402: Peter Pan’s Neverland Nightmare (2025)

SPEAKER_00 0:04

Specifically that demographic of child, that like 12-year-old boy, ugh, worst age.

SPEAKER_01 0:15

Greetings and salutations, and welcome to Hackerslash. If you're joining us again, welcome back. Who wants to go to Neverland? If this is your first time listening, welcome to the party. We are a horror movie review podcast dedicated to telling you whether a movie is a hack.

SPEAKER_04 0:31

A total joke, a waste of time, or a slash. Totally killer. Pun intended.

SPEAKER_01 0:35

We believe horror is for everyone, and as such, we're rating these movies with a perspective we gain from our varying walks of life and the flavors of fear we fancy most. My name is Chris, I'm your friendly neighborhood slasher enthusiast. This week I'm joined by the classic horror connoisseur Sean.

SPEAKER_04 0:49

It is my duty to send the kids to Neverland.

SPEAKER_01 0:53

The Superfly Space Guy Mac.

SPEAKER_04 0:55

I want to ride my bike.

SPEAKER_01 0:56

And the Screaming Queen Paris. Girls don't get to go to Neverland. The people have spoken and our patrons have decided which movie we're covering this week.

SPEAKER_04 1:03

And if you subscribe or support the show, you'll also get to hear our B-side at the end of this episode where we dive deep into the Pooniverse and talk about what other Disney movies we would like to see as a horror movie.

SPEAKER_01 1:14

After reviewing both Winnie the Pooh Blood and Honey and its sequel, we knew the Twisted Childhood Universe wasn't finished with us yet. And in 2022, the team behind Blood and Honey actually announced their next film. This time the reimagining of a boy who never grows up. The film follows a teenage girl who sets out to find her missing young brother after he's taken by a mysterious figure promising to bring him to Neverland. This week, after winning 56% of the overall patron vote, we're talking about Peter Pan's Neverland Nightmare.

SPEAKER_00 1:46

This movie was nominated by Joanna, who said this.

SPEAKER_04 2:18

I guess that's fair. Listen, I'm a big fan of Peter Pan. I've been watching Peter Pan since I was a little kid. Pretty sure at some point I ran around my house in fucking tidy-whities and tried to fucking play Peter Pan, you know, at one point or another. So I feel like going into this one, knowing that this was going to be some twisted horror take on this childhood tale, I really didn't know what to expect. You know, like there's there's always been the rumors and the lore floating around out there that they're like this dark side to our beloved Peter Pan. So I'm really just wondering what direction are they gonna go in here? Are they gonna take any inspiration from some of the things that people have floated around out there on the internet for so many years and things like that? It could be good or bad. It could easily go either way.

SPEAKER_00 3:16

Until this morning when I received a call of action, a call to action from none other than Chris Rojas saying, uh, I really want to talk to this, I really want to talk to you about this movie and I want to hear what you think. And that told me that this movie contained one of like a small number of themes or elements. Um, so I was prepared for like proper dog shit, but I don't think I was quite prepared for like how specific and intentional and also reckless this pile of dog shit was.

SPEAKER_01 3:46

Wow, we're really just laying it on thick right at the beginning, and I love that for you, Paris. Listen, I liked Blood and Honey, and and I say that acknowledging that it got me in a really sensitive and vulnerable time in my life. I unapologetically loved Blood and Honey too, and I came in ready for Peter Pan. And I came in ready specifically because I saw some of the images in the production stills from this movie, and I just got excited. There is something about the take on Peter Pan that feels like such a medley of other iconic characters that we've seen, and that made me really feel like I could expect nothing more than just dumb fun with a grittier coat of pink. But the thing about this movie is it's gritty, but it's not fun. It's really not like right from the start, it has this unsettling feeling, and I knew it wasn't gonna be like the stupid fun that we get in blood and honey. This movie is it's predatory, so it made my skin crawl in ways that I wasn't ready for, and absolutely I had to pause halfway through and text Paris because I just wanted someone else to process this with. There was no plan for Paris to be on this episode. Paris, you chose to be, and you're welcome to that, and I love that, but I just wanted to process this shit with you because there are so many things that I enjoyed, but then there's such a big component about it that I was like, I don't know how I feel.

SPEAKER_00 5:19

I can tell you how I feel, Chris, and it's pissed off. Most of this movie, well, the beginning I can say, like to its credit, I was like creeped out, I was a little uneasy, like you were saying. It deals with like really, really dark themes. And I think there's elements of this that were successful in making me feel that, but it was mostly like irritation, frustration, anger, disappointment comes to mind. Um, it was a frustrating experience, though I will say, not bored. I was not bored.

SPEAKER_01 5:47

Yeah, I definitely wasn't. I think that's because of this movie. Okay, I'm gonna give you this example. I have a set of silverware. It's like a black, stainless steel situation. It's not exactly that material, I can't quite place it. But when I put it in my dishwasher, if I don't have a very specific mix of the detergent and the rinsing agent, I feel, even though it's perfectly clean, I can feel with my very sensitive fingertips a very specific texture of like a residue on there, and it drives me fucking mad. Like it makes my skin crawl. And that's the feeling that this movie gave me. I can't just like watch this movie just to have it on. It sat with me. It was disturbing in the right ways and also in the wrong ways. I just felt like I needed to take a shower after.

SPEAKER_03 6:36

I think you're both right in so many ways because this movie does keep your attention. It's just that sometimes you don't want it to. And I think the closest parallel for me, we're talking about a lot of sensations. Let's relate it back to a smell because this is like sitting next to somebody who has weak old B.O in a leather jacket on a hot summer day. Oh wow. That's T Mac. Right? So it's it's giving, yeah, it's got my attention. It stole it right away. And there's some moments where it's like, it's interesting, and I want it to have my attention, but there's other moments where I'm like, no, please give my nose a break. I'm tired of smelling this. And I gotta give it credit because I did not imagine that something like this would actually have me looking down at my phone, watching this at nine in the morning when I chose to watch it and not doing something else. I imagined, no, I'm gonna put that on, it's gonna be in the background, who cares? I'll do something else and I'll pay attention here and there. No, no, no. I sat there, focused on the whole thing the whole way through, against my will in some scenes. Yeah. But it it somehow just it pulls you in there.

SPEAKER_00 7:39

Even though it stings.

SPEAKER_04 7:40

Yeah, for sure. For sure. Yeah, bored is definitely not the feeling you're gonna get in this movie. I agree with all of you. The first feeling I had while watching this movie was that it definitely was far more entertaining than it had any right to be. And I think that I think I even texted you that, Chris. I was like, this movie is just far more entertaining than it had any right to be. But I think there's a lot to appreciate here, especially with the gore and how graphic this movie was. So there there are things you can take away from this movie and really appreciate and what they did, but it also feels at the same time, it also feels like a rushed movie, almost like a cash grab, like an overall, just kind of this hodgepodge of different movies that very clearly influenced this movie. You know what I mean? Like there were moments where I felt a little, we'll get into it, but I felt a little bit of Heath Ledger's the Joker, right? Like the black phone penny wise from it. Even Halloween, even Halloween, I saw in this movie. Even right. I mean, you name it, yeah. You name it, this movie took inspiration from something, and and it was I mean, a lot of movies take inspiration from other movies and things like that, and I get it, but like this one felt like it was taking too much, like it was shining through too close to home, you know, in some of these films.

SPEAKER_01 8:58

I get that, and I think there are a lot of movies where we see something very similar to that done, and then it falls apart in its execution, so it's just a regurgitation and then also really bad. But I think what was surprising to me was how stellar the cast was in this. Specifically, we have Tinkerbell and we have Peter Pan. And when I tell you that the portrayal of Peter Pan in particular had me fucking concerned about what voices I'm gonna hear in the middle of the night. This man really brought this character to life, and that was just absolutely shocking. It was by far and away like an elevation in the quality of what we got performance-wise in the prior Winnie the Pooh films, and it also surprised me just how serious this movie is. It completely ditches camp, it leans into emotional horror, it plays with this idea of guilt and trauma and manipulation, psychological breakdowns. There's a lot in here that is not gonna be a fun time to watch. And it's one of those things where you can look at a lot of a lot of this and think this instantly feels like it's in bad taste. And I think that's again part of some of my disappointment because the execution of some of these narratives, I think it does some disservice to some of the characters, and we're gonna get into it a lot in the spoiler zone. There's nothing here that I can really reveal and influence your perspective on, but there was an opportunity for catharsis that we just walked away from. And I think if you're gonna go this direction, I think you need to handle it with a very specifically deft hand, and I just don't know that it was done complete justice.

SPEAKER_04 10:47

I agree on some of the use of like the characters and and things like that. Other than obviously, not a spoiler, it's in the synopsis, other than Peter Pan, right, being twisted into this full-blown like horror villain. I was not expecting this movie to be as brutally violent as it was. I just was not ready for how graphic some of these kills were. But it's gotta be what they did to all of the characters from this beloved childhood story, and we'll get into it in a little bit in the spoiler zone. We break down the characters, and I'm curious to hear your thoughts on what you're talking about, Chris, with these characters and some of this stuff. But it all like there's things that I really liked about it and what it chose to do, but then there's some of my biggest disappointments with this film is also some of the use of the characters and the lack of a particular aspect of this film, or a lack of diving into a particular aspect of this film a little bit deeper. And I don't know if there's a reason behind that, but it is one of the things that we'll have to elaborate it on later because it's gonna take spoilers to really dive into it, but yeah, I think there's it's a double-edged sword. Some of the choices they made with the characters and the story and the narrative, the themes, it worked, and in other areas I feel like it just didn't work.

SPEAKER_03 12:02

It's both good and bad. I think I was expecting this to be really silly when it came to characters. So we're talking about Peter Pan and Tinkerbell. And so I imagined we're gonna be on that next level silliness with flying around and doing this and doing that. And I think they really shocked me with how grounded they made the characters in this film and how they tried to keep them almost too realistic, and they went to like this this next level of grunginess because everything is gross and everybody's horrible. And I think that's where they kind of failed. Like they should have there was something a little bit closer to being not childlike, but less disgusting and less-I mean, it's just too much, honestly. And like you mentioned the gore here, and that caught me off guard as well. But I was expecting some. So I'm like, ah, you know, okay, I can I'd I would prefer it not to be there, but I understand that this is what we're here for in this Pooniverse. But the characters I was not expecting. I was not expecting them to feel like, all right, these are real people, but how are we going to relate it to their to their, you know, cartoon or story versions? So good on them, at least for grounding them. I haven't seen Blood and Honey, either of them. And so I don't know kind of how that works in those films at all. But, you know, here at least it caught me off guard.

SPEAKER_00 13:15

Mac, I'm so glad that you mentioned how grounded they made this movie because that was a big surprise for me as well. I didn't think that that was something wasn't really on my radar. I was like, this is gonna be some stupid over-the-top campy type of bullshit. And Sean, I think I know what you're talking about when you say that there was like something that was not really explored in the way that you wanted it to, because I felt the same way and I wonder if we're talking about the same element. Um and Craig, very surprised that you thought this portrayal of Peter Pan was compelling in any type of way that wasn't just long legs, because this is what if Peter Pan was long legs to the T, to the point where I had to figure out which one came first, because I was like, somebody copied somebody's homework. I don't know if it was Nick Cage, I don't know if it was Peter Pan, but this is the exact same character copy and pasted with a different wig. Overall, one of my biggest disappointments with this film and really the lasting taste that this has for me is its depiction of certain marginalized communities in a way that was almost baffling at first, where I was like, How did you think these choices were right to make? And then it got me like, I was actually so frustrated by it that I looked into like how we got here and was even more disappointed the more I learned about how we got here. I think the road to evil is paved with good intentions. And I think maybe in a vacuum, this could have worked. Um, but we do not live in a vacuum. Uh, and what ends up happening is actually just reckless and careless and is actually probably going to get some people killed in the real world.

SPEAKER_04 14:45

Dang. Yeah, it's interesting that you say that because I feel like while this film touches on this like cult psychology and abuse, right? It really touches on this. And I and I didn't think it actually went deep enough or handled these themes with enough intent or care. That's kind of like how I felt. I think they teased this really serious topic, but I think it ended up uh maybe just using it for shock value and missed this opportunity for some like real horror themes with some of this stuff. And I could have seen this one going in like this mid-somar meets like pan direction, right? I feel like they could have really went in and ran with something like that, but who am I? I don't know. Instead of feeling like truly scary, though, this movie it just felt kind of like mean. Yeah, you know what I mean? It just felt kind of mean.

SPEAKER_01 15:36

It absolutely does, and it's such a blend of both what you're saying, Sean, and Paris, what you're saying. It's not so much that I find the character of Peter Pan compelling, more so the actor who brought him to life and really nailed the execution of it. I don't have to love who Peter Pan is by any fucking stretch of the imagination, but I can tell you that the portrayal of him felt absolutely fucking insidious. And it was just such an effective performance that it's not that I'm necessarily scared walking away from it, but I was creeped out. I was really creeped out, and there's a lot in this movie to be concerned about with the lasting impression it can give. Because to your point, Paris, one of the things I struggle with is the idea, right? Like the path to hell is paved with good intentions. I believe and trust in the filmmakers behind this film, behind Blood and Honey. I've enjoyed their work so far. Read some interviews, and okay, like I I believe there's a lot of like good heart there. I 100% believe that nothing in this movie is done with malice or a desire to perpetuate negative and harmful stereotypes. I believe that. But if this movie were copied and pasted and executed by someone else, I don't know that I would trust that. I don't know that I would feel okay. And that's where I'm like really struggling with this because the horrors that unfold in this movie are violent from a horror movie perspective, and it is effective as a horror movie in being really brutal and squeamish, but the psychological components of it are also fucking terrible and disturbing. There's this third category of horror that is not really about it being a horror movie, but rather what are the ripple effects from something like this existing and what does it play into and what does it really say? What does it think it's saying, and then what is it actually saying at the end of the day? And that's where I'm really struggling with this.

SPEAKER_00 17:43

I would like the record to show that I do believe this portrayal of Peter Penn was actually the better performance compared to Long Legs. Um, I think this was done in a balanced way that at times definitely did creep me out. And I was like, ooh. Like I think insidious is a great word, Chris. There's a there's a certain type of darkness surrounding this movie in more ways than one. And I think that can be scary. I think overall, though, this movie's not that spooky. It just deals with themes that are very scary. And I think the the lack of intention or perhaps the carelessness or recklessness or even just ignorance around the execution of some of those themes is also scary to think, oh, somebody with a voice in a platform could use it with the intention of doing something good, but actually it's bad and just gonna make things worse.

SPEAKER_03 18:29

Oof. It hits hard. It does. And this to me was not scary in a way that like watching true crime is not scary. Yeah, the stuff in there is horrifying, but this really felt like an hour and a half of watching the Night Stalker and way too up close. And I wasn't sure if they wanted me to think it was fun, because it wasn't. You know, when you watch a documentary about a real life, you know, murder and you know, serial killer situation, it's it's intriguing. That's I think while you're watching, because it's it's absolutely beyond the level of comprehension, unless you're of course involved. But you're like, it's really intriguing to see what's happened and how we dealt with it and all these other things, right? But this isn't like that. It's like it's not really glorifying it because it does make it seem like he's walking around in a semi-pooped pair of cov coveralls, but just given my real life interpretation of the character, but it was just like way too much of our of our antagonist for it to be scary at all, I think for me. And instead, it was just just kind of gross. It was like you said, brutal. Yeah, and it was too brutal. I mean, I've never been into you know, you know, the torture genre of horror, I just don't find it interesting. And this went there a couple times when it when it got some of our kills out, but like I don't know, the the conceit of Peter Pan was interesting. I thought it was gonna be silly, they made it less silly. I was like, okay, I'm here for that. Uh, but then in other ways they just took it too far into Rob Zombie Land without it having the charisma of Rob Zombie, and that's saying a lot coming from me.

SPEAKER_01 19:58

It's interesting. I love that. I don't know that it ever was like a forced zombie compliment.

SPEAKER_04 20:02

It's like a forced Rob Zombie compliment, you know? I don't remember somewhat.

SPEAKER_00 20:08

I don't know. It's dirty, it's a dirty movie like Rob Zombie. It's dirty, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 20:12

He does like dirty films.

SPEAKER_01 20:14

I don't know that I could even say anything along those lines, Mac. The the the charm or the con yeah, I don't I don't know that I would apply the Rob Zombie layer here as an effective compliment or like a way to even frame this movie as less than, but where I do want to give this movie credit is where it really executes on something very bleak. And we all know that there's a darker side of Peter Pan. We know that if you look back on the Disney film and you think about what the intention of that story is, and perhaps who the lost boys are, you know that there is something terrible there lurking beneath the surface. But this movie takes that terrible and feels like a absolute escalation of that. And that's where I think this movie earns some points with being fresh. Like, yes, it is an amalgamation of so many different things. We have seen Keith Ledger's The Joker, we've seen Pennywise, we've seen Arthur Clown, we've seen so many other facets of inspiration that are kind of woven into this rendition of Peter Pan, but I don't think the movie is worse for that. I think this movie is more entertaining when you look at it just as the vacuum, not in the total context of like the where it missed steps and where it has problems. But if you look at Blood and Honey, Blood and Honey 2, and Peter Pan's Neverland Nightmare, this is a complete tonal shift. And it's entertaining in a different way because it is the holy shit, I cannot look away from this. Not the oh ha ha funny, funny, fun time. You know what I mean?

SPEAKER_04 21:58

Yeah, it is energy. Like it is entertaining, but I honestly think that this movie walks a fine line between this original concept and a very familiar formula. It is a tonal shift, like you said, Chris. Like it's it's it's not like this fun kind of silly-ish horror slasher vibes that you get from Blood and Honey. It's definitely darker, it's definitely more serious. But, you know, and you just said it, right? Like reimagining Peter Pan as a horror villain isn't necessarily a new concept. There's dark fan theories floating around. There's dark fan theories floating around out there. But I think depicting him in this way, I can see like how you say like it feels like this fresh take, even with the inspiration. But it also, outside of that, it also plays into some extremely familiar horror tropes, still, even with the tone that it has. You have this isolated setting, you've got a group of teens or kids that are in danger, there's a masked killer of sorts, right? And a final girl showdown. Like you've got all the things that make a very familiar horror movie at the end of the day. But, you know, I don't know. It might take away from the overall originality of the movie, but you can't always be mad at it at the same time. I think sometimes it does just work. And does it work in this movie? I don't know. I don't know. It's it's familiar, it's a tonal shift, it was entertaining, but also flawed. I don't know. It's a tough one.

SPEAKER_03 23:25

I mean, it may not be fully original in terms of themes or in terms of honestly kills or whatever, right? Like, is that the important part? I think it's original in terms of execution of an idea that is so outlandish that none of us would have taken it seriously a couple years ago. So the fact that they were able to make a film like this out of such a ridiculous concept is impressive and I think earns it some originality points in my book. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 23:52

It it is interesting. Like the more you think about just the story itself, even without this movie as an adult, the more you start thinking, like, where did these freaking lost boys come from? You know what I mean? Like, where did they just like you know, what's their story? Did they get robbed? Who knows?

SPEAKER_00 24:06

I'm really struggling to find any semblance of an original thought in this film. It felt so derivative from top to bottom. And usually, like with like shitty horror movies, you could at least maybe hold out hope for like a really original kill you've never seen. But we don't even get that. Like, I don't think I mean from jump, I always thought Peter Pan was a diddler. So, like, that's not new. And then, I mean, there's one there's certainly one angle that's a fresh take that no one had ever thought to do before, and hopefully no one ever thinks to do again after this. But overall, this did not feel deserving of any originality. And I gotta say, I was very happy when this movie finally ended. And the way it ended, because obviously we get the end and then we get an end end. I'm like, to what end? Do you know what I mean? I was left feeling like, to what end? What are we doing? Why is this continuing? What's next? And now I'm hearing there's a whole like MCU Avengers Assemble storyline, and I'm like, Jesus Christ, get me out of here, get me off of this ride. Couldn't be happier than when this film ended. Actually, no, I was just pissed off, but I was at least glad it was over.

SPEAKER_01 25:11

You know, hey, the the ending worked for me. I think it ties up some emotional threads and then gives some semblance of okay, perhaps life can go on, and then fuck that, hit you back in because does evil ever really die?

SPEAKER_00 25:28

So you love it because this is a black Christmas ending.

SPEAKER_01 25:31

This is absolutely a black Christmas ending, and that's exactly why I love it. Thank you so much for articulating that. I think the direction that we get in the ending, it really sets things up nicely for that monsters assemble movie, and I'm actually really excited because the realization of who even another character is towards the end of the movie, I think packs an additional layer here. It's really satisfying to see, and I can't wait to see that dynamic explored more.

SPEAKER_03 26:02

I don't know that the ending left me excited or that I was excited it was ending necessarily. I think the ending was fine. I think it matched up with the rest of the film. The trouble I have is what it took to get there, and that is in this hour and a half film, we had a three-hour climax, and it was just like way too much. It took way too long, and I kept thinking, when is this part going to finish? Because like we've done it, all right, we've had our fill. And I don't know, maybe maybe that's just me. Maybe it was too long in the tooth, just for me, and the rest of you appreciated it. But you know, sometimes I just want people to square up and move on. Like, let's just make this thing happen and and move the story to the next beat. And instead, it was lingering in action and lingering in torture, and it was it was too much. But then, yeah, once you make it to the end, it's fine. I wasn't mad at it. I was like, you know, one plus one equals two. I get it. Nothing wrong with that.

SPEAKER_04 26:52

Yeah. I do think the ending for this movie it was brutal, it was bleak, right? But I also think it was semi-predictable at the end. Like I do appreciate this underlying sense that there may be more to this story, and it couldn't have anything to do with the fact that we have already a confirmed sequel that's gonna be happening or what have you. But even aside from all that, I do think that some of the themes that we get in this movie, and especially in the third act and into the ending, give you something to think about.

SPEAKER_01 27:22

Well, there is certainly a lot to think about here, but let's go ahead and get into rating this movie. Before we actually do that, Sean, how would you describe the gore score?

SPEAKER_04 27:32

The gore in this movie definitely takes you from just fairy tale horror and delivers, I think, full-on flesh-ripping carnage. You know what I mean? We really get that departure. If you're into gore, you should find plenty to enjoy in this movie, at least from that aspect, between the fact that they used predominantly all practical effects for these kills to the way the deaths are slow and sadistic. Peter Pan's Neverland Nightmare delivers a skull-crushing, limb chopping, blood-splattering high gore score.

SPEAKER_01 28:05

And what about the animal report?

SPEAKER_03 28:07

I think we're pretty clean here. Unless there's something that I missed. It's mostly, you know, humans and children that are at risk.

SPEAKER_01 28:14

Let's go ahead and get into our ratings then. Peter Pan's Neverland Nightmare. Was it a hack or a slash?

SPEAKER_04 28:20

I'll kick it off. This movie basically, it's basically the cinematic equivalent of a fever dream scrawled in blood and glitter. That's what this movie is, right? It's gory, it's grim, it's deranged. And somehow it this reimagining of a childhood fantasy manages to be far more entertaining than it has any right to be. But there's no magic in this Neverland. Do you know what I mean? Only trauma and carnage. And I think fans of grindhouse horror and low budget slashers will appreciate the efforts of this film, but this movie is definitely not without its flaws. I think, you know, Chris, you've been talking about it a lot. I can't wait to hear your thoughts further. Martin Portlock's performance as Peter Pan is definitely chilling and sinister, but it also for me feels heavily plagiarized. It truly, truly does. I'm just gonna throw it out there. I feel like there were so many opportunities to play with the themes of this movie, but instead we settled for familiar tropes and pure shock value. And still, I think against all odds, it's still watchable and it's still entertaining. But at the end of the day, this movie flies straight. I think it flies straight into absurdity and crashes into mediocrity. It really does. And I don't think this movie, it's never really growing up, it's never really growing any better. And let's face it, there really isn't enough pixie dust in the world to raise this score any higher than a hack.

SPEAKER_03 29:49

I am honestly surprised. I thought this was gonna be kind of your thing for some reason. I don't know why, but I felt it that you like you would be really forgiving of this, and I was wrong, and that is very surprising. I think I've been fairly forgiving, you know, so far. Like I said, it it caught my attention and it kept it. In some moments, I really didn't want it to have my attention, but it kept it the whole way through. However, I just did not enjoy watching this. There's parts of the film that I thought were interesting, parts of the film that I was like, ooh, if only they had done this or that, I'd be I'd be more bought in. But honestly, it just felt like it just felt bad making it through the through the film. It's it's a bit too brutal. I mean, there could have been no gore here, and I think it would have been immediately a better film. Very little blood here, I would have been so much happier, especially with our antagonist that we see entirely too much of, by the way. That bothered me. That really did. We start out this movie seeing him, we w see him throughout the middle too much, all the way to the very end. It's just it's extra. And the performance that you mentioned, I can't wait to break that down when we get to the characters section later on. But let's just say it like, you know, I get that you watched The Dark Knight. I understand that. But there's other characters in the world for you to portray. And you we get it in moments. There's some other moments in this film, there's some other voices that we hear that I was like, yeah, that's the one you should have done for the entire movie. That's all we would have needed, and it would have been different and really interesting and really fun. But instead, it's a bit muddled. You know, it really seems like we had an idea and we were aiming for it in many ways, and then we kind of floundered a bit. And that comes down to kills, that comes down with what we choose to do with certain characters and what we do with the story arc. It's fairly basic, you know, but like I think we just go a little too hard in certain places and not hard enough in other places. And so, overall, for me, this was definitely an uncomfortable hack.

SPEAKER_00 31:33

Mac, I'm on the opposite side here in that the violence and gore was like one of the redeeming factors of me, of this movie for me. With that being said, no, this is absolutely a dog shit hack for a lot of reasons. I I sent Chris a voice memo earlier today, and she was like, You can't say that on the pod, like you can't say those things, Paris. If you want to find my full uncensored review, check my letterbox. But truly, I believe that the man responsible for this. I read some interviews about his intention of like normalizing LGBTQ representation and doing all these things. And I'm like, sir, you as a cis gay white man are not equipped to tell certain stories within that community. And that's okay. I like the intention there, but it doesn't mean do it anyway and hope it's fine, because what we get here is something that is reductive, it is dangerous, it perpetuates things that are leading to violence against people in the real world in a really significant way. And I'm like, there is a reality, I believe, in which this could have been done in a way that had me being like an actual secret cheerleader for this movie, being like, actually, you guys, this is really great representation, and you'd be surprised. Don't hear me out. I know, I know it seems like a shitty ass movie, but it's it's just a shitty ass movie. And it didn't, it didn't do that well, and it did it in a way that was ham-fisted, inelegant, said nothing, and also added no value. I'm actually like, it added no value for this element to be added to the film. It actually just made it worse. And it just said, oh, well, that didn't need to be like, why am I in it? Why am I in it? Do you know what I mean? Like, whenever I don't know if you guys can relate to this, whenever I see like a person of color being executed by gunpoint, that never feels good. Sure, it might make sense for your story, sure it might be a plot point. It never feels good because it's too close to home, it's too close to reality, and it feels like it's exploitative and being used for shock value. And that is exactly what I think this movie did, with something very near and dear to my heart that I won't say because of spoilers. With that being said, this is the biggest hack I've given this year. And yet, you know, I can't even say I was mad that I was bored. You know, it wasn't like that kind of bad. It was bad because it made a bold choice and it was the wrong one.

SPEAKER_01 33:38

Listen, this movie is a little all over the place. I mentioned earlier it's dark, it's bold. This movie hits hard and it gave me a feeling that I think other movies in the past year have attempted to give. And it's interesting that you bring up long legs because I found more l comedy in long legs, and there was intentionally those moments, right? But I think the feeling that I was supposed to get this sinister discomfort, I didn't get that nearly to the extent that I got it here. And there are two very different stories, two very different characters, and yes, there may be some overlap, and there's like a Venn diagram, and somewhere in the middle there's Long Legs and Peter Pan existing and doing a little dance. But for me, I cannot shake the feeling that this movie gave me. And I think that's very significant because for a movie to affect me in that way, it means that something in here was done really fucking well. This movie isn't dumb, stupid fun, like the two preceding films. We've talked about that. It's dark, it's gritty, it's nasty, it's so nasty, it's so gross, it's predatory. It's a movie that makes you want to shower after, but amidst the darkness, there are heroes, and I am very interested in knowing where this story goes next. And maybe it's because I've been along for the Pooniverse ride so far. There's a lot here to say about specific characters, and I want to caution you before you watch this film, if you choose to watch it after it getting the scores it has so far. As soon as there are key uh aspects of this story and its characters revealed, I text Paris immediately because I was like, I just need to fucking process this with someone before I finish watching this movie. Like it had that level of feeling. This movie really toes a line with its execution of certain narratives. And I don't think it's done with any malintent. And yes, we can you don't need to necessarily be from a specific community to be able to tell a story that encompasses communities, but when you go the fucking direction that this movie goes, you gotta you gotta tread carefully. And I don't mean worry about and I and I don't mean to be too precious about it, but rather just be a little more introspective because if you think you're doing something and saying something for a good cause, then you have to make sure that you're handling this with a high level of care and intentionality. And when I watched some interviews with one of the lead actors in this film, she shared, yes, there was a lot of collaboration, there was a lot of back and forth, there was a lot of insight and perspective that was asked of me. And and I love that. And that's where I again I believe in these filmmakers and I believe in the intent, but sometimes, in spite of those intentions, you can be inadvertently playing into harmful stereotypes. And when you look a little deeper at this movie, I think there is something here to still appreciate. I do. And I understand that it's fucked up, but this movie is still a slash for me. Because holy shit, it's an effective slasher. And with that, Peter Pan's Neverland Nightmare has earned three hacks and one slash. Now you can find this movie available, stream online. You can check the link in our show notes to see where you can find it. Up to you if you watch it, up to you if you don't. But either way, join us into the second half of this conversation so we can actually dig into these spoilers without being vague. See you vague.

SPEAKER_03 37:14

Feeling grounded by the weight of adulting, burnt out of doom scrolling on TikTok, don't let the overwhelming stress of growing up and getting old bring you down. Introducing Pixie Dust RX. The only street legal sprinkle that'll make you fly, cry, and maybe die. That's right, it's time to chase that high straight past that second star to the right and never come back, because Pixie Dust RX is the only darkly magical microdose that may or may not have been brewed in the remains of a hollowed out lost boy. One sniff of this stuff, and you'll be levitating higher than Captain Hook's blood pressure. Side effects include hearing whispers of your childhood fears, seeing shadow people, developing an irrational trust in orphaned children wielding knives, and a sudden craving for crocodile meat. Warning. If you find yourself waking up in a Victorian nursery covered in glitter and trauma, just continue use and consult your conscience or your therapist. Use promo code Hackerslash at checkout and get a free haunted thimble with your first bottle. Supplies are limited, much like your grip on reality. Pixie DustRX, it's not addiction, it's never growing up.

SPEAKER_01 38:20

Welcome back, folks. You're now entering the spoiler zone for Peter Pan's Neverland Nightmare, which has earned three hacks and one slash. Now we have a lot to unpack here, but before we get into the specifics of our ratings, let's go through those kills.

SPEAKER_04 38:33

Well, from the very first kill, this movie sends a clear message that this is going to be a far more violent tale and really sets the tone for the rest of the movie. And for all you slasher fans out there, I feel like this kill count should not disappoint. With a death toll of 21 and some really brutal and violent kills, there's bound to be a lot to talk about. So I gotta know which one of these kills dusted your pixie.

SPEAKER_03 38:59

Oh gosh, did any of them this feels almost wrong to like pick the kills in this film? This reminds me of the movie 300. There's a quote from that of a disgusting character that says, This will not be over quickly. You will not enjoy this. And that's what I felt with every single one of these kills. They had the audacity to take out 13 kids on a school bus.

SPEAKER_04 39:20

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 39:21

And of all the kills that we get that were all unearned, this one bothered me the most. So maybe I'll this is the one that I'll highlight because it's just little kids are just on a bus. They're not really involved in the story, except to add shock factor, I guess. Yeah. And it's insinuated that he probably he probably uh asphyxiated all of them. Yeah. One by one. And it's just it thank goodness they at least did not show that. I'm happy they didn't go that far. But the fact that they, you know, they they put the math in front of us and let us figure it out. I was like, that's it's too much, man. Like it's just, you know, it's it's is it too violent? Of course. Is it too gory? No. Thank goodness. Thank goodness we didn't get that. But to me, that was just across the line, and we didn't need to be that across that far across the line.

SPEAKER_04 40:09

It takes like the whole fuck them kids to a whole nother level, this entire movie, right? Like everything from like killing killing 13 kid kids on a school bus to like literally all the kids that that maybe grew up, right, in this twisted fantasy of Peter Pans, right? Like you just think about it, the more you think about it, the this is a really fucked up movie. Uh, and I think it's funny, you know, the 13 kids on the school bus because I when I watched this movie, I deliberately counted 13 fucking kids on this school bus, even though the news broadcast says 11 kids. I want to make that clear. There were 13 kids on that school bus. So they either they either fucked up or they just there were survivors that they just didn't tell us about. It's one or the other, but I'm playing it safe with what I saw.

SPEAKER_01 40:57

Yeah, listen, that school bus scene was oof. Seeing these kids be that reckless and then screaming for their lives was certainly a moment. One of the things that I really enjoyed about that particular moment was as he's approaching the bus, he's already stabbed and killed the bus driver, and we see a shot of his boots approaching the bus. He steps in a puddle, and then there's like blood dripping into the puddle. It was just such a fucking great shot. That's neither here nor there. My favorite kill was holy shit, it felt like an Arthur Clown kill, and that was Roxy Hook. That was the mom in the beginning of the movie. Oh, yeah. I'll talk more about this later because it was absolutely this entire opening was my favorite scene. However, the level of fuckery when he is hiding beneath a table and chops off her toes, and she is going toe-to-toe. It was reminiscent of what I think the Michael Myers and Lori Strode showdown at Halloween's ends should have been with just like brutality, like tit for tat. And then for him to actually just scalp her and peel that back.

SPEAKER_04 42:12

The scalping I wasn't ready for.

SPEAKER_01 42:14

I wasn't, I wasn't, but that is a hundred percent Damien Leone's special. That is a hundred percent a terrifier special.

SPEAKER_00 42:21

Yeah, when that scalping happened, I said, for what reason? The bitch is dead. You got her. You gonna keep the wig? I don't think he did keep the wig. So, like, what was the scalping about? Needless violence is what it was about. But yeah, that was actually my favorite kill, too. Was it also I loved when the children died, and I was sad we didn't get to see all of them die. Specifically, that demographic of child, that like 12-year-old boy, ugh, worse age. Fuck those kids specifically, their attitude on the bus, their energy on the bus. I was like, no, all y'all gotta go. And then to just like have it implied what happened, I'm like, no, let me see him chasing them all in the woods and them trip over shit and then get choked out, you know.

SPEAKER_04 43:03

Too many prosthetic effects to come up with for 13 kids, you know? That's what it probably comes down to.

SPEAKER_00 43:10

They had to pad the body count. Exactly.

SPEAKER_04 43:12

Okay. It's it the scalping is is definitely a brutal kill. And you know, I agree with you, Paris. Like, why, right? Like, I I think it was definitely brutal, definitely shock value, and this movie's full of that kind of stuff. I would have loved to see a little that maybe something with those scalp, like maybe he has this thing for scalping people, maybe he collects these scalps, maybe he he makes like a little, I don't know, thing that he like wears or or like attaches, you know, and makes this little I don't know. I don't know. I'm just saying there should be some significance to that for sure. But I do want to shout out Peter Pan's kill because it was one of the most violent and prolonged deaths that I have seen in a while. Let me just like take you back. Back to the wild ride that is the journey of this dude's death. Okay? Because he gets stabbed in the neck with a used needle full of pixie dust. Probably overdosed. Heroin boots. Probably overdosed. Hit with a fucking sledgehammer. Gets a whole ass shelf pushed on top of him. Choked out with a fucking baseball bat. And if that's not bad enough, he then gets beaten with a random piece of wood, gets his eyes gouged, and hit in the face with a meat cleaver before being dragged away by his own twisted experiment in Captain Hook. So God only knows what happened after that. Who knows? Maybe he finds his way back. I don't know. I just think what a fucking journey that kill was.

SPEAKER_01 44:47

Yeah, that was like a Tom and Jerry level kill. Except we actually get, I guess itchy and scratchy level kill would be a better comparison. Holy shit. And listen, I didn't even register or clock it as a kill, obviously because he's alive and being dragged into the shadows. But I think the level of physical violence he endures is certainly enough to be have to have been worthy of that. One of the things that I think is really interesting is the way they went into Peter Pan and just building him up and giving him this fucking horrible, horrible, horrible movie is because they are framing him as the big bad that everyone else is gonna fucking team up against. So all these villains and all these other movies are intended to just be aligning to fucking take his ass down.

SPEAKER_04 45:38

Really?

SPEAKER_01 45:39

Yeah, at least that's what I've come to understand. So Peter Pan? Peter fucking Pan.

SPEAKER_04 45:43

The main dude.

SPEAKER_01 45:44

The fucking big shot over here. That's what I've come to understand. Obviously, the movie is not here, right? So there may be updates. Sure. That also could be a misinterpretation of some of what has been released so far. But for him to have gotten all that shit done and then be taken out by little James, who we saw in the beginning of the movie. Little James.

SPEAKER_00 46:08

I was waiting for him to come back, and I'm glad that he did. For some reason, I thought they were gonna do like some crocodile shit experiment on him, but then to see the hook, I was like, uh, sure.

SPEAKER_04 46:16

Because it felt like Tusk.

SPEAKER_00 46:18

It felt like Tusk, absolutely, Sean. I agree. Tusk was felt. And I gotta say, I hated, hated the way they made Captain Hook look. Like the the hook, even as a prosthetic, was like about three feet too long for it to be some sort of like a meat experiment. I don't know. And I have to say, like, I didn't love a lot of the visual choices made in this movie. So it was difficult for me to come up with a favorite visual element. However, there is a scene where Wendy, still dressed as Velma for some reason, and her mom are crying about Michael having still been abducted and not coming home. Uh, and mom comes in and it's like this rainy scene, and you see like the the light shining through the rainy windows, like cascaded all across the kitchen. And the mom comes in, her makeup, her like mascara is like running down her face. And there's just the two of these women having this conversation about like their lost boy, while like the rain kind of like trickled down them from the outside. I thought that was really well done and really well executed. And I was like, Oh, we decided to clock in on this day on set, um, and then clock out the rest of the film. Sure. But I think they kind of ate with that one.

SPEAKER_01 47:24

There was a lot here to appreciate. I think in terms of lighting, in terms of cinematography, even just thinking about the moment where Peter Pan is not necessarily introduced, but at the circus and he locks eyes from across the room with James.

SPEAKER_04 47:39

Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 47:39

That entire scene, like him just entering the frame with his finger pointed at him, was fucking chilling. But I'm thinking about a couple moments. One I mentioned earlier with the 13 boys on the school bus in that puddle right outside. He also kills the store clerk and he is looming over his body in the reflection, and his reflection is is looking back at him from this pool of blood, and he just like scurries away. There are mo so many moments like that that really elevated this in terms of like the quality of the talent that we saw on set. And you can tell that even if these are the same filmmakers, they really are growing in their skill, movie to movie to movie, and that was really exciting to see.

SPEAKER_04 48:26

Yeah. I think outside of the fact that they pretty much used all practical effects for the kills and the gore in this movie, which I love, I would have to say that I really enjoyed all of the little Easter eggs that they sprinkled throughout this movie. Like Pixie Dust. They had a ton of stuff that you could like, if you pay enough attention, and maybe that makes it like you know worth going back to if you didn't see any of this stuff. But if you pay attention and look closely, you can find all kinds of fun stuff in this movie. There's like Pooh and Piglet carved into a tree somewhere, there's some kid holding a stuffed Bambi, there's a bag of fairy dust that's labeled Geppetto Labs. There's I think even Joey is wearing a like a blood and honey shirt or a Pooh Bear shirt or something like that, if you look closely there. And even on the bookshelf, there's books that are labeled with some of the upcoming films. You have like some of the books that are labeled Pinocchio Unstrung, and so there's little things that are sprinkled in there that I think was kind of fun and added to part of the entertaining aspect of the film.

SPEAKER_01 49:29

Can I add just a couple more?

SPEAKER_04 49:31

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 49:32

So we actually have duality of cast. So the boy who plays Michael was actually young Winnie the Pooh in Blood and Blood and Honey 2.

SPEAKER_04 49:41

Oh, no way.

SPEAKER_01 49:42

The store clerk played Piglet in Blood and Honey 2. There are other actors that replies they reprise their roles or just fill in in different ways. But the mother in this film is Christopher Robbins therapist in Blood and Honey 2, and she's wearing the same story. Oh story just got chambers, she's even credited by her full name in Blood and Honey 2. What? So there's the implication that these movies are happening simultaneously because I'll fucking do you one better. In this movie, Wendy is at the salon where she works. There's two friends there, two women there. One we see are like Tiger Lily, who ends up dying later in the film. The other one is talking about how they're going on a glamping trip. That glamping trip is the opening kill of Blood and Honey 2.

SPEAKER_04 50:36

In Blood and Honey 2. Yeah. What the fuck?

SPEAKER_01 50:39

What the fuck?

SPEAKER_04 50:40

Dang. The connection is there.

SPEAKER_01 50:42

Mm-hmm. It's them still.

SPEAKER_04 50:44

It's there. The timelines are intertwined.

SPEAKER_00 50:46

Mm-hmm.

unknown 50:46

Dang.

SPEAKER_00 50:47

See, on paper, I love all these Easter eggs. I love all these connections and through lines, but I don't know. I just wish the subject matter or the material wasn't garbage. Do you know what I mean? Like, do it with something good. Do it with something fun.

SPEAKER_04 50:59

Yeah, I agree with you on that. It there are a lot of really fun things and stuff, and it's entertaining and it's fun to pull stuff out of, but like I feel like, man, I really wanted to dive in deeper to some of the lore in this movie. I really wanted to explore Neverland a little bit more. You know what I mean? Like, I wanted, even though like it, you know, he's creating Neverland, it's I wanted to dive into that aspect of the psyche of Peter Pan. You know what I mean? Like, I was I was here for that really dark stuff. Like, go even darker, and I probably would have been way more bought into it. Like, I feel like what we did that was dark was very we and we've been saying it's a common theme that we're throwing around tonight, shock value, right? Like, I think a lot of it was for shock value, and I wanted to dive in deeper to the story.

SPEAKER_03 51:42

I can buy that because the story, when it's interesting, is interesting. And so it's worth it. Like when we get the wall of newspaper clippings and everything all tied and glued together, and it looks wild and crazy, and he's he's seeing his own shadow and he's getting high on pixie dust and going off in his own little world for a minute. That part is interesting to me. Uh for some for some reason. It's like seeing the clock ticking behind you know Peter Pan's brain.

SPEAKER_04 52:06

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 52:06

Uh there's other smaller things though that I enjoyed that like like the use of sound in certain cases, so having old music on the on the vinyl record, solid choice there. Playing it over the phone and not really saying anything until we actually speak, good choice there. Uh, but even the use of like old film on an old TV, I enjoyed that as well. There's something about old footage that looks off-putting when it's on a black and white TV or just like on a really old television. And there's something also about, I mean, we see this in so many other horror movies. If you use really old public domain film, for some reason it makes things creepy. Like rock it. Like, keep keep it going. We did it in Star Trek as well, because again, public domain, it makes it a lot easier to broadcast that. But yeah, those like little details that are ineffective, I mean, effectively they're just like set dressing, but that's fine because I think that's the stuff that like adds to it is those tiny little details. The look, though, the look of these characters reminded me of Preacher. I don't know if you've seen that TV show character ass face or Ars Face, who's got his mouth twisted to look like a butthole. But they just reminded me of that where it was like deliberately campy. Like the the scars we get on Peter Pan's face there were not my favorite, kind of going along with the hook look. So I just I don't know. I wanted to throw that out and we could talk about it more if you want to, but yeah, visually, I think less is more in this case.

SPEAKER_01 53:30

I do agree about disliking the look of Hook, specifically because, and block me if I'm wrong, is Hook not giving wrong turn character? Is Hook not giving it around?

SPEAKER_00 53:42

It's like why did you go bald and have all those little tracks sticking out your bald cap?

SPEAKER_01 53:47

Particularly even maybe one of the ghoulies in the fucking descent.

SPEAKER_00 53:50

A little bit. And it was only 14 years, so it was like there was some age stuff there that I had questions about.

SPEAKER_01 53:56

Yeah, I mean it's it's concerning. But I actually want to throw it back to James Hook from the beginning of the film because holy shit, what an incredibly effective opening. Yes, it's for sure Pennywise and Georgie, we get it, but the dynamic between them, and also just again, how heartbreaking seeing James really wanted to just go get his mom, and then just being lured into this. Peter was creepy as fuck in the narration, and then seeing how he manipulates these children and to then get to James, and for his mom to step out of the shower, see what's happening, and say no, and then all of a sudden his voice changes. He's he drops the act and he says, No, this is my friend, you gotta let him go. It is just scary as fuck. Thinking about hearing that voice break into your house in the middle of the night and snatch up your children. What the fuck? Like that is an unsettling aspect of like the home invasion portion of this movie. When you look at this movie as a home invasion movie, oh my gosh. Him creeping around and his prowling it is terrible. I don't know that I have felt this strongly about an opening scene to a movie since like What A Stranger Calls. I think that's where it's a good one for me.

SPEAKER_04 55:18

It was a good one. Like, I even wrote that down too. Like the whole opening sequence of Peter like trying to abduct and take James and the the whole lead up to killing his mom and everything. Like, yeah, it was a really, really solid opening scene. I agree with you for sure.

SPEAKER_01 55:32

My jaw dropped.

SPEAKER_03 55:34

It was also his best portrayal of Peter Pan, the entire film. Yes. That opening scene. The vocal change that you mentioned, I think was so well executed that that was what I had hoped for the rest of the movie. Was I want the I'm a little kid going into the really horrifying, like super deep voice thing that was obviously like modulated or something. I don't know what they did, or if that's just a skill that he has, but that shift was perfect. And then we kind of settled in the middle for everything after that. But like the way that he is trying to play, the way he's trying to maneuver, and then that brutal response to the mom that you mentioned didn't care for the whole kill sequence, whatever, but like that initial peeking through the floorboards thing was so good. And I feel like they really like started out at a 10, and where did they go from there? Like, best moment for Pan the entire time.

SPEAKER_04 56:24

Yeah, it did set the tone for the film. Side note though, how strange is it that I got this low battery message on my computer the moment that this fucking that this girl got a low battery message on her fucking computer in the scene before Peter kills her friend in the other room. Isn't that fucking odd? Like I'm telling you, like if it wasn't at the exact same time, it was it's like within a millisecond of happening, and I just like stopped for a moment because I was like, what the fuck just happened? That's so weird.

SPEAKER_01 56:58

Lost boys in a little get dressed.

SPEAKER_04 57:04

It's wild, it's wild. But yeah, that opening scene was good. I also really liked the Marco Polo scene.

SPEAKER_01 57:11

Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 57:12

I thought that right, like I thought that scene was good, like walking through the house, the warehouse, whatever the fuck it was, knowing the the polo was coming and we get that big jump scare. It was good, right? Like I feel like they did that really, really well.

SPEAKER_01 57:25

It absolutely did, and actually, it reminded me of two films. One, the 2018 Halloween with the mannequin scene, and also Hellfest. Because there's a moment in haunts where they're surrounded, like in what in the end of one of the houses by just a bunch of the like mannequins wearing the same, all wearing the same costume.

SPEAKER_03 57:45

Yeah. I think I have to like, as always, you know, I'm boring. I think when you compared to all of you, but like my favorite scene was Joey just existing as a human being and a friend. Just like the best little bud that anyone could could hope for, comforting Michael and just telling the bullies to go screw off. That was great. He just like stared him down and was like, nah, dude, like, not cool. Get out of here. We're done with that garbage. We have no time for that today. This is my friend, holding the hand. I don't care what anyone says or thinks, it's us. We're best buds. I just, as a character, of course, really enjoyed him. But then like that moment in time was great because I think a lot of a lot of movies would have approached that with like a fight or with you know, having to like physically push each other off, and he was just like, Nope, you're not even worth our time. Get out of the frame right now.

SPEAKER_00 58:32

I did really enjoy that little kid. He had some spunk and some gumption. As far as favorite scenes, though, I think the opener is definitely one of the better ones for me because that's when I still had hope for this movie. Um, even though, again, in the moment I was like, This is it, this is long legs, this is derivative boots. But there was a moment in the third act of the film between Peter Penn and Tinkerbell, and God, I hate that I even have to say these names, where there was a very poignant and nuanced interaction that happened between these two characters. And I felt like that was actually a result of the collaboration that the director had with the trans actress who portrayed Tinkerbell. Um, and in this scene, they are fighting and Tinkerbell's betraying him. And she said something to the effect of like, I never believed in Neverland or like whatever. And Peter Penn responds with, That's fine. I never believed in fairies. Now Tinkerbell identifies as a fairy, also a trans woman. In this, so for him to sort of turn his back on the child he abducted, groomed, and then made accomplice to many other child abductions, abuses, and murders. Um, and then took her as a lover, betraying her and then kind of denying her her womanhood in that final moment was actually very nuanced because that is something that trans chasers definitely do. They'll like blow smoke up your mouth, like thank God I'm not single and I don't have to deal with these men. But they're out there and they very much do this, where they will just be like, Oh my God, you're a girl, you're a girl, like I'm not gay because you're a girl. And you're like, oh yeah. Like a lot of girls fall for it because they're like, oh, somebody's affirming my gender for the first time. Like, yes. And then the moment things go south in the relationship, or like after they met, they'll be like, You're not a girl. I never thought you were a girl, you're a dude. And it's like, baby, no, baby, that's not no, not quite. But weaponizing that sort of a thing to try and hurt a trans woman was very real and very accurate. Now, with that being said, I would love to talk about this character tinker film. This is the reason I was asked to watch this movie. Chris was like, I need you to weigh in on the depiction of this trans woman. And at the very beginning, it almost goes in a direction of like protect trans kids, because it very much is like, hey, this child was expressing a different gender identity than the one they were assigned at birth. The mom was kind of like supportive of it, the dad seemed like he would have gotten there eventually. And they were very clear about that being like, hey, this character is not trans because of the trauma. These are two separate things. And I said earlier, in a vacuum, this could be an opportunity for like an interesting, complex narrative about a trans character who's like morally gray, but we do not live in a vacuum. And we do not live in a time or a space where we can afford morally gray depictions of trans people, especially when they're positioned in such close proximity to child abuse. That for me was like, we don't need to conflate these things. We don't need to give, and I don't want to drag anybody specifically, but there are certain trans content creators who create rage bait content, for example, filming themselves in the women's room at Disneyland. If you know, you know. And while that should be a perfectly innocuous thing a trans woman can do, which is just like use the restroom that assigns to their gender, some people take it too far and they do it in an exploitative, rage baity kind of way that actually only serves to make things worse for us because it gives the people who already hate trans people more ammunition and fuel that they can use in their crusade to kill us. So while this movie attempted to say something nuanced or interesting about the trans experience, in the end, I don't think we can really redeem a character like this, even if it's just like, oh, well, she was brainwashed, it was Stockholm syndrome, she was doped up on fucking pixie dust heroin the whole time. You're making me do way too much work to find something redeemable about this character. And the people, there's a large demographic of people that will watch this film that don't have the critical thinking skills to see anything beyond a trans person being an accomplice to child abduction, abuse, and murder. Yeah. Which I hate. Hate that so much.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:32

And when you dissect to that, right, is the problem with the desire to have a complex character who is a good character and serves to be like a secondary antagonist, turned into a support role, turns into a protagonist and a hero later in this franchise. Or is the problem the people who are innately just have these thoughts and want to imbue this level of violence, right? So there are a couple of like different components of that conversation. I struggle with Tinkerbell, not because I struggle with Tinkerbell, but because of how we're flying a little close to the sun. And I think that's a lot of what you're sharing, Paris. When you have a subject matter like this in proximity to what is happening with Peter Pan and these boys, on the one hand, you might think, oh, well, Peter Pan kidnapped Timmy. Timmy identifies now as Tinkerbell, and Timmy could not be a lost boy because he was not a boy. Is that not affirming? And you could go back and forth in your brain about this. But the reality, I think, for me is I never saw anything in Tinkerbell that was different than a victim and someone who suffered from the hands of Peter Pan. Because think about like at the beginning of this movie, she was such a small, small child. Such a small child. She already knew that she was different, but she is despite all this horror and despite all of this terror that she's been exposed to in her life, and she's learned how to survive and to cope, she still has such a level of warmth. And I think it's fascinating that Kate Green was able to like deliver that nuance. I struggle with this because even though we look at what the intentions of this movie are, to your point, Paris, a lot of people are just gonna watch us and be like, oh, that's fucking weird. Or oh, see? Kidnapping. They're hurting our babies. Ignoring the fact that literally this was a child who was groomed.

SPEAKER_04 1:04:40

Right, right. Brainwashed.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:42

Exactly. In this movie, Tinkerbell is not a villain. Tinkerbell was a hostage.

SPEAKER_04 1:04:48

Tinkerbell was a hero.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:51

And a hero. And again, was influenced heavily over years. Remember, she was the first one when Peter Pan was 17 years old. So significantly longer than Hook has been in Peter Pan's custody. There's so much there, and I struggle with it because for as highly executed as I think certain components of this movie are, I don't think this was executed well enough to stick the landing. And again, if you copy and paste this movie and I didn't know that it was from Scott Chambers, and I didn't know any of this, I would question it. I'd be like, well, what's the story here? What's going on behind this? What's happening behind the scenes? What is the intention? What are you trying to say? Because it sounds like maybe you're misspeaking.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:36

Yeah, for me, it was very much another example of the trans community just catching strays. You know, it happened with Silence of the Lambs, even though they were very mindful to be like Buffalo Bill is not an actual transsexual. He thinks he's a transsexual, but actually he's this. Because nobody remembers that part of Silence of the Lambs. They remember the tranny in the mirror skinning fat women. And then again with long legs, Osgood Perkins came out after all the people were like, This feels Vaguely transphobic for some reason. And he was like, obviously, this isn't transphobic. I'm not transphobic. But I'm like, your intention can be one thing, but if the community's catching strays and like we're already on blast right now, and like people are actually dying and like experiencing violence as a result of this stuff, let's not give any more fuel to the fire. And because I was very frustrated when I ended this movie, I was like, who made this? How did we get here? Read a lot of interviews. The director was very much like, I want to normalize LGBTQ representation. I want it to just be like a normal thing. And I'm like, yeah, had Wendy been trans, totally fine. Normal character with a normal character arc. This was not normal representation. This was representation of the abduction and grooming of a young trans kid. And then the subsequent, really just like dragging of her entire life and decisions and decision quality up to that point where it just casts a grossed feeling, even for some. And like, can we can we all agree? Like, I'm not usually offended. And I didn't find it offensive. I just found it to be careless, reckless, and dangerous. Which is like, it takes a lot to upset me. Cause like I usually don't give a shit. You know what I mean? I gave a shit.

SPEAKER_02 1:07:05

Right?

SPEAKER_00 1:07:06

Like, I'm not the one that's like, oh this is transphobic, blah, blah, blah. Like, but this was this was not handled well. And I think the result is bad. And it's gonna hurt people. I think it can actually be bad. Anyway, I'm done talking about that. Cause it's well, would it piss me off?

SPEAKER_04 1:07:22

I yeah. And I yeah. And I'm wondering, like, would it have been, I guess maybe not by the end message. I was like, would it would it have been any different? Because I was thinking, like, even not just with Tinkerbell, but with Hook and some of the different characters it it portrayed, would it have been any different if we got to like see a little bit more of like what happened to those two individuals or those two characters? You know what I mean? Like, would we have been more invested into the story? Like, would it have made the movie any better? Like, if we if we were able to understand the journey, like if if the first installment in this, you know, Peter Pan's Neverland Nightmare universe within the Puneverse, you know what I mean? Would it have been any different to be like, okay, we started with Peter Pan at a young age and he and we got Timmy and whatever, and then we went on and and hook and we got to dive into like how he was playing Neverland with these people, right? Like, I wonder if that would have been any different or if that still would have been portraying in a negative way.

SPEAKER_00 1:08:21

I don't know. Wait, Sean, I love that you brought that up because there is an opportunity there to do something with Peter Pan's character. Like there's clearly some like mommy issues, some mom trauma there that they like slowly build up to, but then never quite right, and then they also show that he has like scars on his body and is like has his genitals completely mutilated, which like what's that angle and why? Do you know what I mean? Yeah, like the ass shot was one thing, but then showing the smoothed over Barbie parts. I was like, what are we doing? Why why is it going here?

SPEAKER_01 1:08:51

It's never certain if he is genuinely suffering from having been abused as a child, or if he is saying that to manipulate those around him, right? It's it's I mean, looking at how just evil his character feels, it's just it's hard to tell which way that goes.

SPEAKER_03 1:09:11

Yeah, that is true. I think and I think you know, going to the idea that like Peter Pan and his history could have been done better, Hook should have definitely been a completely different character here. I think Hook is a nemesis and not basically a failed lost boy or a creation. And I think that should have been part of Peter Pan's past. Sorry, a lot of a lot of alliteration there, but like we really should have seen something aside from the mentions of the mother that caused the trauma that that Peter has obviously gone through in life. And I think that could have been hook. And I don't know who it could have been, you know, some other person in the past with some really evil intentions that cause damage. Maybe, maybe it's a stepfather, maybe it's a relative who knows what it is that perpetuated that cycle of abuse onto Peter, and now Peter's a serial murderer and and you know, child abductor. So I think that was a missed opportunity to do something with that nemesis character. Not that we would need to have him fight or anything like that, it's unimportant, but you know, if you're gonna do flashbacks to anything like that, that would be the kind of thing to give us here. Because I think what I'm lacking is is Peter's motivation for any of this, aside from like I'm gonna take them all to Neverland, and you know, to do that means killing them. But why? You know, why, what is what is the thing that Peter's getting out of this? I think you know, if we were going into like the mind hunter of it all, that would be that's something they would touch on, right? If you were going to really ground a character like this, it would be evident why that why they were like addicted to this behavior.

SPEAKER_00 1:10:41

Yeah, I think there's Don't we think he's a pedophile?

SPEAKER_03 1:10:43

Not at all. I mean, I don't think it even has to go that far, right? Because like, is it even mentioned? I think he's just strangling them all.

SPEAKER_04 1:10:49

Yeah, the taking to Neverland, you know what I mean?

SPEAKER_01 1:10:52

Yeah, I right. So what is the kissing Tinkerbell indic indicates that there's been a lot of kissing previously, and at least 14 having the boy sit on his lap when he reads on the book.

SPEAKER_00 1:11:06

Yeah, interesting. There's they have to be like pre-pubescent.

SPEAKER_01 1:11:10

There's there's a lot there. And I think for me, I loved that Hook is going to be what I would presume to be like a hero. So yeah, Hook is a nemesis, but he's a nemesis to Pan because Pan is now evil, because in this realm, right, and this take on the story, the enemy of the enemy is my friend. And so yeah, Wendy saw him, was like, I'll send help, eventually gets interrupted from that. But I love the idea of seeing someone be able to fight back after 15 years of just being stowed away, tortured, mutilated. I wish it hadn't gone that far, right? Like you think about how sweet this precious little boy was in the beginning of the movie, and just to see who he has now become. I am really excited to see what they do with Hook.

SPEAKER_04 1:12:02

Yeah, it is interesting, I think, and it's not really that uncommon, I guess, for the thought of Hook being a like not the villain. I feel like we've seen that depicted before as well, but it is it is really interesting. Uh and I just want to throw this out there. I know we've talked about it a lot throughout the episode already, but when we just look at Peter Pan himself, Paris, you know, you're mentioning long legs. I definitely get that. I mean, there is just so many heavy other things too. Like the the licking of the lips was straight from Heath Ledger. Like that guaranteed felt like just the Joker right there. And then obviously, uh, you know, the moments that we're getting penny wise is like when he when he's like coming up from the floorboards, right? Trying to like, hey, we're not strangers, you know what I mean? Like there it's there's a lot of really interesting things that I feel like where you know you can take inspiration, and I think he did give a really unhinged and chilling performance. Like, I'm gonna give him credit for that, but I also think there was some conscious decisions to really pull from specific scenes from other movies.

SPEAKER_00 1:13:10

Do we think one of the references on this character mood board was also old Greg Coded? I fucking wrote that down. I was about to say it. Very old Greg coded, too.

SPEAKER_04 1:13:21

Oh my god. No, I do want to ask though, what are what are our thoughts on Wendy, darling? We haven't touched on Wendy that much, and she is our final girl, so I do want to hear some thoughts on Wendy.

SPEAKER_01 1:13:31

Listen, we're in the sis we're in the season of Big Sister Final Girls, and that has been a recurring thing over the course of horror history for sure. But you get Sienna Shaw from Terrifier, and now you have Wendy Darling here. I think Wendy goes on an interesting journey. I think it's clear that she is young, impressionable. She is hung up on this boyfriend of hers who's clearly you know gonna break up with her any day now. But the fact that she harbors so much guilt over Michael disappearing, and then to see the tension that that places on her relationship with her mother, like there's a point where her mom tells her to go stay with her dads. Like she clearly blames her, and the relationship is not healthy there. But Wendy is the one who doesn't give up. Wendy is the one who says, You can't say he's gone, you can't say that. Wendy's the one that goes to find him. Her friends get murdered, that her friend and her co-worker and her co-worker's whole family. But to look at everything that happened, for her to then grab her keys and still follow to find her brother, knowing it's possible that her brother's already dead, but still going to try, I think it speaks to a lot to her character. And she's been through a lot of shit. The scene we get with her at the end of the movie is fucking tough because she's realizing her shit isn't over, like any good final girl. But I enjoyed her.

SPEAKER_04 1:15:02

Yeah, I agree. And I think that's one thing that kind of stays consistent no matter what version of Peter Pan you're watching, you know what I mean? Whether it's whether it's a Disney Peter Pan or it's the Neverland Nightmare Peter Pan, I feel like Wendy shines through as this as this really kind of like overall pretty good character consistency.

SPEAKER_00 1:15:21

This is probably my favorite depiction of the character Wendy in any Peter Pan property. Cause in everything else, I'm always like, dumb bitch, get out of here. Like she's always gives like limp wet noodle energy. Or like kind of just like bogging everybody down. Cause like, wasn't everybody trying to have a good time and Wendy was like, we should go to bed? Blah blah blah. I don't actually remember Peter Pam. I do also think Wendy should have been the trans character in this movie, would have been better.

SPEAKER_03 1:15:45

Okay, I gotta go back to this being the best depiction of Wendy because have you not seen Maggie Smith? Have you not seen Hook?

SPEAKER_00 1:15:51

Oh my god, I've seen Hook. I hate Hook, Mac. Was Maggie Smith Wendy and Hook?

SPEAKER_03 1:15:56

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:15:57

Old Wendy?

SPEAKER_03 1:15:58

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 1:15:59

Who was young Wendy in that movie?

SPEAKER_03 1:16:01

There was no young Wendy. You know, they'd all aged and stuff, but but then they go back. They didn't go back in time. They just went to Netherland and you know Maggie Smith. I'm sorry, Maggie Smith's still the best Wendy for me. Just saying.

SPEAKER_00 1:16:12

Well, I do love Maggie Smith, so I'll take your word for it.

SPEAKER_01 1:16:16

No, I know I've had some good things to say here in this movie. And actually, in the keeping of our characters, I just gotta say that the worst part of this movie is how Tinkerbell's story seemingly ends. And I'm glad that I knew she was already getting a movie or that she was gonna be in the Puneverse moving forward. Because you know that even though she's seemingly dead here, she comes back in some way. But what's tough is that after everything she goes through, she has her stand against Peter, and it should have been a very triumphant moment. And I think emotionally it certainly can feel that way for her, but she still violently gets cut down, and that's not what I wanted to see. What could have been more interesting is even if Tinkerbell was Tinkerbell and Wendy was Wendy, but Wendy dies and then Tinkerbell's our final girl, I could have been into that. I think it it's devastating the way that she's handled here because this movie again walks a rays within line with its themes, right? They have good intentions, but in this moment of like potential catharsis and triumph, she just loses. And she's been losing her whole life since being taken by Peter. And I just wanted to see a happier moment for her, a happier ending, her ability to escape with Wendy and Michael and to live the life that she deserves to have.

SPEAKER_03 1:17:38

This should have ended so differently. Keep the characters as they are, just make a subtle change here. That 35-minute climax scene that we get, Tinkerbell should have been the one to kill Peter, and it should have happened. Maybe they need to move the line. He should have been saying that he doesn't believe in fairies, he doesn't believe in her, right? And Wendy and Michael should have been there to stand up and say that they believe that Tinkerbell could stand up and do what she has wanted to do for who knows how long.

SPEAKER_00 1:18:05

That's cute, Mac, and it's also thematically viable. I think that's a great pitch.

SPEAKER_03 1:18:10

I'm just saying, you know, if they're gonna make another one, Peter Pan number two, make this the movie within that universe and fix your issues here.

SPEAKER_00 1:18:18

And the kids are the trans allies that are gendering her correctly. Yeah, like not only did she lose at the end of this, but she was also subject to the most brutality and violence of anybody. Like, first of all, her entire life. And then also both arms completely cut off. Oh my god, you can't even go anywhere from there. Like, I don't know what they're gonna do with the the spin-off. Like, is she gonna have prosthetics? Is it gonna be a prequel? Wings the hell did they put him? Well, that's interesting you said that, Sean, because the way they had her like feather boa like fringe on her nightrobe was almost like like he had clipped her wings in a sense. And I was like, well, that's kind of interesting. But again, horrific violence against trans women on full display. We see enough of it, or at least I see enough of it all the time in my algorithm, just because I'm part of that community. So I'm much more tapped in. But I'm like, we don't need that. This is exploitative. And like, yeah, like again, if this character was not trans, this movie wouldn't have changed at all. But instead, they did this.

SPEAKER_03 1:19:18

Now, with that being said, it's hard to follow up with the worst part because I feel like we've said, you know, a lot of of really negative stuff. So it's kind of it's probably a good thing that we get to use a best part, right? I think it's probably like it's it's time for that. I want to I want to throw in like a really tiny, really small thing that I think was a just a good choice, and that was having Peter Pan's shadow. And I think that gave us a little bit of a look into his psyche, showing us what happens in his mind when he's got those alone moments where he himself believes in Neverland, and that part is obvious, and he is fighting to be able to go there himself and to bring these kids with him. That was like, All right, you're giving us a glimpse into the why, and I like that the fact that he sees him, the fact that he like thinks he's flying when he's when he's taking this pixie dust, like good, do like you don't necessarily need more of that, but those little subtle small things uh helping ground this character and explain like a little bit of like why this why this dude really thinks this way. Like that was just a good little choice, and plus, you know, Shadow Peter Pan is just a fun little thing.

SPEAKER_04 1:20:21

Yeah, it's really interesting because I agree. I think the best one of the best parts of this movie could be that dive into Peter Pan's psyche, even though we don't get to dive into it that much. I totally agree that it's one of the better aspects or themes of the movie that's largely unexplored. And I really do like you pointing out like what when he's doing the pixie dust and he sees the shadows on the wall or his shadow on the wall, or whatever it is. It's also this really parallel tie to people that do use heroin and things like that, because you've got the whole seeing scaries on the wall, we've got the Alice in Chain song, Lane Staley, right, obviously singing about shit that he's experienced using a lot, and he's got the song where he's just like scaries on the wall, you know? And it's and it's it it made me think of that song, and I think, yeah, it's it's probably like a really interesting choice. Like we're we're exploring a lot of dark themes, and and we haven't really talked much on this episode about the pixie dust angle and the you know the the drug abuse angle and and that thing, and that's a another heavy dark theme that this movie chose to throw in there, but we didn't get to explore enough of it.

SPEAKER_00 1:21:32

I also have something that we didn't get to explore enough of as my best part, Sean, and that is the specific moment where Peter Pan says girls don't get to go to Neverland, because on its face, like, sure, you you're into boys or whatever, got it. Like, that's your your shtick, that's who you kill, that's your MO. But then I was like thinking about it more, and I was like, actually, that is true in the sense that girls are never really given the opportunity to opt out of growing up because as soon as you hit puberty, you're adultified, men start to look at you in a predatory way, and you just don't have the choice to like stay a young, naive person in the way that men do, because a boy can go through puberty, can get a job, can get married, can have kids, and still never have to evolve past a certain level mentally or emotionally, in the sense that like that they never grow up. Like so many adult men are out here that are fully just enormous children, and that's a luxury that women aren't afforded. And I thought that that was something there's something really interesting there. There's a lot of morsels of really interesting ideas in this movie.

SPEAKER_01 1:22:30

Well, listen, I do think that there are a lot of interesting morsels in this movie, but I do think that they did a good job executing some of them. Again, there is a very large one that was not executed well, and that's where I I struggle with this movie, but I think I'm interested in seeing it again. This isn't one that I'd throw on casually by any means, but it's one that I want to re-watch when I feel like I'm ready to revisit the layers. As soon as we get Bambi out in the theaters, I might just give this one another go. Maybe I'll binge watch Blood and Honey 2, and then this one. It's emotionally exhausting, but there's enough going on underneath the surface that I think a second viewing could reveal even more. And I really want to chew on this a little bit longer. And I I want to be clear, do not watch this movie for fun. Don't do it. But if you're someone who likes to dig in and if you want to explore horror that challenges you, not in a way that I think a lot of cerebral horror movies challenge you, but more so like this is a very interesting case where this movie belongs to a family of movies that are dumb fun that you should just be laughing at, and then it goes and does this. It's just an interesting case study.

SPEAKER_04 1:23:42

I agree. Like, even though I technically did give this movie a hack, I think I would still watch it again. I think there are definitely things that I want to re-explore in this movie. I think there were enough Easter eggs to deserve another watch, and especially before another installment comes out. Specifically, I I mean, maybe not when like a different story comes out, unless I find that they're connected in some way that's special or significant to it needing to watch this movie. But for sure, if there's a sequel that comes out, I will definitely revisit this one.

SPEAKER_03 1:24:12

Oh my gosh, this movie can join the Lost Boys and just head to Neverland right away because I'm I'm done with it. And I haven't seen Blood and Honey. And I just after watching this and kind of putting pieces together about what they're about, I don't really have an interest in the Pooniverse.

SPEAKER_00 1:24:28

Great side of history to be on, Mac. I'm right there with you. Um, I do regret to say that while I will never watch this piece of slop again, this feels like AI-generated slop. This this whole this man's whole shtick of like the what if we ruin your childhood story AI slop. I do feel obligated to kind of see what they do with the rest of this Tinkerbell character. So I might watch the spin-off or whatever other property she shows up in just to see if it's possible that they could stick the landing. This one is a bust. It's a wash, it was a flop, they've they've they failed, and it's too late now because it's a completed body of work that will forever exist. So kind of have to cut our losses on that one. But I'm I'm like, I want to believe in a world in which they could do, they could stick this landing that they insanely even attempted in the first place.

SPEAKER_01 1:25:17

Well, listen, this has certainly been a journey, but for now, there you have it, folks. Peter Pan's Neverland Nightmare has earned three hacks and one slash. We certainly had a robust discussion here, but the conversation doesn't end here by any means.

SPEAKER_04 1:25:32

If you want to find out how you can go to Neverland with us, consider supporting the show by visiting patreon.com/slash hackerslash. This is where you can enjoy even more of the show, including bonus content with early access, extended episodes with our B-sides, movie nominations, and live shows.

SPEAKER_00 1:25:49

And whether you're locked into the Puneverse or this is your stop to get the hell off this train, go ahead and leave us a five star review wherever you get your podcasts. This helps us continue to deliver great content for all of you horror fiends out there.

SPEAKER_01 1:26:00

See you next time, folks. And remember, we're not strangers at all.

SPEAKER_04 1:26:04

There's no need to be frightened.