Pride 2022: Understanding Camp in Horror feat. Vardaan Arora

SPEAKER_00 0:07

Greetings and salutations and welcome to another bonus episode of Hacker Slash. If you're new around here, my name is Chris. I'm your friendly neighborhood slasher enthusiast, and this week I am joined by the Scream Queen Paris.

SPEAKER_03 0:18

Hi again.

SPEAKER_00 0:19

Two years ago, Paris and I released our first ever Pride Month special, which unpacked the evolution of LGBTQIA plus representation in horror. This year we're reflecting on the genre through a different lens, though. And we're also joined by a multi-talented guest who has made his name as a recording artist, songwriter, and actor. Listeners of our show, though, will recognize him, of course, from his role in the 2021 remake of Wrong Turn. Welcome to the party, Mardon Aurora.

SPEAKER_02 0:45

Thank you so so much for having me. This has actually been like a bucket list item for me to go on a on a horror podcast. So you're kind of making my my dreams come true. So thank you for that. Aww.

SPEAKER_00 0:55

Oh my gosh, what an honor and a privilege. First off, I am thrilled to know that we are fulfilling someone's bucket list. That's fantastic.

SPEAKER_03 1:02

The fact that you haven't been on a horror podcast at this point, upsetting.

SPEAKER_02 1:06

I mean, I'm actually a little bit shocked no one asked me. I'm not gonna lie. Like, what? Why? Like, what do I have to do? You know, no. Um, but no, I truly am really grateful to I've been excited about this because I feel like we talked about it a couple times like over the last few months. We're like, yeah, we should do something. So I'm glad that this is finally happening. Absolutely.

SPEAKER_03 1:22

Fardan, I'm so excited to have you here. I have truly been waiting for this moment ever since we watched The Wrong Turn Reboot starring you. You are the main character of that film, as far as I'm concerned. I don't really remember anything else that happened in it. But you get that iconic first kill scene. And I just want to know, what is it like being the Drew Barrymore of The Wrong Turn reboot?

SPEAKER_02 1:40

It's funny you say that because um, while we were filming it, there were so many conversations I had um with our director. His name's Mike P. Nelson, phenomenal. This is the, you know, the first film that I'd ever worked on, and I was just so lucky that it happened to be a horror film. And then I was even luckier that the director was just super, super cool and also a fan of the genre. When I read the script, I was so grateful that I was first kill. I just feel like first kill is in most horror films, it's just like the most iconic, most memorable kill, right?

SPEAKER_01 2:09

Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_02 2:10

Oh yeah. And then when the film finally came out, there was this like divide almost. And also I wasn't used to like seeing so much online discourse about a project that I'd worked on on like such a such a big scale. So there were a lot of queer people who were upset that they killed a queer character first. And that was a little shocking to me because I was just mostly excited to die first. Yeah. And it it was just weird to see the discourse happen like in real time. And I definitely made the mistake of like going online and like reading tweets and reading comments, and it was honestly just like a quick exercise and just learning to never do that again in the future.

SPEAKER_00 2:46

Oh, fantastic. Growth has come from this.

SPEAKER_02 2:49

I know. I mean, I not I'm not gonna say that it was a mistake, because like obviously it's your first film that you've ever worked on, you are excited to see what people are saying about it, right? And you also do have the advantage of being a little bit removed from it, because like I didn't write it, you know, I didn't direct it, and I I was just, you know, someone who helped tell that story. Uh so I was able to look at it kind of objectively. So I did see, you know, I did agree with a lot of takes, I disagreed with a lot of takes, but it was just weird to see how many people had so many opinions on something that I had been a part of from the inside. It was just fascinating.

SPEAKER_03 3:22

I bet it was. And honestly, like I can see both sides. I think it would have been fun to see more of you in that movie. But if you're gonna die, like that's the way to die. That was so iconic. That's the one you remember most.

SPEAKER_02 3:33

Yeah, and I I mean, I I just there are people out there, there's so many people who reached out to me after this movie came out, being like, We wish you were in it longer, which is like the biggest compliment that anyone could give you.

SPEAKER_03 3:43

That's good. Keep them wanting more.

SPEAKER_02 3:45

I mean, I had a short stint in that film, so I'm glad that it still made an impact. But I was also kind of like, at times, people would be like mad being like, Why weren't you in it longer? And I'd be like, I didn't I that's not up to me. I was like, you and me both like we both wanted me to be in it. But all things said and done, I was really, really happy with the impact that that death scene made because it it was really cool to have that character's death kind of move the plot forward. Because I I didn't think that the death was unnecessary or gratuitous, I think that it helped and there was like an emotional reaction to it. And because it was the first death, I think all the other characters sort of had to take their time and react to it in a way that we don't often get to see in horror films. People just move on so quickly. So I thought that aspect of it was really cool.

SPEAKER_00 4:29

Yeah, there certainly was a great measure of grief involved with your character's death, and particularly when you look at the amount of love that was palpable between you and your partner, to know that your death came at a point where things were largely fine throughout the plot. You were spared the horrors of what was to come in the rest of that movie. And I can only imagine that, hey, with a showstopping kill like that, I found that kill to be almost like a little bit of peace. Like almost like, I mean, if you had to go, you might as well go first and you might as well be spared from everything else that's to come.

SPEAKER_02 5:02

Yeah, like just like the universe giving you a mercy killing or something. There is debate about whether that the ki the character dying was murder or not. That's open to interpretation because the whole plot of the film is that these characters go to the woods and then they get taken by this community that lives in in the woods, right? Which side note, I've read things about stuff like that happening, so it's not that removed from reality. Yeah. But the log falls, and then my character gets crushed by the log, and there's debate about whether someone pushed that log down the hill or or if it just happened to fall. So that's uh open to interpretation, so we never really get answers to that, but I almost kind of like that it's just open to interpretation because the the moral dilemma is a huge theme in the film. It's like who are the real bad guys here, you know?

SPEAKER_03 5:51

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 5:51

One of the most exciting things about working on this project was the fact that I was actually able to scream my ass off. I don't know if you go back and watch the movie, not a lot of the characters get to scream before their deaths. And I talked to the director about how important it was for me to scream. Just because like being a scream queen, it was just again an item on my bucket list, just growing up as a fan of horror.

SPEAKER_03 6:16

Oh yeah.

SPEAKER_02 6:16

And men don't really get to do that.

SPEAKER_03 6:18

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 6:19

It used to be a thing, I think, in like the 60s and 70s, and like those horror films where men were able to scream, but since the aughts, I feel like it's been, or since the 90s maybe, I feel like it's been rare to because you know, masculinity became this whole thing, and it is like men didn't scream in horror films anymore. Um, and that's why I felt so lucky that this character was queer. I just felt like, you know, like I was able to have well, I wasn't the final girl, but I was able to have a final girl moment, you know? Yeah. Just like that scream right before the the the kill.

SPEAKER_00 6:46

So oh, I absolutely love that. Especially, I mean, even looking back to Paris, the the Pride episode that we had a couple years ago that talked about a nightmare on Elm Street 2, we had the final guy, and the amount of just hate and vitriol that movie got because you had a final guy instead of a final girl, and he was screaming, and it it really shed itself from like this toxic masculinity. It's a mark that is tragic, and I'm so glad that we're moving past that. I'm so glad that you got your moment to be a scream queen. That's beautiful. You mentioned that you grew up a fan of the genre. I would love to know what was your earliest connection to horror.

SPEAKER_02 7:24

Um, it's interesting. So horror has always been fascinating to me as a genre, not just in film, but also just in in terms of storytelling. I remember, so I grew up in India, which, you know, super, super far away. But I think even though cultural horror was different, just like the folklore and like our, you know, mythical creatures and everything, it's different. But there was a fascination I had with the unknown. And I would just like always be fascinated by scary stories. And like sitting in the dark and telling scary stories, or like asking like adults, like I'd like ask my grandfather to tell me story, like if he had any scary stories, and just I was fascinated by how that made me feel. I was scared, but at the same time, there was this weird, like it felt exciting in a way. And I think then as I started growing up and started watching more film and television and stuff, I just gravitated towards that genre. And I think there's something about going on this journey with these characters that you wouldn't necessarily get to go on in your own life. So it's kind of like you're able to go on this thrill ride, but still feel safe because you're watching it from Although I did, I remember really liking the feeling of being scared, like after you finish a scary movie, and there's just this like tension in the air. And that's why sometimes till date I get I freak myself out more by reading scary stories, or like by like if someone tells me like a classic, like campfire scary, or even an urban legend. I feel like because my imagination kind of starts to run wild, it like freaks me out more. But now as as a full-grown adult, I feel like I just I I have a new respect for people who work in the genre, and I think my taste has changed a little bit. I think growing up I was super, super scared of the supernatural horror, and now I kind of it doesn't do much for me anymore.

SPEAKER_03 9:10

I feel the same.

SPEAKER_00 9:12

Perhaps you've gone on your own spiritual journey because I found the same. I was raised Catholic, and then I think I lack the fundamental spirituality that I think has made it less scary for me. And I find that the older we grow or the more life we experience, and like what scares us hits differently.

SPEAKER_02 9:28

Oh my god, you're so right. That was another thing. I remember like The Exorcist being super, super scary to me just as a film when I was a kid, because of the visuals.

SPEAKER_03 9:36

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 9:37

I didn't really understand what was going on in the film because I didn't know I like didn't know much about Christianity. I didn't know the like the religious themes in the film, but just visually the film was scary and like the atmosphere that it built was scary and the makeup was scary and the performances were scary. So I let my imagination run wild as a kid and it was like super, super, it was like one of the and you you would hear all these stories about how like people passed out in the theater when they went to go see it, or like people slept with like knives under their pillows when they were so that makes it like scarier to you as a kid. But now if I watch it as an adult, just because I don't identify as like a religious person, definitely not Christian, like and I didn't grow up around Christianity, it just loses it like it doesn't have that same effect on me anymore. And that's why even the conjuring movies they're really well made and they're really good films. But in terms of the scare factor, there is this like detachment I feel just because I have never identified um with that religion. And I feel like all the the fear and all the scares are rooted in religion.

SPEAKER_00 10:40

Yeah. So I I grew up raised Roman Catholic. I like made my way up to communion, but never got confirmed, kind of backpedaled out of the last minute. But when I was younger, we watched the Amityville horror, and I remember riding my bike at the end of the driveway the first day after I watched that film, crying because I was so convinced that the devil would possess me and I would kill my family. And then the further that you go up, especially I think someone who likes coming out, being harassed, being called an abomination, things like that. I think when you go on your own and develop your own relationship with religion, whether it be just your spirituality or organized religion, things of that nature, you just tend to change. Your your your palate for horror and the media that you consume tends to change. And the conjuring is a really well-made movie, but it's not one that packs the same punch as, let's say, what I thought was alarming was The Strangers, which is just the very real people who were just gonna take the opportunity to knock at your door and infiltrate your home and kill you. Terrifying.

SPEAKER_02 11:39

That was one of the first films or first slasher films where there wasn't like even a real motive, right? Because I remember even in the trailer, Liv Tyler's character is like, Why are you doing this to us? And they're like, Because you were home. I found that to be so terrifying. Spooky.

SPEAKER_03 11:54

It is because it's so plausible. As you get older, there's like a certain level of investment you have to make in order to like get some fear out of something. So, like, if there's a belief system involved, it's very easy to be like, well, that's not that scary to me. Uh, but for something like that, like strangers just coming into your house and torturing and murdering you because they can, that's believable to me. That's something I'm willing to believe is possible, and I don't want that to happen to me specifically.

SPEAKER_02 12:15

So the crew that worked on our film Um Wrong Turn also worked on the stranger sequel, like The Strangers Prey at Night.

SPEAKER_00 12:23

Oh my gosh, yes.

SPEAKER_02 12:24

I don't think I saw that. So Emma, another actress in the cast, and I watched the the original or the first one and then the the sequel back to back. I actually love both of them. The the sequel is a little bit more like fun, and the first one feels a little bit more like prestige, like in terms of the way that it's made, but I enjoy both. And I think that I would say that presently the slasher subgenre of horror is probably my go-to in terms of like I love a good, like tight 90-minute like slasher thriller.

SPEAKER_00 12:59

Oh, I feel like a kindred spirit here, and I love that energy from you. Though Strangers Pray at Night was such a good time, particularly with its 80s soundtrack. I actually play that soundtrack very frequently. I have an Apple Music playlist comprised just of those tracks. And uh, you're actually your one of your co-hosts from Wrong Turn, Damien, was actually on our podcast after he completed The Strangers Pray at Night, uh, and to talk about like Sackhead Jason and what the experience was like donning being another sackhead killer, which is honestly iconic in his own right.

SPEAKER_02 13:28

You guys, I never met Damien while working on Wrong Turn because we were never on set on the same day. But Oh my gosh. I mean, obviously, like we know each other, like we follow each other on social media, but um I I he I feel like he's played so many iconic, like, horror because he was also in Haunt. So the crew had also worked on Haunt, and that was actually one of my favorite like modern day horror films, just because the concept of a haunted house is so scary, and that film took it to the next level. It was like surprisingly violent.

SPEAKER_00 14:00

Oh, yeah. It had like a visceral reaction.

SPEAKER_02 14:02

Yeah, I feel like I maybe I'm misremembering, but there's this scene where like the girl puts her hand out in a thing and then she like brings it out, and then all of a sudden you see the cuts form on her forearm, like in real time. I was just like, damn, that movie was good.

SPEAKER_00 14:17

It was absolutely good. So if that's one of your favorite uh modern day horror movies, what would you say is among your favorite horror movies of all time?

SPEAKER_02 14:24

I would say, and this is a pretty basic answer for any gay man, I would say that like obviously the Scream franchise is probably my favorite franchise. Funnily enough, it is the only franchise that I am well versed in. Like it is the only franchise that I have seen all the movies that are in the franchise. So, I mean, I love Halloween, I love you know all of the other ones, but I haven't seen every movie in the franchise. Like, I don't there are plenty of Halloween movies, movies I've never seen, plenty of Friday the 13th movies I haven't seen. And Texas Chainsaw I love too, but there are some I haven't seen. But Scream, I feel like, is one of those rare franchises where like it's so consistent in terms of it's all chronological, it's the same cast, and there is this like the themes are pretty similar, and it's just always a fun time, and I just loved the consistency, and I loved how they were able to maintain that over the span of so many years. But to answer your question, I think my actual like that's my favorite franchise, but my actual favorite horror movie, I think, um, is Your Next, or at least it's up there.

SPEAKER_03 15:26

Ugh, incredible, incredible taste.

SPEAKER_02 15:28

And I forget that Ty West is in that film.

SPEAKER_03 15:31

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 15:32

And his his films are also amazing. I loved House of the Devil and I loved X. So I just I feel like you're next is just I don't know why I just brought up Ty West. I just wanted to show off my horror, like, you know, like knowledge. But but yeah, you're next. I just that shit, that's my favorite final girl moment.

SPEAKER_03 15:48

Oh, absolutely. I saw that movie randomly in theaters. I think with my mom, I was like visiting her one time and we were like, because we love horror, so we went to see it in theaters, and I was like, this is not at all what I expected because it was marketed as just like a generic whatever slasher. And I was like, Yeah, we'll just go watch this bullshit. And then we left and we were like, what the fuck was that? It was such a delight and it was such a surprise, and it was so refreshing. And I love that Ty West has continued to churn out really original, really memorable pieces of horror that are very intentional, as opposed to like maybe like Friday the 13th sequels, where we have dozens of those, and you really don't need to see all of them because there's not a lot of quality, it's more quantity. And I think Scream is also like that, Vardan. Like Scream never felt the need to like make movies because they would make money. And I'm really surprised that they were able to resist that temptation because they could. They could so easily just start shitting them out and just like rack in the coins, but they haven't. And that's made this like a gorgeous little collection of like five films that are all like really solid in their own right. Even like the worst one isn't that bad.

SPEAKER_02 16:49

I know. I mean, speaking of we like, I just feel like a lot of people hate on Scream 3, but it's like the campiest one.

SPEAKER_03 16:55

It is, it is, absolutely. To me, Scream 2 is the worst one.

SPEAKER_02 16:59

Okay, I haven't seen Scream 3 in a while, so I don't remember how campy it is, but I just remember Parker Posey. Parker Posey is camp. Exactly, 100%. But then Scream 2 has my favorite Scream death. I think Jada Pinkett Smith's death in Scream 2 is probably one of my favorite deaths out of the whole Scream franchise because the fact that it's happening in such a large crowd and every nobody picks up on it is such a scary like layer to the whole death. So maybe I was the Jada of Wrong Turn and not the Drew.

SPEAKER_03 17:30

Oh my god, you were. You were the Jada Pinkett Smith of Wrong Turn.

SPEAKER_00 17:35

Obviously, Redon, we're so excited to have you, especially here in this moment with us uh for our Pride special. It's no secret that the theme of our show was that horror is for everyone, right? Regardless of how familiar you are with the genre or what flavor of fear you tend to fancy most. And while we talked about representation in horror a couple years ago, today we're gonna be talking about camp. But before we even dive into the concept of camp, as big of a concept as that is, we'd love to hear from you in terms of just your work not only in the horror genre, but outside of it as an artist and as a musician, how do you feel your connection to pride has underscored what you do and what you create?

SPEAKER_02 18:13

I think that, you know, me identifying as a queer artist and just the concept of pride in general, uh, the one word I would use to describe how I feel operating uh as an artist through that lens is just liberating. Because once all the rules sort of go out the window and you don't have to adhere to like society's expectations of you, there's so much more fun to be had. Uh and I and I was talking about this earlier with just being able to scream my ass off in wrong turn. Like, I feel like if I was worried about being perceived as masculine or, you know, or like worried about um how people may look down upon me just because you know, I'm screaming, whatever. I just feel like it you're just able to do whatever you want to do. And I'm not saying that it's always like that. Like there are obviously times where we struggle and we're definitely thinking about what other people think, but overall we just get to look at the world through a lens that doesn't have as many rules. And I think that's one of the best things about it. And I feel like I don't know if uh if you guys agree, but for me, like growing up as a queer person, I feel like I was always trying to fit myself into a box around so many other people, and I was always trying to play by these rules that I was that other people were um like inflicting on me, and then I felt like I had no other option. And it I mean, this might sound cliche, but it felt like a prison, right? So once you sort of get rid of that and start to unlearn that, it's like, oh, now let's play. Like the world becomes your oyster, you know? So yeah, I think liberating is the word that I would use to describe how I feel.

SPEAKER_03 19:50

That's so beautiful, Vardan, and I completely relate to that. As queer people, we spend so much time trying to follow these rules that really don't apply to us. And then once you realize, like, oh, none of this has anything to do with me, I can do whatever the fuck I want. I actually don't have to be like burdened by those confines, and then like you kind of feel like it's in a way like better than being straight. Whereas like straight people, they have to do a lot more work, I think, to realize that they don't have to follow that certain script that's handed to us at birth.

SPEAKER_02 20:20

I literally tweeted like two days ago being like, I'm so happy I'm not straight. Sorry, not to like be heter heterophobic, but it couldn't be me.

SPEAKER_03 20:29

No, absolutely not. I always joke, like, you know, we were all born gay, like this wasn't a choice, but like I might have chosen it had I known it would end up like this and it would be this much fun.

SPEAKER_02 20:37

It's a lot more fun. I just feel like in terms of just like the friendships and relationships I have with other queer people.

SPEAKER_00 20:44

Well, you're not wrong. I mean, I think there's certain things there to be said about authenticity. And I think for myself, going through the world not only as you know, knowing that I was quote unquote different from a young age, coming out of the closet, and then to also just be an introvert and to not be the kind of person who feels comfortable, I think, in most spaces that I think uh the world kind of tumbled me into in at times. There's something about this unapologetic authenticity and the ability to be comfortable in your own skin. And I wouldn't say I was even comfortable with the idea of being comfortable in my own skin until maybe my early 20s when I finally started surrounding myself uh in my current place of employment, or I wasn't the only one, or I wasn't the token gay or the token lesbian. And there's something there about being able to just build those relationships over shared experiences, sometimes shared trauma, and to know that there is someone there who's lived life in a similar path, even if we come from completely different places. Our experiences and the foundation of our lives are very, very similar.

SPEAKER_03 21:46

Queer people have collective trauma bonding. It's how gay art works.

SPEAKER_02 21:49

No, yeah. I mean, there a lot of it is also unsaid. It's just like this understanding. There are so many things you can't talk to straight people about when it comes to your personal life that you can talk to queer people about. You know, so true.

SPEAKER_00 22:01

Now, one of the things that is often so difficult to talk about or to really define or to understand or to harness is the concept of camp. And while camp has so many definitions to so many different people, there are so many incredible ways in which you can articulate the idea of camp. What we're here today to do is to try to understand a little bit differently or to share what our experience has been with that. So, you know, I'd love to hear from both of you really where you stand in terms of how do you explain the concept of camp.

SPEAKER_02 22:32

I feel like we should be asking Carly Kloss. Wasn't was um she was looking camp right in the eye.

SPEAKER_03 22:41

She was in that tiny little cocktail dress.

SPEAKER_02 22:45

Actually, my earliest memory of the word camp dates back to like before high school, like maybe middle school. I don't remember exactly when it was, but I went to a British high school in in Delhi. Oh. And there were some British kids in school, like that I went to school with. And um, the word camp for the longest time was actually used as a homophobic insult in England at least. Or like he's too camp or he's a bit camp. Yeah. Just to like, you know, say that someone was effeminate. Uh I don't know how widespread this was, but I remember people using that in when I was in school. And I think that like the word queer had a similar history too, right? Where it was used as like a derogatory, like slur. And obviously, like camp has a lot of different meanings, but I think there's this like reclaiming of the word and like being proud of being camp, uh, which I find to be fascinating. And obviously, camp in the context of horror is a whole different conversation. Um, but I just I hadn't thought about it until you just brought it up, but I remember now that one of the first memories I have of hearing the word camp be used in a sentence outside of like the literal way, which is like I'm going to summer camp, was derogatory.

SPEAKER_03 23:56

That's totally fair. I know that in the UK it's a word that has a much more complicated history than it does in the US. I think my first exposure to camp, I think was just as a genre of comedy. And I remember one of my favorite movies as a child was A Very Brady sequel. And that movie, I don't know if y'all have seen it. Vardan, have you seen this?

SPEAKER_02 24:17

No, I haven't.

SPEAKER_03 24:18

Vardane, it's never too late. It is a timeless film. It is classic.

SPEAKER_02 24:22

Wait, it's a sequel.

SPEAKER_03 24:23

I don't even think I've seen what like You can watch it's like the Brady Bunch movie and then a very Brady sequel. It's one of the rare instances where the sequel is somehow even better than the original.

SPEAKER_00 24:32

If you have the general gist of what the Brady Bunch is, you're fine to move on to a very Brady sequel, quite frankly.

SPEAKER_02 24:39

I think I did a pretty good job of catching up on my American pop culture before I moved here, but I think the Brady Bunch might have been my pop culture blind spot. I don't know very much about it.

SPEAKER_03 24:49

That's fine because the movie is a complete bastardization of the original show. It's basically if you took this family that was like way too happy all the time in the 70s and you plop them in the 90s and just like saw what happened when they tried to survive, that juxtaposition was like the premise of the film. And like the whole time, no one in the Brady family has any idea why everyone else is so like abrasive and crass and like smoking cigarettes and like listening to heavy metal, and they're just like blithely unaware the entire time. Uh, and RuPaul is actually in that movie as the guidance counselor, Mrs. Cummings. And I remember loving that movie as a child for so many reasons that I didn't understand until I got older, and I was like, wow, this movie might be one of the greatest films of all time. Uh but it was a very deliberate example of camp. And when I try to describe camp to people, usually Ryan on the pod, I think of it as being like two different kinds of camp. There's unintentional camp where something is, as we sometimes say, like so bad that it's good. And then there's like deliberate camp where it's like, oh, the people behind this project knew exactly what they were doing.

SPEAKER_02 25:50

Oh, you're so right. You're so right. And I had a debate about with somebody, with one of my friends, because about the film Malignant that came out recently. Because I thought I thought it was very deliberate camp, but he disagreed and thought it was like unintentional camp. I like to think of myself as a horror fan, but I feel like I I do not possess the vocabulary to debate horror. I feel like so I kind of didn't like go that deep into it. But to me, I was like, oh, every single decision that has been made by the creative team that was involved in the making of this film was intentional and they knew what they were doing.

SPEAKER_03 26:25

Exactly.

SPEAKER_02 26:26

There's no way that they did it.

SPEAKER_00 26:27

There's no way.

SPEAKER_03 26:28

No.

SPEAKER_00 26:29

If you look at James Wan's track record and how much money he has made, so many studios, and when you look at Malignant, it was this moment where he has done so much, he's had such a prolific career, and he's been able to bring in so much, he's gonna do whatever the hell he wants. And that's the beauty of how it gets into intentional camp.

SPEAKER_02 26:48

I agree totally. I mean, I saw that in theaters, and it was one of the most wild experiences I've ever had.

SPEAKER_03 26:55

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 26:55

The way that it was cut and like the screaming in slow motion and like the sudden, I'm not remembering it perfectly, like stylistically, but the whole time, and it was like inspired by like Italian horror. I forget the name of the subgenre. But Jello. Jalo, there you go, with like the over-the-topness of it all. Uh, which is actually how I would describe camp to a straight lay person. I would be like over the top, but in a way that it can be intentional, or it's so bad that it's perceived as good because it's like funny, you know. There's humor, there's humor involved in camp too, I would say.

SPEAKER_03 27:32

Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 27:33

I think my my earliest memory comes when I was watching the film Student Bodies. And Vardon, I'm not sure if that's a film that you've seen, but imagine scary movie done in the 1980s. And it's something that I think, you know, Paris, you and I have even had like our own debates on whether it's camp or just parody and satire. But that movie pushes the envelope so far beyond the convention of just parody and satire. And I think for defining camp, that's typically where I fall. It's a style that's applied that pushes the boundaries of convention, whether that be um the the certain kind of subgenre that it's tackling on, uh, whether that's like a form of fashion or literature, but it's it cements itself on the same end of the spectrum as excess, outrageous excess, but it does so with reverence, with love, and with intention. So, Paris, I think you classify this opportunity for it to be intentional and unintentional. And I think unintentional camp absolutely does exist. But for me, if I define camp and recognize camp, I think of it as like at its most extreme. It's the so bad it's good, but that was the whole point, as opposed to just ah, you locked your way there. I think that's where I stand within it.

SPEAKER_02 28:41

It's interesting you say that because maybe that like because you know, camp being associated with queerness makes total sense because you, as you said, it it is trying to push the boundaries and the confines of what we know to be conventional, and that's why it works so well, and that's why queer people love it so much. I mean, I have never taken a single queer studies class or anything, so maybe I'm just talking out of my ass. I don't know. But it makes sense to me. And obviously, there's so many films like the So Bad It's Good thing, where like when they came out, they were totally panned by critics, and now they're like camp classics. I think like Drop Dead Gorgeous is a good example. So good.

SPEAKER_03 29:18

Oh yeah.

SPEAKER_02 29:19

And so many of these films, like the actors were so bummed when they came out, and now they're like people want to like go back and review them all over again. Like, because in hindsight, they were kind of brilliant.

SPEAKER_03 29:29

I think also when it comes to camp, you can perceive something to in a camp way. And I think that goes to the more like pure examples of camp, which were unintentional. I think camp at its purest is unaware that it's like so it's something that has like so much effort and so much like sincerity put into it, and then completely does not realize like that it's tone-deaf or that it's missing the mark or that it's flopping, and that in itself becomes something of value, especially to queer people, because we love like weird, subversive kinds of things. But for some reason, I just keep thinking of like the movie Top Gun, which I've never seen, but I know for a fact that that movie is camp. Because like a certain demographic of people could watch that movie and be like, this is incredible, like airplanes are cool, I love the military. And then another demographic of people would watch this and then be like, Wow, how fun that Tom Cruise has no idea that like he's just perpetuating that masculinity is a prison. Like you can watch it from two different angles, and I feel like that is part of camp as well, just being able to perceive things from a different perception.

SPEAKER_02 30:32

But it's funny that you were saying that like the like so bad it's good, but like people and they're so unaware. I also feel that way about like people sometimes. Like, why do you think that like the real housewives are camp? Yeah, like you know what I mean? Like, because they don't realize the gays love them, but like why? Because they're not aware of the fact that like they're not in on it, they're not in on the joke.

SPEAKER_03 30:55

Exactly. I think that's so true, specifically for like the first season of any real housewife, like her first season on the show, unintentional camp, completely naive to the fact of like what's actually being perceived, and then they see themselves on TV and then they kind of start to get it, and then they start to lean into it, and then it becomes intentional camp. And I think there's something to be said for both of them. I enjoy both equally, uh, but there's definitely like a shift that happens once they kind of step outside of themselves and they see what everyone else is seeing, at least like partially. Uh, the ones that double down and are like even more delusional than ever before after seeing that kind of thing, that is always super entertaining for television. And then there's the ones that kind of try too hard and it's like, oh, we liked it before you didn't realize that you were like this.

SPEAKER_02 31:35

Exactly. Or like when someone is like, oh, like the gays love me, and like apparently I'm a meme, so I'm gonna lean into that and start like selling merch.

SPEAKER_03 31:43

Yeah. It's like, well, now it's not as fun. Now that you're in on it.

SPEAKER_02 31:47

A perfect example is Nicole Kidman's AMC ad.

SPEAKER_00 31:50

Oh my gosh.

SPEAKER_03 31:51

That is pure camp.

SPEAKER_02 31:53

When she worked, when she filmed that ad, which like I'm assuming lots of green screens were involved. I don't even think she set foot in an AMC to film that ad, too.

SPEAKER_03 32:01

Oh god, no, they built one for her.

SPEAKER_02 32:03

I don't think that she has ever set foot in an AMC. Just need to. But when that ad came out, I don't think anyone involved in the making of that ad could have realized the impact that it was going to have.

SPEAKER_03 32:15

It's incredible.

SPEAKER_02 32:16

It's so funny how, like, again, queer people, literally, all these marketing campaigns are like nobody they didn't spend a single cent on like promoting that ad. It's just queer people with their like little memes online will just give free press and like literally can make something blow up overnight. Just that's the power that we possess.

SPEAKER_03 32:36

That's so true.

SPEAKER_00 32:37

So obviously, camp sinks its teeth into so many different forms of media and different mediums altogether. But I'd love to know what are some of your favorite examples of camp within horror.

SPEAKER_02 32:48

Oh my gosh, that's so hard. I mean, malignant for sure. I mean malignant is my probably the campiest horror film I've seen in recent memory. But I guess I thought X was campy too, but it felt like it was very like aware of the fact that it was campy, but also because it was stylistically trying to replicate like a certain era of horror. And I think it succeeded, but because it was so in on it, I wouldn't I don't know if I would necessarily qualify it as camp. But there were so many humorous moments in the film that I feel like could count as camps. I don't know.

SPEAKER_00 33:20

Yeah, I think it wields camp as a tool to tell its story, but it doesn't necessarily like sync itself and say, hey, this is X 2022, and we're camp over here. You know what I mean? It's using it as a tool versus making its statement piece that.

SPEAKER_03 33:35

Yeah, I think it's a bit more diluted.

SPEAKER_02 33:37

And there are films like Ready or Not, for example, that have camp moments, but I wouldn't necessarily describe the entire project as like a camp classic. Like Samara Weaving sitting covered in blood, smoking a cigarette is like camp to me. There are lots of moments that are really campy in that movie, but again, I don't know, it's hard to say. What about you guys?

SPEAKER_03 33:59

I'm also drawing a blank. Malignant definitely is one of the most beautiful, I think, weaponizations of camp that they've had that that's happened recently. I feel like James Wan, I have a theory that James Wan's gay. I have no evidence to prove this, but I also have no real concrete evidence to deny this. Uh, but I feel like there's something inherently queer about James Wan, and I can't wait for him to come out of the closet in whatever capacity he does. Oh, slepaway camp.

SPEAKER_02 34:25

I was gonna bring that up earlier.

SPEAKER_03 34:26

We gotta talk about sleepaway camp.

SPEAKER_02 34:28

I watched that movie not too long ago for the first time, actually. Like, I think only like a couple years ago, and I had no idea that that's where it was gonna go.

SPEAKER_03 34:38

Same. It was such a gag. Have you seen the sequel?

SPEAKER_02 34:41

I haven't, but isn't it like many, many years later or something?

SPEAKER_03 34:45

Yeah. So the sequel, she comes back, she's transitioned fully, she's living her life, but she's just like there to get revenge because everyone failed her, uh, even though she was the killer. It's problematic in a lot of ways because like a trans character is a serial killer, and like that's obviously been a false propagation for a really long time.

SPEAKER_02 35:07

Yeah, like a trope that exists in so many films.

SPEAKER_03 35:10

I just Which is so ass backwards. But because I know how backwards it is, and I know like trans people are like so much more likely to be the victims of horror horrible violence, and like there's never really been evidence of like a trans serial killer. I think that perception and that information allows me to view something like this from a camp perspective where it's like, yes, let me see a trans serial killer like finally getting vengeance on like a society that has like done nothing but tried to put her down and like shut her away and tell her she's invalid. Um, it the movie I think is really great and fun, uh, but it's definitely not without its critics.

SPEAKER_00 35:44

Oh, I hated it. But it's great because I love the original Sleep Away Camp, and I thought that was the perfect embodiment of camp in an 80s slasher.

SPEAKER_02 35:52

Yeah, totally. Even like the outfits, I remember I feel like uh whatever the costume design in the film was was so I mean it was from the 80s, but it was just like, oh, some of this stuff is coming back. People are wearing similar outfits. I was also gonna say that it's funny that you said that, oh yeah, there has been no evidence of like a trans serial killer. And I think Jodie Foster's character says that in Silence of the Lambs.

SPEAKER_03 36:15

And they also dive deep into it in the book.

SPEAKER_02 36:17

Yeah, which I find that was cool that at least they like mention that. Oh my gosh, I'm realizing that I don't think I've actually ever seen Silence of the Lambs in its entirety.

SPEAKER_03 36:27

Oh my god. Okay, there's elements of Silence of the Lambs that are camp.

SPEAKER_02 36:32

Really?

SPEAKER_03 36:33

Oh, absolutely. Jody Foster in general. So, like when you talk about camp, there's like this like essay by Susan Sontag called Notes on Camp. And I was like, I've heard about this so many times, but I've never actually read it. So today I actually did read it. I was like, if there's ever a time for me to do some research, it's today. And she talks specifically about how things can age into camp, where like sometimes when something is current or fresh, we're too close to it to take it anything but seriously and literally. And then when you have time and distance away from it, you can at least see it from a different perspective. And I think Silence of the Lambs, while definitely being one of the most iconic, successful horror films of all time, like incredible performances, a lot of earnest sincerity, there's like elements of it that have really aged into camp. And it to me only makes it sweeter. It's like a wine that's aged really well.

SPEAKER_02 37:18

Well, that's what I was talking about with like Drop Dead Gorgeous. I know it's not a horror film, but like when it first came out, it was like I think I was listening to um an interview with Kirsten Dunst, and she was talking about how um, you know, that movie was kind of just panned and how people because like that cast is stacked.

SPEAKER_03 37:37

Oh, it's incredible.

SPEAKER_02 37:38

I think like Amy Adams is in it too, and like Denise Richards, it's crazy.

SPEAKER_03 37:42

It's so hot.

SPEAKER_00 37:43

I think aging into camp is such an interesting concept, and I think some of the places that I've seen it done in horror is more of a let's steer this ship in a particular direction as opposed to uh being just like on its own, a piece that can gracefully age on its own. So thinking about the child's play franchise, for example. The child's play franchise went in a very specific direction, and then as soon as you started getting Chucky in the title, pure camp. You have Bride of Chucky, we have Seed of Chucky, which was in some ways progressive, in more ways harmful, but has now aged itself in its campiness to actually be even more progressive and to be outspoken in support of the LGBTQ community, even with the Chucky TV series. Right. There's a lot of beautiful moments there. I think some of the other big ones for me, there's a movie, I don't know if either of you have ever seen it, called Rubber. It's about a tire that's a killer tire.

SPEAKER_02 38:38

No, I have not. Wait, I've seen a poster for it, and that reminds me of that movie about jeans that are like killer jeans. Slacks, slacks is camp. We reviewed that, right? Or like there's a movie about killer car, too. There's many about a killer car, but yeah, that sounds camp, like a movie about a rubber tire. Is it? Was it?

SPEAKER_00 38:56

It is, and I thought it was just gonna be silly and bad, but the measures that it takes with even having an audience watching the tire do this random bullshit, it is very much camp. It is camp that I think is uh accessible to many people who don't quite understand what camp is because it's definitely not parody. It's I don't think it it's strong enough in satire to be satire, but it purely is camp. Like if you could think of just ridiculous. Absolutely absurd, Ferdinand. It's absurd. Another one for me though is Terrifier, which I'm not sure if you've seen those.

SPEAKER_02 39:32

Okay, I have seen that. I actually don't I'm conflicted about whether that is camp just because it is so grotesque that it I felt like I can do horror, I can do gore, but there were just some scenes in that film that just felt so gratuitous to me that I was kind of it just like left a bad taste in my mouth after I was done watching it. I was like, oh, I need to like shower or something. It just felt really, really dark.

SPEAKER_03 39:54

Okay, but doesn't the gratuitous nature enable it to be camp? Like specifically, you're thinking the hot dog cut, right?

SPEAKER_02 40:00

Yes, she was lit, and I felt okay, but also I watched it from the perspective of an actor, and I just I felt so bad for that actress. I was like, that must have been such a difficult scene for you to film. I mean, hey, I don't know her, maybe she was really excited about it, I don't know. But I just was like, that is so, so like, I don't know. I I guess I was just trying to put myself in her shoes, and I was like, if I had to do a scene like that, I would be so anxious and just but yeah, I mean a lot of people love that movie, and I do see why some people say that it's camp, but I haven't seen it in a minute. It was like years ago, like when it first came out. There's a sequel too, right?

SPEAKER_00 40:38

Yeah, it's supposed to be coming out. It was supposed to be coming out later this year. And I don't think there's a definitive release date just yet. I'm looking forward to it, and I don't know why, because Terrifier was traumatic. It's one that I think was well made, but it is honestly what you shared, right? It's so uncomfortable and you feel like you gotta take a shower after it. But I think it's another one of those where like if we think of a scale of camp to not camp, and if Ty West's X is a film that utilizes camp in a positive way, I think Terrifier also utilizes camp without itself falling so far onto the its pure camp spectrum. But oh my gosh, that film, there's something so gleeful and excessive and outrageous about Art the Clown that it for sure has that camp energy for me.

SPEAKER_02 41:23

He scared the crap out of me. I don't often get scared by like killers in films anymore, but it was and also I'm so over the like crown or clowns are scary trope because like it was overdone. But yeah, Art the Clown, it was just there was it it's like mean. You know what I mean? Like it's just there's no it's so unforgiving. Oh, absolutely that whole film.

SPEAKER_03 41:45

It's brutal, but also Art the Clown, famously very gay. You think I think if anybody was in on it, oh my god, so gay. That clown was gay. Don't you think? Was that not like part of it? It's been a few years.

SPEAKER_02 41:58

I don't know.

SPEAKER_00 41:59

Maybe I let's reassess it the sequel. We'll do a rewind. Redon, you're welcome to come back on the show.

SPEAKER_02 42:05

To do yeah, when Terrifier 2 comes out, we'll do another episode to like watch it again with the lens of that clown's gay. But some movies are so dark. Have you ever seen that movie that's kind of like found footage? I watched it not too long ago, but I can't remember the name, where it's like it ends up where it's like she's on camera the entire time, but like it's like a bunch of different like snuff films or something, and like some Pigkepsie tapes? No, it's like one word, like the cell, or not the cell, because that's was it Cam where she's like a Cam girl? No, but that one was also that one was more so just trippy.

SPEAKER_03 42:38

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 42:39

See, that's the thing, like it's two those types of things are just so dark, and like that's a type of horror that I can't necessarily stomach. So, and even like some of like Eli Roth's like hostile and stuff, like I find it hard to watch still. Like, I just feel like it's just so dark, and it just makes me s sad and anxious as opposed to like thr like thrilled and excited. So I don't know that there's certain horror films that I find very difficult to do. Like, I can't even do like the human sense of heat and stuff.

SPEAKER_03 43:08

There's just this air of like once again, the human centipede very camp. The scientist in that movie is gay.

SPEAKER_02 43:16

I will give you that. My brother actually isn't even like a big fan of horror, but he but he like loves film just in general. Like he's you know, very much in that world, and he believes that the human sense of heat is a low-key, just like a genius film, which is so unlike him to think that a film of that genre would be. So there is something to be said about just how out there it is that does make it camp. But I think again, it the sequels start to venture into the territory of just like schlock and shock. And I'm kind of like I can't do that.

SPEAKER_00 43:46

I think it's a I'll opt out, I'll unsubscribe from that newsletter. You know, I just I have no interest.

SPEAKER_03 43:52

Have you seen the human centipede, Chris?

SPEAKER_00 43:54

Absolutely not. Again, I have no interest. I am so sure that Alexis is gonna work it into the line. Up at some point in time, and I will not be a bad sport about it, but I also won't be happy.

SPEAKER_02 44:04

See, there are movies that I don't personally love, but there are movies that I would love to watch with somebody else to see what their reaction is going to be. And the Human Centipede is a great example of a film that I would love to watch with you, Chris, just to see how you react to it in real time. Because that would be the entertainment value for me. Yeah, we definitely have to watch that together.

SPEAKER_00 44:24

Okay, you're invited back to the show for Human Centipede, and you said it there. That film for me was the perfection, and apparently everybody I've ever showed it to hates it. And Paris is the only person I've met who does not hate it.

SPEAKER_03 44:37

The perfection is good. Oh, I love The Perfection. Because we're queer. It's a queer movie. I mean, it is literally queer.

SPEAKER_02 44:43

Any horror film with Allison Williams, like she was great in Get Out, she's great in The Perfection. I think that like Well, the whole scene in the bus where she's like arms chop. Yeah. It was a really good movie. People don't like that movie.

SPEAKER_00 44:56

I know. I was shocked too. I loved it. I had to defend its honor on our show many times. And uh anytime I've shown it to somebody thinking, hey, you're the person who isn't really into horror movies, but you enjoy cerebral kind of experiences, you like psychological thrillers, surely you'll love this movie. And they've all panned it. It is shocking to me to say the least.

SPEAKER_02 45:17

And if I remember correctly, it has like a payoff at the end, right?

SPEAKER_03 45:20

Like there's an iconic final shot. Not unlike Black Swan, that movie.

SPEAKER_02 45:24

I saw Black Swan in theaters in like 2010, freshman year of college, and Rachel McAdams was in the theater with us.

SPEAKER_03 45:30

Oh, really? Okay, I didn't do that.

SPEAKER_02 45:32

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 45:32

Did she like it?

SPEAKER_02 45:33

Uh I loved Black Swan. I don't, but I actually don't think I've seen it since, so I don't remember it well.

SPEAKER_03 45:38

No, Rachel McAdams. Did she like it?

SPEAKER_02 45:40

Oh, she was great. I spoke to her after she was like, No, I'm kidding, I didn't talk to her. Um, but it was just I just moved to New York and like it was just like one of the first celebrity sightings I had ever had, and I was like, oh my god, they're real.

SPEAKER_00 45:54

I've never seen Black Swan, but I of course have seen the scene from Black Swan because I love Natalie Portman so much. How could I not see that as a young buddy lesbian?

SPEAKER_03 46:03

Oh, the lesbian scene. Because there's a lot of like the scenes from Black Swan. I need to rewatch it. Something that I would love to talk about its camp qualities is Midsommar. Oh gosh. Oh. I think if we give it 10 years, we will look back on this movie with camp eyes. Because there's certain elements of it. Obviously, it's like so serious and so somber, but like just like the Swedish culture and like the ritualistic nature of every character in that community, I think is going to age into Camp. I'm just I'm just predicting it now.

SPEAKER_02 46:35

I feel like it takes itself a bit too seriously to be counted as Camp. Exactly.

SPEAKER_03 46:41

I love the movie. Oh, obviously it's one of my faves, but I think because it takes itself so seriously, ten years from now we're gonna look back and we're gonna be like, oh, remember this. And I think we'll be able to look at it differently.

SPEAKER_02 46:52

Well, I guess like you're not completely wrong because like hereditary, like the Tony Collette monologues from Hereditary are already venturing into Camp category, like the whole I Am Your Mother scene is like a classic already, so maybe Midsumar. But I think that the opening, like the tragedy that occurs in Midsumar is almost a little too dark for it to just because it's like a murder suicide, and like she loses her parents and her sister. It's just so so dark. So for me, I don't know, because Camp involves humor a lot of times, or there's something sort of you know ridiculous or kind of even glamorous, and that's the complete opposite of that. But I don't know, maybe in a few years.

SPEAKER_03 47:32

Listen, definitely not the beginning of the movie, but I'm thinking the end where she's like where all of those women are just like heaving around her, and then when she's the May Queen. Well, all the rituals, yeah. The May Queen is giving glamour as she watches her boyfriend burn alive in a bear costume. That's giving glamour, that's giving camp. Uh, and then just like all the naked women dancing.

SPEAKER_00 47:50

Spoiler alert.

SPEAKER_03 47:51

Oh, yeah, spoiler alert. If you haven't seen this movie, go watch it. Go watch Midsommar.

SPEAKER_02 47:54

Okay, uh this from this reminded me for no reason at all. I don't know how I got here from here, from there, but um I recently watched The Town That Dreaded Sundown. Which one? Well, both. Oh, amazing. But I think that the new one is kind of actually camp.

SPEAKER_00 48:10

It absolutely is.

SPEAKER_02 48:11

Just in the way that it's made. I think a lot of the Ot Slashers are like House of Wax or like any of those, like that were like, again, that age into camp, right? I would say. Because when these films came out, they probably didn't get the recognition that they deserve, because I also think that people look down upon horror as a genre like it never gets taken seriously. And then now if you look at it, it's like, oh, it's a really fun time. I loved how the newer town that's dreaded sundown uses the original. Like because it's not really a reboot, because it takes place in the same town, and the original film exists in the universe of the new film, which I thought was really cleverly done.

SPEAKER_00 48:50

Oh, absolutely love that approach to that film. It's something where the original film I have enjoyed and I've obsessed over the Phantom Killer of like have so many audiobooks studying that case. But I remember Paris, if you haven't seen these movies, I haven't. That's the movie that has the scene that is such an intense sex scene in a hotel that Ryan asked me if I was more gay because she is less straight after watching it.

SPEAKER_03 49:16

Was it heterosexual sex?

SPEAKER_00 49:18

It was heterosexual sex and it was it was kind of gross.

SPEAKER_03 49:20

Oh, it was so bad that she was less straight.

SPEAKER_00 49:22

Yeah, she was less straight.

SPEAKER_02 49:24

Well, the the killings right after that scene.

SPEAKER_00 49:26

Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 49:26

It was like a quintessential like they had sex and now they must die. Yeah. You know?

SPEAKER_00 49:31

But it had an extended runtime, and any movie that makes Ryan feel that way is definitely camp.

SPEAKER_02 49:37

I have a close friend who's like a huge horror fan, and he was like, I love these movies, and I was like, Oh, let's just watch the new one. And he was like, No, it's better if you watch the original because the way they use it in the new one is really cool.

SPEAKER_03 49:47

So that's Chris Rojas.

SPEAKER_02 49:49

It's me, I'm the friend. The sex scene though, it's funny because like that kind of like the the nudity and you know, just like sex scenes and horror films were such a trope in the odds. Like it was such like a thing, and I think now it's happening less so.

SPEAKER_00 50:05

Yeah, now I'm just thinking of the 2009 remake or the reboot of Friday the 13th. I don't know if you either of you have seen that one.

SPEAKER_02 50:13

I have, but not in a while, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 50:15

But it has the most ridiculous sex scene where this guy tells her that her tits are stupendous, and it becomes like this hilarious moment within it, and it almost gets there to camp. If this guy was like a little bit less of a shithead or a little bit more of a shithead, he's just too somewhere in this like ambiguous gray area that it feels bad instead of being so bad, it's good.

SPEAKER_03 50:36

Yeah. That definitely tracks.

SPEAKER_02 50:38

I have a question for you guys.

SPEAKER_03 50:40

Yeah, what is it?

SPEAKER_02 50:42

The new Halloween films, are they camp to you?

SPEAKER_03 50:44

Halloween kills every scene with Kyle Richards, yes. There's certain things where it's like if you put a certain like Paris Hilton in House of Wax has aged into camp. And actually at the time it might have been camp, to be honest. Um, but like Kyle Richards being in these movies, now that Kyle Richards has had Real Housewives of Beverly Hills under her belt, there's an inherent element of camp to that. And I'm so excited that she's gonna be included in the third one.

SPEAKER_00 51:04

Okay, but can we talk about the fact that she was from the original Halloween?

SPEAKER_03 51:08

Like, no, she was, and those ones, not camp because of her inclusion, but the the ones post-Housewives have an inherent, like they will never not be linked with that being like Mauricio's wife from Real Housewives of Beverly Hills. She will always be that in these movies.

SPEAKER_02 51:23

But my hot take is that she was actually really good, like her acting was really good. Oh, she was stellar, and it's like it's cool that she's able to bring this like camp element into the film, but still deliver a good performance. And I will say that just the way Jamie Lee Curtis looks in the whole film is camp.

SPEAKER_00 51:38

Like the way she's walking around, the way she her whole energy is just it is a movie that I the 2018 version I feel was doing so much to resurrect the franchise. I didn't get a lot of camp energy there. I think there are some moments that are, for example, Michael stomping someone's face into the street, absolute camp. But Halloween Kills, I think, takes what was teased a little bit in Halloween 2018 and really embraces its its utilization of camp and its weaponization of camp because Evil Dies Tonight can be nothing but camp, honestly.

SPEAKER_02 52:12

Evil dies tonight. Everyone chanting Evil Dies Tonight at that hospital where like Judy Greer is just randomly trying to help this man who like everyone's mob hunting. I was like, what is going on in this film? And the fact that it's Judy Greer. Well, Judy Greer also camp.

SPEAKER_03 52:28

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 52:28

I would say.

SPEAKER_03 52:29

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_02 52:30

Ugh, what a queen.

SPEAKER_03 52:31

So, whether or not you've had a chance to read Notes on Camp by Susan Sontag, I have highlighted some of the more relevant excerpts. Um, funnily enough, she talks about things aging into camp, and I think this essay itself has aged into camp because she makes maybe 1,500 references to different pieces of media, but this was written in 1964, so none of those references make any sense anymore to the point where it's comedic. You can skip almost half of the entire thing.

SPEAKER_00 52:56

Doesn't she also reference the homosexuals?

SPEAKER_03 52:58

She sure does. That is explicitly addressed, and that's actually where I'm going right now.

SPEAKER_02 53:03

I'm so glad you're able to give me this breakdown because you know I famously don't know how to read.

SPEAKER_03 53:08

Fair. It's a short 14-page little bit.

SPEAKER_02 53:11

No, I'm kidding. I I obviously know how to read is what Leah Michelle would have said if she was on this podcast now. Chris, was it you I was telling about that?

SPEAKER_00 53:21

Yes, I've only just recently, and I like obviously had such a big obsession with the show Glee, and I've only recently learned this thing that Leah Michelle can't read. Camp. Talk about camp. Talk about aging into camp. Oh no, I don't think it even aged into camp. I think it was camp from the very beginning. There is a thread that I retweeted recently that was in honor of the show's first anniversary of airing. Uh, hear 13 of the most unhinged performances from Gui, and oh my god, watching it now? Absurd. I kind of want to do a separate Glee podcast one day because it's just fucking outrageous.

SPEAKER_03 53:56

Ryan Murphy really has a gift when it comes to like starting something off so well, letting his ADD get the best of him and just letting it caraveen off into wherever, and then like in hindsight, looking back at it and being like, wow, look at that. Look at that thing that happened.

SPEAKER_00 54:11

He and James Warren are very similar.

SPEAKER_03 54:13

Jane Lynch doing Nicki Minaj.

SPEAKER_00 54:16

Oh my gosh, yes. Paris, have you seen this?

SPEAKER_02 54:19

I famously have never seen Glee.

SPEAKER_00 54:20

Okay, I'm gonna fix that.

SPEAKER_02 54:22

I haven't ever seen Glee yet. I know all the unhinged performances because I did go through that thread that you were talking about.

SPEAKER_03 54:27

Because I saw it on my timeline too. Chris put a link to that in the show notes. Okay, so Susan Sontag had this to say about queerness and camp. And I don't know how queer she was, but it sounds like she's at least queer adjacent.

SPEAKER_02 54:39

Queer coded.

SPEAKER_03 54:40

From everything I've read here. But she said this the peculiar relation between camp taste and homosexuality has to be explained. While it's not true that camp taste is homosexual taste, there is no doubt a peculiar affinity and overlap. Not all homosexuals have camp taste, but homosexuals, by and large, constitute the vanguard and the most articulate audience of camp. Nevertheless, even though homosexuals have been its vanguard, camp taste is much more than homosexual taste. Obviously, its metaphor of life as theater is peculiarly suited as a justification and projection of a certain aspect of the situation of homosexuals. The camp insistence on not being serious on playing also connects with the homosexual's desire to remain youthful, yet one feels that if homosexuals hadn't more or less invented camp, someone else probably would. For the aristocratic posture with relation to culture cannot die, though it may persist only in increasingly arbitrary and ingenious ways. Camp is the relation to style in a time in which the adoption of style as such has become altogether questionable.

SPEAKER_02 55:35

Not her saying that the gays are like latching onto their youth. It's true.

SPEAKER_03 55:39

She knows. She really read us for filth. She did. That's why I was like, she definitely has gays in her life if she's able to clock us like this.

SPEAKER_02 55:47

You know what though? Something she said is interesting and maybe I'm misinterpreting it, but um I feel like there is this like baseline level of intelligence that is intelligence and self-awareness that is necessary to understand camp and to be able to point it out, right? So when she I think she's you said something that she said that not every homosexual has camp taste, right? So I mean, as I've said this so many times already while recording this, but I feel like there is this like element of like superior intelligence that a lot of queer people possess because they are very self-aware, like a lot of queer people are extra self-aware, just because they've probably felt like they were under a microscope all their life. So they're able to be more perceptive of other people and just you know, pop culture in general and things happening around them, and it's easier to make commentary and do satire and all of that. I don't know if that was me reaching after hearing what she had to say, but um, I feel like there definitely is a level of self-awareness that queer people possess that make that that makes them more aware of what camp is, I guess. And that's why they're drawn to it. I don't know.

SPEAKER_00 57:00

Yeah, I think that's a very natural conclusion to come to in 2022 after an art essay written in the 60s, right? That is clearly, I think, short-sighted enough in its own structure of writing, in its own style, and what was known and understood then, but it I think it creates a like a loose enough framework for things to still apply and still be relevant in some ways.

SPEAKER_03 57:21

I totally agree. She consistently refers to this like life as theater concept. And I think as queer people, we earlier than most recognize so much of the facade that is the world we live in. And once you're able to kind of see beyond the fourth wall, you kind of see things from an outside perspective, and you're like, that's not a woman, that is a person playing the character of a woman, or like that is not a homosexual, that is the person playing the role of a homosexual. And when you're able to kind of see things from that two different perspectives, you can kind of find more value in things that might not even be that great from one perspective. You might look at it differently and be like, oh, well, it's actually kind of great in this way. In again, the Nicole Kidman AMC ad comes to mind. Like, you could play that for a theater of straits, which did happen when I went to see the WandaVision movie a couple weeks ago. Doctor Strange? Yeah, the Doctor Strange movie. I just call it the Wandavision movie. As you should. Exactly. But like it was a full audience, and they were reacting to every trailer, everything. They were so lit up, and then it was just crickets during the AMC commercial. And as soon as like her little platform pump stepped on that puddle, I just like started applauding, and I was the only one in the audience that reacted to that. But I was like, don't you all see like what this is? Right. And what like the value that's being had here right now.

SPEAKER_02 58:34

Well, that's what I'm saying. The the straights do not possess the frequency to understand.

SPEAKER_03 58:40

It's a different perspective.

SPEAKER_00 58:41

Yeah, it's a different wavelength. And really, it's this level of like, we are conditioned from a very early age to find ourselves living within subtext and having to constantly read into things and decode so many things. And I think it just it enables almost like a different form of critical thinking that would you otherwise have to apply at this point in your life. And so I think the ability to interpret things or to to stand here and look at the same situation as anyone else and see something completely different. I think there's obviously tremendous value there, but I think it also underscores why camp and horror go so hand in hand together and why there are so many movies like all three of us here enjoying the perfection can go together with and still be a miss for so many other people.

SPEAKER_03 59:29

I totally agree, Chris, and I just want to close out this little segment with this final note from Susan. Our girl Suze, she said, Camp taste is above all a mode of enjoyment, of appreciation and not judgment. Camp is generous, it wants to enjoy. Camp taste doesn't propose that it is in bad taste to be serious, it doesn't sneer at someone who succeeds in being seriously dramatic. What it does is to find the success in certain passionate failures.

SPEAKER_00 59:54

It's beautiful, it's poetic, it's giving Corinthians, it's giving love inspiration of love is kind. You know what I mean?

SPEAKER_03 1:00:01

It feels like Camp is flop.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:04

I feel like if we made a gay version of a walk to remember, we'd have camp instead of love, is all this stuff. And that was beautiful, Paris. Thank you.

SPEAKER_03 1:00:12

Thank you, Susan Sondag, who I keep wanting to say Susan Sondheim. I'm surprised you haven't you didn't slip into that because I would have done that. For all intents and purposes, she's Susan Sondheim. Which it would be camp.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:23

I know that we've been talking about this this intersection here for a little while now. I think this is such like a natural point to find ourselves in unpacking the intersection between not only horror and queerness, but also camp. And I'll share that I mean there's an incredible article that was written in 2020 by Michaela Barton, and they talk about how deeply intertwined the three are. And there's this line that talks about how the closest similarities between camp and horror is how they both exist outside of society while still being rooted within it. And I found that that is such an incredible way to describe not only like my lived experience, but the lived experiences of so many others. Yeah, the lived experiences of everyone right now who is living and experiencing the don't say gay bill, for example, and more than 200 pieces of legislature that have been drafted even this year alone that are harmful and detrimental to youth in our community, particularly trans youth. And there's this element of existing outside of society while still having to constantly fight and you know uh cement your place within society. I think camp is the joy, just like you said, Paris. It's it's this generous joy and it's this moment of reprieve to celebrate your position while acknowledging how different you are. I absolutely just love the beauty of that.

SPEAKER_02 1:01:43

I just want to say that we have Paris here citing a like a full-on essay from the 60s. You're citing an article that you read, and here I am, just like I did no homework.

SPEAKER_03 1:01:55

Verdon, I famously never do any homework. This is the most effort I've ever put in.

SPEAKER_02 1:01:59

But you know what? No, all that is to say that I actually really appreciate that you guys did because I feel like I'm learning a lot too, because you're able to articulate and put into words so many thoughts that I have had in the past, but now I'm like, oh, now I know how to explain this if it ever comes up in conversation.

SPEAKER_03 1:02:15

I feel like that's partly what motivated me. And I'm not even joking. I wrote on my reminders, I I said I said a reminder, I said, remind me to watch notes on camp. And then I said it into my Apple TV, and they were like, that's not a thing you can watch. And I looked it up and I was like, oh, it's an essay. Ugh. And then I saw it was only 14 pages, and I was like, okay, fine.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:33

Only 14 pages. It's a lot of pages.

SPEAKER_03 1:02:36

When it comes to like the intersection of queerness, horror, and camp. The first thing that comes to my mind is Elvira, mistress of the dark that she is.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:45

Oh, yes.

SPEAKER_03 1:02:46

It feels like she is like the epitome of all three of those things, especially now more than ever since she's come out as queer. Which, like, I don't know if I always just kind of assumed, but I was always like, she's too good for any man, and that's just maybe my own projections. But then to see that, like, oh no, she's been like a happily lesbian woman like for decades and has never told any of us. I was like, ugh, that felt like such a win when that happened.

SPEAKER_02 1:03:10

Yeah, I mean, I also that reminds me of just like the film Death Becomes Her. I don't think that Elvira has nothing to do with Death Becomes Her.

SPEAKER_03 1:03:18

I don't think it's think, but it's the same brand, but similar vibes, right?

SPEAKER_02 1:03:22

So I was on a date like a couple years ago and I watched it for the first time on that date, and I was like, this is just a hundred percent. I wouldn't say that it's horror, but it does it does lean into certain horror tropes, maybe. I don't know, it's definitely not scary, but it's camp. But it also like there's like a specific subgenre of movies that are like popular around Halloween that aren't necessarily scary, like Hocus Pocus or um any of those, but yeah. Spooky. Death Becomes Her has everything that would you know be qualified as camp, I would say.

SPEAKER_03 1:03:57

Absolutely. Meryl Streep. Because you've seen Death Becomes Her, right? My favorite thing, like Vardon, you were talking about movies that you like to watch with other people for the first time. Death Becomes Her is one of my favorites. If I can find people that have never seen that movie, I have to watch it with them.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:09

I've never seen this movie.

SPEAKER_03 1:04:10

Oh my god, Chris, I can't wait.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:12

Is this gonna be a Pride Month watch-along? Is that what this is gonna be?

SPEAKER_03 1:04:16

Yes, it has to be.

SPEAKER_02 1:04:17

I recently uh re-watched uh the Texas Chainsaw Massacre remake with Jessica Beale. And maybe this is an unpopular opinion, but I thought it was genuinely scary because Leatherface, just as a killer in that film, like the killer design, he's just this like seven foot tall, large dude who looks scary wielding a fucking chainsaw, like it was horrifying. But in addition to that, I think Jessica Beale as a final girl in that movie to me is camp.

SPEAKER_03 1:04:49

Uh-huh.

SPEAKER_02 1:04:50

I guess, I guess as a queer person or as like a a like a gay man at least, I have always just lived vicariously through the final girl. And her just like running and screaming away from Leatherface in the like butcher shop scene. I was just like, this is camp. And she always she has this like tank top that's like tied up, and for some reason it never gets untied. Like throughout the entire chase scene, she's like running away from him, and the tank top is just perfectly placed the entire time. And I was like, that's camp.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:22

Yeah, the biggest moment of camp for me in that movie, I think, was the reveal, and it was a heartbreaking one, honestly. But the reveal we get of Leatherface wearing her soon-to-be fiance's and unknowing to her uh face, Kemper's face, it was one of those things that it was completely horrific watching it as a kid, and then watching it a few years later. I'm like, it's almost hilarious, but it's still very disturbing and very sad.

SPEAKER_02 1:05:46

And then when she runs Leatherface over and she's like, like goes back and then runs over him again. I was like, yes. I think for me it's very important to have a payoff like that. Like to just have the final girl come out on top, which is why you're next is probably. One of my favorite horror films. Because there are some movies that don't have that kind of a payoff, and I'm just like, oh, I feel unfulfilled.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:06

And it's really just a bad taste to leave in your mouth. And I think even considering the impact that Camp has had, not only on horror but media at large, I would say it's one of like a whole net positive, right? I think it there's so much value that gets added. I think it's it's truly enriching the genre. And I think one of the things that I'm very excited about, and we were talking about Ty West's ex earlier. I feel like his prequel to that film, which is called Pearl and should be out later. I feel like that's gonna be real camp.

SPEAKER_03 1:06:35

Vardon, do you know about this?

SPEAKER_02 1:06:37

I don't, but I know that there was an after-credit scene which I missed because I left the theater too soon.

SPEAKER_03 1:06:42

So there's an after-credit scene which is a trailer for another movie they made because they like had the time and the cast already there in the crew. So they made a prequel called Pearl, and Pearl is the name of the old woman in X.

SPEAKER_02 1:06:55

Who's also played by Mia Goth?

SPEAKER_03 1:06:57

Yes. So it's literally Mia Goth as Pearl, and it's like the origin story of that woman. So that prequel is coming out, and Chris thinks it's gonna be camp, and I really hope she's right.

SPEAKER_02 1:07:07

You know what? It kind of has to be. Going back to X though, I think Britney Snow's entire performance, Camp. Oh yeah. Like literally 100%. Like, I think that's what I she had one of the best performances in the whole truly additional moment of camp, bitch.

SPEAKER_00 1:07:22

Just the facial.

SPEAKER_02 1:07:24

When she pushes her in the water, the gigantic penis reveal.

SPEAKER_03 1:07:28

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 1:07:29

Also camp.

SPEAKER_03 1:07:31

Kid Cuddy. Oh them singing fucking Fleetwood Mac.

SPEAKER_02 1:07:36

Okay. Wait, but also just the the fact that like gators or like crocodiles, whatever, were involved in uh to begin with in a slasher, also camp. I feel like it was so reminiscent of like the 70s era. Like I I just again, it was like a student of camp and therefore able to use it as a tool, like we talked about earlier.

SPEAKER_03 1:07:59

Artfully so.

SPEAKER_02 1:08:00

I was gonna say that on paper it might feel like we have come a long way in terms of just like queerness being portrayed in horror, uh directly and overtly. Like as you were talking about earlier, Chris, like I feel like we're so trained to like read subtext and kind of you know, decode all of these things on our own, and a lot of these things are left open to interpretation. One of the things that um made me so excited to work on wrong turn was that I, as a queer actor, was able to play a queer character, no matter how small the part was, you know. Um, but what was really disheartening was seeing how many people still had a problem with something like that. So I the number of times I saw people call the film woke turn just because the cast was diverse felt so such like it felt so personally offensive because it was like your existence is a problem to so many people. Granted, you know, our queerness wasn't even on full display in the film. It wasn't the focal point, you know? Like we were holding hands, sure, but it wasn't like there was like a gay sex scene, or like you know, like there was no agenda being pushed at all. And people were just so offended by the mere presence of a gay couple. And, you know, to add to that, both the actor who played my partner and I are also people of color. And you know, it's like some pe I I could see that for some people it was like you gotta pick one. You either be gay, it they couldn't handle the fact that there were two queer people of color or queer characters of color in a film, and it was just like, oh, it was so woke garbage being like shoved down our throats. And I was like, Where? We were just people existing, like there was no and so that just kind of reminded me of like how far we still have to go because you know queer characters being a part of a story is still so offensive to so many people. Yeah, that was just my experience with reading some of those reviews, which I probably shouldn't. Don't go on IMDB to read reviews, guys. Just don't I don't trust any of them. I also saw some reviews talk about how it was unrealistic that the group of friends was so diverse. I was like, you clean you guys clearly need different friends because I mean I What reality? Yeah, like do you not see queer people like people of color in your daily lives? Like, are none of your friends like that says more about them than about anything else, but it's just crazy.

SPEAKER_00 1:10:27

Yeah, you're really telling on yourself at that point.

SPEAKER_03 1:10:29

Exactly, yeah. No one would ever believe that all these cool people of color would be friends.

SPEAKER_00 1:10:35

One of the things I know really excited uh excited us was your ability to portray such a character right on, and that was one of the best parts of wrong turn, especially when we had just so freshly watched the original and were thinking about how did this movie age, you know, from the early 2000s. And looking at what horror is moving to and thinking about the progress that we've made, you're absolutely right. There's so much work that's left to do, not only in media, but just in life. I think we've made so much progress, and then there are moments where that progress is being challenged on a regular basis. And it's disheartening, but I think it's something where, you know, we think about intersectionality, we think about different voices coming to the table, and we think about being able to do episodes of our podcasts like this, where we invite you alongside of us to learn, right? And to hear a different perspective and to be able to reflect on how something that has impacted your life, uh, such as a horror movie from the 80s, and how that has been received by so many people in their own respective lived experiences, too.

SPEAKER_03 1:11:38

That was so beautifully said, Chris. You're always such a whiz with words, and then somebody has to follow you up, and then they sound like an idiot, and that's me. I will fall on that sword right now. Uh one thing that I would love to bring to everyone's attention, something that Chris and I are both super excited for, looking into the future of camp and horror and queerness is an upcoming film called They Slash Them. Oh my god. About a conversion therapy camp starring Kevin Bacon. I think all of the elements here are Screaming Camp, the title, the casting, the premise, and I'm so excited to see this movie. It is coming to Peacock uh sometime soon, hopefully.

SPEAKER_00 1:12:14

Which makes it even campier.

SPEAKER_03 1:12:16

Uh-huh. Peacock's inherently queer, gayest bird.

SPEAKER_02 1:12:19

I mean, also it's Blumhouse, right? So you know it's gonna be they're they're not I think Blumhouse has also like has put out a lot of campy projects out in the past.

SPEAKER_03 1:12:29

And a lot of queer projects.

SPEAKER_02 1:12:31

So when I first read the title of that film, I didn't reg my brain didn't register that it was pronounced or like like that you were supposed to say they slash them, which is super brilliant. I mean, I r I got it within a few seconds, but I part of me still wonders whether that was intentional or if it was just a happy accident. Oh, it has to be intentional. Okay, I hope so. And also it literally takes place at camp. Yeah, I mean conversion camp, so that's not camp, but in some ways, I feel like the the like self-awareness around all of it is gonna be good. I don't know the people who are working on it, I just know Kevin Bacon is um in it, but I am super, super excited for it.

SPEAKER_03 1:13:08

I'm looking at the cast and they all look visibly queer. There's gay face, lesbian hands all over the place.

SPEAKER_02 1:13:14

Amazing.

SPEAKER_03 1:13:15

I'm very excited.

SPEAKER_00 1:13:16

Well, we've certainly had so much to talk about here, and camp seems like this daunting task to try to define, but I loved this time spending with the both of you, being able to share our own experiences and our own um understandings of camp as we, you know, really invite our listeners to learn more about it. Now, Verdon, I really want to thank you so much for A, making the time to join us, B, it's being such a great sport. I know we've been keeping you up with this long conversation, and it's been an absolute pleasure just to have you in our company.

SPEAKER_02 1:13:46

Thank you so, so much for having me, but also don't like thank me too much because I feel like I may now want to become like a recurring guest. Just because, yes, we did talk about so much, but there's still so much left to talk about. I feel like I think we discussed like at least five movies that some of like not all of us have seen. So I just feel like I want to talk about all of those. Um, but no, thank you so much for having me.

SPEAKER_00 1:14:10

Absolutely. You have to come back on for Death Becomeser, They Slash Them, and Terrifier 2 at a minimum.

SPEAKER_03 1:14:16

Human centipede. The human centipede, right.

SPEAKER_00 1:14:20

Yes. Well, we're gonna hold you to these commitments. I hope you're prepared. Now, obviously, we talked so much about your work and your art throughout this episode, but where can our listeners find you and learn more about your work?

SPEAKER_02 1:14:30

You know, I admittedly self-promo is not my strongest point, but I make pop music, and you know, I just love that in addition to acting, I have this outlet to be able to express myself. Speaking of camp moments, uh in pop culture, I feel like pop is just such, it it also is kind of not the same as horror, obviously, but it just has so many camp moments. Yeah. And just to be able to make like really fun, dancy pop music is just su it feels like such a privilege to me. And where people can find me, wherever you listen to music. So whether that's Spotify or Apple Music, it's under my name, Vardan Aurora. And I have some new music in the works that's gonna come out later this month, and I'm really excited about that. Uh, and you can also follow me on social media. I am Vardon Aurora on Twitter and Instagram, and um, I will be keeping everyone on there updated with new music as it starts to come out, and I'm really excited. Any new acting projects on the horizon? Um, I do have an acting project on the horizon that I cannot talk about. I'm filming it later this week, so I'm really, really excited. Oh. Yeah, I I yeah, I can't really talk much about it, but um, whenever it does come out, I will for sure be posting about it a lot. So I'm excited for people to see what that's going to be. I'm not I'm so bad at secrets, you guys. Like I'm about to spill any psychic.

SPEAKER_00 1:15:55

Well, don't worry, we'll stop the recording before you break any NDAs. But obviously, the conversation doesn't end here between the three of us, or even you, our dear listener. I hope that this has provoked some kind of thought in you, right? How do you define camp? Where do you stand? What are some of your best connections or memories of camp within horror, and how has that shaped your own lived experiences? Let us know. You can join in on the conversation by hanging out with us for free over in our Discord. You can click the link in the show notes to sign up.

SPEAKER_03 1:16:24

If you've enjoyed listening to this episode, consider becoming one of our patrons. Visit patreon.com slash hackerslash to enjoy more of the show with early access, extended episodes, bonus content, and live shows.

SPEAKER_00 1:16:34

We'll see you next time, folks.

SPEAKER_03 1:16:36

Bye