B, it's just like, damn, what a lasting impression to leave you with.

SPEAKER_05 21:53

It's a lot. I mean, really, talk about a love hate relationship because yeah, because I love a lot. About this ending, but I hate how long and drawn out this ending is. You know what I mean? Like some of my favorite moments come from this ending, but I also felt like it was absurd, not for what was give being shown necessarily. I can get into that, but for how it found a way to keep on going. And I think that there is maybe something to be said. Can we edit some of it down while still landing the same points and ending on the same message? And I don't know. It's not even how, like just saying that, it's not even how it ends, really. Just trim some pieces out of the ending and keep the same message land at the same point, and I think it's perfect. Do you know what I mean? The ending just feels like it needed to do something to bring this movie under two hours.

SPEAKER_00 22:44

Well, it's definitely one of those moments where you just don't expect it to continue going when you had imagined it to end would have been solid, and you still get that satire and you still get that right amount of comedy, but also driving the point home and really feeling sad and just a little bit disgusted with the situation at hand, maybe even with yourself, you know. But then it just goes over the edge in a way that just feels like okay, I feel like I'm watching a whole other movie altogether.

SPEAKER_04 23:16

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 23:16

Because I agree with you guys. Yes, at first I actually didn't even entirely hate the ending. I thought it to be a little bit funny, but definitely really fucking sad. But when I watched it by myself, I thought that the sadness of it was gonna hit even further. But the opposite happened. I felt just really depressed throughout that first half of the film. I I felt way more emotional that first half of the film and just kind of felt cold and disinterested at the second half when I watched it by myself. So I feel like it's just not entirely effective. And what I struggle with is that it's not even that the people were laughing in the theater and killing the vibe. It's also how people are online and how they are receiving this film too. They think it's fucking hilarious and that it's super campy and like hilarious and it's only because it's the ending. Right. And that's why I'm like a little bit bitter because that's what I meant by everyone's just gonna remember this ending and associate the ending with this film and forget the whole fucking point of the movie.

SPEAKER_05 24:17

I get that for sure. There are a lot of things I think people, to Chris's point, will remember from this movie, but the lasting impact, the image that's gonna come to your mind when they bring up the substance is gonna be some form of this monstro ending.

SPEAKER_01 24:35

I mean, wasn't that the case for the fly though? This feels no different in that regard.

SPEAKER_05 24:40

It's possible.

SPEAKER_01 24:41

Now, granted, the fly is not campy at all, that's just fucking gross and serious, but I don't know. For as campy as I found this movie to be, I still didn't feel like it undercut how serious it is. It feels like those two things are part of the same sentence. And I think if you just try to focus on one versus the other, then I think you're missing the entirety of the experience.

SPEAKER_05 25:02

For sure.

SPEAKER_00 25:03

I feel like the pacing and the way that the fly was written just doesn't allow any moment for you to disengage and find it fucking hilarious. There's no point in the fly in which I was laughing my ass off at what happened at that ending, not to spoil it for anyone who hasn't seen the fly either, right? But the pacing of that film in particular is done so well where it's so outlandish, but you still feel very emotional. In this one, it's like because it's so drawn out and you thought the movie was already gonna end, you already lost me. I have to go back in there, and then I'm like, what the fuck's going on now? That's my problem. And I think that's where people also, to their point and their defense, is why they're just losing their shit laughing. Aside from the obviously what happens.

SPEAKER_01 25:45

Well, losing your shit laughing aside, I think it's time for us to go ahead and start making our way towards our ratings. But before we get there, Sean, how would you describe the core score?

SPEAKER_05 25:54

Well, I said it earlier. It's the body horror of it all. You're gonna see some grotesque and decrepit scenes of nudity with some nude shots that might give Barbarian a run for its money, for sure. I think you're also going to get all of the backstitching, tooth pulling, fingernail ripping, blood gushing fun that's guaranteed to satisfy you. I mean, 36,000 gallons of fake blood to be exact, earning this a substantially high gore score.

SPEAKER_01 26:26

Now, what about the animal report?

SPEAKER_00 26:27

The substance is only intended for humans, so this film was safe.

SPEAKER_01 26:31

Let's go ahead and get into our ratings in the substance from 2024. Was it a hack or a slash?

SPEAKER_05 26:37

I'll go ahead and kick it off because fairly quick. I think this movie for me really came out of left field. I gotta say that I was not prepared for this movie from the acting to the cinematography. Almost every scene is superb in this movie. Demi Moore gives one of her best performances ever. I feel like the way this movie is able to take this whole respect the balance theme and have it represent this allegory for telling women what they should or shouldn't do with their bodies, it's just, man, it's super intense. And it also gives you these horrifying practical effects that give you this Cronenberg's The Fly feel that we've been talking about, or even Frankenstein. There's a lot that this movie is really giving, and it's a very heavy movie, but it sprinkles in just enough comedic relief to alleviate that heavy feeling, and it's not a comedy, but it has its moments. At least that's my opinion and how I view this film. But overall, this movie is full of callbacks or nods to some of horror's greatest films while not shying away from delivering one of the most impactful messages of the year, in my opinion. And you know, I'm not one for substance abuse, but this one's a slash.

SPEAKER_00 27:49

Yeah, something about this film really did it for me the first time around, even despite my shitty theater experience. And this second time, it really emphasized the parts of the film that I enjoyed and further unsettled me the parts that people thought were just comedic and was written off as such, right? And although the premise is extremely on the nose, something about its obscene and dramatic nature really felt disturbingly effective for me. It feels almost a bit sick to make a film about the plight of women's beauty standards in the eyes of our patriarchal society as a quote-unquote satire and comedy. And initially I felt like it was well balanced for a majority of the film. It's just that that ending, and I keep talking about it, but it really was that ending that just takes it to another level, that unfortunately ruins the whole point to a lot of people, not necessarily me, but I feel like it just really wrote off a portion of the people that saw this film that really needed to understand what this film was saying. And it was just giving mega shock factor and it overshadows that message. And I enjoyed it and it's entertaining. I just don't know if it entirely fits in the grand scheme of this film. But I'm definitely giving this a slash because its substance is good. And without admitting that I had a grand old time two times in a row would be alive. I I think it was a great film. I think it was something that a lot of people need to hear, especially now more than ever, which is ironic. And although it's got its flaws, I think the sum of its parts says you've gotta watch it. So for sure, slash.

SPEAKER_01 29:26

Yeah. See, this is a movie about pushing boundaries. And even this movie, I think, pushes boundaries with a very high level of precision, and it's made completely with skill, and it's crafted with a lot of heart in its message. You know, we talked about this incredible performance by Demi Moore, but you have a central character who is so sympathetic and at times infuriating, but you don't stop respecting her all throughout the film, and I think that's a very fine line to walk. Listen, a lot of the shit is absurd, a lot of it is crazy. This movie is simultaneously horrific while being in some moments hilarious enough to the tension without undermining the entire point or the whole message of the movie. And again, that is a tight rope to walk. This movie is longer than it needs to be. And there's a lot of it that I think I would like to see trimmed down a bit to be more effective or more palatable for me. But for this to be a body horror movie that I can actually get into, hot damn, that's a slash. And with that, the Substance from 2024 has a universal slash. Now you can find this movie available online. Check the links in our show notes to see where you can find it right now. And when we return from our break, we'll dive deep into that body horror and unpack a little bit more of that message. We'll see you in a bit.

SPEAKER_05 30:55

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SPEAKER_01 32:24

Welcome back, folks. You're now entering the spoiler zone for the substance from 2024, which has earned a universal slash. Now we have a lot to unpack here, but before we get into the specifics of our ratings, let's go through those kills.

SPEAKER_05 32:38

Yeah, let me break this down right here, because one way or another, we have four deaths in this movie in a way, right? And the crazy part is that in some way, shape, or form, it's also all the same person. So whether it's Elizabeth herself, her younger version, Monstro, or all of them combined again, they are all derived from Elizabeth through this substance. Let's get into it because I just gotta know which version of Elizabeth's kill pumped you up.

SPEAKER_00 33:10

I have to say that it's a tough call. But Elizabeth's death, like being beaten to death by Sue, hit different this second time around because god damn, that's a lot of blood, and you really feel it when she's frickin' going to town on her face.

SPEAKER_01 33:29

Listen, I was expecting Art the Clown to pop out and just dance around in the blood.

SPEAKER_00 33:35

It was just so much. A little bit before it, when she's smashing her face into the mirror, I was like, Jesus, that's gross as hell. But after the fact, she loses her damn mind. Now, obviously, we don't have many options, but I did want to mention that I hadn't seen the beginning part of this film. So I didn't see this whole bit of the walk of fame in the star.

SPEAKER_05 33:59

Oh, yeah. See, you missed yeah, the first time around you missed some big stuff.

SPEAKER_00 34:02

Right. So since I missed that, when I did see the kill, you know, like the melting into the Walk of Fame star, I didn't hit as much as it did the second time around when I was like, oh, that's a call back to the beginning of the movie.

SPEAKER_01 34:13

Oh damn. See, that's actually my favorite kill.

SPEAKER_00 34:16

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 34:17

And it's it's the saddest one for sure. She's so tickled by herself, she's so pleased with living back in this last little moment of feeling loved and beloved. But when you pair that and reflect it back to the beginning of the movie, when you see how sad the fading is from when the star was being formed all the way up to the heights of her career, and then down to the point where people are dropping food on her and no one fucking remembers who she is.

SPEAKER_03 34:43

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 34:43

And it's just such a fucking bummer. To see her cling to that, to feel that warmth again. Super sad.

SPEAKER_05 34:52

It's just so crazy, and I agree, it's one of the better kills in the movie. Absolutely loved how you know Monstro Elysisu is how we're like pronouncing this, represented all of these versions combined together in that horrific and monstrous way. It felt very Frankenstein's monster in a way, and just the way that it just ran right to Elizabeth's star on the Hollywood Walk of Fame and melted away there, leaving us with that fucking amazing shot of what's left of Elizabeth's face over the star is just so great. And you know, tying it back to the very beginning of the film, just like you're saying, Chris, right? It's just man, it like comes full circle for real. You know what I mean? And I don't know, it's really just a really cool kill. But I will say the kill with Elizabeth and Sue Binks, you were talking about like the fight scene there. Give me all of the face smashing into the glass because I'm here for it. Give me that bloody, like gnarly fighting, beating someone to death. I'm here for that. As soon as you start throwing mortal combat fucking pump kicks where you're flying 20 feet across the room, it's so absurd that it almost takes me out of the movie a little bit too much.

SPEAKER_00 36:08

Finisher. That was it. That was when things really took a landslide to the bottom. And when people in the theater were losing their mind laughing, and my friend and I were like, fuck, what is happening? For him specifically, he just will not give this film its flowers for that. Rightfully so, because it gets a little too ridiculous. All of a sudden, they're like superhero skills and just kicking each other from across the room, especially Elizabeth being clearly decrepit. You know, she couldn't even walk initially. She slowly gets her footing again and is able to walk, but there's like moments leading up to this fight that just make it a little curious as to how they're actually battling it out with one another. There was no need to implement such ridiculous and absurdities and dramaticism to that fight when it was already absurd with the way that she looked.

SPEAKER_01 37:01

I don't know. I I loved it. I thought it was hilarious and just like the police station scene in Malignant. Okay. That's okay. I could laugh at that. But this was one of those moments again, and there were several moments throughout the whole movie where Allie looked at me, she's like, I bet this is a fever dream. And it's giving like it's so ridiculous that it can't be real.

SPEAKER_00 37:20

But I think what kind of sucks a little bit is that the police scene in Malignant is ridiculous and funny and a good time, but not because she's battling it out with herself in a sense, right? She's just already her twin.

SPEAKER_04 37:33

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 37:34

In this case, we're talking about you fighting yourself and trying to kill yourself. Right. That's where it's like, should I actually be laughing this much when it's like really fucking sad what's happening here? Yeah. Especially after she just revived her, like she tried to kill herself, revived her when she realized that she actually cannot be famous without her, and then is received with, oh no, you're gonna die. That back and forth was really just unsettling, but then it just kind of gets killed with uh mortal for sure.

SPEAKER_05 38:05

Yeah, it's a little bit much for sure, but it is an interesting concept to think about. What if after this accident, everything we see is just like some kind of made-up fever dream in a coma? Not to say that anyone's validating that, but what a crazy thought that that would be. Absolutely.

SPEAKER_01 38:23

Because the other kill here that feels very fever dream-ish is when you get the monstro whose head is beaten in with the crowbar, and then all of a sudden it regenerates and you're spraying blood literally everywhere.

SPEAKER_05 38:37

Everywhere.

SPEAKER_01 38:38

Of the lawnmower scene in dead alive.

SPEAKER_05 38:41

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 38:42

When the movie ended, everyone looked at me like, what the fuck was that? Why was there so much blood? And I was like, guys, it's dead alive. Look it up. Peter Jackson, dead alive.

SPEAKER_05 38:52

36,000 gallons of fake blood for that scene. I mean, absolutely intense. But see, that's kind of my comparison is that I'm here for the absurdity. I'm here for like the over the top, I'm here for the campiness to an extent. And I think that death, the crowbar, exploding the head, the regeneration, the whole like spraying blood everywhere, and then you know, even just like exploding and melting away on the star, you know what I mean? I think all of that is just really crazy, but all of that felt fine for me. It was like the out-of-place fighting that felt like it didn't belong in the movie that took me out of the movie, whereas this other stuff at the end didn't take me out of the movie. I think that there's ways to edit that down by 20 minutes, but the visuals of all of that did not take me out of the movie, and it was just a really cool visual to get as over the top as it is, and I think it's also really cool that the only use of CGI in this movie is just to put Elizabeth's face on the back of Monstro Elysisu because everything else was practical effects, and man, that's exactly what I love about this fucking movie. Because if you didn't guess already, and I'm sure the listeners, at least the listeners have been with us for a while now, probably know that I'm gonna talk about the practical effects because the fucking practical effects in this movie are absolutely insane. The grotesqueries of the effects used to make Monstro Elysisu was top fucking notch. It took like six to nine hours to get the prosthetics done on Demi Moore for these scenes. Elizabeth's face on the back, the fucking teeth out of the chest, one of the best monsters I've seen in a long, long time.

SPEAKER_00 40:39

Yeah, that was insanely impressive. And as much as that ending and monstrous portion of the film is not necessarily my favorite, especially in the second time around, that has to go down in history books for some of like the best work in the last 10 years because the look of that thing was insane. Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 41:04

Can we also talk about how we literally witnessed this monster cough up a fucking titty? A whole titty, a whole ass titty.

SPEAKER_00 41:12

I remember vaguely, God, I I might be a little telling this a little bit wrong, but I remember that the director was in an interview where she talked about what was a way to really continue that shock factor, and it was like the coughing up of the tit to further emphasize like what parts of women's bodies are like hyperfixated on. There is so much ass in this film. You mentioned it the in the spoiler-free section. Well, you said full frontal, which also is a lot.

SPEAKER_03 41:40

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 41:40

There's a lot of shots that are specific to assness because it's a part of the body that is very sexualized, especially in film and on women specifically. So I it's like a lot. But she was like, I guess it was something along the lines of being like, No, but a tit coming out would be like insane. And so she went for it.

SPEAKER_01 42:01

You know, that reminds me of it's Jennifer's body. She gets stabbed.

SPEAKER_00 42:05

She's like, My tit. Yes. Speaking of while we're at it in terms of the practical effects, those were not Margaret Qually's tits.

SPEAKER_05 42:12

Yeah, yeah. The prosthetics, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 42:13

The prosthetics, even on her for those tits were insane because initially I thought they were, and I was like, girl, goddamn, what? I was like, that's insane. Jack Ansinoff is thriving. That's her husband, by the way. I was like, he's thriving. They're not real, although she's still beautiful, regardless. I was like, those are kind of that can't be real. There's no way. That's too good. It's insane. I will say there's so much to praise here on the production front. My favorite is this score. Yep. It's easily one of the most outstanding scores of this year. I would say that if you needed like three albums to get you hyped for a night out, or just to feel really good, or just to get ready for the gym, it's going to be the score for challengers, specifically remixed. Fantastic. And then it's the substance. What listening to it again, I was like, God damn it, I need to buy this score immediately. Right the fuck now. I'm going to the stores and I'm getting it ASAP because it just hits.

SPEAKER_05 43:13

Yeah, it's good.

SPEAKER_00 43:13

It's so grunge, it's so neon, it's so, I don't know, dirty, but in a really fun techno way. Love that.

SPEAKER_01 43:21

The music is great. I absolutely adore it. But I have to go hyper specific here. For me, it is the actual branding, packaging, and marketing of the substance.

SPEAKER_05 43:33

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 43:34

A simple black background and a white font.

SPEAKER_05 43:36

Always good.

SPEAKER_01 43:37

It's specifically the packaging, the large print on the number, everything is very simple. Everything's very minimalist. Everything in that box looks like it has a very satisfying texture.

SPEAKER_04 43:48

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 43:49

And that for a movie that fucks with you sensory wise, that was very satisfying to me. And I just I had to really appreciate it. I wanted to touch those bags.

SPEAKER_05 44:00

Well packaged.

SPEAKER_01 44:01

I wanted I wanted to touch the cards.

SPEAKER_05 44:03

Dang.

SPEAKER_01 44:03

My fingertips are just ready for it.

SPEAKER_00 44:05

No, I get you. Because that font is so sharp. Everything about it is so aesthetically pleasing. The marketing for the film is also great. I saw like some PR packages that they sent to some people, and it was just oh, it just really hits.

SPEAKER_05 44:20

It's really, really good. Through your packaging and how you're presenting your product, it's always a good sign for sure. But I also want to highlight the cinematography in this movie, especially those like quick close-up shots that we get throughout the movie and the way they use those fisheye lenses during those close-up shots when they're like really specifically close to character spaces, because it reminded me so much of Requiem for a Dream.

SPEAKER_03 44:47

Yes.

SPEAKER_05 44:48

So much of that movie, because that movie was like an obsession in high school. Like we talked about that movie for months upon months upon months. It was always referenced.

SPEAKER_00 44:58

Yes. The other day I was just playing my vinyl, because I love that score too. Speaking of scores. Yeah. And I was thinking of that also. When I went to see it in theaters, I thought of it, but then I was reminded again and I was like, God damn it, another movie of the million that is referenced here. I love that that one is one of them.

SPEAKER_05 45:15

Yeah, so good.

SPEAKER_01 45:16

Yeah, I w I was just thinking about the first time she takes the substance and she splits. Obviously, very similar to how the egg splits in the very beginning of the movie, completely silent.

SPEAKER_05 45:29

It was the eyes for me.

SPEAKER_01 45:30

Yes, exactly that part when the eyes split and you see multiple eyes within her eyes, and it's just all sliding around.

SPEAKER_03 45:37

Wild.

SPEAKER_01 45:37

It also reminded me of Alien Romulus, Sean. I know off mic you were talking about watching that movie earlier today.

SPEAKER_03 45:44

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 45:44

It just felt like it's if he be jeebies were on screen, those are the heebie jeebies.

SPEAKER_05 45:50

Yeah, for sure.

SPEAKER_01 45:51

Those are them right there, dead to rights. A hundred percent.

SPEAKER_05 45:55

What a great visual though.

SPEAKER_01 45:57

Yeah, it it really is. But that's why I think I appreciate so much more the things that are not horrifically violent and grotesque in this movie. And I want to go back to what was my favorite scene. We talked about it already, but it's the beginning of the film, not the split egg, but her star on the walk of fame.

SPEAKER_04 46:16

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 46:16

Because to follow that star from again being poured, being created all the way to some asshole dropping a fucking sandwich on it, and there's ketchup everywhere. It tells the entire story of Elizabeth Sparkle.

SPEAKER_03 46:31

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 46:31

Even in that moment, I thought, where's Mac to say that he doubts my commitment to Sparkle Motion? But it's so heartbreaking. You think about where these stars are, and and you think about the people that you're walking on the past of.

SPEAKER_05 46:46

Yeah, it's true.

SPEAKER_01 46:47

These are people's legacy. And there are moments in time when they are such a phenomenon, they're so popular, but it's very much the entire what have you done for me lately culture. And to know that you can be so beloved and so forgotten within this expanse of a few seconds, and obviously this years in this woman's life.

SPEAKER_03 47:09

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 47:10

It is gut-wrenching. And that opening scene is the thesis of the whole film.

SPEAKER_05 47:14

Yeah, it is true. And it's such a great like little sequence, montage, whatever, just watching all of the different stages of it becoming a star and people celebrating over it, and then it just kind of slowly cracking a little bit more and getting dirty and weathered, and then the catch up splatter and trying to like it gets buffed into the sidewalk and it just becomes more and more disgusting, and pretty much what you would probably see today when you walk down that street, because let me tell you, I skateboarded down that street on those stars to school five days a week. So it definitely is not as glamorous as it maybe once was, but such a great little montage for sure. It is one of the better scenes of the movie. The other scene that I think is super cool, or at least just from the symbolism and the reference that it makes, the scene starting with where Elizabeth finishes her shoot and walking down that extremely absurdly long hallway with all of her posters of her younger self and how she walks down through the stages of her life and her career until she gets to the end where she's like her current self. And we all know kind of like what happens with going into the men's bathroom and having to hide and listening to a phone call of you being replaced, and that's just completely fucked. But you know, you have all of that, and it and it comes full circle when Sue goes down that same hallway after her first big shoot, and it's still this extremely absurdly long hallway, but there's just one poster, and it's like the cycle of bullshit starts again. It just comes full circle in that moment as well. But what I absolutely loved about these shots was that it's like a direct nod to the shining in the hallway in that film, and even it's the colors that were used all the way down to how the character is like purposely placed and framed in the middle from super far away. I just ate that shit up.

SPEAKER_01 49:08

Okay, I have a very specific borderline irrelevant thing that reminded me of Sean.

SPEAKER_05 49:13

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 49:14

You ever watch Dancing with the Stars?

SPEAKER_05 49:16

Yeah, I mean I've seen like pieces, but not a whole not a lot.

SPEAKER_01 49:20

Every fucking time, Dancing with the Stars, it's a formula. Every time they get to towards the mirror ball tro trophy, there are pictures that they hang on the walls of the dance studio where they rehearse that has moments of like their best dances or their rehearsals, etcetera.

SPEAKER_03 49:37

Right.

SPEAKER_01 49:37

And they're surrounded by their memories, and it's supposed to be like this really big, sweeping emotional thing. And for them, I get it, it is, but also okay, same room, same size pictures, different people last season.

SPEAKER_03 49:49

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 49:49

And it really is that cyclical thing. It's like for you, this is a moment. For you, this is your thing.

SPEAKER_03 49:55

Right.

SPEAKER_01 49:56

For the audience, for everyone around you, you are another wheel in this machine.

SPEAKER_00 50:01

I would say, speaking of wheel in this machine, there's a particular scene that stood out to me both times that kind of feels that way in terms of women in the dating scene in general and how they feel about themselves. And it's that scene where Elizabeth is getting ready for that date. And she, first of all, does it because of the scene prior where she's confronted with the fact that this is what your life is now, huh? Do you notice how she's slowly eating away at you? Have you noticed that you start to question what your worth is, that kind of idea, which is such a spotlight on aging and how it feels. So she goes on that date. She says, fuck it, I'm gonna go on that date. I'm gonna do something for myself while I am this age. But when you go to that mirror and you think you look good, but then you start to second guess yourself, or in her case in particular, she's looking at small things that make her feel like she needs to compare, whether it's the poster or it's literally looking at Sue on the ground, and she starts to tweak something and then she starts to tweak another thing. That was so incredibly profound and deep and dark and very fucking sad because that was something that I, along with many women, and I would say anyone, right? Because I'm sure men have done this too, you know, but I think it's because of the makeup in particular that made me think of women that identify or people that use makeup and that kind of beauty standard in particular, where you have to just put the right amount of foundation or lipstick and do the right shade to feel just extra right. And then it's not quite right. So you fix one thing, and the next thing you know, you're so fucking frustrated because you just can't get it right. You just don't feel perfect that you just don't end up going at all. And that's happened to me and that's happened to many people, I'm sure. And what sucks is you can hear in the background the fact that he had said to her, You're like the most beautiful woman ever, or something to that effect, right? Validating her. And we're told that we have to seek male validation constantly, especially in this film. Like it's a big part of it to an extent. And ultimately, when it comes down to it, it wasn't even enough in this regard, right? Because when when the real truth is, is that you have to think about how you perceive yourself. And if it's not good, then no amount of makeup, no amount of people telling you that you look great, nothing is gonna change that. And that was like really, really like oof. It hit me, it hit me really, really hard, especially watching it by myself this time. Because I think after a little bit after that scene is when things kind of start to take a bit of a turn. And so before then people had kind of been laughing, but after that, people really just started losing their shit, laughing at every little fucking thing that she did. So it kind of killed the vibe. But watching it alone, I was like, God damn, that still hits. It surprises me.

SPEAKER_01 52:53

She's been raised in a world that is built for the male gaze.

SPEAKER_03 52:57

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 52:58

And when the male gaze is stripped and she's in this cold, white, tiled bathroom, all she has is herself.

SPEAKER_05 53:05

It's that fucking bathroom, too, man. Holy shit.

SPEAKER_01 53:09

Who would have a bathroom like that? It's just uh, it doesn't even terrible.

SPEAKER_05 53:12

It's so cold.

SPEAKER_01 53:13

Okay, listen, on the fucking pipeline of substance to saw, they're both fucked.

SPEAKER_05 53:18

They're both fucked.

SPEAKER_00 53:19

They're definitely not great. And back to what you were saying about the male gaze, too, because even in that audition scene, when these guys are like, too bad her boobs aren't in the middle of her face instead of her nose.

SPEAKER_05 53:29

Yeah, oh god. But that's sad, but that's I'm sure that's how it is.

SPEAKER_00 53:33

Oh, absolutely.

SPEAKER_01 53:34

Disgusting.

SPEAKER_05 53:34

I don't doubt it. It is terrible. But that makeup scene is arguably one of the most heartbreaking scenes in the entire movie. It's just the way that she was aggressively taking the makeup off and one of the most intense scenes of the whole movie, which is surprising because it's saying a lot when we get a whole ton of absurd practical effects, bloody gore, crazy monstrosity, like visuals. But to have a scene like this be one of the most intense scenes in the movie speaks volumes to what this movie is able to do and is able to show, and what Demi Moore is able to show you as well. Because man, just thinking about it, and and apparently they took over eleven takes of this scene, and the director wanted even more from what I understand, but the makeup team or whoever it was had to interject saying that she was actually gonna hurt herself if she continued, and then she would have a red, sore face the next day if they didn't you have enough takes. Choose what you want from the 11 or so takes that you did, otherwise she's gonna fucking rip her face off.

SPEAKER_00 54:38

Yeah, very like raw to the bone.

SPEAKER_01 54:41

Commitment to the bit. Okay, but this movie is not without its comedy. And for as serious as this is, we have to acknowledge that she also went full witch with a cauldron when she was cooking.

SPEAKER_05 54:52

The witch!

SPEAKER_01 54:53

And she also went full smeagal in the bathroom.

SPEAKER_05 54:56

She did go full smeagal in the bathroom a hundred percent. But it's the witch finger for me.

SPEAKER_00 55:02

The whole thing in the kitchen was just crazy. That was so disgusting. I'm chicken. That's it.

SPEAKER_05 55:12

It was gross. Blood sausages and fucking nasty, the whatever foie gras she was like trying to make and nastiness and that whole thing. But it it's the start of like everything that starts to transcend from the first abuse of the substance and her discovering the witch finger. That was like one of my favorite moments in this whole film because she's just going to take the sticky note off of the window pane, and she sees it, and she jumps back and then she raises her hand and it's showing her that finger and the decaying hand, and it just felt like one of those campy moments that was a tie back to those 80s B horror movies. That's the camp I'm here for. You know what I mean?

SPEAKER_01 55:57

Mm-hmm. How sudden does your transformation have to be for you to jump scare yourself? Right.

SPEAKER_00 56:02

Oh no, but I would jump scare myself if I instantly saw that my hand was not just like a little fucked up note, like gone. Like practically.

SPEAKER_05 56:10

There needs to be like a song, which finger?

SPEAKER_00 56:13

Well then mead say I uh, you know. God damn, to such an extreme where you just cut off the fucking finger?

SPEAKER_05 56:21

If you just didn't want to see it anymore.

SPEAKER_01 56:23

Okay, fucking amputate your finger or continue down this path and become Alyssa Sue. Okay.

SPEAKER_05 56:29

Theoretically, if you don't abuse anymore, you'll just have that finger.

SPEAKER_00 56:33

Yeah, but I don't want that finger. Right, exactly. Cut off my finger and then realize that I'm still gonna be Monster Sue because Sue is a bitch.

SPEAKER_01 56:40

At least put a fucking splint on that shit.

SPEAKER_00 56:43

Well, she basically put on a the glove and then was afraid to take it off, or it was gonna rip off her finger. Right.

SPEAKER_01 56:48

I guess my thing, it's not about the witchy finger. It would bother me that my hands weren't exactly the same.

SPEAKER_05 56:55

Yeah, I know I get you.

SPEAKER_01 56:57

It'd make me feel like my finger was dirty and I had to like wash it.

SPEAKER_00 57:00

Not the synchronicity killing you.

SPEAKER_05 57:02

It's tough. I don't know if it would bring me to chopping that sucker off, but I do get it.

SPEAKER_00 57:06

That seems like a lot. I uh want to highlight another scene that was fantastic that we can't forget, which is the whole pump it up thing.

SPEAKER_05 57:14

Oh yeah.

SPEAKER_00 57:14

What the fuck?

SPEAKER_05 57:15

You've got to pump it up.

SPEAKER_00 57:17

A bop, sure.

SPEAKER_05 57:19

So good.

SPEAKER_00 57:20

But also, it was giving video drome, speaking of Cronenberg, because it isn't just the fly, it's video drome, it's a lot of his other things for sure. Uh I was thinking of like how bizarre would it be to be in modern day watching TV like that, though. If that was actually a show that was going on right now, would people really tune in and take it seriously? No.

SPEAKER_05 57:42

Yeah, I think well, I don't know if people would take it seriously, but people would be tuning in a hundred percent.

SPEAKER_00 57:46

But people would tune in.

SPEAKER_05 57:47

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 57:48

Okay, fair. I just want to say though, it's kind of subliminally fucked up though. At the end, when she's like, in the meantime, take care of yourself.

SPEAKER_03 57:55

Right.

SPEAKER_00 57:56

And it's like, so self-care is looking like that and doing little jazz or size things. That's actually taking care of yourself. It's packaged as something that's supposed to be like taking care of yourself means looking super sexy.

SPEAKER_05 58:08

Yeah, twerking for 10 minutes and then you know, hip thrusts and a couple of other sexual movements in the air, and then take care of yourself. And then take care of yourself. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 58:19

Okay, but I do think it's absolutely hilarious when she's dancing, and then the what we find out later is like a little chicken wing or chicken leg coming out of her belly button. Oh but you know, it came out of her ass.

SPEAKER_05 58:31

Straight through the repercussions of the binge eating from the other self.

SPEAKER_01 58:35

Oh boy. Which I don't a hundred percent understand the mechanics of, but okay, yeah. Here we are.

SPEAKER_05 58:40

Some kind of repercussion.

SPEAKER_00 58:42

But I mean, it's giving her a fatter ass. Is that not what the beauty standards are? Absolutely. Not the most ideal situation, but you know, that's one way to go about it.

SPEAKER_05 58:52

Yeah, I gotta tell you though, the symbolism and like the different things that they do with these characters, and I think like just to talk about Elizabeth for a little bit, because Elizabeth, I think, really represents a a really a tragic depiction of what does happen to so many women in Hollywood, and I think it's this idea of wrestling with how you fit into society, and obviously, right, you shouldn't allow ourselves to be tied down by these, I don't know, these like cultural paradigms or whatever, like that dictate that dictate like how we view you know our own humanity, right? How we view like ourselves, our sexuality, even to viewing our gender and things like that. But it's just this crazy the symbolism that all of this has in this movie just hits in a different way, but it also hits in another way, like in the same way Frankenstein does for me, especially during that stage scene in the front of the audience during the New Year's show. I just feel like there's just this wanting to be loved by everyone and being rejected completely by society because you're not what society wants to view, or they don't think that this is what they should be seeing, or or what have you, and it's just this crazy thing, and it brings me right back to some of the feelings that I had from Frankenstein. Hunchback of Notre Dame or that, yes, that's another one that uh yeah, that's a great callback too. A hundred percent. It's all of that.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:15

What's interesting about Elizabeth, I think, is also just like her sense of rage and envy, knowing that this is something that she took on to some extent. And so to your point, right, like it she's such an interesting character and perception of what older women in Hollywood are like. Because think of in real life, we see a ton of plastic surgery, body modification, you know, like this crazy use of Botox, all these things that a lot of women, especially in their upper 50s and 60s, especially in Hollywood, they're doing to themselves. And sometimes it gets botched and it gets out of hands. But they did it because they were wanting to stay in this realm of beauty and feeling wanted and being famous and what was socially acceptable.

SPEAKER_03 1:01:06

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:06

And one of my friends was surprised that Demi Moore was casted in this film because she was like, Demi Moore's beautiful. Like, how what how do you want me to believe that this is someone that would take the substance when she's beautiful? And I, my rebuttal to that was Demi Moore is 61 years old. When was the last time you saw Demi Moore in something?

SPEAKER_05 1:01:25

Right. It's been forever.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:26

That she was the you know on the cover of a magazine wearing a bikini. The Demi Moore that we remember in our childhood. When was the last time that that happened? You haven't. You simply just haven't.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:36

I think the last time I heard heard anything about Demi Moore was her being married to Ashen Kutcher.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:41

That was the early 2000s. That's over 20 years ago now. Yeah, that was a long time ago. 100%. And I'm sure that she's been, if I can pull up her filmography now, it's not to say that she hasn't been in it in anything recently. I'm talking about the Demi Moore that we grew up with, like the way that she was out. You know what? I'm gonna give you another example. One of my favorite actresses is Angeline Jolie.

SPEAKER_04 1:02:00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:00

Angeline Jolie is another perfect example. She is not in Hollywood in the same way that she used to be in Hollywood. She's no longer that person, sure, but she was like super hot. And Megan Fox is another one. There's so many women that were made to be this like beauty, sexy, like sex appeal, all these things that are no longer that. And they've had to do Botox and all kinds of things to themselves to be able to keep up. So when you see Demi Moore casted in this film, you best believe it's for a reason. It's just to show you that not even the Demi Moores of Hollywood can be safe or be saved from this kind of thing.

SPEAKER_05 1:02:39

Yeah, no, it is crazy. And the nude scenes are all actual, real nude scenes in this movie, is also wild, right? Yes, Sue had the prosthetic breasts, but that's just to enhance the feeling of this perfect version to fit into what they're trying to show with this other self in the substance. But everything else is a hundred percent real, and I loved that Demi Moore was able to use those moments, in her words, as moments of vulnerability to actually helped her become more comfortable with her own body and her own self while making this movie. And I think it is like a level of vulnerability that was super impactful. I think the choice for her to do that is a brave choice. I think it's like a really crazy thing to do, and not a lot of people have the fortitude to do that. So kudos to Demi for being able to give us a performance like this.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:32

Absolutely. It's definitely brave. And then, even with that in mind, when thinking of Sue specifically in this film later on, like not even she is safe from the male gaze. When all is said and done, that she's gotten rid of Elizabeth, she also has to do whatever it takes to be able to keep up with the beauty standards and whatnot, and she also has to pay the price. Even she feels inclined to have to take the substance, and then we get what we get. Right?

SPEAKER_01 1:03:59

Or even that scene in particular where she's just trying to keep it together, she's pulled out her own teeth, and then Dennis Quaid's character Harvey is saying, pretty girl should always smile.

SPEAKER_05 1:04:09

Oh my gosh.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:11

Oh, nothing irritates the fuck out of me more than men telling women to smile.

SPEAKER_05 1:04:17

Yeah. Can we talk about the fact that Harvey's role was originally Ray Leota's role, though?

SPEAKER_00 1:04:22

Yes, and then he passed away.

SPEAKER_05 1:04:23

I know. And Dennis Quaid got the role instead. And I think Ray Leota, man, to imagine him in the role of Harvey in this movie, I feel like Ray Leota would have actually eaten this role alive. I think he would have done a phenomenal job, but I think it would have been a very different feeling of this character. And I could be totally wrong, but I know the kind of asshole crazy Ray Leota brings to movies most of the time. And I'm just going off of that experience and plugging that like uh character into the character of Harvey and just trying to depict that. And I think he would have done a phenomenal job. It may have felt a little bit different, but it doesn't discredit what Dennis Quaid brought to this role of Harvey either, because he was a fucking psychopath in this movie. And my god, you know, I know we've danced around it, I know we talked about it earlier a little bit, but just the audacity that this motherfucker has and the close-ups that we get of him eating the shrimp at the lunch is just one of the most horrifying moments in this whole movie. It was so ridiculous and over the top and just disgusting. You know, that's one of the things that's always gonna stand out to me when I think of this movie is I'm gonna think of a lot of things, but one of the things I'm gonna think about is this fucking shrimp eating scene.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:38

Yeah, it's gonna be the barbarian nipple scene, and then it's going to be the substance shrimp scene.

SPEAKER_05 1:05:45

Yeah, yeah. It's just so absolutely ridiculous. Who the fuck eats like that? No one. Disgusting.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:53

Disgusting. And yet in power just goes to show you.

SPEAKER_05 1:05:56

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:56

It's just absurd. I would say though, not that I want to More shrimp, however, might be a hot take, but I would have liked in general more opportunity to explore the actual entertainment side and like those conversations with Dennis Quaid's character and how actual like people or like specifically women are treated in those scenarios and those entertainment meetings and stuff like that. Because in reality, for a movie that is a supposed to be about women and how they're being perceived in entertainment and these beauty standards, we don't have a lot of actual screen time in though in those situations. Tennis Quaid is actually not in the movie that much. It's not like when it comes to like makeup and that kind of thing and how it helps with how we're perceived, it's that scene getting ready for the date. Like there's not that many scenes where we're seeing women interact with those kinds of parts of society. So I would have liked a little bit more of that.

SPEAKER_01 1:06:53

But when we do, it's fucking there.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:56

But when we do, it's yeah, but when we do, it's mega. I just wish that maybe it would have been more palatable than and more a little bit louder than the campiness that's in the film. But that that but then that would have to genre shift cum entirely, and that's just a personal preference.

SPEAKER_01 1:07:10

He took away Isabella's whole fucking name and renamed her Cindy because it's fast and people like Cindy's.

SPEAKER_05 1:07:17

Yeah. Isabella, that's too long. Who has time to read or say that?

SPEAKER_00 1:07:20

Yeah, but that's what I'm saying. That was insane. I wanted more of that insanity and absolute like disastrous behavior.

SPEAKER_05 1:07:28

The thing is, is that I I think that obviously that message is there, but I think the bigger underlying message of this movie is focusing on how Elizabeth feels in how she's fighting within herself, and it is depicting all the things that affect her and all the things that push her to that mental state of like self-loathing or just wanting to be something different to please others, to just always wanting other people and everyone else to love you. So I think it's just depicting more so on how she's fighting herself and less on these moments, but the moments are still important, so some of those moments still have to be in there, you know what I mean?

SPEAKER_00 1:08:10

Yeah, that's fair. Monstro Elyssu, though, and that ending. Let's unpack it a little bit more because I do think that it's extremely sad, and it's tough because the line between sad and hilarious is almost nearly non-existent. It's hair like thin when she is getting ready, when Monstro Elyssu is getting ready and she gets that curling iron and tries to curl literally a strand of hair.

SPEAKER_05 1:08:39

Oh my God.

SPEAKER_00 1:08:40

Like I understand that people would see that and laugh if this was a general like comedy film or whatever. They're gonna laugh. I get it.

SPEAKER_03 1:08:48

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:08:49

But also, it's so sad because she still wants to be beautiful and wants to show up this night and be praised, especially when she goes down that hallway and isn't imagining everybody praising her and loving her, but there is actually no one there.

SPEAKER_03 1:09:07

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:09:08

Goodness gracious.

SPEAKER_03 1:09:10

It's a lot.

SPEAKER_00 1:09:10

It was giving a little bit the reference there with just the Masha Alyssa Sue in general is definitely Elephant Man. And I can see that. But I think just when she adds the picture of Elizabeth on her face is just extra oof under the skin because you even then you still don't feel confident enough that you have to put on a face, and literally you have to put on a face to be able to, you know, show up and show out.

SPEAKER_05 1:09:40

Yeah. I saw somewhere, I think it was like on Instagram or something, I saw somebody had actually made this costume already.

SPEAKER_01 1:09:45

Oh, for sure.

SPEAKER_05 1:09:46

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:09:47

That's fucking nuts.

SPEAKER_05 1:09:48

I know. It is absolutely crazy just the reactions in the audience in that show. Like when shit starts to hit the fan, and those are great moments too, though, when the audience is just standing up and like screaming in absolute over-the-top campy horror. You know what I mean? It almost felt like those reactions needed to happen like ten minutes earlier, but for some reason everyone was feel like almost mesmerized by what the fuck they were watching at the time, and then finally it all hit them and shit just really hit the fan. What a crazy time.

SPEAKER_00 1:10:20

Or it was like just that camp timing. Well, it also reminded me of Smile 2. Oh, also Smile 2, yeah, you're right.

SPEAKER_05 1:10:26

Carrie, I feel like you know what I mean.

SPEAKER_00 1:10:28

Carrie as well. Absolutely. Yeah, it's just that that timing piece is what I think adds a little bit to the camp and the comedy, and just gives you a beat, which you're just like staring at it. Is anyone gonna say anything? And then you just hear that like awkward, terrible scream. It's not even an authentic one. It feels like it's just like a scream to scream.

SPEAKER_05 1:10:49

Yeah, it it's crazy. And I love a lot of what that whole scene or segment was doing, but I think also plays into what I feel like is the worst part of this movie because it has to be the egregiously long and drawn out ending. I think it it starts down this path, and that's a really impactful part of the ending. But could that have been edited down a little longer? Did we have to have you know five minutes of complete bloodbath nonsense? You know what I mean? Could we have found a way to narrow this down and still land the plane in the same way? I just feel like the ending needed to be edited down by maybe 20 minutes or so to get this movie under two hours, or at least the third act needed to be edited down by maybe 20 minutes or so. And don't get me wrong, like I said, I love the message. I love a lot of what the scenes are doing and what we got in this ending. But maybe cut out I'm sorry, Chris, maybe cut out the Mortal Kombat battle sequence and just have Sue kill her quicker, you know? Give me just a quick, really brutal beat to death kind of scene and less of the whole chasing around, ring around the fucking rosy, fucking double bicycle kick through the fucking glass, like all this shit. I don't know. Edit it down a little bit, edit down the New Year's show a bit. I don't know. As long as we end on the same note and we don't lose any of the necessities, I think we are good.

SPEAKER_01 1:12:10

Listen, far be it from me to complain about this movie being shorter. I think this movie's runtime might be one of the worst things about it. But I also want to say I don't seriously have a worse part of this movie for my complaints about how long it is. I mean, there's a lot in here that I think it it it's a little it's a little worth the wait. I'd like to see it trimmed, but I don't think there's anything in here that I can think of that is so egregious. This doesn't feel like the same amount of time you have to suffer through, like with In a Violent Nature, which is a much shorter film. It doesn't feel that way. It doesn't feel that painfully long. However, I do think the worst part of this movie is how long I've made it into this episode without talking about how incredible the substance looks, the activation agent, because it looks exactly like the reanimation agent from Reanimator.

SPEAKER_05 1:13:00

Yeah, so true.

SPEAKER_01 1:13:01

And of of course, I only recently learned that you could just do that shit with glow stick fluid. Thank you, Sean and Mac.

SPEAKER_00 1:13:07

Yep. That's pretty cool. Something I learned today. I would say that the worst part of this film, if you couldn't guess already by the end of this episode, is just the approach to the comedy part. I feel like going back to what I said earlier about this film reminding me so much of Death Becomes Her and how they both talk about very similar things. Death Becomes Her approach with the comedy is spot on and great. It has the same takes on beauty standards within the comedy genre, and no one takes issue with it because it does it well. But the approach to it in modern day just feels like a little bit troublesome because my concern and the way that I feel like I've seen people receive this film is that they just don't really care about the issues that women face in terms of how they're perceived in the male gaze or just in general in society, and they just want to talk about how disgusting that monster looks with a tick coming out of it. And I love that we can talk about both of those things. We can talk about the seriousness of the film, but also, you know, have a giggle or two about the other ridiculous stuff on this pod. But in general, it just feels like this film has just been memed to no end. And I I feel like there was an opportunity here to do the comedy just right and keep it at the pace that it was in the first half of the film and still be able to send a good message across. And I feel like to say that this is some kind of like feminist film just seems a little bit of a reach, just a smidge. And that might be my hot take for the evening. But it just seems a little bit of a smidge with just the way that it's been received by people in general. And it could be social media too. It could be that is a factor that it wasn't a case for Death Becomes Her, but just seems like it was a little too off the wall at the end and took the whole story and plot with it.

SPEAKER_01 1:14:58

I think how off the wall it is at the end is exactly what creates the opportunity for me to be able to watch it again. Because if this movie were much more serious, and again, this is a very heavy message, it's a very real topic, it's a very serious topic, but if it handled it without the amount of levity and comedy it had, this would be way too much of a fucking bummer to be palatable. So I'll consider watching it again, but I need to give it a lot of time and space because again, it is quite the time commitment.

SPEAKER_05 1:15:29

Yeah. I mean, it's still, even with some of the levity, I feel like it's still a lot. So I mean, I I've watched this movie twice in the last couple of months now, so I think I'm good for a while. I think there is a ton of rewatch value here, but it is still a lot to watch. This movie is a lot. So while I can say that I will certainly be re-watching this one again, it won't be any time soon.

SPEAKER_00 1:15:54

Yeah, I agree. And I think that having seen it twice now in such little time, it's good to give it some space. But in particular, if you saw it in theaters and maybe just didn't get the theater experience that you wanted, I would recommend seeing this again at home. I mean, at this point, that's kind of like depending on when you watch this, right? Maybe in the future they'll put this back in theaters again. But for the most part, you're probably gonna be watching this streaming. And I think that's like a better avenue for it. And maybe giving it a watch by yourself just to kind of see where you sit with it, and maybe you'll have a good time laughing. But I think it's this is one of those films where you for sure will absorb how you think of this film, depending on who you watch it with. And if someone's laughing it up and having a granular time, like it's either gonna make you think that it's just silly all the way through, or you're gonna feel like, ugh, annoyed a little bit. So maybe just give it a watch by yourself and see how you feel about it then.

SPEAKER_01 1:16:47

Well, we'll see how you feel about it indeed. But for now, there you have it, folks. The substance from 2024 has under Universal Slash. Now we've certainly had a robust discussion here, but the conversation doesn't end here by any means.

SPEAKER_05 1:16:59

If you want to find out how you can go further than this episode, consider joining the family by visiting patreon.com/slash hacker slash where you can enjoy even more of the show, including bonus content with early access, extended episodes with our B-sides, movie nominations so you can be a part of what we watch next, and live shows.

SPEAKER_00 1:17:19

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SPEAKER_01 1:17:28

See you next time, folks, and remember the balance must be respected.

SPEAKER_05 1:17:32

There's been a slight misuse of the substance.