407: Heretic (2024)

SPEAKER_01 0:04

I am a dirty cheater in the Sims. Life is hard enough. Greetings and salutations, and welcome to Hackerslash. If you're joining us again, welcome back. Would you like to come inside? If this is your first time listening, welcome to the party. We are a horror movie review podcast dedicated to telling you whether a movie is a hack.

SPEAKER_03 0:26

A total joke, a waste of time, or a slash. Totally killer, unintended.

SPEAKER_01 0:31

We believe horror is for everyone, and as such, we're rating these movies with the perspective we've gained from our varying walks of life and the flavors of fear we fancy most. My name is Chris, I'm your friendly neighborhood slasher enthusiast. This week I'm joined by the Superfly Space Guy Mac.

SPEAKER_03 0:45

I've never had a Wendy.

SPEAKER_01 0:46

The classic horror connoisseur Sean.

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My sister said her ex-husband had a scary big peen.

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And the paranormal pheromore Vinks. We don't talk about Taco Bell. The people have spoken and our patrons have decided which movie we're covering this week.

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And if you support the show, you'll also get to hear our B side at the end of this episode where we break down our top-tier list of fast food joints.

SPEAKER_01 1:08

More than a decade after co-writing A Quiet Place, Scott Beck and Brian Woods set out to explore questions of belief, faith, and mortality. The idea was sparked by Wood's personal loss, the death of his father, and the theological research that followed consumed 10 years of development and script refinement. The story follows two young religious women who find themselves trapped in a game of cat and mouse inside the home of a man who seems to be more than he appears. This week, after winning 67% of the overall patron vote, we're talking about heretic.

SPEAKER_00 1:39

This movie was nominated by Rob, who says, I just watched this movie and I'm still not sure what I think of it. I would love to hear everyone's thoughts because I have a feeling I'm going to be thinking about this one for a long time.

SPEAKER_01 1:49

Well, I can't wait to hear everyone's thought about it. I know I felt very passionately when leaving the theater, but Mac, I know you haven't seen this yet. What were you expecting going into that?

SPEAKER_04 1:59

I heard a lot of buzz from people around me who went to see this in theater. Not from y'all because you're respectful, right? But everyone else told me to expect the unexpected, but not necessarily in a twisty way, but that the premise might be flipped on its head. I didn't know what that meant. I didn't know if that meant this was gonna go supernatural, if this was gonna be just a religious themed slasher. I had honestly no idea what to expect going into this, except for Hugh Grant. I knew what to expect there. So that was all I knew.

SPEAKER_01 2:28

Hell of a guy, Hugh Grant, quite frankly. And Bing Sean, I think you just like me saw this in theaters.

SPEAKER_00 2:33

Is that right? Yeah, I saw it in theaters with some friends, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 2:36

Yeah, I actually didn't see it in theaters. I did see it a long time ago. It fill feels like a year ago, but I saw it when it actually became streaming. I was up in St. Augustine, I think, visiting family with my wife, and I remember watching it, and I think I even was talking to you about it, Chris, because I was like, I really want to get this on the podcast because I really want to talk about this movie.

SPEAKER_01 2:57

Yeah, I'm actually pretty surprised that it ended up needing to be nominated by our patrons. I thought for sure we would have gotten it in sooner, but hey, you know what? Sometimes things just slip through the cracks, and the people are here to protect us in the event of that. Bink, you saw it right when it first came out in theaters?

SPEAKER_00 3:13

Sure did. Pac theater. It was a very interesting experience. I went with several different friends, and you could only imagine with that theater experience and the typical like circle of debate and conversation post-movie, especially for one like this, it was definitely intense, but in a good way, right? Because we're all friends, it's casual, but like it was a really good, like mentally stimulating experience.

SPEAKER_01 3:37

Yeah, I think part of the experience of watching this movie is also just acknowledging where you come from, like a theological or religious perspective. I personally am not religious at all. I was raised Catholic, but I find myself just one of those people to be kind of like, um, hey, you know, you're into what you're into, and I respect folks' need for a belief, a guiding principle and a guiding belief in their life. But like, don't be an asshole about it, right? I think that's generally where I fall. So this kind of movie was really, really interesting because I've had friends who are so devout in their faith. And then I've also had friends who are just like unrelenting atheists, and sometimes they're both jerks to each other. So going into this and actually watching this movie, I found myself almost like you're watching like a table tennis match, right? Like you're just going back and forth. I'm like, damn, these are some great points all around. I found myself like super interested in this movie. This was a surprise one where I went to go see it with Allie just like for a little date night, and we had no intention of recording it on the podcast as of that moment. So I got to just sit back and really just like immerse myself in just the emotion or the feeling of the movie. And I remember walking out of it thinking, like, damn, that was thought-provoking.

SPEAKER_03 4:47

For sure. To say the least, right? I think even coming out of this movie, it sparked this debate, even just between my wife and I, because I was not raised religious in any capacity, and my wife was also raised Catholic. So we went back and forth, and obviously, without giving any real points away from this movie, I was like, you know what? I don't want to say I told you so, but I told you so. And then we just went back and forth on this whole thing. But that whole thought-provoking thing, the way it makes you like continue the conversation afterwards was so interesting.

SPEAKER_00 5:22

I think for me, obviously, also raised Catholic, it's interesting because it made me realize that I haven't really had that kind of discourse in a long time. I went to private school, both elementary and middle school, in high school, like I was still a little bit involved in church because of my parents and my grandparents. So I felt like for a good majority of my life growing up, I was having these kinds of conversations, or it was definitely around me, but it's been a long time since then, for sure, right? And so it was nice to be at a different point in my life talking to my friends about what this film raises questions on, right? And not that I think it's anything original in the sense of what it's talking about and discussing. These are things like theology and philosophical questions that we kind of come across maybe every now and then, sure, especially when it comes to certain situations like death and afterlife or whatever, right? But it's just been really fun to re-watch this again, even though I've seen it maybe about a year ago when it came out. Rewatching it again, I've already been through some a couple of things where it's like, damn, it hits. And it like really makes you think. And re-watching it by myself was also a different experience, too. So I felt like I was connecting a little bit more with the discussions and the conversations and the dynamics between the two main characters as well, feeling a little bit more empathy for them. Because initially, you know, not maybe not the most sound decisions were made by some of our main characters, but you remember that they're young and there's some naivety that co comes with that. But watching it alone, I felt like it was a bit more of an intimate, reflective experience.

SPEAKER_04 6:53

I did not have the same response to this. This is so interesting because to me, it wasn't as thought-provoking. There are points brought up in the film that I've seen hundreds of times before. And so to me, it was almost like when you're watching one of those YouTube videos that's trying to convince you that the pyramids were a bit boy aliens, and you're kind of like, all right, I get it. You think you're really smart, like whatever. But I almost felt like that was on purpose. This is how we're trying to present a certain character and their ego. And so I didn't feel that it was like, oh my gosh, so thought-provoking. It's making me question stuff because I know where this point is headed, and that's fine. I want to see how that plays out. But watching it happen was still really fun. But I think the first half of this film builds tension through dialogue and lighting and camera work, and that was phenomenal. We get to watch Hugh Grant be Hugh Grant. We just fully fueled with this religious-themed fervor, and that was a blast. I didn't find that in me, at least it caused any questions because I've seen all the material, I feel like, in the world previously, but it more spoke to me about his character and of course about the other characters in the film. It was really reflective, I think, of them. And it was like setting the stage for me instead, is how I felt about it.

SPEAKER_03 8:00

Yeah. And I think even outside of like the religious debate, I feel like there's a lot of feelings that you get when you're watching this movie and it evokes a lot of tension. I think tension runs wild throughout this entire movie. There's this uneasy or unsettling feeling that I feel like you have from the early moments of this film all the way through the end. And I think that this unsettling tension was done in a really clever way when watching this movie. But I gotta tell you, I don't know about you guys, I gotta tell you, one of the strongest feelings that I got from this movie was that I've never not wanted a piece of pie more in my entire fucking life. Let me tell you. But let's just acknowledge the fact that the rom-com to horror pipeline is super strong in this movie because you mentioned it, Mac. We've been talking about it already, introducing this movie. Hugh Grant, I think one of the most surprising things about this film, right? Because Hugh Grant's character as a whole, I know we can't really dive into characters right now, and I know a lot of people might be looking for a horror movie to watch and see. Like Hugh Grant is in a horror movie, and you're probably thinking, this doesn't seem right. But let me tell you, folks, I was surprised in a very good way.

SPEAKER_00 9:10

Absolutely. I've got to say, I think that's the most surprising thing that had probably occurred for me in terms of watching films and the new releases that came out last year. It was Hugh Grant's performance. I just watched Notting Hill. I think I mentioned this in one of our previous episodes recently, that I just watched that movie and I had never occurred, like it hasn't come across my table, right? So I watched it, but then I was thinking about how I needed to see heretic, and I was like, damn, what a what a range. You know, we love to say that, but definitely is the most surprising part. But in terms of disappointments, I want to go back to what you were saying, Mac, because on the flip side, I think in terms of what it's being what's being discussed is really contingent on the kind of person that you are and the things that you engage with. Because if you're not someone who likes to dive into philosophy or having these conversations with the people around you, I think that this is something fresh for a lot of people going into this film. So the friends that I came with, they don't really talk about these things very often. You know, it's like a taboo topic almost religion, politics, et cetera, right? So I think that's what made it refreshing because I haven't had to use that muscle in a bit. But at the same time, what is actually being discussed, if this is something that you're familiar with and have dabbled in, it's the same kind of things that you've had to deal with. And the third act is where you really feel it the most. If it felt like it was almost losing a little bit of control and we were ramping up towards something that ultimately I already knew. I thought maybe it was going to pivot into something else, like a different, fresh perspective, but ultimately it's still made for a good time, but I almost felt like I wanted a different kind of reveal of sorts.

SPEAKER_01 10:48

That's interesting because I feel like when you have these types of debates or arguments that are being formed. Listen, religion is a tale as old as time. I don't know that I wanted anything different. There are a couple of disappointments that I have, and I don't even want to begin to explain what they were. A, they don't have a super big bearing on I think overshadowing the rest of how I felt about this movie. But B, when we get into the spoiler zone, there's a lot there in terms of like interpretation and just making sure that we can like really dig into the detail there. One of the things that I love about this movie is yes, these are the same conversations that we continue to have, continue to have, and continue to have, but it's actually done well. It's actually, for me, done really well. I can't tell you how many times it feels like people are just like clutching at pearls and just getting into this one side of an argument where you refuse to listen to l literally anything else around you. And it's interesting for me to say that given the premise of this movie. Obviously, there's a power dynamic here and a sense of control. But when you think of just the writing behind this movie and the level of careful nuance that goes into every angle of this, because this could have easily felt too far on one side of the course. This could have easily felt like one of those things where it's just, well, I'm gonna pick a lane, I'm gonna stay in it, and fuck whatever the else you want to think. But I what I love is its ability to approach such a topic, but also feel I wouldn't say reverent, but respectful of all parties involved, minus women. Just kidding.

SPEAKER_03 12:26

Yeah, I mean, I I definitely would say I was taken aback with the way that this movie leans so heavily into those deep theological debates, the philosophical tension, right? That those are some surprising elements. If you don't know anything about this movie going into it, you're gonna be like, wow, this is an interesting way to like start this movie and maybe even get through the first half of this movie. And I don't really have like a whole lot of disappointments with this movie, but I do think it's not that I have a problem with the second half or the third act of the movie. I don't have a problem with the reveal really, but uh what I do think is when we actually got to what felt like a traditional horror movie, it felt like we kind of rushed into it after the slower pacing of the dialogue heavy first half. And so if I'm really trying to pull something of like, what did I dislike the most, it could have been that.

SPEAKER_04 13:14

I can add to that as well, because I think I really enjoyed the dialogue heavy first half. I think the tension building was there. It was just really interesting to watch as well. They could have been talking about play-doh. I don't even care what not play-to, but like literally the toy that's dough. And that would have been interesting for some reason, right? But when we make that shift and we work our way towards a resolution, I was honestly hoping for something more explosive or less. Something closer to the first half would have been satisfying for me as well, but that we went kind of in this middle ground where it's not like crazy, crazy, crazy. I mean, granted, I just watched Weapons. We just talked about that recently, and so I watched this after watching weapons, and so I think that has a very different sort of build than this. This one here is like a switch, that we change gears halfway through the movie, and as we make our way to the last quarter, we shift again. I was hoping for something either more gradual or for just kick it into high gear and go absolutely crazy. I don't know that we fully went there. We went almost there, but there was something just weird about that transition that felt a bit off. And I know we'll talk about that more in a minute, but it wasn't quite right.

SPEAKER_01 14:23

Part of why it wasn't quite right is because it almost undercuts what was so great about the first half of the movie. And when you think about what's frightening in this, it's not this is a weapons moment, we're gonna have a million jump scares. There's a couple, but the other side of this is it's really a testament of like how vulnerable are you to maybe other perspectives, and there's this really insidious performance from Hugh Grant where on one hand you feel almost mild mannered, on the other hand, it's like a thinly veiled smile, and you just wonder what's lurking beneath the surface. And you're tiptoeing and dancing on this line the entire film up until all bets are off, right? And then every all the cards are on the table and we know what we're getting into. And even then, when you talk about how this kind of like wraps up Mac, it just reveals a specific element that takes the bite out of it, and for sure, that's not scary. That again, to Binx's point, it feels like tale as old as time. What are we doing? Okay, but it was actually appropriate, it makes it less scary, just shitty.

SPEAKER_03 15:29

Yeah, I think although like this movie does try to give you that traditional fear that you would get in a typical horror movie eventually. I don't think this one is all that scary. I do think that there is this feeling of psychological dread for sure. We definitely get that, but most of the fear, I think, comes from this claustrophobic tension, this manipulation, the mind games. It's all of that rather than the gore of the jump scares, because those are like really just not really there. They're not prevalent.

SPEAKER_00 16:00

Yeah, I feel like Hugh Grant is the scariest thing of this film because he raises the tension, he makes you feel uncomfortable. And I'll say that the performances from our leads like feeds into that sentiment because otherwise, I think maybe you would buy into his performance, but just try to tell yourself, okay, well, this is Hugh Grant, rom com guy, the master. But they feed off of each other really well. I feel like the dynamic between the three of them is great, and it does make you feel claustrophobic. A lot of that also has to do with the set design that's executed extremely well. But there's not like jump scares per se. There's some really tense moments, a lot of dark vibes, and maybe one particular scene might get you if you're a little susceptible to it about in the second half. But overall, I wouldn't say that this is scary. It's more like a thriller horror type of tension-building film. It's giving drama. It's giving drama again. Is that our new? Like maybe that's a fall aim we've got going on? Dramatic horror.

SPEAKER_04 17:01

And I think that works for it really well. Now, if we had that be the entire movie, there would be people who were upset, right? They would be like, this was not scary at all. Sure, it was tense, but we didn't deliver. And so I think we needed some sort of delivery. We needed to fulfill that promise. I think instead of 50%, we maybe should have aimed for like 20%. We should have really brought the tension to a head and then given us something that shocked us. And I don't know that that's what we got. Of course, it's not scary to me. The very concept of, you know, that whole feeling trapped in a room is not fun, of course, but it's not like I watched this and was like, ooh, I'm spooked. But on an interest level at least, I was like, okay, like it's working so far. They could have approached it a little bit differently to really capitalize on the tension they had built.

SPEAKER_01 17:44

Now you're talking about capitalizing on that payoff and that tension. And I think that's really what is significant about this movie. When you think about just the premise, right? Two women walk into a house, they have an agenda unaware that there is another agenda on the other side of the door. And I think it robs almost like the innocence of that. And there's a lot of debate that we're gonna have, I'm sure, in the second half of this movie. But what I can really appreciate is this movie's approach to it. Because how many horror movies have we seen that take this people call it elevated horror, but like the cerebral approach where it's like, okay, we're gonna go in here and we're gonna make you think this felt like a better execution of it for me. It feels within reach. It feels like it can be easily grasped. And it feels like such on honesty, like a really deft approach to this because again, with these kind of concepts, and we get into just like theological debates, etc. It's so easy to just like start laying down fact after fact, and then you lose someone in that argument. But this was so well written to be able to bring the viewer along, no matter where they stand on this, and that just feels so different for me. It also feels, and again, this is like one of the biggest things I felt watching this movie was like, oh, this is what it means to make a movie that's open to interpretation without it feeling lazy. It feels like interpretation is woven into every fiber of this movie's being, and that while not an original idea by any means, its execution and the quality of that feels distinct for me.

SPEAKER_03 19:19

Yeah, I can definitely see that. It's a fair point. And I do also think you might feel a lot of familiarities between this movie and a lot of other A24 films in general. So it's like its execution, definitely original. But you know, when I'm thinking of other A24 films that have this kind of vibe, I think films like The Lighthouse come to mind, The Killing of a Sacred Deer, those things type for some reason. Even the religious angle that this movie leans into feels familiar, right? But it's the execution like you're talking about. That's where it feels original. It's overall concept and setup, the heavy theological debates that we've been talking about, the overall intellectual tone, I think definitely makes it stand out and feel fresh.

SPEAKER_04 20:04

It did remind me of a couple things, however, it does absolutely feel fresh, but while I'm watching it, I can't get barbarian out of my head. It was like barbarian meant red state or something. Like it was just like a weird kind of marriage together in my brain and had to kind of set that aside.

SPEAKER_01 20:17

But I'm sorry, Mac, do you think all basements look alike? Is that what it is? You throw one fucking staircase in the movie, and Mac's like, I don't know, let's give him barbarian.

SPEAKER_04 20:25

No.

SPEAKER_03 20:26

That's that's that's it. I mean, I get exactly why you've got barbarian vibes. Right.

SPEAKER_01 20:31

On a deeper note, yeah, no, it makes perfect sense.

SPEAKER_04 20:34

That being said, though, it is fresh, and I think the delivery of is that the execution of it is what really makes it stand apart. We've been talking about the first half of this movie, this drama, this thriller was, I mean, it was something else. It really was something else. It reminded me of just how powerful movies were like before the 1970s, before we were starting to get into like showing everything, when you had to rely on the implication that had a lot of that power going for it. And that is so different from a lot of stuff we've gotten in 2024 and 2025.

SPEAKER_00 21:03

I would really be down for more films like this because the subject matter and making it into a horror or whatever, however we want to call this, right? Drama, horror, whatever. I I wish we had more films like this, because not to say that I don't like slashers too, but like I it seems like it's a little bit too much in the paranormal, in the slashers, like the things that each one of us like love the most about horror, we do get a lot of films like that. But do we ever really approach these kinds of nuanced, really intense subject matters and conversations and bring that into the fold? Certainly, but it almost feels like it's a subgenre at times, not the main point. So that was really cool. And although there's some aspects of this film that felt a little bit underwhelming, I do agree with you, Chris, when you're saying like there is this sense of success in leaving things to interpretation. And I felt that the most the second time around with. This ending. I felt extremely underwhelmed and was a little like, what? I felt very confused. And maybe I was biting off of my friends and their reactions and stuff. But like I said, this time around, I was by myself. And I think I really was able to sink my teeth into what was happening from beginning to end, not getting any reactions from theatergoers or my friends and their laughs with some of the funny dialogue, et cetera. I just was in a meditative state and I finally understood what I believe to be the ending or a little bit of what was being said and discussed. And it feels like it's pretty blatant. And I know for those that have seen this, you're probably thinking, like, Bianco, what? Are you telling me that you didn't get it the first time around? It's not that I didn't. I just didn't really buy into it. It didn't hit quite as much as the second time around, where I'm like, wow, that really is like a really good, interesting conclusion for something that felt a little bit underwhelming for me personally. I think it actually did stick the landing a little bit more on my rewatch.

SPEAKER_01 22:53

Yeah, I felt similarly the first time I watched this movie, and not even because of the exact ending that we get, but rather a reveal in the third act. And that just made me feel like, oh, okay, all right. I'm gonna give you this example. And not that this is exactly what happens in this movie. It's not like that. So don't take this as a spoiler. But I am a true crime fan. Like you are most likely a true crime fan. We tend to have these things in common, us horror fans. And sometimes you start falling down rabbit holes about serial killers, and you're like, oh god, that's so interesting. That's so fucking weird, etc. I had one ex-girlfriend who ruined it for me by saying, All serial killer just hate women. That's really what it comes down to. And it just took the fun out of it. Not that serial killers should be fun, but the interest or like trying to discern the conditions and the circumstances that someone is brought up with, right? The psychology of a serial killer. It all for her to just boil it down like that, it just took the wind out of the sails. And that's how I felt about this ending the first time. The ending of the movie, the final moments. I think you look at this and you have like four different potential interpretations and more. Those are just like the four that I could think of. But I'm so excited to talk about this in the spoiler zone. Not because I love it, but because of how successful it is in like just pointing it as almost like a choose your own adventure based on your belief system, you will find something different about this ending.

SPEAKER_03 24:19

I think it's a mixed bag for sure. I said it earlier. I do think it got a little bit rushed when we got towards the ending. I do feel like it it rushed itself a little bit too much. But to your point, I really do like how ambiguous it was and the way that it made you think about the resolution that we get or the lack thereof or whatever it may be, right? It leaves you thinking. And when a film leaves you thinking, I think it makes the ending fairly successful.

SPEAKER_04 24:47

I didn't realize this ending was up to interpretation when I watched it. So it's interesting to hear this conversation and to do one quick Google search to see that this is a thing that people felt that like it was ambiguous or could go one way or the other. I was like, there's only in my mind one clear way that this went, and maybe I'm just not thinking about it enough. And I'll have to think about it some more to really see both sides of it. I think leading up to the ending, however, there were some moments that felt like they dropped the ball. It really feels like they had trouble tying together story beats, and so we had some filler in there that really wasn't necessary for perhaps the meaning of the movie or the I don't know, the desires of one of the characters, perhaps. But I was like, okay, I'm I'll deal with it. It's okay, it's fun to watch anyway. But then when we finally make it to the end, I was like, all right, that's satisfying. I I know I said earlier I wished for more. I honestly wished for different, I think is what it was, but it was still a good ending. I just don't think it was like thought-provoking ambiguity because to me it just seemed to take it literally and you'll have a fine day. That's just how I took it.

SPEAKER_01 25:45

Well, it's kind of giving like uh your rating of this movie is gonna be pretty unambiguous. But before we get there, let's go ahead and break down some scoring. Sean, how would you rate the gore score?

SPEAKER_03 25:56

Well, this movie isn't really a gore-driven film, but it does use some sharp, shocking moments, I would say. But in the end, this film is far more about psychological dread and dialogue than blood and guts. So this one is mostly talk and very little bite, earning itself a low gore score.

SPEAKER_01 26:15

And what about the animal report? No heretics were seen harming animals in this film. Let's go ahead and get into our ratings. And heretic from 2024 as nominated and voted on by our patrons. Was it a hack or a slash?

SPEAKER_04 26:28

I'm gonna take uh the lead here because I think you all assumed something about me. I think this was a really fun use of tension, character building, dialogue. I was actually completely content living in that thriller level world for the first half of the movie. The second half was able to deliver some good, predictable horror punches. Things dropped off a bit when that shift happened, a little bit, right? But I was content to make it to the end. It was a good time. This is a slash.

SPEAKER_00 26:54

Yeah, so I'll start off by saying that going into this on my first watch, I really didn't even know what much about the film. I don't even think I had put two and two together that it might explore some type of religious aspect with the name heretic, because when I saw the teaser, I saw that it was two leads that were Mormon, but again, I didn't think much of it. I mean, we've had plenty of films where maybe we have some religious characters, but that's not really the main point of the film. So when I watched it with my friends, I was pleasantly surprised. I had a really good time. Again, the discussion. I love a film where you feel like you need to unpack it with your friends immediately standing out the theater. And then even on the second watch, I felt like I had a almost like a deep breath of like relief that wow, I really have to give this film more credit than I remembered. Because although I wasn't a big fan of where it was heading, I have a greater appreciation for what it was trying to do and how unique it is to horror in the last like at least five years at best, you know. I think that at the same time, sure, A24 as a production company like is always putting out some unique films, but the standout here is not only the subject matter, but it's Hugh Grant. We gotta keep saying it because I would love to see him in more horror. I think we need it. And him alone is extremely disarming. So, regardless of whether this is the kind of film for you in terms of the subject matter, maybe you're just wanting to see a horror film just to have a good time, not so much for the whole debate of it all. I think you're gonna really like his performances and feel a little intimidated because it was fantastic. There's definitely some tension here, and stakes are decently high. Now, there were certainly some moments where I had hoped that we'd get a bigger reveal. That part felt a little bit flat. But regardless, I think that there's a takeaway that everyone can have from this film. There's a lot to appreciate on a technical level with the production, with some of the stills. It's really, really pretty to watch at best. So I gotta say, it's definitely worth a watch. If you weren't that big of a fan the first time around, I strongly suggest you re-watch it again, maybe by yourself and have a good time with it. It's a great film to just throw on as well if you just want to have a decent time and see some loony guy go off. So I'd strongly recommend it because for me this was a slash.

SPEAKER_03 29:14

Yeah, I think Heretic isn't your typical run-of-the-mill horror flick, right? It's definitely feels different than what you may be used to seeing. It definitely trades those jump scares and gore for claustrophobic dread and unsettling conversations that I feel like cut pretty deep. And Hugh Grant, we've been talking about, I think Hugh Grant delivers a shockingly sinister turn in performance, which is he almost steals the spotlight as this smooth-talking villain who makes theology feel absolutely terrifying. And while the film's slow burn pace and talky setup may test your patience as a viewer, especially if you're expecting non-stop jump scares, but the payoff in this movie comes in the form of these bursts of violence and this lingering sense of unease that is developing in this film. It's not the blood-soaked spectacle of something like Evil Dead Rise, right? Or the nightmare-fueled chaos of hereditary. It's not those types of films. Instead, it's more of a cerebral type of horror experience that really sinks its hooks into faith, control, and the fragility of belief, right? And so for me, when it comes to this dark sermon that is this movie, consider it more of a revelation worth attending because this movie is preaching to the choir of horror fans, and I can, in full faith, rate this movie a slash.

SPEAKER_01 30:40

Well, far be it from me to stop a good train when it's on the tracks. This movie was a lot of fun, and it was thought-provoking fun, which I appreciate. There's a lot to dig into when we get into the spoiler zone. I know there are a lot of different things to dissect, and honestly, even in the couple re-watches I've had, I know that there's a million things that I'm missing. But Binx, I want to throw it back to a different religious horror film that we reviewed in the past. You said you walked out of the theater after watching the first omen screaming to the sky, This is why I love movies, or I love movies. I didn't scream to the sky by any means. But in a parallel, I walked out of this movie and I put it in our Discord server. I fucking love this movie. I couldn't stop thinking about it for at least three weeks, and I recommended it to just about anybody I knew of who was either increasingly devout and passionate or completely against it. Just for the kicks and giggles, I just wanted to hear the spectrum of reactions from this film. And yes, we've all been talking about Hugh Grant and how absolutely incredible he was. But I think it's truly an understatement that if you listen to this review and you're gonna like pause, maybe I'll get to it, maybe I won't. But let this fourth consecutive slash be enough to tell you this is a performance for him that you do not want to miss. And with that, Heretic from 2024, as nominated by Rob and voted on by the rest of our patrons, has earned a universal slash. Now we have so much to dig into when we get back from our break, but stick around, join us in the spoiler zone so we can dig into the interpretations of that ending. We'll see you in a bit.

SPEAKER_03 32:42

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SPEAKER_01 34:16

Welcome back, folks. You're now entering the spoiler zone for Heretic, which has earned a universal slash. Now we have so much to dig into, but before we get into all the layers of this script, Sean, let's go through those kills.

SPEAKER_03 34:29

Well, let's go through them because we don't really get a ton of kills in this movie, and some of them are only mentioned. Maybe we can talk about the nine lives of Sister Barnes because apparently it takes a lot to take this girl down. Or maybe we can get into the debate on whether we should have one final kill on this list. But I'm curious, so let's get into them. What are your thoughts? Beliefs? Which of these kills are you faithful to?

SPEAKER_00 34:55

Since it's not many options, maybe we all have the same favorite kill, and of course it's gotta be Mr. Reed. Because what a creep. He's got to go. He's got to go. He's annoying. Not annoying, maybe let me not be extreme, but like, boy, shut up. It's giving that. It's giving that a little bit. The ego was very high. He loves the sound of his own voice. It was very satisfying. Also a little weird and creepy. The crawling towards her, sir. I don't know. It felt a little wrong.

SPEAKER_01 35:26

You know, for once we don't have the same favorite kill. I know.

SPEAKER_03 35:29

And I can't on one of the shortest kill counts.

SPEAKER_01 35:34

Yeah. In a situation where Binx and I should be forced together more than ever.

SPEAKER_00 35:39

Wait, can I can I guess? Is it gonna be the E. coli Taco Bell? It is. Yeah, let's fucking go.

SPEAKER_01 35:47

My favorite kill is an off-screen kill that was mentioned and affirmed, and it is the validation of why I say fuck lettuce. It is Sister Barnes and her first death before having another death later on. And you know what? Listen, I love Taco Bell. It's a Baja blast every time I'm going. I'm not dying of E. coli, but damn, sucks to suck. Imagine going to your favorite fast food place and then you're dead.

SPEAKER_04 36:14

That's true. Actually, Listeria, I think, is the one that scares me more than E. coli these days because I feel like it's it's one that you're can't wash it out though, and that is absolutely frightening.

SPEAKER_03 36:23

Everything's got a listeria outbreak these days. It's all over.

SPEAKER_04 36:27

I don't I don't like I think that was actually a good kill to point out, and it worked inside the movie, and it felt a little, I don't know, like retro written, if you will. It felt like, hey, we gotta connect some dots, and this is a really smart way to do that. That was gonna be one of my backup kills that you both have chosen really well. There's not many to choose from. Gonna straight up say least favorite kill was the blueberry pie. Did not enjoy it. Sean, if that's your favorite, go off, but not for me. Go off in a second. I'm just gonna add to the Mr. Reed thing, though. I'm just gonna say the fact that we had the one-two punch was great. That's it. Throwing that out there.

SPEAKER_01 36:57

Mac, my only question here is it the death that is caused by the blueberry pie, or is it the death of the blueberry pie that you're upset with?

SPEAKER_04 37:06

Well, this is multiple levels here because one, don't put out a blueberry pie candle and then promise me blueberry pie and not deliver. That's just insulting on many levels. I don't care what you're gonna do afterwards. It's rude. It's rude. And also the candles don't smell like blueberry pie. Don't lie. Come on, you wouldn't be by that thing. You would be like, oh, that smell is coming from a foot in front of my face. It's fake, it smells like whatever, whatever. It's a movie. We're gonna suspend disbelief there for just a second. Maybe they don't eat blueberry pie that often. But I think the worst part about it was the smooshing of the face into the pie after the death maybe is worse. Because when you take like a chunk out with your hand and you're shoveling into your mouth, you're kind of like, I get it. It's giving me like Matilda vibes, you know, whatever. That's how you eat. I'm okay. The pie looks gross. Let's be honest, it looked pretty gross. That's what I'm saying. All right, but then it was just like, oh, we're gonna die. And I just sat there waiting. I was like, oh, her face is going into that pie, and that is going to hurt me. And then it did, and it was just gross and all over. Like, scooch out of the way, push the table a little bit when you fall, so we're not going face first into that already disgusting looking pie. I think maybe that was the worst part of that. Well, maybe puking it up later.

SPEAKER_01 38:14

I have a confession. I don't fuck with pie. I know American pie is all about that. No, I'm kidding. I really don't I don't know that I enjoy really pie. I think it's because I would only have a chocolate pie, and I've never seen a chocolate pie made that looks like this. It's usually like a chocolate cream pie. Because I don't like fruit being in things. I just like the fruit. So no, I don't like it. The thought of a blueberry pie disgusts me. It's almost as bad as the E. coli lettuce.

SPEAKER_03 38:40

I love a good pie. Just not this blueberry pie. But maybe you would like um a pumpkin pie or something, or a pumpkin cream pie.

SPEAKER_01 38:48

I don't like pumpkin flavored things either.

SPEAKER_00 38:50

I was just gonna say she doesn't like pumpkin flavored things, so that's already out the window. No, the options are.

SPEAKER_01 38:59

I like pumpkins as decor and not for food.

SPEAKER_03 39:02

All right, fair enough. Listen, actually, none of these are my favorite kill. My favorite kill is the kill that we maybe do have or don't have, and I want to get into it now. And I'm sorry if this is what's what you might want to get into later, but I want to talk about it because Sister Paxton, I think, is not on this kill count, so it's a little bit selfish of me, I guess, but there is so few to choose from. And I do think it was an interesting thing that happened because that is one of the most ambiguous things that happened in the ending of this movie. Did Sister Paxton survive? Did she actually die? Because obviously, there's the moment that she's talking about how she wants to come back as a butterfly and land on somebody's fingers, and they know that it's her, and then she escapes, and this butterfly lands on his finger on her finger. Now, that could be like Sister Barnes, right? Could be that, but it also could be that she actually never made it out, and this was all just a hallucination as she was dying inside the house.

SPEAKER_01 40:01

That is the avenue that I tend to go down. A, I think all three of them died, and in her final moments, like the rest of what we see is her hallucination and then her escape, especially because there's a shot where her phone is visible and there's still no signal. And so you there would be signal if you were out of the house. I guess some people could argue, oh, maybe the storm, maybe this, but I don't know. It's giving she never made it out of the house, which I also think is just such a shame because both of these young ladies really deserve to get out of there. It's fucking criminal. Fuck you, Hugh Grant, you son of a bitch, you were so good in this movie, but damn, I did not want you to win, and you did. Yeah, man. Oh, it was so good. But then the other thoughts are okay, maybe she is alive. Sure, if you want to be optimistic and take that route. The other idea that some have interpreted or intuited was that it's a simulation theory, and that the butterfly kind of glitches and it was never really there, and it makes you wonder if all this shit is real.

SPEAKER_03 41:01

Oh, I didn't notice a glitch.

SPEAKER_01 41:03

Yeah, well, it's like there's like a brief moment and then it's just the butterfly's gone, and it leaves some to wonder if it was ever actually there.

SPEAKER_00 41:09

But then even so then everything is a simulation, thus far, thus none none of this actually happened at all.

SPEAKER_03 41:15

But also there was the moment where the butterfly was seen in the house, and that could just be the same butterfly that was floating around in the house.

SPEAKER_01 41:22

It could have been, but also really fucking weird that there's a butterfly in the house.

SPEAKER_03 41:27

It's given silence of the lambs.

SPEAKER_01 41:29

It could have been a simulation. It's given that. Also, the entire thing, in a way, from our perspective, is a simulation because he is predicting their every single movement down to the time intervals of exactly which step they'll take based on their belief or disbelief. So there's layers.

SPEAKER_04 41:47

To counter Binx's point, if everything is a simulation and nothing matters, however, if everything is a simulation, then what does it matter, right? It all matters. It's actually real, it's just that your like level of reality is whatever. Okay, I don't want to go too far into that, but simulation is.

SPEAKER_01 42:07

I've been back and so deep in. I am so deep in. I only have one expansion pack left to buy.

SPEAKER_04 42:14

Look, I'm just saying, if you're inside Plato's cave, do you not still feel cold and warmth? Okay, it's just if you're inside the simulation, that's all you've ever known. Everything you've ever known is still real. Okay, it's just a different level of reality. But it makes me think of like inception. People love to pick apart the ending of inception. The point is, it doesn't matter. At the end of an inception, does the thing spin? Does it stop spinning? Does it wobble? It doesn't matter. He looks at his kids and he sees their faces. That's what matters at the end of Inception. And it's like this does it matter whether or not she made it out. Take it literally, it makes your life a lot easier. She's out, she's in the sunshine, she sees a butterfly for a second, thinking about what she said earlier. Does it actually happen? Who cares? You know what I mean? That's how I feel. Like she's out and she's in the sunshine. That's how I felt about it watching it.

SPEAKER_01 42:56

Mac, I really appreciate you explaining the end of Inception because I did go to see Inception and I fell asleep in the theater watching Inception, which also feels a little fucked up. Now I feel like I don't have to bother with it.

SPEAKER_00 43:09

Oh, that no, I wouldn't take it that far. That's crazy to say out loud.

SPEAKER_01 43:12

I I was very tired. I'm not saying as as a dig to the movie, but I was very tired. I had a 24-hour watch the next day. This was the only sliver of freedom I had. And instead of going to see Twilight, we saw Inception, which I regretted heavily.

SPEAKER_03 43:25

I can fall asleep in any movie, mind you. It doesn't matter how action-packed.

SPEAKER_00 43:29

This is madness. Anyways, I do want to say that I was not aware about the whole simulation thing, which the last thing I'll say about that is whose simulation is it then? Because there there is like one other character that is not within this house that interacts with these people. Whether they are purposeful or not, or should have been in the movie, is maybe something we'll discuss later. But interesting to dig then whose simulation is this? But maybe that's partisan important. What I will say is on my first watch, Sister Barbara. Laurence's kill, like I guess what we presume to be earlier kill, but then actually comes out for that final blow, almost felt a little like a gimmick. It felt like all of a sudden she came back and just has enough strength after losing that much blood to bludgeon him in the head and all this. It felt like a reach.

SPEAKER_01 44:20

Sure. Or depending again on your belief, some might view that as a miracle. Well it comes part. It comes at the tail end of Sister Pax and praying.

SPEAKER_00 44:30

Absolutely. That part is what really sank in the second time around. And maybe I sound like an idiot for not catching that the first go, but it really hit me the second time around because I was like, oh, of course, this is the whole bit. And I think that the whole miracle aspect of it felt so quick and fast. It felt like weird to me in terms of the narrative. Like Sean, you mentioned that it goes so quick that that felt like it came and went. And ultimately it was Sister Paxton brings up that she clocked a lot of the things that Mr. Reed was doing. The fact that maybe there was an entrance underneath the table that he might have switched the different people. Thus, there is no miracle. So once I had believed that right off the bat, because okay, we're again disproving a lot of things that may be perceived as miracles. I felt like, wait a minute.

SPEAKER_01 45:23

Yeah. Melissa, if the whole movie's disproving it, and then it goes, swings right back to the other side of where that pendulum swings, right back to being religious belief, a miracle. Let's also cue. Is it the Prince of Egypt? There can be miracles when you believe. Classic fucking movie. Great soundtrack. Good shit. But that's also not something that I even expected being said. I thought your umbrage was going to be more towards like the butterfly. Was she actually dead or was she actually alive? I thought that's what you're referencing.

SPEAKER_00 45:57

No, I think that when it comes to that particular part, I'm more like of a believer in that it was Sister Barnes coming back and proving that there is life after. Because I think that that's really the the main point of this film. One of the directors had just lost a family member to cancer right before. And so I think when we think of the afterlife, it's still all up in the air. It was obviously a big point in the moment when he was trying to prove some miracle with this prophet. And it reminds me a little bit of Martyrs, this French film that is really exploring that. It's a very gruesome French horror, so you can only imagine. But films that really explore the afterlife and everyone wanting to know what it's like on the other side is very interesting and compelling because it's the great one of the greatest mysteries that we'll never really get a true answer to, right? So I just took it at face value. That was Sister Barnes coming back, a nod to the fact that Sister Paxson had said she'd want to come back as a butterfly. Again, like a little bit of an homage and care for her. I hadn't really even considered that maybe she hadn't made it out alive or the simulation part. That's very interesting.

SPEAKER_01 47:05

Or that she was a butterfly all along. Oh crazy. I'm a beautiful butterfly. Yeah. I also just I want to highlight something here. And we're talking about like Sister Pax and Sister Barnes and just like the homage and just like who they are as people. The best foundation that this movie has is its script. And I know that is true for so many movies, but also sometimes we have movies where like the script is pretty minimal, and it feels like the actors are really elevating it and making it something else. The director is making it something else. But the foundation upon which this movie is built is just absolutely incredible. And to know that they spent a the perspective writing this from a place of pain, but then also to just be so methodical and careful to research every aspect of this to make sure that everything that they presented as an argument could be open for interpretation multiple ways without being just completely blatantly wrong, right? Everything is subjective. There's a brilliant note here, and I didn't really pay attention to it the first time. I thought it was just comedy. I thought it was just a hilarious way to introduce the movie. But we have the entire Magnum Condom conversation. And it's such a great parallel and a precursor for everything else that follows in the movie. Because the idea of this movie is people debating what's true and really carrying on the faith of what they're asked to believe or what they're just told by someone else. Iterations of messaging. You trying to fucking play the game of telephone, your shit's changing real quick. I probably I can't I think I can't say something to one additional person without that message getting misconstrued. But in the beginning of the movie, we have Sister Paxton, Sister Barnes, and they are talking about magnum condoms, and one of them comes from the place of, oh yeah, no, my sister did this, and her husband had a big peen, whatever. Then to Sister Paxton talking about the porn that she watched, and just like thinking about what she's heard about this from a marketing perspective. So their entire belief system are based on their experiences and what they've lived so far or haven't lived so far, but what they've been told. I just thought like that layer, that touch, oh, so fucking good.

SPEAKER_03 49:26

Yeah. It's something you can't really, I feel like, appreciate the first time you watch this movie. It's like really when you and maybe you can and whatever, but I feel like when you watch it for the first time, you hear that dialogue, it's more funny than anything, and then you get into the movie because you're not really knowing what to expect and how this movie's gonna play out. But on your second watch, maybe your third watch or whatever, you start to like really take a little bit more from what this film is really doing. And I agree, the script is really good, but I want to talk about something else, like a different part of the foundation of this movie. And Binks, you probably mentioned it, I think, earlier, which is the set design, but specifically this fucking house, because this house was a fucking trip. The way this house looks, the shapes, the angles, its maze-like layout and oppressive interiors help to really reinforce the claustrophobic feeling, that feeling of entrapment. You get that just by like sitting in this house. And I know I've said this before about like houses in horror movies, but it really does almost feel like its own character within this movie. So I gotta give it credit, but what they were able to do with the set design.

SPEAKER_00 50:33

Absolutely. That also was one of my favorite things because again, I hadn't really put two and two together about what this film could be. I remember the poster having like a maze, literally a maze and two little wooden figures. And so I thought that this movie was going to be literally these two girls going through some crazy ass maze. I don't know, uh that's what I thought. And maybe something not quite like Saw, but something adjacent to it where it wouldn't be as extreme. But I don't know. I saw a maze and I thought maybe that's his whole bit. Didn't think it was gonna be anything religious. But although that's not quite what we got, the house was still giving maze. I agree. There was like really odd shapes. The walk to this house was crazy. I would have been winded as all hell. One staircase and I would have been like right back down there. They were crazy committed to lift their bikes all the way up there, too. You know what? They made their choices. One particular moment I loved was the dark hallway and the figure that you see. Because as a Catholic, okay, we all probably can relate to this. Everyone knows a friend, if it isn't your own home growing up, where you've got the life-size sanglasero, okay? Saint Lazarus, he's a big one, he's very tall. And some people, at least in Miami, they have it in their house. And you go through a dark hallway, and you when you see that big boy, like you can't help but get a little bit scared. Yeah. And I thought that's the first thought that came to my mind when I saw that particular scene because it's very creepy. You think it might actually be someone, I don't know. I felt like the use of light was brilliant, and that particular moment felt like I related to it deeply.

SPEAKER_01 52:14

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 52:14

1000%.

SPEAKER_01 52:15

We are built different because your folks have a Saint Lazarus statue life size in their place, and I am eyeballing that Art the Cloud Animatronic from Spirit Halloween.

SPEAKER_03 52:27

You're gonna have that just chilling up in your life.

SPEAKER_01 52:29

Legitimately, I want it right here next to my knife mirror. That's where I really want it. Yeah, 100%. I mean, it has to be in this office. It'd be a little bit weird now. If people are out here with a Saint statue in their hallways, then maybe it's not as weird as I thought.

SPEAKER_04 52:43

The set design and set dressing, as you all mentioned, are just stellar. I think there's like a feeling that this house gives you, and not even just the religious aspects to it, but like every little detail as they're moving in and out makes it feel old, and something about that makes it feel creepy. The timers, they feel like real timers that you would see in a house from like 80 years ago or something. Maybe not for the lights, maybe for like the kitchen or something, but a hot tub, sure. It has that feeling of this worked really well for when they first made it. And now it just seems like it's gonna break at any moment. Seems like there's mercury involved somewhere in here. I don't know what's going on, but I don't like it. But I gotta give some credit though to cinematography. Normally, I don't like doing super crazy stuff here, but there's something going on with like the focal length and our ability to maneuver there, and we're like changing how a room looks while we're still in that room. That room with the altar, it is so strangely laid out. But somehow they have these shots where it looks like it's just a flat wall, and others where it looks curved, and others where it looks angled, and it gives you this kind of it reminded me of Labyrinth where there's like the two doors and you have to make the choices and everything. Remind me of that a lot. But like somehow they're able to merge it in between shots and split it apart in others, and it was super effective. There's shots in the dark that are really effective looking up the stairs and other ones, looking down, where if I look down a set of stairs and I can't see anything, I'm not going down those stairs, first of all. That's just against the rules. But they were able to take advantage of the lighting in a lot of situations and do some really cool camera work that didn't make me sick. And I heavily appreciate that.

SPEAKER_01 54:22

You know, I'm thinking back to the camera work that happens right before my favorite scene, and that is when they're spinning and revealing things to the characters before we see it for ourselves. I thought that was so freaking great. Well, especially when we have that with the blueberry pie candle where she's turning it, the camera then adopts to twist with it. We see her reaction, and then we're shown the blueberry pie candle. So good.

SPEAKER_03 54:48

Blueberry pie. It was so good.

SPEAKER_01 54:50

And I think it actually really set up well what came next, which is Sister Barnes, Sister Paxton trying to find a way out of the house, like they're really concerned about it. But then we get into what quickly became my favorite scene in the movie, and I think even just looking back, like this is the moment that I've thought about when I've recommended it to so many people, and that is the Monopoly, the landlord's game. Yeah, I love this scene so much because I can deeply appreciate the simplification of a message. Okay, I'm here for it. I love how well this man communicates, and to A, and level the playing field and set the front the framework of what the argument is gonna be, but then to go and just show so many different analogies for comparison to really define what iteration is, and he is just taking these analogies and these metaphors, and he's just holding up one, going to the other, holding up one, going to the other. And if it wasn't for this movie, I wouldn't have known that you know what this shitty game that I don't even like, Monopoly. I've always been mad at it because I'm bad at math and bad at money. That it was made by a woman. What?

SPEAKER_03 56:04

There you go, it was stolen from her, but never given real credit, though.

SPEAKER_01 56:08

Yeah, you know what? Thank you, Hugh Grant. You've shown us all.

SPEAKER_03 56:11

I knew that the Monopoly scene was gonna be almost everyone's favorite scene. I'm sure a lot of people are gonna remember the Monopoly scene the most, and that is arguably one of the best scenes in the movie, but even to go a step further of that scene, because I'm a music guy, it's the whole plagiarism rant that he goes into, and it's specifically just going further with that debate of the different renditions of the same source material, and this is all actually true, folks. Like the Hollies, when he plays The Air That I Breathe and goes on the rant that the Hollies sued Radiohead for their song Creep ripping off the air that I breathe, that actually did happen. And Radiohead did have to pay the Hollies royalties, like they did have to give credit, songwriting credit to the Hollies, and give them royalties off of that song. And then to go even further, which I think is absolutely absurd and hilarious, that Radiohead tried to sue Lana Del Rey for her song Get Free Sounding Like Creep, which is the song that they ripped off from the Hollies. I don't think it worked out as well for Radiohead as it did for the Hollies, but like what a great fucking piece of dialogue.

SPEAKER_01 57:22

You know what that is? And this is what I love hurt people hurting people. That's Radiohead not breaking generational trauma and generational curses. That's what it is. It's like, well, it happened to me. Yes, it's gotta happen to you. You can't have free college because I didn't have free college.

SPEAKER_03 57:40

So true. But did I listen to the air that I breathe after watching this movie? Yes, I fucking did. 100%.

SPEAKER_00 57:46

Of course. But it's a the OG. No, I've gotta say that scene is, of course, it's gonna be everyone's favorite because it felt like an incredible clap back. However, to an extent, it's not like it was the first time I've heard that conversation and approach. So when I was saying earlier about if you have partaken in these kinds of conversations, or you certainly grew up going to private school that it's like bash against your head, you're almost taught to an extent like how to combat that kind of rhetoric. However, it's been a while. So for me, it was the way that Hugh Grant delivers it. It's the sass that he gives and the humor that he gives that really did it for me. Because maybe not so much the material, but the way that he delivers these lines is incredible. So, yes, this also, of course, was my favorite scene, but I want to say more in particular because we're all like nitpicking certain moments. But when he did the Jar Jar Binks, yes, when he did the Jar Jar Binks reference, I was cracking up. My friends were losing it. Now, I'm not named Binks because of Jar Jar Binks folks. Sorry to break it to any Star Wars fans. It's from Hocus Pocus, actually. However, yes, I do get called Jar Jar Binks, especially growing up, like whatever. But I appreciated it greatly. I really did. It was fucking hilarious.

SPEAKER_01 59:08

I also love the moment where he's going through a Monopoly game. He's like, I won't tell you which one's my favorite. Meow.

SPEAKER_04 59:13

His delivery of the whole thing was just like so next level. It didn't belong to this movie. It was above and beyond the rest of this film. It was so good. And I think it's crazy that we that this is your favorite. And as you mentioned, Binks, it makes sense, but like this was also my favorite, but for different reasons. And I think you enjoyed the simplification, his ability to translate. I enjoyed that this told us so much about his character. It it really shows us that he thinks he is smarter, that he thinks he is more enlightened. And that's what read to me is like those people are on YouTube trying to convince you that pyramids are built by aliens, because there's people who have the same conversations about religions just all being based off of previous religions, and none of it's actually real because there's all these parallels. And sometimes there's just parallels, and sometimes there's something inherent to humanity that causes those parallels. Doesn't matter. Point being, that whole monologue for a minute there was like, oh, I'm thinking to myself, is this the filmmakers trying to get an idea through? Are they just they like really don't like people who belong to LDS or something? But no, this was showing us, I think, personally, I think, that Mr. Reed just truly believes he is better. And I think I felt bad about it afterwards because I'm like, I don't know, maybe not. And then we get to the end of the movie, of course, and we discover his motivation. I was like, oh yeah, that's 100% what it was. He just a hundred percent thinks that he is smarter and more enlightened than everyone else, and it's his job to prove them wrong so that he can gain control over them and they can respect that he is the smartest, most enlightened person in the world. But I loved it. Like his delivery of it was fantastic, but I thought that it read more into who Mr. Reed is than it was educational, at least. Because I think it is surface level for a lot of people, it's a little bit oversimplifying for a lot of people. Not all of it is always true, whatever, it doesn't matter. But I think it was just like so well delivered that it was a delight. It was an absolute delight to watch that thing unfold. And then when we get like the wall of pictures, the statues, everything going together, and we pan around the room and see how many other things are tucked away into little crevices. This is what we're talking about. That set and that set dressing and all of it going together, just being next level. This was like somebody really did their homework here 100%.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:18

Yeah, 10 years of homework. Once again, I just kind of give credit to these guys because listen, I've I'm thinking about the parallels. John Carpenter banged out Halloween 2 with a six-pack of beard. These guys are on your spending 10 years credit where credit's due, and also you know, invest the amount of time that is reasonable for the output. He didn't really want to make Halloween 2. But I just love that. It's good. Again, this is the stuff that makes me love movies. And I think a lot of that goes into Hugh Grant's character, right? We see just A, he was chosen for this role, they couldn't see anyone else in it, and he weaponizes his charm so well. I cannot imagine anyone else in this role or having the same effect because we have all fallen in love with Hugh Grant his entire career. And then this is the moment where he begins the movie, he has a watering can in his hand when he meets them, and then all of a sudden you reveal at the end of the movie what that watering can is for. And he is a completely different person. What starts out as smart, unassuming, then gets into a little bit more pushy, then gets into the reveal of this desire for control. Oh my gosh, his performance in here, all of them, even Topher Grace showing up and doing literally fucking nothing in this movie. All of them. Stellar.

SPEAKER_03 1:02:42

It is pretty wild. I know we've mentioned, and we're probably gonna keep all of us are gonna take turns talking about how surprisingly great Hugh Grant's performance was in this movie. And then Hugh Grant obviously there was an interview with him where he said he was tired of being typecasted and wanted to do something different, which ultimately led to him doing this movie. But also, this you're saying it took him 10 years to write this movie. He also spent a long time like going back and forth with the directors, like about his character before he actually committed to the character. And man, what a strong performance it really was because it really was Mr. Reed really was such a dominating performance. He is this charismatic, manipulative villain in this movie, and he's really balancing that charm with the menace and delivering really such that compelling performance that we're talking about, but a piece of the Monopoly scene with the meow, right? And then there's also like a scene uh on this where he did a lot of improvising, he improvised key moments to help keep Sophie Thatcher and Chloe East engaged in the scenes, which I thought was really fucking cool. You can read all about it, and it's when he mispronounced Angel Moroni's name, and which caused Chloe East to, as Sister Paxton, to improvise correcting him. So, like this was something he purposely did to try to bring more out of everyone, which I think just when you're there to help others do more, it makes the whole whatever you're doing feel better and it makes a better product. So you just gotta give it up, like all across the board, like fantastic job.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:26

You know, I want to highlight actually Sister Paxton because I felt like she was an interesting character arc that the second time around I felt like I really was buying into initially when I like first watched it. I was like, so the naive, innocent, pure-hearted girl suddenly is Nancy Drew and clocks everything left and right. That's kind of bizarre. That seems like a little bit of a reach. Maybe I was a smid cynical the first watch. Second time around, I was like, this is actually interesting because it just goes to show that maybe people who are very devout aren't as naive as some may seem or perceive them, right? Those that don't believe perceive those that are very devout as ridiculous or naive or silly, maybe nonsensical. And she was an interesting approach of, no, I'm very much doing the math. I'm watching, I'm very analytical, I see what you're doing. I can still be both. I can still be scared and be kind-hearted and have the best intentions or hope that you have the best intentions. But I'm also trying to make sense of certain things left and right. Now, maybe it was a little bit of a reach still, but the second time around, it was definitely more palatable. Sister Barnes and Sister Paxson are like great antithesis to each other because, like you said earlier, Chris, about how there are different sets of Belief systems and how they got to that point, different approaches to something that I think me personally, I'm not very familiar with LDS at all. So it was very interesting, also from the fact that the actresses themselves were ex-Mormons. So I think that adds a very cool dynamic to it, right? But I like that they're very different. I guess I just didn't expect that Sister Paxton was going to be the one that would last longer when Sister Barnes was out so early, we presume to be so early on. I was very thrown back by that.

SPEAKER_03 1:06:31

I think it's because unfortunately these characters were, I think, slightly underdeveloped, just a little bit. Like I don't think it ruined the movie by any means. I think they still had strong performances, but from a character standpoint, maybe maybe it was intentional. I don't know. Who am I to say? I think they were maybe a little bit underdeveloped, but yeah, you gotta recognize them both, I think, because they're the innocence that they brought, the curiosity that they brought, the vulnerability that they brought, I think it really helped to ground the story emotionally and provide this strong counterpoint to Reed's manipulation. So, like, they there definitely was this purpose there. But I did I do agree with you, Binks. I think Sister Paxton coming out of left field at the end and just like calling him out on all of his bullshit and how observational she was and just picked up on everything, but like didn't really showcase it throughout the first part of the movie. And but again, maybe that's the point. Who knows?

SPEAKER_01 1:07:26

Yeah, I don't know. I saw that more as like her evolution and her growth because of Sister Barnes. Because you just think about Sister Barnes, a her mother converted into this religion, so she's had a lot of life experiences before ever even getting to this point. Whereas Sister Paxton has been brought up in this her entire life. And even in the beginning, where she's talking about watching porn and just like she's taking this very seriously, but she's also in a place where I think she's not quite as I wouldn't say not by any means like undevout, but she is not naive or at least as naive as we're initially led to believe. Because even then, like she's trying to play the role of like a more like submissive person, like she's complimenting him as they're leaving because she thinks that's gonna be the way to kind of appeal to his ego. She and Sister Barnes just have completely different approaches to things, but she was also clocking things from the very beginning. Hey, choose the right path. Let's just go into disbelief, let's try to find this way out.

SPEAKER_02 1:08:31

Right.

SPEAKER_01 1:08:31

So I think there's a lot there that we just didn't see initially or really hone in on because we're also distracted by Sister Barnes being the stronger personality between the two of them.

SPEAKER_03 1:08:45

That's a fair point for sure.

SPEAKER_04 1:08:46

It did throw me off though, because for Sister Barnes to be taken down, it felt weird. It felt like she was like she was the main character of this film, and then suddenly she wasn't. And that seemed like a strange choice or delivered in a strange way. And I was like, maybe this is on purpose. They're trying to subvert expectations. Anytime anybody tries to do that, though, it usually fails in my brain. And so I like I stumbled, I think, when we got to that moment where I was like, I don't know where they're gonna take this. Like that seems that seems weird.

SPEAKER_01 1:09:16

Casey Becker, she was the true berrymore of this movie, except she made it way longer into this movie. But here's why, Mac is because she would have been harder to control, she didn't play in to his uh his ideal of just preying upon vulnerable religious women, right? She was giving it to him every step.

SPEAKER_03 1:09:38

Challenging him the whole way, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:09:40

She definitely played a part in that.

SPEAKER_03 1:09:42

You know, outside of the character for Sister Barnes, I also have to give it up for Sophie Thatcher for singing knocking on Heaven's Door in the credits because that is an incredible cover. And when I first watched this movie and I heard the credits roll, I was like, wow, I really love this cover. Who fucking sings this song? Lo and fucking behold, it was Sophie Thatcher.

SPEAKER_00 1:10:02

And she s sounds exactly like Hope Sandoval. I didn't realize that it was to the tune of Fade Into You, but it's crazy.

SPEAKER_03 1:10:10

It is funny for the theme of the movie, too, though.

SPEAKER_04 1:10:12

I'm curious if Sister Paxton was named after Bill Paxton, who starred in Big Love. Is that kind of is that just me connecting dots that aren't supposed to be connected? Because the entire time anytime I hear Paxton, that's all I'd think of as Bill Paxton.

SPEAKER_00 1:10:26

Oh, no, certainly. Absolutely. But I didn't even think about Big Love.

SPEAKER_03 1:10:30

I'm with you. I just instantly think Bill Paxton as well. But I gotta tell you, I really don't have a lot of bad things to say about this movie. I guess when we look at what maybe the first half of the movie was able to do to really build the tension and the unease and then get to the ending where it felt like we didn't get as strong of a payoff as maybe we were expecting in some ways. I think if I had to find something, because you know, we we all slash this movie, so we're all gonna have to find something that we didn't like about this movie. And I guess that would be it. Like, I I guess they could have done something to give us more of a payoff. It's a tough one. It really is a tough one.

SPEAKER_01 1:11:06

Yeah, here's where I I struggle with this movie. I really love it. I really enjoyed it. I also really enjoy the ending, and I think there's a lot of payoff here and a lot to pick up on when you re-watch it. But I struggle with two small parts of this. One, I really wish he hadn't turned to physical violence. I really wish this would have been more of a capture situation because I felt like he was the most menacing, the most terrifying when the terror was in his ideas and his words and the circumstances that he puts them in. And honestly, if that's that for the whole movie, what is it gonna be? Nothing good, right? So I I get that it had to happen, but when it did happen, I was like, I liked you better when you were just really smart and intimidating. I don't know. But the other side of this kind of goes back to Binks what you and I were discussing earlier, which is of course he has women in cages. Of course. I was yep. Yeah, of course. Again, there are points to be made, but none of those points should lead you to having women caged up in your fucking house, sir. Yes. Like do I personally believe that religion exists as a form of control over a lot of people? Yes. Do I also believe that a lot of people subscribe and want to believe in something bigger than themselves as a sense of comfort and peace without wanting to feel like they're controlled? Yes. Do I feel like there are organizations and people who take advantage of people who just want to believe in something and are choosing to live their life in a way that they feel is accordance with a set of values that they hold dear, that they associate with this religion? Yes, people fucking prey on people. And really what this movie boils down to is the reality that no matter what the fuck you got going on, I'm gonna say like some man is at the center of it, some person, some human is at the center and they are fucking corrupt. And that's really what it comes down to.

SPEAKER_00 1:13:04

I man, yes, a thousand percent. So here's my struggle because it's like when he reveals control, I felt like the wind was taken out of my body. It was out of the sails, it was completely gone, and I was left with no shit, bro. That's like the same sentiment that at both times, though, maybe less angrily than the first time. But it felt a little underwhelming because that's very clear. Anyone that knows anything about religion knows that that's a whole bit, right? To some extent. And what feels odd is that he makes it a point. This maybe I'm projecting a little bit because I am a woman, but it seemed like he was making it a point that this is specific to women because ultimately the only people that I'm seeing in these cages are women. And I'm not trying to make this about whatever, you know, like feminist type stuff. I'm just saying, like there are missionaries that are men. They're usually the leaders of a lot of these religions. They are the biggest ones that are like advocating for the spread of their gospel, etc. They are also susceptible to control. There are plenty of men that have been victims to religion. So I feel like they also could have been a victim to Mr. Reed. Felt a little odd to make it just about women again, because that's already like that that specific part felt a smidge unoriginal to me personally. It felt like we were going back to maybe a different a separate discussion that doesn't stay centered in the religion topic just a bit. And I felt that a little bit more so with Elder Kennedy actually, because if I wanted to pick maybe a slightly other worse part, it's Elder Kennedy mostly because brother, why were you even in this movie? Like, what was the point of view? Were you like a cameo? Do you know the director? I don't understand. Like, why are you here? So for Grace, listen, love ya. But you it's a little odd that you're here when the whole bit was you just knocking on doors just to make it clear that you're putting religion first, you know. Well, I'm here, might as well just give you the pamphlet. Like, very dismissive of these women. I get it, but we didn't really need that, I don't think.

SPEAKER_01 1:15:16

But is that exactly the point? Is it to show that? Is it to show his perspective on how he views religion as a means to oppress women and men they end up oblivious? This man went out with the intention, the good intention of looking for these girls and missed the signs that were right in front of him. And you hope for something different, but he didn't. He didn't get anywhere different. And again, that's where I struggle, right? Because it's the worst part of the movie for me, but also like I get it. But also, fuck, man, don't have women in cages, Hugh Grant.

SPEAKER_04 1:15:51

Come on. I don't think he personally does.

SPEAKER_01 1:15:54

I know, but like still.

SPEAKER_04 1:15:56

See, I have a very very different worst part here, and that's the whole segment of the supposed miracle, and then that weird patch together simulation theory tangent. And we know that the character was trying to cover for a mistake or something missed. To me, though, it seemed like the filmmakers didn't really know how to tie some pieces together, like the beats weren't exactly beating in sync, and so they needed to patch that up a little bit. And I feel like we could have done without it for the character's point to be made to the other characters. I think for Mr. Reed to really drive home what he was after, we didn't need it. It was weird. And for him to cut open her arm and look for the birth control thing, I was like, that is also weird. He's just going in there on the fly, look, how do I fix this? Why would you look for that little piece? That's she's not gonna buy that. She's not like 12. That's just it's strange. And he was perhaps the character was believing in her naivete, and that's why he thought she might buy it. And he didn't realize that she's not, again, 12 years old. But I don't know, that whole segment to me was just really strange. At the beginning, I was so ready for them to take this to a supernatural level. I was like, oh, this is where we're gonna head. This is some kind of big cult of Dagon. That would be a fun one to bring back. Let's do it. But no, we're not. We're putting on a show. Okay, I'm here for it. Does he have an accomplice? No accomplice. Instead, he's got these captive women that he somehow convinces to do this for the sake of capturing other women so that he can ultimately just kill people. So it really, to me, like this whole thing, his whole diatribe was just like a way of explaining to others why he's a serial killer. And I feel like that's too many steps. And so it seemed kind of strained by that point. Like believability was gone a bit.

SPEAKER_01 1:17:42

Yeah, sir. You worked really hard to get to the same end that we all get to when playing The Sims, which is just creating a basement and putting a bunch of people in there and then deleting all the doors. Like, we all do it. You didn't have to trap these two women in here and make them go through a whole lecture. It was unnecessary. I think I am gonna like recreate this in the Sims tonight, though.

SPEAKER_02 1:18:01

Oh my gosh.

SPEAKER_00 1:18:03

I might. I might. Have them just play chess, build up that logic skill till it maxes out to no end, just like just deathbite chess in a basement.

SPEAKER_01 1:18:11

Something you gotta know about me is that I am a dirty cheater in The Sims. I don't I fucking do max logic, max this, max money. Listen, life is hard enough. All right, if we're in a simulation, fuck this simulation. Because if I'm playing The Sims, I don't wanna have to struggle for money in the Sims like I do in real life. I don't want to struggle for scale like I do in real life. I just want to buy good shit, do cool things, and you know, woo-hoo. But I will say this I do want to watch this movie again and again and again. I'm gonna continue doing it because as we're having our conversation about the women in the cages, I just was struck with this reminder of the scene in which he says, I've never had a Wendy. And it makes me realize he's probably saying he's never had a Wendy down in that cage.

SPEAKER_03 1:19:04

That's exactly what he's saying.

SPEAKER_01 1:19:05

It's like Mumbo number five, but no Wendy.

SPEAKER_03 1:19:08

No Wendy, definitely not. Damn. I mean, I would watch this one again too. I've already watched this one twice, just like a lot of us here, and I enjoyed it just as much as I did the first time around. So I'm definitely gonna watch it again. Is it a movie that I feel like I have to watch every year or even maybe own? Probably not, but it is a good movie, and I definitely would not be mad if I found myself watching it again. So it'll happen.

SPEAKER_00 1:19:32

Yeah, certainly. I think this is a great one to throw on if you just want to like just have something passing at the very least. Maybe if you are with a big group of friends and you just want to stir the pot, why not throw it on? Could be a good time. I definitely would re-watch this again. Also because the small scene where Sister Paxton is going through the best fast food chains. I know we just spoke about that in B-sides, but man, that alone. I'm gonna like think about that, write it down, and see where my own ranking goes from time to time, because she was like delivering those fast food chains. Like she knew them like the back of her hand. It was really impressive.

SPEAKER_04 1:20:11

And this is tough for me to respond in in kind because I think I don't know that I would watch it again, knowing exactly what happens here. I don't think it's going to like change my interpretation of the ending to see it again as one of those that like once you've seen it, it's not that there's a twist that's been spoiled, but like once you've experienced it, you know everything that happens. Maybe if I get to a point where I forget it all, then I'd be down to relive it. But it's gonna be hard for me to go into it and not pick it apart more, I think. Perhaps I could enjoy all the parts that I really do enjoy and like just leave it at that. Maybe that's what I would get out of a rewatch.

SPEAKER_01 1:20:44

Okay, so you're gonna watch clips of this movie on YouTube, is what you're saying.

SPEAKER_04 1:20:48

That actually would be a good way to re-enjoy this movie for me.

SPEAKER_01 1:20:52

Oh, fantastic. Hey, at least we can all align that in some way. We're gonna re-watch it. But for now, there you have it, folks. Heretic from 2024, as chosen by our patrons, has earned a universal slash. Now, we've certainly had a robust discussion here, but the conversation doesn't end here by any means. We're just getting started.

SPEAKER_03 1:21:11

That's right. If you want to find out how you can go further than this episode, consider supporting the show and becoming one of our disciples. You can show your faith by visiting patreon.com/slash hackerslash. This is where you can enjoy even more of the show, including bonus content with early access, extended episodes with our B sides, movie nominations, and live shows.

SPEAKER_01 1:21:31

We'll see you next time, folks. And remember, religion is just a system of control.

SPEAKER_03 1:21:36

Are we talking about religion or board games or music?