321: Saw IV (2007)

SPEAKER_01 0:04

Jigstar is a bisexual Virgo. This movie confirms it.

SPEAKER_00 0:12

Greetings and salutations, and welcome to Hacker Slash. If you're joining us again, welcome back. The games have just begun. If this is your first time listening, welcome to the party. We are a horror movie review podcast dedicated to telling you whether a movie is a hack.

SPEAKER_04 0:26

A total joke. A waste of time.

SPEAKER_00 0:28

Or a slash.

SPEAKER_04 0:30

Totally killer, pun intended.

SPEAKER_00 0:32

We believe horror is for everyone, and as such, we're rating these movies with the perspective we've gained from our varying walks of life and the flavors of fear we fancy most. My name is Chris, I'm your friendly neighborhood slasher enthusiast. This week I'm joined by the Super Fly Space Guy Mac.

SPEAKER_03 0:45

If you're here for any other reason than just to assist.

SPEAKER_00 0:48

The classic horror connoisseur Sean.

SPEAKER_04 0:50

Girl loves boy, boy loves girl, boy gets girl pregnant, girl is his baby, boy turns into a serial killer.

SPEAKER_00 0:57

And the Screaming Queen Paris.

SPEAKER_01 0:59

Just lean forward, into the knives with your face.

SPEAKER_00 1:03

This week we're checking out the fourth entry in an iconic franchise that is quickly approaching its 20th anniversary. When last we visited this franchise in episode 129, the notorious jigsaw killer underwent an improvised surgery while testing a man's ability to forgive. While the surgery was a success, he's ultimately killed by his victim, and this week's film looks to explore how his work continues beyond the grave. This time the game ensnares a new pawn, a lieutenant determined to save his colleagues at any cost. Thrust into a labyrinth of trials, he faces challenges that promise to push him to his utmost limits, questioning morality and the will to survive under the shadow of a legacy that refuses to die. This week, after nearly two hundred episodes, we're finally talking about Saw 4. Who's seen this one before?

SPEAKER_04 1:49

Man, I've definitely seen this one before. I think I've seen up until I believe five or six, and that's kind of where I gave up on the series or the series lost me. They could be great movies after that that lie ahead, but at some point there I just stopped watching them. That being said, I didn't remember much of this film or the events that took place going into this one, if I'm being honest.

SPEAKER_03 2:14

Yeah, I have not seen this before. This is now the furthest I've made it into the Saw franchise.

SPEAKER_01 2:19

I think I have seen this before. I'm pretty sure I've seen every Saw movie, but then when they said Saw 10, I was like, there's not 10. Right. So I'm not sure if maybe at some point we'll come across one that I haven't seen, but as I was watching this, I was remembering some parts of it. So I've definitely seen this one, probably in theaters if it was 2007.

SPEAKER_00 2:38

Ooh, yeah, no, I have never seen this one before having to watch it for this podcast. Over in the rewind we did for our patrons covering the original saw, I shared that I love the first film, but then the next two were giving fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice, shame on me. I'm not I'm I'm fucking done with this franchise. So I've been done with this franchise, clearly for almost 200 episodes now. And really going into this, I expected the following convoluted plot, a lot of James Wan signature flashbacks, a lot of green, and super quick disorienting cuts.

SPEAKER_04 3:12

Well, green isn't very far off. And what about gore?

SPEAKER_00 3:15

Well, I mean, that's a given.

SPEAKER_01 3:17

Yeah, but you gotta say it too.

SPEAKER_00 3:19

Yeah, but I feel like I like the gore of it sometimes, but when I think of Saw and the lasting feeling that those last two movies gave me, I think of those four things, and it's really weighing heavily and overshadowing a good experience.

SPEAKER_04 3:35

Okay. I think it's easy to expect just some really gruesome ways of dying, dying from playing these sadistic games that you have very little chance of surviving from. And I think of these films, and I just don't get super excited for some reason. I don't get into watching these people go through some of the shit that they go through, and I don't know how to connect those dots because I do like me some gore. I like things like watching Terrifier because that is a gory ass film, but I feel like terrifier is something I can get into. It's almost like gruesome, campy fun, and some of that shit is gnarly, but I can still have fun with it, and I just feel like the torture aspect of Saw is something that is a little bit less fun and more cringe.

SPEAKER_03 4:23

I don't think I expected fun when going into this. The first movie saw it when it came out. Everything after that, so far to me, has just been gore, torture, mindless violence, and at least somewhat of an attempt at a plot for the most part, but just an attempt.

SPEAKER_01 4:40

Yeah, and at this point, the attempt is really just there for show. I feel like this is where the franchise kid its stride and was like, okay, we need to come in with big traps, horrible look away from the screen, gore. What's the worst possible thing you could ever imagine happening to your human body? We need to have that. And then in between, we'll just have some dialogue between some soap opera actors doing really nothing and just skimming things along so we can get to the next trap. And then at the end, we'll have some flashbacks and say there was a story. So at this point, if that's not what you're in for, you don't have to watch. You know what you're in for when you sit down for saw four.

SPEAKER_00 5:15

That's absolutely true. Because going into this, I had a feeling I knew what I was in for. I watched this actually with our Discord members as a watch party because I thought, if I have to fucking suffer through this, I'm suffering with friends. And that's really the energy that carried me through that whole experience. And side note, if you want to watch these movies with us, join the Discord, come party. There's a link in the show notes for it. Now, during that whole experience, though, I was struck by one major thought and then two major feelings. And that one major thought was, oh, they're really leaning into camp very early here with some specific elements. And I don't know that they realized how campy it was when they were doing it, because I know they tried really hard for it. Now the other two feelings though were intrigue, but then fucking frustration. Because there were elements of this movie that I enjoyed so much more than two and three, but just as it was zigging in a favorable direction, that shit zagged with some bullshit real quick.

SPEAKER_04 6:11

Man. Intrigue, I don't know. Frustration, I get confusion was the feeling that I got in this film because I feel like the story went way off the rails in this one. I feel like the way the film develops the story and these characters specifically, it just feels like a wild ride. It felt a lot of it felt really rushed. A lot of it didn't develop the right way. It was just thrown at you. It really felt like what you said, Paris, we were more focused on getting a bunch of gory scenes and traps and things like that, and less about making it all make sense.

SPEAKER_03 6:48

Yeah, I'm gonna go back to what I expected because what I expected was gore torture, mindless violence, right? And watching the movie, for two-thirds of it, it was basically slow meandering flashbacks with occasional gore torture and mindless violence. And so they really hit the nail on the head. They really went for the saw premise, and they were just like, let's attempt a plot, not quite as good as a porno plot or something, and then let's hit them with the gross stuff, and that's gonna sell it.

SPEAKER_01 7:16

We open with a scalping at the top. They said, Hey, if you're still with us, we know what you're here for, so let's just get right to it.

SPEAKER_00 7:24

Yes, they needed to get right to it, and I was pleasantly surprised by how good it was and how good the gore felt when they got right to it, particularly the really cringy sound design. And I say cringy and people might think, oh no, it's so bad, it's like a secondhand embarrassment. But I mean this shit made my skin crawl while there was skin flopping around. And I think the biggest disappointment for me though ended up being how convoluted the plot was as a whole.

SPEAKER_03 7:54

Yeah, I can a hundred percent feel that I was disappointed by the fact that there was actually an attempt at storytelling here, but I think because it's a fourth installment, it felt like a hacked together retcon sequel instead of a proper expansion.

SPEAKER_00 8:07

Yes, okay. And it's because the movie does something really interesting with how it approaches its sequencing. I won't say anymore to just not spoil anything if you haven't seen it, but it gains a lot for taking a cool approach to its sequencing, but then loses it and loses all its credibility for three things. One, a specific decision they made and one trap to allow certain things to still be audible. And I understand how it adds and makes you feel our protagonists increasing pressure and emotion, but I don't feel like we needed all that as an audience. So that's one. Two, Jigsaw's approach to victim selection was sloppy as hell. And honestly, it was a really loose attempt at reaching. Imagine this man is laid up on a bed, can't reach something, has one of those plastic claw grabber things, lifts it up to go grab it, and then it just falls because he can't even get that out. But then it just had all really, it just had way too much shit going on, but then it still managed to give us not only James Wan signature flashbacks, but unnecessary James Wan signature flashbacks to things we just saw seconds ago. It was just like, what are we doing, guys? It's an overuse.

SPEAKER_04 9:17

Overuse of the James Wan of it all. You know, none of this is really that surprising to me because this is what I remembered from watching this franchise. So after we watched Saw for the rewind, and knowing that we had this movie, Saw 4, coming up, I decided to just get it out of the way and do the refresher and watch Saw 2 and 3 prior to this film. I pretty much watched 2, 3, and 4 back to back over the course of a couple of days.

SPEAKER_01 9:50

Wow.

SPEAKER_04 9:50

Yeah, I know it's a lot. It was a feat.

SPEAKER_01 9:52

Alexis would be proud.

SPEAKER_04 9:54

Yeah, I really just put in the work, but the biggest surprise to me, just watching, I guess you could say four movies, is this was the first one of the four so far that actually just didn't open up straight to a fucking trap. Yeah. That was an interesting turn of events, and that's really the only thing that kind of caught me off guard. The rest, once we got into it, I was like, mmm, and now I get it.

SPEAKER_00 10:20

We also have a different writer here altogether.

SPEAKER_04 10:23

This is true.

SPEAKER_00 10:24

So there are some tonal differences here, and I think what's really interesting is looking even the production of this film, there's a saw bible that these guys should have adhered to, but didn't know existed. So they just went and did their own thing and did it good enough to still get by. I think we've seen people joining franchises late in, and especially when you have a lot of lore, when you have a lot of plot going on, it gets messy. We've seen this in some of the Star Wars sequels and prequel franchises. I get it. But this one is something to behold. It both excels and then colossally fails.

SPEAKER_01 11:01

Yeah, I do remember around this time with my relationship to the franchise, this is when you could kind of see like they're losing the plot, there's contradictions, there's inaccuracies, there's questions, and at this point, you just can't really look too closely at the plot. You just have to be like, sure, that's where I'll suspend my disbelief is like the the timeline of it all and the logistics of it all. I'll I'll check that at the door.

SPEAKER_03 11:26

I think overall, though, the first movie leaves you feeling a certain way the first time you watch it, for sure. But I think as you continue onward, it's really not about the scares anymore. It's not about being a horror movie. It's just about showing you torture and gore and just gruesome stuff. And I think that just leads to a horror movie that's not really, I don't know, full of horror in a way. It's not very scary.

SPEAKER_04 11:49

It's a different type of thing, right? It's horrific, I guess you could say, but to your point, Saw movies to me are not really about scaring you because there is really little to no things that would actually frighten you, I feel like. I think it's all for shock value and cringy moments that stick with you, and maybe trying to be very clever with giving you some kind of a message and things like that, and it's just less about making you jump or give you goosebumps or make the hairs on the back of your neck stand up. That's not Saw's agenda. You know what I mean?

SPEAKER_01 12:24

I disagree. I think this movie is scary, and this is why all Saw movies are scary to me. Because the fact that somebody's imagination could come up with these traps means that this is something that could actually happen to my human body in this life and therefore cause for terror. Anytime you go in a dark alley or like a parking lot, that pig-faced bitch could be hiding behind a car ready to tranquilize you with chloroform, and then you wake up in some hellish nightmare thought up by anyone.

SPEAKER_00 12:54

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 12:54

Humans are so innovative and so nasty and so rude, and that's very scary to me. And this film is a huge reminder of that.

SPEAKER_00 13:02

I said this in our Saw Rewind, and I'll repeat it here, especially now that Paris is with us. This movie is gross, it's not scary, but what is scary is the property that comes from this film in this franchise, specifically Dead by Daylight and playing against the pigface bitch.

SPEAKER_01 13:19

Yep. Very scary. If you've ever played Dead by Daylight against her, you'd be scared because you know what you're in for. Well, actually, no, you don't. You wouldn't know if it was really happening. You would just get chloroformed and wake up in a bear trap, a reverse bear trap.

SPEAKER_00 13:33

It's terrifying. But I think going back to this movie and away from just the intellectual property of it all, I think it has a lot of nerve. And in some ways it's really good because it translates to some originality points. I do enjoy the principle of how they're expanding things. And I think the way that you look at this film and what it does with its sequencing that I was mentioning earlier, I think it really locks in and connects with the rest of the franchise in a really interesting way. And I think for two writers to come into this and see that potential and actually dare to dream it, I think you get some credit. But at some points, and this is where I struggle with this, it feels like a regurgitation of itself. And this one, again, not the it's the first one that Lee Wynell didn't write, but it's also bold for some steps it took in practical effects and some set work to nail some transitions. So I know I'm saying a lot of shit about this movie, but there actually is a lot of good in this movie.

SPEAKER_04 14:30

There is good, and you took literally regurgitated that word like right out of my mouth. Absolutely terrible. But I do find the storyline original. So there is that. Like I think it's interesting, and I think it's a bit unique to carry a story like this. It feels like one continuous story, especially if you watch them back to back. And so for that, I think that's an interesting dynamic that a lot of franchises don't do, or they may hint at, but they don't really follow through, and it's not super consistent. And to have each film's timeline and storyline intertwine, and you know, it's cool, but it can also get a bit confusing. And I just think the way they bring all the films together feels different. So I'm more talking about the originality of how they continue this franchise and lump them together, and maybe less about this specific movie because while part of the writing and the storyline is good, to your point, it does feel in this one specifically that they're just throwing a bunch of regurgitated or recycled shit at you.

SPEAKER_00 15:37

It's leftovers with salt.

SPEAKER_03 15:39

I have a very different take here though. I don't even think it's about leftovers. I think this feels like they got the best fan fiction for Saw 1 through 3 and made a movie from it. They were like, hey, we have a way of tying up loose ends and we have a way of dealing with some storylines, and also we want to try to one-up everything before us, and yeah, let's make a movie from it.

SPEAKER_00 15:59

You know what else started as fanfiction? Fifty shades of gray. Some things we just don't need.

SPEAKER_01 16:04

Mm-hmm. Yeah. Wait, no, that was a testament to why fanfiction is good and should be respected. Sure. Billion dollar in industry fanfiction. Again, I'm gonna come at this from a little bit of a different angle, and I kind of want to draw a comparison to the Final Destination franchise here, where it's like, we have the shtick, it's the traps, or we have the shtick, it's the crazy coincidence sequence of events, Rube Goldberg murders. Once you find the formula, yeah, the formula is regurgitated, but were the traps not original? Did they recycle anything from the kills, which are the highlight, the tent posts of the film, the only thing keeping the film upright, to be clear, was original and solid, and I think very well done.

SPEAKER_04 16:47

That's fair. I like the comparison to Final Destination because that definitely you have to be in that mood because it is just something that once you get the formula to your point, it's just like, okay, I get it.

SPEAKER_00 16:58

Yeah, I can agree with that. I think it's also just reminds me of that show. Basically, it was on the Spike channel, and it was just talking about all these dumb ways that people have died, and that's what it feels like too. And I can respect it, I can appreciate it. I think something that is as much of a mixed bag as the rest of this movie has been is actually its ending. Because I feel like it's supposed to hit a big oh shit moment, but I wasn't surprised by a certain component of it at all. And then the plot was so convoluted that I couldn't really enjoy the reveal of how everything ties together. So ultimately ended up lacking the original punch I got from the first saw. But I do know that people watch this, and even people watch this in our watch party, and they're like, oh my gosh, this was incredible the first time I saw it.

SPEAKER_03 17:44

See, this was the first time I saw this, and I found the ending to be probably the most redemptive part of the movie, because I did not expect them to do with the story what they did. I'm not saying they necessarily nailed it and did it perfectly, I just was completely unexpected, and also put a good bow in some ways because the rest of it it was kind of meandering, and so they finally get to a point where they're like, you know what, we're actually gonna do something with the story here, and I commend them for that.

SPEAKER_04 18:09

I see what the film is trying to do with this ending. I don't think it's like a terrible ending. There's this whole the beginning is really the end, give you this big twist by the way. I don't know. It just the way it was delivered was we keep saying stuff like convoluted. I think it felt a little bit chaotic, a little bit rushed, and I think they tried, they thought they were gonna do something really clever like they did in the first saw, and it's not that it was a bad idea, it was just not executed as good as it did in the first saw. And so it's not a bad ending. I just think they thought they were doing something way bigger than they actually did.

SPEAKER_01 18:47

Yeah, I don't necessarily think the ending of this film is the best part of it. I think this kind of, yeah, it was a good idea with an interesting execution, I would say. I think confusing is a little bit appropriate here as well as chaotic. Obviously, at the end you get it, but getting there, you're kind of like, huh, okay, oh, okay, sure. I left the ending being like, sure, fine, okay, whatever. And that's not the best way to feel at the end of a film.

SPEAKER_00 19:14

It really gives some major womp womp energy, and we'll see how that translates into our ratings. But before we get there, Sean, how would you describe the gore score?

SPEAKER_04 19:23

Well, I feel like at this point in the franchise, the gore really does ramp up. It delivers some cringy, hard-to-watch moments where you want to look away, but you just can't because it is pretty well done. There's enough limb-ripping, flesh-tearing, overall scenes of bodily harm to satisfy your bloodthirsty hearts because this one is definitely getting a high gore score.

SPEAKER_00 19:50

And what about the animal report?

SPEAKER_03 19:52

I think we're all good in the hood here except for pig masks.

SPEAKER_00 19:55

Let's go ahead and get into our ratings then. Saw 4 from 2007. Was it a hack or a slash? Make your choice.

SPEAKER_03 20:02

I'll play this game. Saw 4 is a weird one. It's mostly a slow and boring cut-together flashback clip show, but now and then the filmmakers throw in the occasional torture and gore to try to make up for that. I think the best parts of the movie are when we actually get to story and character work. And even that has to be kind of patched together and sold to us retroactively. The ending, I think, performs a commendable feat of giving us some satisfying finality to some storylines. It's just not quite enough to save Saw 4 from being a hack.

SPEAKER_04 20:30

Interesting. I didn't think you were going down that way, but there is a point in the franchise where I started to kind of fall off. And I think I found that point because this is where the story just starts to get a little bit too wild for me. I think this film does a lot that is pretty good. I think visually with the gore and the traps and all that. It's really, I don't want to say not fun, but it's really a good film to watch if you're in for that kind of gory atmosphere. But what happens is it really just feels like they subbed out some plot and character development. That's where I kind of differ from you, Mac, a little bit for some gore and more kills. So I don't see the value in the plot and the character development. I just see that they wanted to throw more kills at you or just more gore at you. And I feel like that's a shame because that's one of the things that I really admired about the franchise, especially with the first two films. I loved how the story unfolded in the first and second saw films. But the third one started getting weird, and this one just lost me somewhere along the way. It's not that it's a bad film, it's just trying too hard to do too much, and the film really suffers because of it. I think that the other thing that didn't sit right was the choices it made with some of the violence that shows up in this film. That didn't sit right with me. And again, not the worst movie out there, but what hurts this film is when you put it up. Against the first couple of Saw films, this one doesn't hold up. And so if it was a standalone film, it might maybe slip by, but because it's in this franchise, it's a hack.

SPEAKER_01 22:12

Okay, a relative contextual hack is a hack nonetheless, and I think should be respected. Now, I'm gonna slash this movie, everybody, because I am a fan of the Saw franchise, and this is a very good Saw film. It delivers on all of the things I want from Saw, which is basically two movies in one, kind of braided together. The first movie is just a montage of the most horrible, gruesome bodily pain that could ever be imagined by my brain or someone else's. And that scares me and also makes me feel alive, which reminds me that I'm alive. The second thing is a cheesy, melodramatic, kind of campy episode of Law and Order that makes little to no sense almost ever. And you just go along for the ride and wonder, oh, I wonder what happened to that actress. And I definitely did wonder what happened to several of the actresses in this film. So for those reasons, I think Saw delivers, Saw 4 delivers on all of the promises that it has made, and also says, hey, look, if we can do this with the ending, what can't we do as far as our narrative goes? And I think that really is what sprung the franchise into being a 10-film-long empire that it is today, was when we made the choice here that said, you know what, let's just go with it.

SPEAKER_00 23:32

For as much as I've knocked this movie so far, I did enjoy it more than Saw 2 and Saw 3. The unfortunate thing is that's just not saying that much. And it has some promise, which makes me feel like maybe, just maybe, I might like what's to come if this movie just gets out of the immediate 2004 to 2007 of it all. But for now, this movie and really this whole franchise continues to be plagued by the same muddy morality that seems like it's supposed to be thought-provoking. And the only thought it provokes, though, is did we actually fucking need this? And it doesn't take long to ponder or even consider because in most cases the answer is just straight up blatantly no. There are so many things in this movie that I was like, that's rad. There are a lot more things in this movie where I was like, hmm, unnecessary, could have done without it, would have been a better movie. And what it earns in good faith, it loses with bad decision making. And honestly, there's something about the whole movie that just gives this insidious, just beneath the surface, good old boys' club energy for me. And it might just be like the overwhelming ooze of toxic masculinity, male bravado, ego, pride, whatever, but either way you slice it, it's a hack for me. And with that, Soft War has earned three hacks in one slash. For now, you can find this movie streaming online. Go check it out, and then join us in the second half so we can unpack all of our thoughts together. We'll see you in a bit.

SPEAKER_02 25:21

Yet, you cower behind mundane exercises, superficial retreats that skim the surface of what true collaboration demands. It's time for a transformation. A rebirth through the fires of adversity. Never again will you have to tell your team that you expected more. Welcome to Jigsaw's Places and Spaces, the ultimate test of your team's unity, intellect, and will to survive. Picture this: your group ensnared in a web of challenges meticulously designed to probe the depths of your fears, to dismantle the facades you presented for groups. Here, you'll face tasks that demand more than just analytical minds. They require an waiver trust, a kind that's forged in the face of real peril. Each choice, each move is a testament to your collective strength or your shared weaknesses. Fail to unravel the puzzles, to see the significance of each piece of this elaborate game. You'll find the stakes are more than just your pride. Emerge victorious, and the bonds formed in these trials will be unbreakable. Your team will not just survive, it will thrive. Tempered by the kind of trial that reveals the very essence of your beings. This is not for the faint of heart nor the weak. It's an invitation to those daring enough to confront the ultimate question: Are you merely colleagues or are you survivors? Choose wisely. Your decision will determine if you're merely playing the game or if the game is playing you.

unknown 26:43

Exhaust places and spaces.

SPEAKER_02 26:49

Let the game begin.

SPEAKER_04 27:27

I feel like the gore definitely gives in this movie. The film delivers the goods. It's full of shrapnel flying, face shooting, autopsies, and impalements. So there are plenty of kills to talk about. Do you all see what I see? Feel what I feel. Let's make our choice. What were your favorite traps or kills?

SPEAKER_00 27:49

I'm going to just say right here, right now, that tangentially related to the gore, but actually coming up for me for production element and scene is that whole autopsy scene. I'm gonna get there. I have so much to say, especially with the flop of it all. My favorite trap is actually going to be the head crushing ice cubes for Donnie Wahlberg. Because I'm not a huge fan of the Wahlbergs.

SPEAKER_01 28:14

It's great to watch a Wahlberg go. Just because of that. Oh my god.

SPEAKER_00 28:22

Not just because of that, but because it's so hopeless, and then it's like, listen, guys, if we really just fucking paid attention to the goddamn instructions, everything would be fine.

SPEAKER_04 28:34

This is how it goes every single fucking time. If you just follow the fucking rules, you might be okay, but no one can just fucking calm the fuck down and follow the rules. But that was fucking brutal. I gotta say though, I didn't expect that to happen. I wasn't expecting that at all.

SPEAKER_00 28:54

I think they do a really good job of pointing out that it's gonna happen really early on when they're like taking the moment to obsess the whole situation. But Paris, I really need an analysis, a comprehensive analysis. Maybe I can get with you in Binks on this. Every person in these saw traps who's being tested, their zodiac sign based on performance. Because not a narry, a fucking Virgo or Capricorn to be found, I think.

SPEAKER_01 29:22

Jigsaw's the Virgo bitch. I wrote that in my notes. I wrote Jigsaw is a bisexual Virgo. This movie confirms it.

SPEAKER_00 29:30

Okay, but not one being tested.

SPEAKER_01 29:33

Yeah, I don't think any Virgos were tested in these in this franchise.

SPEAKER_03 29:37

You stole it right from me, Chris. That kill. I think Sean, you may have mentioned like not expecting it to happen. I think what caught me off guard was like how drastic it was, right? Because it wasn't like uh something fell on him and he collapsed to the floor. It was like an immediate blow-up of his head, like a watermelon, just like poop, head's gone, just smooshed. And that was simultaneously shocking, but also kind of satisfying at the same time because you expected that he's gonna walk in the room, something else is going to happen, and he's gonna be like, no, don't do it. No, it was like boom, head exploded, done. There's no time, we're not even gonna talk about it. And that was fantastic. But I think if I had to pick a second favorite kill, it's gonna be Jeff, because he gets taken out in such a lame way by the agent. He's made it through now two Saw movies, and then pop pop, he's down.

SPEAKER_00 30:25

Technically, just the one, but legend has it, he's still walking those halls. I'm slow as hell. Oh no, just a meandering stroll, really.

SPEAKER_03 30:34

Oh my gosh.

SPEAKER_00 30:35

Imagine walking through two fucking movies.

SPEAKER_03 30:37

Just strolling along. Have you seen my daughter?

SPEAKER_00 30:40

Making my way downtown, down these halls.

SPEAKER_01 30:43

My favorite kill has to be Brenda. She had the ponytail trap, which I think was very rude, creative, and anti-feminist of Jigsaw. And the fact that she had big tits for no reason both appealed to me and had me raise an eyebrow. I think she was really not set up for success with her trap because literally all she could do was try to kill a cop with a steak knife. She's what? He has a gun. You gave him the gun. That's not, I don't think, fair to her. But I think the best thing about her death was that she was literally scalped bald and then thrown through a window into the next scene. Like the way they did that transition was so they did her so dirty. It was wild.

SPEAKER_00 31:25

Imagine being so discarded. You don't even want to continue to see what happens to you. You just are used to move the story forward to the next scene. Oh my god. I am still amazed that that was all done practically and no fucking CGI whatsoever.

SPEAKER_01 31:42

That scalp was so nasty.

SPEAKER_00 31:44

Oh, I mean the transition. I don't know about the scalp.

SPEAKER_03 31:47

Oh. That's wild that you could do that kind of a transition without the use of CGI or something.

SPEAKER_00 31:53

You just build two sets, two rooms next to each other. There's another moment where it also happens with Jill with a flashback and an interrogation room. She's just running around and sitting into a different chair.

SPEAKER_01 32:04

Wow. That's art.

SPEAKER_00 32:05

It is. It's a technical fee. It's a modern Marvel. Too bad it's wasted in this movie.

SPEAKER_04 32:11

I was gonna say we we mentioned great ones. I do think the Mausoleum trap was an interesting trap. I think this film went in a direction that gave you some really creative traps and games that were really, I feel like, not set up for success. And I get the whole play by the rules you might survive thing, but these traps really were giving you're pretty much fucked.

SPEAKER_01 32:36

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 32:37

And this mausoleum trap was fucked. Like it was hilarious, but it was fucked. Like you got one person with their eyes sewn shut, one person with their mouth sewn shut, and obviously they're not gonna communicate well, and it just turned out to be a complete shit show.

SPEAKER_01 32:55

It was so poetic.

SPEAKER_00 32:56

It's an absolute corporate team building exercise. You and I could technically achieve a similar effect at work one day for team building. We could absolutely do this with a little less blood.

SPEAKER_04 33:09

Yeah. Outside of that, not saying favorite kill. I'm gonna throw that out there this time. But just when you fucking thought we were out of fuck them kids, we get pulled right back in, and this time the kid didn't even have a fucking chance, not even making it out of the fucking womb.

SPEAKER_00 33:25

Yeah, famed another time of a half point on the scale for a fetus.

SPEAKER_01 33:30

Yeah, that miscarriage, honestly, very sad.

SPEAKER_00 33:35

Again, the soft franchise hates women.

SPEAKER_01 33:37

And children.

SPEAKER_00 33:39

I mean, I get it. It's his whole lore and his whole reason for being evil. Sure. I actually, you know, and the further exploration of the soft franchise hating women, Ivan's kill. What a frustrating experience this was. Because that entire trap, do I agree with it on paper? Yeah. Absolutely. Him having to choose between his eyes or complete dismemberment. Great. They did not need to continue playing the audio from these victims the entire time. Absolutely fucking disgusting.

SPEAKER_04 34:11

That was one of my least favorite parts of this film. Like it was just too much and overdone and went way too far.

SPEAKER_00 34:19

Yeah. There was enough there to show us what the deal was. We could have played a little bit of the video with Ivan climbing onto the bed to understand what was happening here, but we didn't need it. We didn't need it to continue. You take everything else out. We got it. We're good. Fuck Ivan. Get rid of him. Dismember him. This is fine.

SPEAKER_01 34:39

Okay, to play maybe a little bit of Devil's Advocate here, they might have been trying to use that as a way to leverage a sweeter death sequence because that did motivate me to enjoy him dying more. So that was an effect of it as well. But I can see how it could have been too far. I didn't realize that they were playing the audio of it in the background, maybe because my speakers weren't that loud.

SPEAKER_04 35:02

Oh, just so the yeah, the audio, the snapshots of the faces. Oof.

SPEAKER_00 35:07

Yeah, no, it was a lot. It was honestly too much for me personally, just given things. But it's one of those where it's like you start out and you're feeling for Ivan because he seems like a regular ass guy who's there with a dog that he likes, kicking people out of his fucking little motel job that he's working. But then to reveal what he's actually like, but then to see this motherfucker have the nerve to say, it was a mistake, I've already paid for this. No, you haven't. So this is where this movie is both at its best and then also at its worst because it ratchets up and you're like, Holy shit, wow, okay, yeah. Yeah, I get it. Yes, Jigsaw, I do see what you see. But then it just takes it a level too far. Jigsaw, you're no better. Look at the women you've had in your traps.

SPEAKER_03 35:57

I think talking about the the traps brings me to my favorite production element here, and this is surprising considering how I've torn down this movie. But if you're a fan of realistic gore, the effects here were absolutely on point. They're just absolutely disgusting for the sake of being disgusting, but they really just went all out and they just really sent it in this film. I think in Br and Saw the original, we don't need that much, right? It's really about the characters and their situation and them trying to deal with it. When you get a little bit of gore, it goes a long way. But then we continue on and the gore increases, and now you got to go even more over the top. And for them to do it in such a realistic way, I mean, the opening scene is absolutely disgusting, but it works so well because you, if you know to expect it, you have high expectations. You want to see stuff that looks real. I'm not particularly someone who likes that kind of stuff, but if you're gonna do it, do it 110%. And that's what they did here, 100%, 150%, honestly.

SPEAKER_01 36:57

I totally agree, Mac. There's one thing that Saw will always deliver on, and that is the gore. If you're gonna do it, make me feel it. And when I see it on from Saw, I'm like, ow, I feel that, and I hate it. Thank you. Next. I guess I'll have to pick a different thing. My other favorite production element then would have to be, I think just like the general setting of the Gideon meat packing plant as a place. It feels very saw, it feels very filthy and so rancid, and there's so many pipes, and it's what are all these pipes for? And I think it's also a level in Dead by Daylight that I've spent a lot of time in running from killers, so I guess I have a little bit of nostalgia associated with the space. But it's you know you're in for a good Saw movie if we make our way back to the meat plant.

SPEAKER_00 37:40

Yeah, I was really about to ask you until you mentioned it, is it because of the Dead by Daylight of it all?

SPEAKER_01 37:45

It's not not. I've died so many times there in so many ways.

SPEAKER_00 37:50

Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_01 37:50

It's a great place to be murdered. It's like a great setting for a horror movie because it's just so ugh, and you know there's probably like one of these less than 10 miles away from you.

SPEAKER_04 37:58

The set design, the gore, all of it. Very, very good. But I'll continue to talk about it because my favorite element of this film was the creativity of those seamless transitions, because there's a few or maybe two or three throughout the film, and I think that it was really well done. To your point, right? They didn't use any digital fuckery to make that shit happen. They literally just creatively built their sets like back to back, right next to each other, so they can just move the camera seamlessly from one to the next in one shot without having to stop. And that's some dedication and some work ethic that I can respect. I I do think obviously gore spot on, those those effects are great. The set design, I've already talked about the story and how they write that shit and make it intertwine, and that's really creative, as convoluted as it might be in this film. But those transitions, I think you can maybe say that they felt a little bit funny at time like at times, but I just think it was really creative, and I thought it was pretty cool to watch.

SPEAKER_00 39:05

Yeah, see, the transitions are the exact thing I'm referring to, where I mentioned earlier, I felt like they started leaning into camp more without realizing what they were doing. Because some of these transitions, you know, you dial it up like three percent more and it's malignant.

SPEAKER_03 39:21

True. Yeah, and I love that. They do give it almost like a comic book to movie feel. They did it more, it's like we're watching Sin City or something. Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 39:30

Man, I can't remember the last time I saw Sin City. But speaking of desaturation, the entire approach to that opening scene has what I think is actually my favorite production element, which is its sound. But I'm thinking about the desaturation because holy shit was that blood vibrant. It felt like everything was washed out, and I know that it wasn't just in black and white, we have some really muted colors in there, but what a phenomenal scene and what a phenomenal way to start this movie off. But for me, carving into his body, the flopping of the skin, peeling that body open, peeling his scalp and his entire face down, and the sounds and the squishiness of it all, all the way through to the musical score hitting after the decoroner says get homicide here now, chills.

SPEAKER_04 40:24

The score slapped.

SPEAKER_00 40:26

It really did. I was like, okay, this is a point where I might actually like this movie. Holy shit, okay, way to have a strong start.

SPEAKER_04 40:35

Yeah, that was an intense scene. I remember thinking that exact thought of just watching that, and you're right, like it's just the I guess it's just the bright lights of you know the room and just shining down, and it's a dead body, it's pale white skin, it's bright white, fluorescent lights, and all this shit, right? So the red really pops, the flesh being torn apart really flops, the sound of all of it pops, and then the score just hits, and I in that moment I was like, damn, it's really setting a tone, and I was here for it in that exact moment. The whole thing from start to finish, every element that went into that was spot on.

SPEAKER_03 41:15

I know we we mentioned earlier one of the most bombastic kills of this movie with the uh ice to the head, but I gotta say, that whole like setup and everything was my favorite scene. One, there's a lot to look at in that room. They literally show us every corner of the room to make sure it's really clear what's about to happen, right? But they're just saying he is if he comes through the door, it's game over. And they're yelling, don't come through the door. He even shoots at him and hits him so that he doesn't come through the door and he still charges through, and then the head smoosh happens, and I and I love that. But it's just it's good because there's finally action, and we spent the rest of the movie getting flashbacks to however many years ago, trying to learn the story in reverse form because time is a flat circle, and that's fine and everything, but finally we're to the meat and potatoes of this movie, and that to me was just very satisfying.

SPEAKER_04 42:05

That was a good scene, but speaking of flashbacks, there is that flashback scene where we see Jill's clinic, right? And during that flashback, I really enjoyed that because you get to actually see some of Jigsaw's early victims. So you get to see Paul from the first film if you caught it. You get to see Donnie, right? Who was, I think, Amanda's cellmate. You get to see Gus from the second film. I thought it was really cool. Maybe call it fanfare, Easter eggs, whatever, but I just think that little flashback scene was really cool to watch and just to pull out the little things that it was giving you there.

SPEAKER_01 42:43

I want to say my favorite scene, I'm torn between two. The opening trap, because I feel like that was like a perfect little, like bite-sized, tight three-minute kill. Great trap, great creativity there, really interesting dynamics. I do think the guy with his mouth stitched closed could have still spoken. Just help me out, just like calm the fuck down. Like, I don't know. I think a little more attempt could have been given there, but I went with it.

SPEAKER_00 43:09

He could have just ripped open his stitches earlier.

SPEAKER_01 43:11

Yeah, exactly. But then to rip them up at the end, that was the gag that got us into the title sequence. So it was like, okay, cute, we get it. But then the other option is like Jigsaw's first kill and how simple and horrible and rancid it was, and then how it afterwards didn't quite result in the impact that he wanted to make on his victim. So then he just sidesteps him and he lunges into a big twisted ball of barbed wire and dies. That was like so funny. He was very much like, hmm, interesting. I did this to this man, and he's not happy to see me afterwards. I'll note this for the future. And then he just tosses him in that little bin.

SPEAKER_00 43:46

Guess I gotta make sure he's dead next time.

SPEAKER_03 43:49

Yeah. He came at him with the whole like come to daddy arms. All right, come on over, hug me, be thankful that I just did this to you. And he's like, uh, no. Out of his damn mind.

SPEAKER_00 44:00

Oh geez. He really fucking is out of his damn mind. And that's exactly my issue with Jigsaw. Fifty-two at the time of death, probably seventy-two or eighty-two by the time he's recast in these sequels and prequels that we got the rest of this fucking franchise. But this man has a lot of nerve picking the people he picks. I get it. Some of them, real obvious. Ivan, fuck that guy. Terrible. Briggs, just a good cop, just a person who cares. Also, I'm sorry, you want to actually trap a battered wife because what she didn't fight back?

SPEAKER_01 44:35

Yeah, that was interesting. The victim blaming of all that. I was like, mmm.

SPEAKER_04 44:40

That was, yeah, that yeah, I guess that is, yeah, victim blaming. That it was just such an interesting choice. Because obviously, you know, the husband got all of his major arteries impaled while hers were conveniently missed. But like, why did she have to go through that? Why didn't she get to make the choice of whether he lives or dies and she didn't have to get impaled?

SPEAKER_00 45:00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 45:01

That would have made more sense.

SPEAKER_00 45:02

That could have been something, but it's as if the pain she's lived with her whole life is not enough. Fuck this guy.

SPEAKER_03 45:09

But this is fake jigsaw. This is not real jigsaw. Okay, all right. This is knockoff jigsaw. You know, so it feels different. Yeah. This is the great value jigsaw. And so as you're watching it, even the detectives and the agents are commenting on how things don't quite add up. And so we're all we all know because we've got the opening scene. So we know what happened, and we saw saw three. So we know that it's not him, most likely, right? And when we get to the end and they give this that completely expected ending, we're like, okay, it wasn't him. It's great value, jigsaw, awesome. But try harder, bro. If you're gonna pretend to be him, do a little better, at least. I don't know.

SPEAKER_00 45:51

No, no, no, no, no. Listen here. How many times do we blame CEOs and billionaires for the fucking deeds of the people who work beneath them? Absolutely fucking not. Because you cannot tell me that with the precision of his whole fucking your partner's gonna take an innocent man's life today, that he doesn't know every fucking step of every fucking d deal that's happening here and that he's also not endorsing it. No fucking way. You can't tell me that this is some shit where Hoffman or Amanda are just going rogue, because it's bullshit. Either way, he is still at the head of the table. He is still the one who's signing off on all this shit. Now, some people setting up the traps, I get it. Adam's key, we talked about it this in the rewind episode. It's fastened in such a way that he never really has a chance to escape because his means of escape is done out. And then we have the reveal that Amanda rigged certain traps to be inescapable. So that stuff I get because that comes down to the actual execution. But selecting this woman was a choice at the very beginning. And it's disgusting.

SPEAKER_03 47:02

Did he select her though? This seems unclear to me because it seemed like this detective planned pretty much almost all the kills of this movie himself.

SPEAKER_00 47:11

So you think he did everything himself without any participation or oversight from Jigsaw?

SPEAKER_03 47:16

So I think he got the guidebook on like how to do these things. I don't know that he was necessarily given all the direction on why he should do them and to whom. It was like Legos, and then he just had to show up. Yeah, he got the flat pack version of Jigsaw, basically.

SPEAKER_04 47:30

See, this is where I feel like the story suffers because you're just are left trying to figure out what the fuck is happening, why is it happening, who the fuck is doing the fuck. You know what I mean? I get the premise of this movie of trying to get you to believe that Rig is the one that's being groomed to be Jigsaw, and then it tries to give you the beginning is the end reveal that Hoffman or whatever is the guy that's already been groomed and is already doing the things and whatnot, and then you get the bigger reveal that this fucking movie takes place parallel in timeline to Saw 3, and so then you're left wondering who is doing all of this. Is this all Hoffman? Does he have a like accomplice? Is he being guided by John? I don't know what's happening here. Is it Amanda? Who knows?

SPEAKER_00 48:24

You know what it is? It's the classic Palpatine, Dooku, Grievous, and the Separatist War and Star Wars.

SPEAKER_04 48:32

What the fuck? Not you bringing the fucking Star Wars to this shit.

SPEAKER_00 48:37

That's exactly what this shit is. Palpatine, aka John Kramer, is pulling the fucking strings from afar while Dooku and Grievous are the fucking figureheads who are actually executing and orchestrating the fucking plan. But you better believe not a single fucking thing happens, minus some minor missteps and execution, without the input of Palpatine. AKA Jigsaw, aka that motherfucker knew who the victims were. He also had to record the tapes and the voiceover for every fucking victim. So he knew. So he knew.

SPEAKER_01 49:10

Literally that part.

SPEAKER_04 49:12

Literally that part. That is true. That's a great point. That is a great point.

SPEAKER_01 49:16

Yeah. And he was alive for all of it. He was literally running the show. Chris, you're right. Logistics. He knew about the mom and the daughter. He knew. And was like, that bitch didn't leave to protect her kid, probably because she would have died. Kill your husband, bitch. Like what? No, sir.

SPEAKER_03 49:34

What?

SPEAKER_01 49:35

At this point, the franchise asks you to not ask the question who is doing what and why. And that's a big ask. I get that.

SPEAKER_03 49:43

Yeah, they I I I don't know if this is just like an error in the writing, perhaps, but they seem to lose they lose consistency though. Because I think when you see the first saw that comes out, and it's like such a big reveal at the very end, all the planning that went into this, it's so different from everything that comes after. Because after they just create so many problems for themselves, and then to solve it, they're just kind of like uh brush it with broad strokes, it'll be okay.

SPEAKER_04 50:09

Too many holes in the plot for sure going forward.

SPEAKER_00 50:13

One thing that was not a glaring hole was Hoffman, because I think we all fucking saw that coming, right?

SPEAKER_01 50:19

Right.

SPEAKER_00 50:19

Even his earliest pieces of dialogue are giving I am an apprentice. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 50:24

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 50:24

Again, maybe it's just the Star Wars in me. But that motherfucker was obvious. So it was not a surprise at the end when it's revealed he was never actually in danger.

SPEAKER_04 50:33

That's what I'm saying. They they tried to do too much, and they really thought that they had us. Like they really thought they had this big moment, and in reality, they really didn't because in doing too much they gave us too much. You know what I mean? That's the biggest, the biggest flaw there, I feel like. I don't know.

SPEAKER_01 50:53

It was not a reveal. Jigsaw loves a reveal, and a lot of these reveals were good, but that one was not a reveal.

SPEAKER_03 50:59

You gotta keep it simple. Saw one, you keep it simple. We got basically two characters that we're focused on, and that works. And Saw two and Saw 3, we start expanding and we start creating more problems. The same goes for many other horror movies as well, especially when you start getting into 10 different movies all on the same franchise, where you just start digging holes that you then have to find yourself a way out of. And so they they really need to straighten things out, go simpler, make things a little bit easier, but make them more interesting.

SPEAKER_04 51:31

You know what else I didn't really gravitate to in this film is this whole backstory of John Kramer. Here's the thing: I feel like it's almost this forced feeling of empathy for him, or it's trying to make you feel empathy for this character. It just didn't need to be there. I didn't need to see it, I don't want to see it, I don't want to know. It's maybe not on the same level, but Chris, do you want Michael to be humanized? No. Do you want to understand why Michael's doing what he's doing? No, no, I don't want to know why fucking John Kramer is doing the fucking things that he's doing. I don't want to know. I get it. He's I can see now why he's an angry motherfucker. He's had a rough go. Cool. Thanks. Didn't need to see it, and now it's ruined.

SPEAKER_00 52:22

I also cannot feel empathy for a skeleton who doesn't emote.

SPEAKER_01 52:26

Yeah. And it's also you find out his motivation for everything, and the answer reveals that it's like, oh, so he's just a dick? And like, where do we go from there? Is this a sympathetic killer? No, it's just like, oh, he's like an asshole who's like mad that some stuff happened. Oh god, now he's taking it out on everybody in the most sick and twisted ways and creating a legacy of pain forevermore.

SPEAKER_00 52:47

Again, he orchestrated the conception of his child to be a specific zodiac sign on a specific day.

SPEAKER_01 52:57

Chinese zodiac.

SPEAKER_00 52:59

And again, under the Chinese zodiac.

SPEAKER_01 53:01

Virgo.

SPEAKER_00 53:02

So there is so much, so much that he's done. And when there is a miscarriage, he cares not about the health of his wife. He cares not about how this is affecting her as someone who was creating life and actually enduring the physical impacts of this. But he was so upset that he lost a child, but also that well, his planning went to waste. This fucking guy. He just cannot handle when his plan does not go according to how his how he designed it. And that's the kind of person he is.

SPEAKER_01 53:37

Me?

SPEAKER_00 53:38

Yeah. Yeah. He needs some kind of flexibility, Paris.

SPEAKER_01 53:42

When something deviates from the plan into the traps, all of you. The wife was a weird kind of random bitch.

SPEAKER_00 53:50

Jill.

SPEAKER_01 53:51

What was her whole thing? Was she acting like that on purpose? Like little wooden, I would say.

SPEAKER_00 53:58

If you're married to that fucking stiff board of a husband, maybe you would be too.

SPEAKER_01 54:01

Yeah. What was their love making like?

SPEAKER_00 54:04

It wasn't. It was a fucking turkey baster.

SPEAKER_01 54:07

No. Uh ew, he's so brittle and dry. When they opened on his feet, I said, get me out of here.

SPEAKER_00 54:15

Okay. Actually, Paris, you take me to the worst part of this fucking movie.

SPEAKER_01 54:20

No.

SPEAKER_00 54:21

I mentioned earlier that the opening scene is fucking great and I loved it. But I'm sorry. Old men cadaver chest hair, already gross. Close-up of the feet, hairy feet, horrendous. But then they say, Hold on, kids, we're not done. We get cadaver dick.

SPEAKER_04 54:39

Cadaver dick.

SPEAKER_00 54:40

We didn't need to see it. We didn't need to see it.

SPEAKER_01 54:42

I didn't ever want to see Jigsaw's pieces like that. No.

SPEAKER_00 54:46

Absolutely never. It was too much.

SPEAKER_01 54:49

It was the movie Powder.

SPEAKER_00 54:51

Okay. A movie with a complicated history that you have been very vulnerable about.

SPEAKER_01 54:56

Okay, but don't you have to come up with the best part? You hacked it.

SPEAKER_00 54:59

Listen, I still needed to say that.

SPEAKER_01 55:01

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 55:02

Because that scene is still the best part. However, the worst part is the gross fucking dick. Absolutely.

SPEAKER_01 55:08

Ugh.

SPEAKER_00 55:09

Yeah. Best part, the floppiness of the skin. That's not the dick. But like the scalp being peeled. That's what it is.

SPEAKER_03 55:16

Uh-huh. Oh my. Sure. I don't know. When they put the uh the covering back on, we all said thank you. That's right where it belongs. Cover that corpse up. I I think the best part of the movie is that kind of chaotic wrap-up of saw two and three at the very end. I think I did not expect them to do this like interlacing, interweaving kind of situation. And I like that from them. Normally we just get flashbacks. And for the most of the movie we did, but flashbacks were lazy. Parallel storytelling is where it's at. And so I was like, oh man, somebody did a good thing here. We had the bad stuff. We had 10,000 flashbacks throughout this entire film. But at the very end, a good idea was just like a shining light.

SPEAKER_01 55:57

Trying to think of a worse part of this movie, and I'm trying to be objective about that. Okay, there was that random scene where they went through a Chinese festival and it was just a bunch of fast cuts of a non-white culture, and it was like, this is scary, isn't it? Whoa. And I was like, what is this? What kind of fever dream fantasy are you trying to create here? And what is the purpose of it? Because it ultimately served none. It was just a weird little vaguely anti-Asian sequence. Did anyone else feel that?

SPEAKER_04 56:23

It did feel a little out of place for sure. The best part for me is honestly whatever is left of the investigation aspect of the film. Because despite how some things you could get ahead of or guess or what have you, I do really enjoy attempting to solve the puzzle while watching the film. You know what I mean? Like just the whole that whole gritty, gruesome, dark, detective type vibe, I really get into. And so I think that's one of the better parts of this film, and the better parts of the franchise as a whole is just getting to be a part of that.

SPEAKER_03 57:01

I I really wish they would aim for seven, but with jigsaw traps. That's the standard I want from the Saw franchise.

SPEAKER_01 57:08

Oh wow. That would be nice. Don't get me wrong, I would take that for sure. But I think there's a certain charm to how stupid all the acting is in this and the story and the characters. It's like a it's such a soap. It's like such a daytime soap opera.

SPEAKER_00 57:22

Well, I don't like daytime soap operas, and I think that's perhaps why this movie does not hit for me, and it's also why I will never fucking watch it again.

SPEAKER_04 57:32

Never. Wow. That's hardcore. A little harsh. Never.

SPEAKER_00 57:37

Never. I will never watch this again. Absolutely not. Because it's too convoluted. Now, an addendum. Will I watch a supercut of my favorite parts of this movie? Absolutely.

SPEAKER_04 57:49

Oh, not the Chris supercuts.

SPEAKER_00 57:51

But I am not gonna suffer through the unnecessary complexities of this movie. Especially when I know a couple movies from now, this shit's just gonna get a flashback to previously on saw.

SPEAKER_04 58:02

We love a good previously, you know? Previously on saw.

SPEAKER_00 58:06

And that's what you missed on saw.

SPEAKER_04 58:08

It's hard to give this one a whole lot of rewatch value. I I guess if you're watching the franchise in a marathon of sorts, I get it. That's you know, it it's expected for sure. I can see myself if I have to watch the whole franchise again. Obviously, I'm gonna have to get through this one, but outside of that, this one, you know, it has all of the gore and torture, and then it throws in the whole sexual abuse thing that we're talking about. If you're if you're just gonna choose to be a violent film, don't show us a woman getting her scalp ripped off and a rape dungeon in the same movie. Those two just shouldn't exist together. You know what I mean? Just be one or the other, don't go just too far with it. And so, because of that, it's not really one that I want to revisit. But if I do go through the entire franchise again, it's something that I probably will have to revisit.

SPEAKER_03 59:02

I definitely don't want to revisit this. I complain a lot about flashbacks being lazy, but there are ways to do it correctly. Like The Sinner, for instance. If you're gonna use a flashback, save it for the very end, do it in a really impactful way. But to give us the entire backstory of a character through flashbacks in a film, it's just not a good look. So, yeah, you know what? Maybe I'd watch this again. If somebody went through the entire franchise and cut up everything and put it all into chronological order, maybe then I would watch it again.

SPEAKER_01 59:32

That would be very interesting. And I feel like somebody's probably already done that. And if you haven't, please, listeners, get to it. Like what seriously, send us the YouTube link. Yeah, exactly. I think y'all have made very valid points as to why you don't want to rewatch this film. And listen, it's not at the top of my list of Saw movies I'm gonna re-watch soon, but it is a solid one, and I think I wouldn't be mad at revisiting it at any time.

SPEAKER_00 59:55

We'll see what happens if a supercut does emerge and we can get some redeemable bits out of this movie, aside from Jigsaw's pieces. Now I'm sure it won't take another 200 episodes to get to Saw 5, but for now, there you have it, folks. Saw 4 has earned three hacks and one slash. We certainly had a robust discussion here, but it doesn't end here by any means.

SPEAKER_04 1:00:16

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SPEAKER_03 1:00:29

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SPEAKER_00 1:00:39

We'll see you next time, folks, and remember, time is an illusion.

SPEAKER_04 1:00:43

I don't want to play anymore.